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Goo Punch

Give me your top 10 NBA players of all time

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4 hours ago, aggie08 said:

No shit. I don't much care who had the most cherry-picked dunks in a given year's All-Star game. Hell, even All-Star appearances are watered down. Kobe's last 3 selections were on name recognition only (he was voted an All-Star for a season in which he played 6 games). You can certainly make the argument that Duncan's last 3 All-Star selections were on reputation more than merit as well.

Both TD and Kobe made 15 All-NBA teams. Those are the selections that matter.

Magic made an All-Star team when he wasn't even active. All-Star stats are bs.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Goo Punch said:

Here's Dirk "being great" and "leading his team to the title" as Drew claims:

Game 6 win- 9/27 FG, 1/7 3P, 2/2 FT, 21 pts, 11 reb, 1 ast, and a -4 +/-. He had a big 4Q which is essentially where he did all of his damage, but the Mavs wouldn't have even been in the game if it weren't for the play of Marion, Kidd, Barrea, and particularly Jason Terry who went 11/16 from the field and dropped 27 points. 

 

so he missed 2/3 of his shots, missed 7/8 3P, only got to the line once, and had a negative +/-, but yeah, only a "Dirk basher" wouldn't describe that as "great". get the fuck out of here. 

You claimed that Jason Kidd's shooting "played just as big a factor as anything Dirk did during the Finals". He took 6 shots/gm and averaged 7.7 pts/gm. His usg rate was 13%. Dirk's was 33%. To say his shooting meaningfully contributed to their success in that series as much as Dirk's is either a Simple Jack level take or dipping your toe into the "bashing" waters. 

Dirk did not have his best series (you mysteriously omitted 45/46 from the FT line). He's also the player about whom Spo said "As a defense, you absolutely overreact to every situation he’s in -- or even that he’s not in -- and then you lose all sight of your team defensive rules.” 

Which leads to JKidd getting looks like this:

giphy.gif

It's as if Miami (a very good defensive team) came up with a defensive gameplan and, to the benefit of Dirk's teammates,  put considerable focus on stopping 41. Hitting the shot is important. Being the player whose offensive gravity is probably greater than any player in 21st century this side of Steph Curry is a much rarer contribution matters a fuck of a lot more over the course of a series.

/End Dirk 2011 talk. Can start a separate thread to completely unnecessarily readjudicate the 2011 Mavs and their run to a title if necessary

 

 

 

Edited by TommyGufano

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2 minutes ago, TommyGufano said:

/End Dirk 2011 talk. Can start a separate thread if to completely unnecessarily readjudicate the 2011 Mavs and their run to a title if necessary

Especially since we've done it already on this forum very, very recently. 

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We do it every time Derka takes an uncalled for run at Dirk specifically.

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Posted (edited)

lol ok. i stated that he was merely fine in the Finals and you went apoplectic. "whenever derka takes an uncalled for run at Dirk." lol jesus. what the fuck are you even talking about dude. are you 11 or something? you are being hypersensitive and sensationalist over absolutely nothing. grow up.

how many tens of thousands of posts have i made on the hoops forums of HF, shaggy, and surly? 50,000? 60,000? more? and how many of them have been critical of Dirk Nowitzki? like 7? and what's the worst thing that i ever said about him? that Luka is better at basketball than Dirk was? that Dirk was merely aight in the 2011 Finals? That he's a borderline top 20 all time player? That's it?! That's everything that's ever happened that has you going completely off the rails about some supposed history of me maliciously attacking Dirk out of nowhere? fuck out of here with this dramatic ass nonsense.

Edited by Goo Punch

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Anyone that thinks Duncan was better than Kobe doesn’t know basketball 


Worst post of 2020....so far. Congrats loser.

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I think the general feeling toward Shaq in this discussion is interesting. It seems that some ppl get so fixated on what he wasn't (and I understand that we're splitting hairs when discussing the top-10 in the history of the sport) that his utter dominance is kind of hand waved. I guess it's understandable that there isn't a ton of warm and fuzzy feelings about him since it's a discussion mostly among fans of Texas teams, but that fucking guy was such a problem. I haven't actually put a list down yet, but LeBron is the only post-MJ great that I would for certain have on top of him.
edit for precision: prolly 1/2 his prime was concurrent with MJ, but given that all titles came post-Bulls MJ, I think that probably still the correct bucket to throw him in.
 
 


I hated Shaq because a significant portion of his offensive game was simply pushing the defender out of the way.

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1 minute ago, Dbeasy said:

 


I hated Shaq because a significant portion of his offensive game was simply pushing the defender out of the way.

 

Sure. But this isn't the name your 10 favorite nba players of all-time thread

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5 minutes ago, Dbeasy said:

 


Worst post of 2020....so far. Congrats loser.

 

and it's not like Timmy wasn't unreal from the jump. remember when Kobe was in his second year and he famously kept shooting air balls in clutch moments as his Lakers got beat? here's what Timmay was doing in his second year:

TD 1999 NBA Finals stats:

27.4 pts, 14.0 reb, 2.2 blk, 2.4 ast, 2.8 OREB, shooting .537 from the field and .795 from the line. that's uh, pretty good. 

oh yeah, he then got better. 

TD 2003 NBA Finals stats:

24.2 pts, 17.0 reb, 5.3 ast, 5.3 blk, 3.8 OREB, 1.0 stl. good lord. 

last time I checked I don't think Kobe ever approached doing that in the Finals. 

also LMAO at Drew claiming that what Dirk did in the 2011 Finals is on par with all of ^^^^^ that.

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In that video above, I thought they were doubling Jason Terry away from the ball( WTF?) but it looks more like LeBron is just caught with his pants around his ankles.  Holy hell that is terribad defense.  He's guarding nobody and killing their spacing.

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In an effort to veer this back somewhat to the original topic, below is the complete list of players that have at least 1 MVP, 1 Finals MVP and were selected to at least 10 All NBA teams.  Not perfect, but a pretty damn good list of post-1969 players. If you remove third team All NBA selections (added in 1988), only Hakeem and Dirk would be removed. Ranked in order of total MVPs and Finals MVPs.  

1. MJ (5 MVPs, 6 Finals MVPs, 11x All NBA)

2. Kareem (6, 2, 15)

3. Magic (3, 3, 10)

4. Wilt (4, 1, 10)

5. Bird (3, 2, 10)

6. Duncan (2, 3, 15)

7. LeBron (2, 3, 15)

8. Kobe (2, 2, 15)

9. Shaq (1, 3, 14)

10. Hakeem (1, 2, 12)

11. Dirk (1, 1, 12) 

 

Note: Durant has 9 All NBA selections, so will definitely be on this list in the near future. 

 

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Not going back through the thread but no love for Dr. J?  I know a lot of his greatness was in the ABA, think you throw that in the mix. 

My Top-9 with 1 WC: 

Kareem

MJ

LBJ

Magic

Bird

Pistol

Duncan

Hakeem

Dr.J

WC: Walt Frazier

 

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22 minutes ago, Reynolds Woodcock said:

In an effort to veer this back somewhat to the original topic, below is the complete list of players that have at least 1 MVP, 1 Finals MVP and were selected to at least 10 All NBA teams.  Not perfect, but a pretty damn good list of post-1969 players. If you remove third team All NBA selections (added in 1988), only Hakeem and Dirk would be removed. Ranked in order of total MVPs and Finals MVPs.  

1. MJ (5 MVPs, 6 Finals MVPs, 11x All NBA)

2. Kareem (6, 2, 15)

3. Magic (3, 3, 10)

4. Wilt (4, 1, 10)

5. Bird (3, 2, 10)

6. Duncan (2, 3, 15)

7. LeBron (2, 3, 15)

8. Kobe (2, 2, 15)

9. Shaq (1, 3, 14)

10. Hakeem (1, 2, 12)

11. Dirk (1, 1, 12) 

 

Note: Durant has 9 All NBA selections, so will definitely be on this list in the near future. 

 

appreciate the effort to re-focus thread. Think you need to review LeBron's MVP count

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3 minutes ago, TommyGufano said:

appreciate the effort to re-focus thread. Think you need to review LeBron's MVP count

Well shit. Too late to edit, but if corrected that would move LBJ to third on the list (which is closer to being accurate). 

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If you are just listing top players who "changed the game", I would have Steph Curry ahead of Dirk.

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Jordan

Lebron

Wilt

Bird

Magic

Kareem

Kobe

Duncan

West

Dream

 

Next 10:  Russell, K. Malone, Big O, Shaq, M. Malone, Elgin, Cousy, Dr. J, Barkley, Pettit 

 

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On 4/7/2020 at 1:35 AM, Goo Punch said:

fuck that noise. you aren't responsible for other people's reactions to what you post. the truth is that KM's personality and actions do matter. For example, if I had a baseball HOF vote I would never ever vote for Barry Bonds because he was an EPIC asshole during his career. Karl Malone's off-court happenings *are* relevant. Nobody wants to coronate a serial deadbeat dad and a rapist. Don't apologize or backtrack on bringing these things up during this discussion. it matters. 

Asshole hasn't got that much to do wIth it (SEE: Tye Cobb), and there are shit loads of major fucking assholes in baseball, basketball, and football. Its steroids that should keep that fucker out of the HOF.

If Rose can be kept out of the HOF for gambling (and he should be kept out) certain  criminal offenses should as well.

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14 hours ago, Dbeasy said:

 


Worst post of 2020....so far. Congrats loser.

 

Yep, Duncan was everything that was right with being a basketball star.   Kobe was a narcissistic, ball hog, with visions of grandeur even beyond his considerable talent, which was huge.

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On 4/8/2020 at 2:40 PM, A’Dam Psycho said:

A part of me dies every time somebody puts Duncan over Kobe

That's a shame.....

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2 hours ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

That's a shame.....

I’m surprised he’s not 100% dead at this point, because that seems to be the general consensus.

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On 4/8/2020 at 1:40 PM, A’Dam Psycho said:

A part of me dies every time somebody puts Duncan over Kobe

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11 minutes ago, Hate said:

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Unknown.jpeg

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Yep, Duncan was everything that was right with being a basketball star.   Kobe was a narcissistic, ball hog, with visions of grandeur even beyond his considerable talent, which was huge.

Lebron James is the only non PG with more career assists than Kobe. This is a narrative for low level thinkers. Kawhi Leonard is averaging 2 assists per game for his career just for reference 

Edited by A’Dam Psycho

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22 hours ago, Goo Punch said:

and it's not like Timmy wasn't unreal from the jump. remember when Kobe was in his second year and he famously kept shooting air balls in clutch moments as his Lakers got beat? here's what Timmay was doing in his second year:

TD 1999 NBA Finals stats:

27.4 pts, 14.0 reb, 2.2 blk, 2.4 ast, 2.8 OREB, shooting .537 from the field and .795 from the line. that's uh, pretty good. 

oh yeah, he then got better. 

TD 2003 NBA Finals stats:

24.2 pts, 17.0 reb, 5.3 ast, 5.3 blk, 3.8 OREB, 1.0 stl. good lord. 

last time I checked I don't think Kobe ever approached doing that in the Finals. 

also LMAO at Drew claiming that what Dirk did in the 2011 Finals is on par with all of ^^^^^ that.

You do realize Kobe is a shooting guard right? 

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22 hours ago, Dbeasy said:

 


I hated Shaq because a significant portion of his offensive game was simply pushing the defender out of the way.

 

Says I have the worst post of 2020 and then says this dumb shit. You should give up watching basketball bro

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44 minutes ago, A’Dam Psycho said:

You do realize Kobe is a shooting guard right? 

nope, never knew that. 

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Lebron James is the only non PG with more career assists than Kobe. This is a narrative for low level thinkers. Kawhi Leonard is averaging 2 assists per game for his career just for reference 
Kobe finished #3 all-time in career usage. He had a lot of assists because he ALWAYS dominated the ball. He is sandwiched on the all-time usage list between Russell Westbrook and Allen Iverson and just ahead of DeMarcus Cousins.

Wilt Chamberlain once led the NBA in assists. He was still selfish AF as a player.

Kawhi had a top-10 usage last year (only 2nd time in his career) and guess what, he averaged 5 assists per game.

Bottom line: Assists are a terrible measure of a player's unselfishness.

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On 4/6/2020 at 10:09 PM, FondrenRoad said:

Y'all are all sleeping on the Doctor.  Duncan is definitely a top 10 player.

Take Russell, Kobe, and Oscar out. Put in Dr J, Duncan, and Shaq.

Russell was great but he played on an all star team. Bill Cartwright would have wrecked him if both were in their prime at the same time.

Kobe is overrated.  His ball hogging often cost them more than it helped. His best skill was forcing himself onto the Lakers and then also forcing them to stack up other talent. 

Duncan is a top 5 big man of all time.  So what if he isn't flashy. Dr. J invented the modern small forward and shooting guard really. Shaq was simply an unstoppable beast. Even when he got more "talented", he still wasnt all that talented, but he was still top 10 all time unstoppable.  Still, Hakeem, Wilt, and Kareem were all better individual players than Duncan and Shaq so I suppose they are easy to overlook.

Oscar deserves to be in, but I would have him at 11. Its a toss up between him and Dr J actually. 

Pretty much agree with all of your post except for the bolded part. iMO, you went so far off the rails there the tracks rusted.

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9 hours ago, HookEm said:

Kobe finished #3 all-time in career usage. He had a lot of assists because he ALWAYS dominated the ball. He is sandwiched on the all-time usage list between Russell Westbrook and Allen Iverson and just ahead of DeMarcus Cousins.

Wilt Chamberlain once led the NBA in assists. He was still selfish AF as a player.

Kawhi had a top-10 usage last year (only 2nd time in his career) and guess what, he averaged 5 assists per game.

Bottom line: Assists are a terrible measure of a player's unselfishness.

There ya go. If ya have the ball most of the time it stands to reason you'll have a high assist %.  He missed a lot of late game shots where he should've given up the ball, BUT HE WAS KOBE .........DAMMIT !!!

 

My memory is foggy, but was it Kobe or Shaq that caused Shaq leave LA ?

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Posted (edited)

yeah Bill Cartwright is definitely dominating this guy:

i also like how pointing out that he was best and most important player on what was essentially an all star team is somehow a knock against him. 🤦🏼‍♂️ 

Edited by Goo Punch

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17 minutes ago, Goo Punch said:

yeah Bill Cartwright is definitely dominating this guy:

i also like how pointing out that he was best and most important player on what was essentially an all star team is somehow a knock against him. 🤦🏼‍♂️ 

I think you're going to find that several of his finals showings were "just aight" if you go game-by-game. Particularly after your normalize rebounding rate for the insane number of shots that ppl were getting up in that era.

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4 hours ago, TommyGufano said:

I think you're going to find that several of his finals showings were "just aight" if you go game-by-game. Particularly after your normalize rebounding rate for the insane number of shots that ppl were getting up in that era.

Probably a little unfair to penalize a guy for the era he played in.  Yes, you need to be cognizant of when a player played and the type of play the NBA promoted and the Celtics were the original run and gun team but the guy averaged almost 25 rpg in the Finals, edging out Wilt.  It'd be different if his stats were just on par with his contemporaries, but they were elite.  On a total rebound basis (not a big fan of total stats), he doubled Wilt up and has KAJ by more than 1200 rebounds in the Finals.  That's fucking insane when you think about Kareem made it to 10 finals.  Even if you normalize minutes and rebound rate, he probably still averaged around 16+ rebounds per game.  But why would we want to do that?  Think about the stamina these dudes had, particularly Wilt and Bill, to play basically every minute (averaged 45 minutes per game) of every game in the playoffs.  It's insane when you think about it and as noted, it wasn't because they were walking the ball up the court, the pace was faster than today.  

Now, if one is going to criticize Russell, it would be his lack of skill on the offensive end which he was basically Dennis Rodman on steroids.  He was incredibly athletic and if he played in today's game, he'd be a great PNR, pick and dive guy sort of like Capela, except better but lacked a refined offensive stack.  Add in his blocked shot prowess (which wasn't tracked but estimated to be about 6-8 game) and leadership qualities and you have a definite all-timer.  I hate trying to rank guys like Russell or Wilt or Baylor.  The game is so foreign to what we have now, but let's not short the guy and give him a BS comp (I know it wasn't you) like Cartwright.  That's a bit insulting.  How about Dennis Rodman's athleticism and rebound prowess, prime Ben Wallace's defensive play, Shawn Kemp's offensive game, and Tim Duncan's leadership qualities.  That's a pretty decent player.  

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7 minutes ago, Patrick Bateman said:

Probably a little unfair to penalize a guy for the era he played in.  Yes, you need to be cognizant of when a player played and the type of play the NBA promoted and the Celtics were the original run and gun team but the guy averaged almost 25 rpg in the Finals, edging out Wilt.  It'd be different if his stats were just on par with his contemporaries, but they were elite.  On a total rebound basis (not a big fan of total stats), he doubled Wilt up and has KAJ by more than 1200 rebounds in the Finals.  That's fucking insane when you think about Kareem made it to 10 finals.  Even if you normalize minutes and rebound rate, he probably still averaged around 16+ rebounds per game.  But why would we want to do that?  Think about the stamina these dudes had, particularly Wilt and Bill, to play basically every minute (averaged 45 minutes per game) of every game in the playoffs.  It's insane when you think about it and as noted, it wasn't because they were walking the ball up the court, the pace was faster than today.  

Now, if one is going to criticize Russell, it would be his lack of skill on the offensive end which he was basically Dennis Rodman on steroids.  He was incredibly athletic and if he played in today's game, he'd be a great PNR, pick and dive guy sort of like Capela, except better but lacked a refined offensive stack.  Add in his blocked shot prowess (which wasn't tracked but estimated to be about 6-8 game) and leadership qualities and you have a definite all-timer.  I hate trying to rank guys like Russell or Wilt or Baylor.  The game is so foreign to what we have now, but let's not short the guy and give him a BS comp (I know it wasn't you) like Cartwright.  That's a bit insulting.  How about Dennis Rodman's athleticism and rebound prowess, prime Ben Wallace's defensive play, Shawn Kemp's offensive game, and Tim Duncan's leadership qualities.  That's a pretty decent player.  

I mean... there's a lot in here. I was just saying the initial reaction of "holy shit, he had 39 rebounds in this game in 1959!" sort of fades when you notice his team totaled 97 rebounds in the game and he played 40 mins. It's still very good. It's just not in any way worth comparing to rebounding numbers in today's game.

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Why does nobody mention Moses Malone? #3 in career rebounds, #9 in points, #1 in offensive boards, top-25 in blocks, 3-time MVP, Finals MVP.

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That's a great question for which I do not have an answer.  Maybe because he only won one title?  Most every list is made of players that had at least two titles.  That doesn't change the fact the Moses Malone was a great player. 

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First guy to go straight to the pros from HS. Saw him a few times when he played his HS ball.  What a machine a he was !

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, HookEm said:

Why does nobody mention Moses Malone? #3 in career rebounds, #9 in points, #1 in offensive boards, top-25 in blocks, 3-time MVP, Finals MVP.

Great question.  I'm going to guess because he did most of his damage first in the ABA and then with Houston.  But at ages 27-29, he was the best player (over Dr J) on some championship level squads for the Sixers.  After the Philly run, he sort of became a vagabond, who some think put up empty numbers on meh teams.  I don't think he's in the top 10 but definitely has a case for the top 25.

 

Edited by Patrick Bateman

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3 hours ago, Patrick Bateman said:

Great question.  I'm going to guess because he did most of his damage first in the ABA and then with Houston.  But at ages 27-29, he was the best player (over Dr J) on some championship level squads for the Sixers.  After the Philly run, he sort of became a vagabond, who some think put up empty numbers on meh teams.  I don't think he's in the top 10 but definitely has a case for the top 25.

 

He spent 2 seasons in the ABA so that didn't take away a whole lot from his NBA playing time. He was a more efficient shooter in the ABA, but he had his best all around seasons in Houston and was a beast.  At Philly, he settled into his 100 year career plan after 1983. 

I would put him in the 15 to 20 range.  Clearly an all time great, but he arguably padded the hell out of his offensive rebounding stats and you see that reflected in his FG%.  A career .495 would put him at 21 for centers in the 2018-2019 NBA.  

Overall, the era he played in isn't valued as highly in these lists as the mid 80s-2000 era or the 60s era.  Why that is, I can't say. 

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2 hours ago, FondrenRoad said:

He spent 2 seasons in the ABA so that didn't take away a whole lot from his NBA playing time. He was a more efficient shooter in the ABA, but he had his best all around seasons in Houston and was a beast.  At Philly, he settled into his 100 year career plan after 1983. 

I would put him in the 15 to 20 range.  Clearly an all time great, but he arguably padded the hell out of his offensive rebounding stats and you see that reflected in his FG%.  A career .495 would put him at 21 for centers in the 2018-2019 NBA.  

Overall, the era he played in isn't valued as highly in these lists as the mid 80s-2000 era or the 60s era.  Why that is, I can't say. 

IIRC, when reviewing and reading about his career, he got farther away from the basket as he got older.  Shot a lot of 15-18 foot jumpers in Washington and ATL, but Mo had beastly numbers especially in Houston.  Only 1 championship probably keeps his visibility low and again, playing for 10 organizations (Philly twice) gives the impression he was a gun for hire, maybe unfairly.  Same can be said for Dr J. or Rick Barry about guys who've slid a bit from the 70/80's.

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22 hours ago, HookEm said:

Why does nobody mention Moses Malone? #3 in career rebounds, #9 in points, #1 in offensive boards, top-25 in blocks, 3-time MVP, Finals MVP.

He was in my second 10.  

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Posted (edited)
On 4/12/2020 at 3:30 PM, FondrenRoad said:

He spent 2 seasons in the ABA so that didn't take away a whole lot from his NBA playing time. He was a more efficient shooter in the ABA, but he had his best all around seasons in Houston and was a beast.  At Philly, he settled into his 100 year career plan after 1983. 

I would put him in the 15 to 20 range.  Clearly an all time great, but he arguably padded the hell out of his offensive rebounding stats and you see that reflected in his FG%.  A career .495 would put him at 21 for centers in the 2018-2019 NBA.  

Overall, the era he played in isn't valued as highly in these lists as the mid 80s-2000 era or the 60s era.  Why that is, I can't say. 

Not arguing, but asking-  how can one 'pad ' their offensive rebounding stats and have a decent FG%? It's 2 points below Dream, and Malone still had to get the rebounds, it's not like it was just a lob off the backboard every play...the other team was still trying, right?

 

Edited by Iceman

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Posted (edited)

I wish they'd have replaced Stockton with Steph. That would have made it especially tough for me to decide. 

Edited by Goo Punch

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22 minutes ago, Goo Punch said:

I wish they'd have replaced Stockton with Steph. That would have made it especially tough for me to decide. 

If they switched Dirk and Tim, the teams would make more sense. 

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The top team wins because Stockton can’t guard any of them.

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1. MJ

2. Wilt

3. LBJ

4. Kareem

5. Russell

6. Bird

7. Magic

8. Kobe

9. Duncan

10. Shaq

Last 3 in my mind are very interchangeable with guys like Baylor, Malone, Malone, Oscar, Dr. J, Hakeem, etc. Not much difference here. Recency bias, championships and MVPs make the difference. Top 7, in some order, should be unassailable. Bottom 3 could be replaced by, in order, Curry, Durant, Leonard, Harden, Greek Freek, but I see only the first three being able to do that. 

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6 minutes ago, Hate said:

The top team wins because Stockton can’t guard any of them.

that's exactly what i felt. he's the only guy who can't guard anybody. at least with Steph he himself is pretty unguardable.

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that bottom 5 has 3 defensive liabilities, and 2 of those shooters are never going to get the ball.  LOLz.

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