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ROFL BOX

General Scouting Thread - BSA + GSA

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8 hours ago, ROFL BOX said:

How old is she (daughter, not Mike's Mom)?

Turning 4 this year.  Our son will be 8 next year, and we are still working out logistics of whether we could both do some of the training while he does Scout stuff.  We've seen conflicting info on whether we would both be able to, or whether one of us would be riding herd on him for part of the day, etc.

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Are y'all gonna be a "family Pack" or stay gender separated?

IMO, in maybe 5 years all Packs will be 100% inclusive... so that decision will be moot.

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On 9/12/2019 at 9:46 AM, ROFL BOX said:

Are y'all gonna be a "family Pack" or stay gender separated?

IMO, in maybe 5 years all Packs will be 100% inclusive... so that decision will be moot.

We have a few girls in our pack, and we are trying to get more - girls seem to do a better job of getting their friends to join.  

Plus, let’s not kid ourselves, it’s a helluva lot easier to get kids into the pack if sisters can join along with their brothers.  Wife and I have no desire to try and keep up with both Cub Scouts/Boy Scouts and Daisies/Brownies/Girl Scouts.  My sister always had to tag along when I was a Cub Scout, and I had to do so as well when she was in Brownies   

 Being able to bring the girls in makes everything a lot easier on families.  

But it is hard to recruit girls if they don’t have brothers - they might as well stick to GS, unless dad was a CS/BS and/or they like camping more.  

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I think we will see some church-sponsored packs/troops pushing back on the girl thing.  Some already have.   So that will be interesting to see play out.   They were already pissed about some of the other changes.   

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How are you all handling your Lions, since they don’t have as many adventures laid out?  Some packs are doing them over a half-year, like starting November or December, to ease them into it.  

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On 9/13/2019 at 9:59 PM, atomheartbevo said:

I think we will see some church-sponsored packs/troops pushing back on the girl thing.  Some already have.   So that will be interesting to see play out.   They were already pissed about some of the other changes.   

I don't know how the C.O. addressed it; the Pack said "no" (for now,  anyhow) for a 2nd possible year, so there is no info available to me on how the C.O. would respond if given the opportunity.

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For those who have done Philmont- is it possible to only do part of it (as an adult)?  I want to join my son next summer for it, but I can't do the whole 12 days.  I could probably do 5-7 days.  But my understanding is it is a big loop out and away from the base so no real way to parachute in or out from it, unless I'm mistaken.

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I don't think that doing only part of a Philmont trek is doable. Like you said, it is generally a loop and there isn't any transportation available to return to base camp (besides your legs) once you are on trek.  Also, there would have to be at least two other adults left on your trek if you were to depart, due to youth protection rules.

Since you have almost a year to prepare, do whatever you can to go the full trek.  Doing Philmont with my son was one of the top Dad events I have experienced, and you won't regret it.

Edited by Native Horn
grammer

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2 hours ago, Native Horn said:

Since you have almost a year to prepare, do whatever you can to go the full trek.  Doing Philmont with my son was one of the top Dad events I have experienced, and you won't regret it.

Seconded, for myself.

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3 hours ago, ROFL BOX said:

His issue may be available days, not ability.
 

Indeed.  I wish they were doing the 7 day trek, but our troop has historically always done the 12 day.

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On 9/17/2019 at 4:28 PM, Sbbruin said:

But my understanding is it is a big loop out and away from the base so no real way to parachute in or out from it, unless I'm mistaken.

Actually, there's probably plenty of pilots in New Mexico who would allow you to exit their planes wearing a parachute.  Just make sure you're in shape and experienced, and don't break an ankle on landing, because you will end up educating your son's troop on the finer points of "leave no man behind, unless he's dumb enough to parachute in and break an ankle 40 miles away from civilization". 

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1 hour ago, atomheartbevo said:

Actually, there's probably plenty of pilots in New Mexico who would allow you to exit their planes wearing a parachute.  Just make sure you're in shape and experienced, and don't break an ankle on landing, because you will end up educating your son's troop on the finer points of "leave no man behind, unless he's dumb enough to parachute in and break an ankle 40 miles away from civilization". 

To be clear, "parachuting in" was a figure of speech. 

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6 hours ago, Sbbruin said:

To be clear, "parachuting in" was a figure of speech. 

To be fair, it's Surly.  And a scouting thread.  If somebody is going to be literal about it, this would be the place.

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Probably too late, but for those of you camping this weekend, get a small telescope or good binoculars with a tripod, and help some of the kids knock out the astronomy belt loops - pretty easy requirements for the younger kids, and looks like fairly clear skies in the area.  

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We could see the stars at Lake Bastrop last night. Nobody brought a telescope. It was a disgusting 95% humidity. Made for great sleeping.

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I’ll post up PDFs of both of the itineraries we did in 2015 (Trek 7) and 2017 (Trek 13) tomorrow when I’m on a computer.

In 2015 we had all 15 yo’s and we chose a 64 mile trek that went up Rayado canyon from Toothache springs to Carsen Meadows, Fish Camp, 2 days at Apache Springs, trail camp at Wild Horse, dry camp on top of Mt Philips, reloading and shooting at Sawmill, climbing at Cimarroncito, dry camp at Ponderosa Park and walk out through Tooth Of Time Ridge the last day.

I really enjoyed this itinerary a lot and canyon along Rayado creek is amazing. It rained for the first 4 days and finally broke while we were at Apache Springs. There was plenty of water everywhere and it was relatively cool most of the trek. About the only thing we didn’t get to do was something like Cypher’s Mine


In 2017, we had mixed ages 14-17. Our trek that year was mostly in the North Zone.

We started at Cathederal Rock, toured Hunting Lodge on the way to Cimarroncito for climbing, then onto Hawkeye and Upper Dean Cow. 2 nights at Miranda and we summitted Baldy. Flume Canyon, Ponil, Metcalf Station and House Canyon were the last days. After Miranda, we crossed over into the area burned in Ponil Complex fire. No shade made it a lot hotter in those areas but we really enjoyed the lumberjack activities at Flume Canyon and railroading at Metcalf Station





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I worked at Philmont as a cavalcade wrangler for four years in the ‘80’s and don’t recognize half of those camps. Things have changed a lot since them. I read recently that BSA just put it up as collateral or something.

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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, BottleRocket said:

I worked at Philmont as a cavalcade wrangler for four years in the ‘80’s and don’t recognize half of those camps. Things have changed a lot since them. I read recently that BSA just put it up as collateral or something.

https://www.sltrib.com/news/nation-world/2019/11/22/boy-scouts-mortgage-vast/

 

interesting read but heavily biased / anti lbgt https://world.wng.org/2020/01/a_long_slide

Edited by tx 3 putt

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In 2017, we had mixed ages 14-17.


I have heard that any Philmont trek is a beating for 14 year olds.

What's your take?

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk

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We had 3x 14, 1x 16 and 2x 17 on last Trek. 2 of the 14 yo had their dads on the trek. One was an athlete and was fine (he did Rayado in ‘19, 223 miles in 21 days) and the other was ok. The 3rd is probably the most upbeat kid I’ve ever met and never was without a smile on his face or willingness to help out with whatever.

 

That said, an all 14yo crew could be tough unless you have a great leader among them who understands what needs to be done and how to get his crew working as a team.

 

As to the trek itself, both years for us, the kids faired much better than the dads (and 1 mom) in the hikes. We did a lot of training as a crew including at least 3 2-night weekend shakedown trips. We also had a weekly training session where we walked 5-6 miles in about 90 minutes, progressing to full packs the last few weeks before stepping off.

 

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On 9/19/2019 at 8:52 AM, atomheartbevo said:

Actually, there's probably plenty of pilots in New Mexico who would allow you to exit their planes wearing a parachute.  Just make sure you're in shape and experienced, and don't break an ankle on landing, because you will end up educating your son's troop on the finer points of "leave no man behind, unless he's dumb enough to parachute in and break an ankle 40 miles away from civilization". 

fandango_pic_2_1050_591_81_s_c1.jpg

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8 hours ago, davidg said:

We had 3x 14, 1x 16 and 2x 17 on last Trek. 2 of the 14 yo had their dads on the trek. One was an athlete and was fine (he did Rayado in ‘19, 223 miles in 21 days) and the other was ok. The 3rd is probably the most upbeat kid I’ve ever met and never was without a smile on his face or willingness to help out with whatever.

 

That said, an all 14yo crew could be tough unless you have a great leader among them who understands what needs to be done and how to get his crew working as a team.

 

As to the trek itself, both years for us, the kids faired much better than the dads (and 1 mom) in the hikes. We did a lot of training as a crew including at least 3 2-night weekend shakedown trips. We also had a weekly training session where we walked 5-6 miles in about 90 minutes, progressing to full packs the last few weeks before stepping off.

 

Echo this.  Our trek in '14 had several 14 year-olds.  The kids fared much better than the adults.  Frickin' billy goats, gave zero f's.  It's all about the training, as davidg says.

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We are doing our first year in the cub scouts right now and I've got one in the Tiger den and one in the Webelos.  I got wrangled in to being the den leader for the Tigers and I've really enjoyed it even though I was never a scout myself.  We've knocked out all our requirements except for one so far.

Our derby is coming up in a few weeks and I'm neck deep in research and ideas trying to make sure my boys have a decent showing.  I have no experience with the track that our Pack uses, but I do think it is laser timed.  I'm planning on going with one wheel high and riding the rail.  I understand the weight placement and how time spent on polishing the axles and is probably the most valuable.  Any other tips from guys who have done this in the past? 

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We are doing our first year in the cub scouts right now and I've got one in the Tiger den and one in the Webelos.  I got wrangled in to being the den leader for the Tigers and I've really enjoyed it even though I was never a scout myself.  We've knocked out all our requirements except for one so far.
Our derby is coming up in a few weeks and I'm neck deep in research and ideas trying to make sure my boys have a decent showing.  I have no experience with the track that our Pack uses, but I do think it is laser timed.  I'm planning on going with one wheel high and riding the rail.  I understand the weight placement and how time spent on polishing the axles and is probably the most valuable.  Any other tips from guys who have done this in the past? 


Make sure your kids work on the car with you. Aside from that, have fun!

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And kudos for stepping up as a Den Leader. You’re going to have a real influence on young people’s lives.

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The boys have been involved in the learning process with me already and they are going to do all the sanding and painting for sure.  I do have to remind myself that this is their deal though - I've gone a bit overboard on supplies already, but that's the way I typically do everything.

There are only 3 boys in our Den, so it's been a pretty easy adjustment for me.  The other two dads are really involved as well and we've become friends through the process too.  I strongly encouraged them to participate in our skit during camp out and the Scoutmaster told me that it was the first time every dad participated with their sons during a skit.  I'm surprised to see how many Moms are the parent participating with their boys.

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On 1/7/2020 at 3:53 PM, Sbbruin said:

Anybody have recommendations for different Philmont treks/itineraries?  The troop is supposed to select it in the next few days.

https://www.philmontscoutranch.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/2020ItineraryGuidebookWeb.pdf

 

We did a 7 day trek this past summer.  Covered 50 miles in 6 days on the trail, plan on a solid 20% more than the itinerary with route changes, food resupply, etc.. Our longest day was 15 miles because of a route mix up.  The boys weren't lost but one ranger told them they should hit a certain camp in the morning before going up Baldy but when we got there the Rangers at that camp said it could only be done after coming down from Baldy, so we had some major backtracking that day.  The boys took it in stride.  We also caught some rain and a little hail that day, good times.

The highlight of our trek was definitely climbing Baldy.  It's high, it's a very long day, and it's very steep at the end.  But they set it up as a day hike so you don't have packs that day, just lunch, water, and jackets.  I can't imagine doing a trek that doesn't include either Baldy or Tooth of Time.

Muzzle loading rifles were also a big hit at Miranda and the challenge course at Head of Dean was also great.  Team building exercises.

We had two 16 year olds, two 15 year olds, and four 14 year olds.  The younger kids were just fine.  No issues whatsoever.  Have a strong personality for the crew leader (it should go without saying here but I'm talking about the scout leader, not the adult leader).  The crew leader will be heavily relied on for decision making and delegating tons of tasks.  He needs to be someone the whole crew will listen to. 

The rangers at Philmont will teach them everything they need to know.  The packing, the navigating, camp set up, cooking, bear bags, etc...  It's good to have seen all that a time or two before you go but if your troop is like ours all the kids have crazy schedules with sports and other extra curriculars and the shakedowns and long hikes you have planned won't always come to fruition.  We had one kid who didn't show up to a single training hike at all.  He's an athletic kid and ended up hiking stronger than the older kids who were more prepared.  Your pre-trek planning won't always work out, don't sweat it.  Just show up with the right gear and the ranger will teach them everything all over again anyway.  

The adults in the crew should be damn near invisible.  I had to fight the urge to make the trip into a bonding experience with my son.  It's not about that.  There will be plenty of shared memories made but it really should be the pinnacle of the boy-led experience.  The rangers are adamant that the adults be strictly in the background and shouldn't be involved in any decisions, navigating, or planning on the trail unless lives are about to be in danger.  If they get lost, let them.  If they move slow and leave camp late, let them.  When your kid asks you a question the answer is always, "Go ask your crew leader."   We kept a grown up map and the scout navigator for that day kept a separate map.  We always hiked at the rear 20-30 yards behind the scouts and kept our navigation ideas and observations to ourselves.  Our scouts, who showed up less prepared than we hoped, did just fine.  A couple of backtracks but never truly lost.  

Edited by Your Mom

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9 hours ago, Your Mom said:

Words, words, words

Great post.  If I was to ever do Philmont with Monster, I'd have to seriously get my body in shape.  I'm not fat, but I'm also limited on my core strength.

I can haz Calvalcade to the top of Tooth, pleze?

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Back in my day, 14 was probably the normal age for Philmont.  A lot of us got our Eagle as early as possible and took the glide slope toward out, so Philmont was one of the last things we did.

Unfortunately, for reasons I don't recall, my troop didn't make treks during my last couple of years in Scouts.  One of the reasons was a Jamboree, and our troop made it a point to take as much of the troop as possible.

I wouldn't worry about the physical aspect so much as the grabasstic aspect, as far as age is concerned.  By 14, Scouts in most of our local troops had been at least Assistant Patrol Leader if not Patrol Leader, so that wasn't much of an issue.  I am, of course, talking about at least semi-dedicated Scouts.

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I just looked again @ the thread title... "BSA + GSA".  2 things:

1.  Shoulda been "Scouts BSA"... but then I don't think the new name had been released as of the start of this thred.

2.  There is "GSA" in the title.

2a.  We gots us some COOKIE SALES coming up shortly.  My daughter hasn't stated her goals yet; was over 10,000 boxes these last 2 cycles.

What's your deal, man?

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Edit to post above:

She sold 1,517 boxes last year.

Stretch goal is 2,000 for the 2020 campaign.

If anyone wants to do an online order or you're in the ATX, I'm happy to assist.  Send a PM for the online ordering link.

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That 1st pic reminds me so much of my pack trip into the Weimanuche coming onto 20 years ago this June.

& The 2nd pic, that's a stout looking feller with a short wheelbase.  Looks like he could pull a stump.

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Here it is almost 1 hour past midnight CST & the news pages I've seen on FB (every single one of them) are blaming this on LDS leaving, girls joining... say "we" should sell more cookies... buncha idiots.  Then again, that's humanity for ya.

Obviously nobody reasonable wanted ANYONE to suffer abuse.  That's horrible.  & YES, BSA did a quite shitty job of addressing this issue.  But that's also the case for the Vatican / Catholic church, schools, sports organizations, ANY youth pastor, the military, daycares, police / fire / emergency responders... i.e. any group where someone could be vulnerable to someone in a position of authority.

 

https://www.bsarestructuring.org/?fbclid=IwAR1W0V_I59fWwPrIdN71oIHiw3O72blFGf5r_J5bi1D0mcIl_IjNcf-7YxU

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So BSA files for bankruptcy.  Between what will likely be massive settlements and the ever dwindling participation levels, scouting could take a 10 count.  My guess is they get through, but it will be forever changed.  The stigma is the thing that is going to suck and is really unfair to the vast vast vast majority of leaders who have sacrificed countless hours to mold young boys into men of character.  My now 16 y.o. Life Scout is certainly a better person for the experience. And he would be the first to tell you that.

The Greater LA Area Council and the Rose Bowl District are financially independent from the national BSA Council, so we may not be as heavily impacted.  But I sure hope it doesn't hurt participation numbers.  Kids need to get their asses outdoors now more than ever. 

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On 9/30/2018 at 5:16 AM, ROFL BOX said:

Swimming, has a "blob" (I didn't take this pic; it was on the web but is the same as what they have @ this facility)

 

They also have this insane "mine" area & it's where they dug out Caliche to make roads for the facility.  The mine area is where the kids did their Nerf battle & inside  it, there's a ropes course & the Scouts had a great time with that as well.

Love that blob. We had to align ourselves just so because there is a weight differential between the blobber and the blobee, like 50# or something, but we made it work.

Did you get a chance to go into the underground mine? It's built out of a few storage containers connected together and divided into levels. Pitch fucking black if done right. I'm generally blind without my glasses, so that thing is my jam. Throw glasses into case in backpack and leave up on land and away I go like a blind mole. Probably my most favorite thing out there.

Zip 3000 - hot damn. 3000' straight run zip line. Gotta carry that carriage all the way up from the bottom and if it touches dirt.. you and 2 other people are out. We always told the kids make your decision now at the bottom because I am not walking back down that hill, the only way I am getting down is strapped to a cable.

At the top of one of their hills is the only place that we ever found cell signal. There's also a stock tank up there which is perfect for a swim after hiking up there.

And my last remembrance, we did the rappelling. To get to the start, you kinda inch out on this cliff and then sit there contemplating death while they give you instructions. I always wear Teva's out there and all of a sudden there was this whiff like wtf died up in here. It was my feet that decided to sweat and go as funky as possible. Apparently when I am most freaked out, that's what happens.

 

 

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So BSA files for bankruptcy.  Between what will likely be massive settlements and the ever dwindling participation levels, scouting could take a 10 count.  My guess is they get through, but it will be forever changed.  The stigma is the thing that is going to suck and is really unfair to the vast vast vast majority of leaders who have sacrificed countless hours to mold young boys into men of character.  My now 16 y.o. Life Scout is certainly a better person for the experience. And he would be the first to tell you that.
The Greater LA Area Council and the Rose Bowl District are financially independent from the national BSA Council, so we may not be as heavily impacted.  But I sure hope it doesn't hurt participation numbers.  Kids need to get their asses outdoors now more than ever. 


I think Scouting will power through in some form or another. I don’t see any of our Cubs leaving due to this. We have a strong program that emphasizes adult training and all the current safety programs.

My bigger picture concern is whether the lawsuits that will stop being filed against National due to the bankruptcy will trickle down to the Council level. As I understand it, there hasn’t been a reported incident in our Council in 25 years, and even that immediately and publicly dealt with. But the Council up in Oregon that resulted in the $18M verdict? Who knows.

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The Greater LA Area Council and the Rose Bowl District are financially independent from the national BSA Council,

 

As are ALL Councils that I know of.

 

It is sort of like being a franchisee of the National Scouts BSA program.

 

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk

 

 

 

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Doing the Scout update at the PTA (sponsor (sponsor org) meeting tonight. I’ll be interested to see if this comes up at all.

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In this context, it's probably worthwhile to understand some aspects of bankruptcy.  Most people think that bankruptcy is needed or filed when an entity is insolvent, that is its liabilities exceed its assets.  And that's probably true here, especially considering the unknowable extent of liability for the sexual abuse claims.  But it doesn't inevitably follow that a company that files bankruptcy is insolvent.

Another aspect is that it imposes an order on the chaos of dozens, hundreds, or thousands of claims coming in through lawsuits filed at unpredictable times in unpredictable locales with unpredictable outcomes.  Now, most/all claimants will have to come through the bankruptcy court to establish liability and compensation.  This is less costly for both BSA and the claimants, in most or a lot of cases.

Finally, everyone thinks of bankruptcy as a way to stiff creditors or claimants, forcing them to take less than they're owed.  And that is true.  But without bankruptcy, it's first-come, first-served as far as payout is concerned.  Those that come later may get stiffed entirely, while the first claimants get paid dollar-for-dollar.  I don't think anyone would consider that fair.

Considering that tort compensation/damages have an element of arbitrariness, it's not grossly unfair to have all the claimants come to the table and divvy up the assets in an equitable manner.

So yeah, bankruptcy sucks for BSA.  It sucks for the victims.  But it's an attempt to spread out the suck so no one has to bear it all.

I would expect this to end by BSA forming some kind of pool or trust of funds through which victims can make claims for compensation.  That's going to strip their assets down close to nothing and they'll have to build up going forward.  It's a strain, but it probably beats most of the alternatives.

Edited by TwiceHorn

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On 2/19/2020 at 12:55 PM, Sbbruin said:

So BSA files for bankruptcy.  Between what will likely be massive settlements and the ever dwindling participation levels, scouting could take a 10 count.  My guess is they get through, but it will be forever changed.  The stigma is the thing that is going to suck and is really unfair to the vast vast vast majority of leaders who have sacrificed countless hours to mold young boys into men of character.  My now 16 y.o. Life Scout is certainly a better person for the experience. And he would be the first to tell you that.

The Greater LA Area Council and the Rose Bowl District are financially independent from the national BSA Council, so we may not be as heavily impacted.  But I sure hope it doesn't hurt participation numbers.  Kids need to get their asses outdoors now more than ever. 

Mortgaging Philmont to pay for settlements is mind boggling. 
 

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I received a notice from Philmont that our Summer 2020 trek would not be in jeopardy because of the bankruptcy.  The funny thing is that the email arrived before they announced they had filed for bankruptcy protection.

I did Philmont with my son last summer and had the time of my life. 

Going back there with my daughter this summer and I'm raring to go, right now.  I can't wait to get out of base-camp and on the trail.

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