Jump to content

Dallas Couple Custody Battle Over 6-yo Gender


Kyle

Recommended Posts

https://khn.org/morning-breakout/research-on-children-growing-out-of-gender-dysphoria-adds-layer-of-complexity-to-transgender-care/

 

Although research shows that up to 94 percent of children will "grow out" of their transgender identity, advocates say that those studies were flawed in the first place and shouldn't dictate how doctors care for young children who want to socially transition.

I like how it doesn't show how the research is flawed

Edited by workswithseed
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, workswithseed said:

https://khn.org/morning-breakout/research-on-children-growing-out-of-gender-dysphoria-adds-layer-of-complexity-to-transgender-care/

 

Although research shows that up to 94 percent of children will "grow out" of their transgender identity, advocates say that those studies were flawed in the first place and shouldn't dictate how doctors care for young children who want to socially transition.

I like how it doesn't show how the research is flawed

Wait. It does though. It does exactly that. The first article linked lays out several specific criticisms:

Quote

One reason many researchers believe it’s unnecessary to delay the social transition of a child is that they don’t think the research on desistance is valid. In other words, they think the number of children who "grow out of" their transgender identity has been vastly overblown.

This school of thought holds that because the criteria for a diagnosis of gender dysphoria (previously called gender identity disorder) was less stringent in the past, the earlier desistance studies included a large cohort of children who today would not be diagnosed with gender dysphoria, gay boys who may have been experimenting with different ways of expressing gender but who were never really transgender in the first place.

“The methodology of those studies is very flawed, because they didn't study gender identity,” said Diane Ehrensaft, director of mental health at UCSF’s Child and Adolescent Gender Clinic. “Those desistors were, a good majority of them, simply proto-gay boys whose parents were upset because they were boys wearing dresses. They were brought to the clinics because they weren't fitting gender norms.”

Quote

Some clinicians criticize this study, however, on methodological grounds, because the researchers defined anyone who did not return to their clinic as desisting. Fifty-two of the children classified as desistors or their parents did send back questionnaires showing the subjects' present lack of gender dysphoria. But 28 neither responded nor could be tracked down.

Quote

In addition, 38 of the 127 kids were originally designated “subthreshold” for gender identity disorder, meaning they did not fulfill all the criteria for meeting the official diagnosis.

This, according to Erica Anderson, a gender clinician at UCSF, makes the desistance findings even more suspect." [It] begs the question of whether these kids were actually divergent [in their gender identity] before the study selected them,” she said.

 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, workswithseed said:

I didn't see any of that of that on the website, or a link.

But it does show some downfalls in your quoted text which would bring criticism to it and should.

Weird. When I click the link you posted, it takes me to some sort of "summary" page or something, with links to two articles from KQED on childhood gender dysphoria, and a third mostly-unrelated article. *shrugs*

 

Anyway, a few things seem pretty clear to me on this:

  1. Some children who identify as transgender eventually want to "revert" back to the gender assigned at their birth later in life
  2. Anyone who says they know the percentages for #1, is probably full of shit right now.
  3. A shitload more research is needed on item #1
  4. These families are being forced to make massive, massive (I don't think "life or death" is too strong a phrase) decisions based on not a lot of great info
  5. There's a lot of fearmongering that happens regarding this issue and it doesn't help anyone at all
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 hours ago, hornian said:

I'm not an expert, I'm a lawyer, but I know people who are.

My understanding is that there is a large body of research that leans towards gender dysphoria that has more to do with levels of hormones (testosterone/estrogen) during various phases of gestation than with chromosomes. But there isn't a medical test, because it isn't actually diagnosable unless you are measuring a fetus develop. So that is really just a theory. 

The other thing is the "radical sex change" in your statement - that's not really a thing for a child, despite the fear mongering in this article.

Most likely, an endocrinologist will give a hormone blocker to an adolescent to delay the onset of puberty (and that depends on the child - sometime hormone blockers can be stared as young as 8 if the child has early onset puberty, but usually it is more in the range of 12-13 for boys), to allow more psychological development and further therapy/treatment to confirm the diagnoses when the child is older or no longer a child. Hormone blockers are 100% reversible. It's not chemical castration. It just delays the onset of puberty.

Hormone therapy (i.e. estrogen or testosterone) can begin once the diagnosis is more concrete, usually closer to 14-17. But even that often times waits until the child is older.

Surgery on a minor is not unheard of, if everyone in the medical team + parents agree that it's real, but most of the time surgery happens once the child is 18+ and has been on hormone therapy for several years, and the adult (at that time) makes a fully informed decision. I've actually never personally been involved in a case (and I've been involved with several in multiple parts of the state) where the child had surgery as a minor. In my limited personal experience, surgery has always been something that everyone (parents, medical professionals, the child, etc.) wanted to wait until the child was over 18 to make the decision for themselves. 

Again, no one is chemically castrating a 6 or 8 year old, or having gender reassignment surgery on a 6 or 8 year old. That is fear mongering. 

thanks for your informed opinion.  so the story may not be real, but if it were real, could one parent, in any situation, permanently alter the child if the other parent were opposed to it?  that’s legitimate fear.  could a crazy ex-wife legally  do something like that?  I think you’ve said that’s not the case.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, futureman said:

thanks for your informed opinion.  so the story may not be real, but if it were real, could one parent, in any situation, permanently alter the child if the other parent were opposed to it?  that’s legitimate fear.  could a crazy ex-wife legally  do something like that?  I think you’ve said that’s not the case.  

Mom wouldn’t get to make invasive medical decisions alone in most cases. If a dad is even average, he’s going to be a Joint Managing Conservator and have an equal say so about these types of decisions. 

But even if mom had the exclusive right to make invasive medical decisions in a court order because of something dad did in the past, she still would not be able to convince a pediatrician, and a psychiatrist, and an endrocrineologist, and a surgeon, and any other medical or mental health professional involved in these types of cases to give a child medically unnecessary treatment. 

This isn’t some elective procedure, it’s something that takes years and multiple different medical professionals to all agree is medically necessary- and like I’ve said before, the ultimate decision about surgery is made, the child is typically (not always,  but in my limited experience it has always been this way) a legal adult and neither mom of dad have any say so about the final decision.  

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

28 minutes ago, hornian said:

Mom wouldn’t get to make invasive medical decisions alone in most cases. If a dad is even average, he’s going to be a Joint Managing Conservator and have an equal say so about these types of decisions. 

What if dad self identifies as a mom. 

 

Im being flippant.  But not really. Not sure why we have such fixed ideas about the conventions of sex and gender applied to parental roles in terms of custody and parental decision making when it comes unconventional concepts of sex and gender identification in the offspring. 

Edited by Anastasis
Link to comment
Share on other sites

28 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

What if dad self identifies as a mom. 

 

Im being flippant.  But not really. Not sure why we have such fixed ideas about the conventions of sex and gender applied to parental roles in terms of custody and parental decision making when it comes unconventional concepts of sex and gender identification in the offspring. 

I’ve had at least one case where that happened - and the kids all identified as the gender they were born with. 

AIso, I was using it as a shorthand, and in response to the question posed about a “psycho mom.”

I’ve been involved in cases where the supportive parent (or the one who was “forcing” the kid, in the view of the other parent) was the mom, and I’ve been involved in cases where it was the dad. But most everyone here kneejerks into assuming it’s a mom who wants to turn their son into a girl, because that’s the stereotype. 

I will say that I’ve represented more same-sex couples (or ex couples, depending on circumstances of the case) than most family law attorneys as that’s what my firm is known for, and gender dysphoria in the kiddos has never been an issue for a dingle one of those cases in my decade-ish of experience. All of the gender identity cases I’ve personally been involved with have been with a dad and a mom, not two dads or two moms. Which kind of goes to show, in my opinion, that there’s not some giant LGBT conspiracy to turn kids trans (which hasn’t been said in this thread, but there’s a lot of tinfoil type conspiracy theories that I’ve come across in my work that spout that narrative).

 

Edited by hornian
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, hornian said:

 I’ve had at least one case where that happened - and the kids all identified as the gendertheir gender with the sex they were born with.

  I will say that I’ve represented more same-sex couples (or ex couples, depending on circumstances of the case) than most family law attorneys as that’s what my firm is known for...

As an attorney who deals with custody matters, as well as with the LGBT community, can you explain why our system gives such deference to a mother?  Is the concept of mother/fatherhood tied to sex, or is it tied to gender, or is it something in between.  If the biological parent who provided the x/y chromosome identifies as a woman, is that person a mother or a father in the eyes of the custody courts.  If a dad identifies as a mom, how should the courts treat that individual during divorce proceedings when it comes to custody?  We know that moms get the benefit of the doubt, but what if dad identifies as a mom? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

As an attorney who deals with custody matters, as well as with the LGBT community, can you explain why our system gives such deference to a mother?  Is the concept of mother/fatherhood tied to sex, or is it tied to gender, or is it something in between.  If the biological parent who provided the x/y chromosome identifies as a woman, is that person a mother or a father in the eyes of the custody courts.  If a dad identifies as a mom, how should the courts treat that individual during divorce proceedings when it comes to custody?  We know that moms get the benefit of the doubt, but what if dad identifies as a mom? 

 

It doesn’t come up that often, and anecdotal evidence for me is that all my cases with a trans parent have settled without a trial, so I don’t know how a court would handle it from personal experience  

I can’t explain the legal deference to mothers, especially in light of the family code that explicitly says that no preference can be given, but it certainly exists  

This Is what i tell my clients who are male:

”You live in Texas. Moms have a built In bias in their favor in custody cases just based on societal norms, so let’s see just acknowledge that and then see what we can do in your case to get over it.”

With that said, it’s not nearly as bad as it used to be, and in many courts it has little to no impact. In fact, Travis County family district judges are about 85% female, and they probably rule in favor of dads having primary more than Williamson County family court judges, who are 75% male.

I have my own theories about that,  but in general I’d rather represent a good dad in front of a female judge and a bad mom in front of a male judge, as I think I’ll get slightly better outcomes for my clients. 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 11/28/2018 at 3:39 PM, workswithseed said:

https://khn.org/morning-breakout/research-on-children-growing-out-of-gender-dysphoria-adds-layer-of-complexity-to-transgender-care/

 

Although research shows that up to 94 percent of children will "grow out" of their transgender identity, advocates say that those studies were flawed in the first place and shouldn't dictate how doctors care for young children who want to socially transition.

I like how it doesn't show how the research is flawed

They key word here is "advocates." World is full of politically motivated junk science often promoted by scientists.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 weeks later...

To prove the point, apparently Brown University earlier this year removed a study questioning gender dysphoria due to pressure from snowflakes: https://www.dailywire.com/news/35119/brown-university-researcher-released-study-about-ben-shapiro. So much for #science

This week, Brown University pulled down a news story on a study conducted by a Brown University researcher. That study focused in on what it described as “rapid-onset gender dysphoria”: gender dysphoria that was not present in early youth, but that manifested within days or weeks in teens and young adults. The study author, Lisa Littman, assistant professor of the practice of behavioral and social sciences at Brown’s School of Public Health, stated, “This kind of descriptive study is important because it defines a group and raises questions for more research. One of the main conclusions is that more research needs to be done. Descriptive studies aren’t randomized controlled trials – you can’t tell cause and effect, and you can’t tell prevalence. It’s going to take more studies to bring in more information, but this is a start.”

More post-truth politics.

Edited by Kyle
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Or it was a shit study to begin with

 

 

After the research paper was published in the Journal PLOS ONE, concerns were raised about the paper’s research design and methodology by leading academics in the field. These concerns were serious enough that PLOS ONE announced that it would conduct a post-publication re-review of the article to “seek further expert assessment on the study’s methodology and analyses.”

 

 

 

https://news.brown.edu/articles/2018/08/gender

 

The only thing here that's post-truth is your reactionary ass

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, elfenix said:

Or it was a shit study to begin with

 

 

 

 

 

 

https://news.brown.edu/articles/2018/08/gender

 

The only thing here that's post-truth is your reactionary ass

You are reading a whole lot from that paragraph that offers zero examples. We just take their word for it a Brown research professor was simply “up to no good”.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, ChickenSandwich said:

You are reading a whole lot from that paragraph that offers zero examples. We just take their word for it a Brown research professor was simply “up to no good”.

 

i read the whole release, i'm not quoting the whole thing because go read the fucking link.  just curious, who the fuck else's word am i supposed to take?  yours? totally-not-a-beta-incel kyle's?

Edited by elfenix
Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, elfenix said:

Or it was a shit study to begin with

 

 

 

 

 

 

https://news.brown.edu/articles/2018/08/gender

 

The only thing here that's post-truth is your reactionary ass

Quote

At the same time, we’ve confirmed our long-standing support for members of the trans community. Brown is proud to be among the first universities to include medical care for gender reassignment in its student health plan, and that our medical school is a leader in education on care for transgender individuals. Academic freedom and support for the trans community — or any other group—are not mutually exclusive. These values can and, indeed, must co-exist.

I think the above graph describes the intent here. There may be a legitimate problem with the paper`s methodology, but it strikes me that if it were truly a "shit study" its problems would have been specified beyond the very generic "questions about its methodology. "

Edited by GringoSalado
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, GringoSalado said:

I think the above graph describes the intent here. There may be a legitimate problem with the paper`s methodology, but it strikes me that if it were truly a "shit study" its problems would have been specified beyond the very generic "questions about its methodology. "

Exactly. I think "questions about its methodology" can be translated into "hurt a few activists' feelings." How dare we let #science get in the way of a political agenda!

Edited by Kyle
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, GringoSalado said:

I think the above graph describes the intent here. There may be a legitimate problem with the paper`s methodology, but it strikes me that if it were truly a "shit study" its problems would have been specified beyond the very generic "questions about its methodology. "

i'm sure that you read lots of press releases that go into specifics about why something's being pulled.

 

32 minutes ago, Kyle said:

Exactly. I think "questions about its methodology" can be translated into "hurt a few activists' feelings." How dare we let #science get in the way of a political agenda!

keep tilting at that windmill, i'm sure one day you'll slay a giant.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Wow, a thread about trans folk where there really isn’t much I have to add.  Thanks hornian, el fenix, workswithweed, tokamak and trauma babe.  Couldn’t have said what y’all said better myself.  

Edited by troph
Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, GringoSalado said:

?

 

And I'm sure you jump to conclusions about those specifics.

you're the one claiming that the press release needs more specifics.  have you ever read a press release that goes into great detail about why something is getting pulled?  i don't think that's very common. 

and it's you, chicken, and kyle who jumped to the conclusion that brown is bowing to the pressure of activists rather than the clearly stated reasoning in the press release. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 hours ago, elfenix said:

i'm sure that you read lots of press releases that go into specifics about why something's being pulled.

 

keep tilting at that windmill, i'm sure one day you'll slay a giant.

I know ... it sucks favoring science of emotional politics.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Kyle said:

I know ... it sucks favoring science of emotional politics.

yeah it's pretty hard on us.  all of you hysterical dorks thinking society is coming to an end because not everyone fits in your binary mold have turned the internet into shit. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 11/27/2018 at 10:44 PM, hornian said:

 But the fact is that a child's external sex organs absolutely can be mismatched with the child's internal psychology is almost universally accepted - both in humans and other mammals.

 

Wait, so have I been just assuming my dog’s gender all these years by calling them “boy?” How do you find out the preferred pronoun of a puppy? How does a dog express their gender? I feel like we’re all discussing the wrong issue here.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, elfenix said:

yeah it's pretty hard on us.  all of you hysterical dorks thinking society is coming to an end because not everyone fits in your binary mold have turned the internet into shit. 

You sure seem to spend a lot of time on it insulting people with diverse points of view.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, elfenix said:

yeah it's pretty hard on us.  all of you hysterical dorks thinking society is coming to an end because not everyone fits in your binary mold have turned the internet into shit. 

this is a safe place, elfenix.  no one here has questioned your decision to transition.  surly is very pro gender-fluidity and there is no need for your defensive attacks. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.



×
×
  • Create New...