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Dallas Couple Custody Battle Over 6-yo Gender


Kyle

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If you could provide a link from an unbiased news story on this, then it would be worth having a discussion. But this whole thing sounds like made-up nonsense meant to stoke paranoia in the hearts of conservatives who are afraid that liberals are trying to turn everyone gay.

Edited by irishtexan
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1 hour ago, irishtexan said:

If you could provide a link from an unbiased news story on this, then it would be worth having a discussion. But this whole thing sounds like made-up nonsense meant to stoke paranoia in the hearts of conservatives who are afraid that liberals are trying to turn everyone gay.

I realize today anything that disagrees with us = fake news, but the article, while an opinion piece, links to primary sources. What part of the article did you find biased?

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5 minutes ago, Kyle said:

I realize today anything that disagrees with us = fake news, but the article, while an opinion piece, links to primary sources. What part of the article did you find biased?

The "primary sources" are a court filing for a custody suit, a blog written by the father, a blog from the Church of Carrolton, and a gofund me to raise money for the father. There isn't anything included in the link from an unbiased source to verify the accuracy of anything in the article. If there were, then this would be a topic worth discussing in this forum. But since this is an entirely one-sided account of a custody dispute published in a notoriously hyper partisan editorial/news site, then this belongs in cloak room.

 

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21 minutes ago, Longhornfan1024 said:

I mean, if she's hot, likes doggie style, and will lick my balls when I put peanut butter on them, I wouldn't complain.  

Did you watch the video? The not-hot she identifies as a he and wears a dildo. He/she may like doggie style but will you?

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37 minutes ago, trauma babe said:

Please don't use the word "it" to refer to a trans person.

This 6yo kid may or may not be trans, appears the verdict is out on that one. What is far more certain is that his parents are going to psychologically fuck this kid up either way.  

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38 minutes ago, trauma babe said:

You can use "they" and "them" as third-person singular pronouns. Despite that usage not being in fashion until recent years, it has been a feature of English for a few centuries. Your elementary school language arts teacher was wrong. 

Those sound an awful lot like plural pronouns.

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csb.  was in line for the restrooms at a restaurant/bar.  men's line had 2 dudes, then me.  women's line had one women.  6 foot dude, manbun on the top of his head gets in line behind me.  women's restroom opens, woman walks out.  women in line takes a step towards the restroom.  manbun dude rushes to the women's restroom, stiff arms the woman trying to get in the restroom.  me and all the dudes said, dude what the fuck.  woman is kinda in shock. 

manbun dude looks at all of us and proclaims, don't assume my gender.

guy in line responds, shut up and take your shit, dude.

fucking idiot.

 

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27 minutes ago, Sbbruin said:

So trauma babe, did you have a traumatic childhood?  Any daddy issues you need worked out?  Just askin.

If people don't understand simple grammar, how do you expect them to understand complex issues? Snowflakes are basically moronic bullies with bullhorns.

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36 minutes ago, DalTxHornFan said:

Interesting piece presenting parallels between a previous and a current "Medical/Psychological expert-driven" craze:

https://4thwavenow.com/2017/02/10/lobotomy-the-rise-and-fall-of-a-miracle-cure/

It's funny how politicized science actually is ... Everyone loves #science as long as it agrees with their agenda.

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3 hours ago, irishtexan said:

The "primary sources" are a court filing for a custody suit, a blog written by the father, a blog from the Church of Carrolton, and a gofund me to raise money for the father. There isn't anything included in the link from an unbiased source to verify the accuracy of anything in the article. If there were, then this would be a topic worth discussing in this forum. But since this is an entirely one-sided account of a custody dispute published in a notoriously hyper partisan editorial/news site, then this belongs in cloak room.

 

Bruh ... a court filing by definition is a primary source. While the filing may not be accurate in terms of recitals, you can read the claims and decide for yourself. Do you think the site fake the filing a la Dan Rather? What for you would be an unbiased source? FWIW, I did not read any of the commentary of the discussion of the filing, but the filing is what it is (you can read that online unless you're all in #fakenews).

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3 hours ago, trauma babe said:

You can use "they" and "them" as third-person singular pronouns. Despite that usage not being in fashion until recent years, it has been a feature of English for a few centuries. Your elementary school language arts teacher was wrong. 

no, colonel sanders.  you’re wrong. 

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3 hours ago, Kyle said:

Bruh ... a court filing by definition is a primary source. While the filing may not be accurate in terms of recitals, you can read the claims and decide for yourself. Do you think the site fake the filing a la Dan Rather? What for you would be an unbiased source? FWIW, I did not read any of the commentary of the discussion of the filing, but the filing is what it is (you can read that online unless you're all in #fakenews).

A court filing is by definition one, very biased side of the story. And in family law, you aren't supposed to actually plead material facts into the pleadings. 

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Oh, and FYI - one of the "primary sources" for that article to say that the child doesn't meet the diagnosis for gender dysphoria? It's the "American College of Pediatricians" - sound's official, right? Wrong.

The real pediatric authority is the American Academy of Pediatrics (or AAP). They support the generally accepted medical consensus (I understand it's not a 100% consensus, but it qualifies for the term in the medical community, the same way there is a nonsense to vaccinate your kids even though you can find anti-vaxxer doctors) that gender dysphoria is a real, diagnosable condition.

On the other hand, the American College of Pediatricians is classified as an "Anti-LGBT Hate Group" by the Southern Poverty Law Center, and they literally splintered off from the AAP when the AAP formally endorsed gender dysphoria as a diagnosable condition. 

So, no, the "primary source" in that link is not unbiased, and it's not reliable. It is literally anti-LGBT propaganda. It's so biased, it cannot be used in evidence in a court of law because it doesn't meet the tests you have to meet for expert opinion testimony. 

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32 minutes ago, hornian said:

I'm not going to respond to every dumb thing that has been posted on this thread.

I'll just say this: I've been involved with more than one custody case with a child who is this young (or younger) with gender identity issues. I've seen it where both parents support the kid, and I've seen it where one parent is adamant that in their care, the child only wants to express as the birth gender and the parents are at each other's throats about it. 

What you can't loose sight of is that this is literally a life-or-death issue for the child in many cases. And I don't know a single parent who wants to cause their child's death. So you can make all the glib jokes you want, but keep that in mind. 

It's absolutely a real thing, gender dysphoria in adolescents is a recognized diagnoses in the DSM-IV. You may also hear about a child being "gender fluid" or "gender diverse," but those are really different sides of the same coin. There is some dispute about whether gender dysphoria should be a clinical diagnoses - but it's not because it's not real, it's because some experts don't like it being treated as a mental health issue, and having that stigma. But the fact is that a child's external sex organs absolutely can be mismatched with the child's internal psychology is almost universally accepted - both in humans and other mammals. It's not even really controversial in the medical community (their are splinter groups who claim it is - but it's not).

A six year old absolutely understands gender and his or her personal identity, in fact children start expressing their gender identity under 6. Think back to your own kids or yourself if you can - you/they probably knew before kindergarten if they were a boy or a girl.  Gender, however, does not mean sexuality. A six year old does not understand sexuality (if they do, that is a sign of sexual abuse) - and this shouldn't be confused with gay/straight/bi type of thing. This is about a child expressing their gender identity, not a sexual preference. You have to unlink the two in your mind, because they don't have the link until closer to/after puberty. I've had an expert say in a trial on this type of issue that an easy way to remember is "Gender is who a person goes to bed AS, Sexuality is who a person goes to bed WITH." Six year olds aren't going to bed with anyone. 

No one is going to start a 6 year old on any sort of hormone therapy, or do any sort of surgery. That is years away in the best/worst case scenario depending on how you look at it. And it would take a team of doctors to sign off on it, after years of going through a medical evaluation process. At a minimum, a pediatrician, a psychiatrist, and an endocrinologist. And probably some sort of therapist as well. It's not something a parent can just go to a doctor and have done. That is asinine that anyone thinks that would happen just because a parent "wanted it."

The kid needs to be in therapy to see if this is a phase they grow out of, or if it is something that is permanent. And the kid needs to be the one to lead, not the parents. And the kid needs to be supported, not judged, or not forced to please a parent. The real risk here is the child committing self harm or suicide if they are not supported by their family. A child with gender identity issues who is not supported by his or her family is 8 times more likely to attempt suicide, six times more likely to experience major depression, and four times more likely to use illegal drugs than a child whose gender identity is supported by their family. 

Make all the jokes you want - but I come down on the side of having a live child, whatever gender they want to be, rather than on the side forcing a child to live the gender you think they should and causing the child to kill themselves. 

But that's just me.

 

No one on this thread has taken a position contrary to the welfare of the child. This is Surly, jokes will be made

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2 minutes ago, OatmealRaisinCookie said:

 

 

I agree with this if they do actually have the mental/physical disorder of gender dysphoria. Serious question: are there tests that can be done to confirm or reject a gender dysphoria diagnosis? Maybe not blood work per se, but you can tell from a DNA level or something (assuming the gender dysphoria is the disorder where the chromosomes get mutated or misaligned and mismatch the presented biology/sex organs with the mental/hormones piece).

I think that would be the best route; just test for it and support and help those who have the disorder and treat it with whatever therapy is needed up to and including the radical sex change if they want to as an adult, or arrest meddling weirdo Munchhausen parents for being child abusing weirdos.

I'm not an expert, I'm a lawyer, but I know people who are.

My understanding is that there is a large body of research that leans towards gender dysphoria that has more to do with levels of hormones (testosterone/estrogen) during various phases of gestation than with chromosomes. But there isn't a medical test, because it isn't actually diagnosable unless you are measuring a fetus develop. So that is really just a theory. 

The other thing is the "radical sex change" in your statement - that's not really a thing for a child, despite the fear mongering in this article.

Most likely, an endocrinologist will give a hormone blocker to an adolescent to delay the onset of puberty (and that depends on the child - sometime hormone blockers can be stared as young as 8 if the child has early onset puberty, but usually it is more in the range of 12-13 for boys), to allow more psychological development and further therapy/treatment to confirm the diagnoses when the child is older or no longer a child. Hormone blockers are 100% reversible. It's not chemical castration. It just delays the onset of puberty.

Hormone therapy (i.e. estrogen or testosterone) can begin once the diagnosis is more concrete, usually closer to 14-17. But even that often times waits until the child is older.

Surgery on a minor is not unheard of, if everyone in the medical team + parents agree that it's real, but most of the time surgery happens once the child is 18+ and has been on hormone therapy for several years, and the adult (at that time) makes a fully informed decision. I've actually never personally been involved in a case (and I've been involved with several in multiple parts of the state) where the child had surgery as a minor. In my limited personal experience, surgery has always been something that everyone (parents, medical professionals, the child, etc.) wanted to wait until the child was over 18 to make the decision for themselves. 

Again, no one is chemically castrating a 6 or 8 year old, or having gender reassignment surgery on a 6 or 8 year old. That is fear mongering. 

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2 minutes ago, OatmealRaisinCookie said:

I specifically said as an adult, have that radical gender plastic surgery or whatever if warranted/desired, not as a kid.

I know - I'm clarifying that the article that says "the 8 year old will be chemically castrated" is wrong, not medically supported, and is fear mongering. And I'm adding my personal experience on the legal side of this to say that I've never seen a minor in my personal practice who had gender reassignment surgery. 

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16 minutes ago, hornian said:

On the other hand, the American College of Pediatricians is classified as an "Anti-LGBT Hate Group" by the Southern Poverty Law Center... 

So, no, the "primary source" in that link is not unbiased, and it's not reliable.  

The American College of Pediatricians is not a reliable source. But using the SPLC as an “unbiased” measuring stick is more than a little ironic.

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6 minutes ago, hornian said:

I know - I'm clarifying that the article that says "the 8 year old will be chemically castrated" is wrong, not medically supported, and is fear mongering. 

Warning: Pharmacological pedantry ahead.

 

Administration of a GNRH agonist is medically referred to as "chemical castration". The term is used in cancer treatment (e.g. prostate) as well as a variety of other situations when the intent is to suppress sex hormone production.  I can understand why the trans community would want to create some distance from the terminology in this setting, as it creates confusion with surgical castration which is irreversible.  But the term is a common medical usage for the types of treatments that are being used.

 

Otherwise, I agree. And still think that the parents are going to royally fuck this kid up in the situation by the way they are behaving, no matter how the kid ultimately identifies. 

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1 minute ago, Anastasis said:

Warning: Pharmacological pedantry ahead.

 

Administration of a GNRH agonist is medically referred to as "chemical castration". The terms is used in cancer treatment (e.g. prostate) as well as a variety of other situations when the intent is to suppress sex hormone production.  I can understand why the trans community would want to create some distance from the terminology in this setting, as it creates confusion with surgical castration which is irreversible.  But the term is a common medical usage for the types of treatments that are being used.  

Thanks. As I said - I'm a lawyer, not an expert. 

However, colloquialism aside - it's not happening at age 8. Age 8 is the youngest it has ever happened in the history of reported treatment. It's an outlier. But it is something that is always thrown out there to make people think that a child is having some drastic treatment at an alarmingly young age (I say "always" because I've seen that multiple times and had experts testify about it more than once). It's done to block the onset puberty and the onset of secondary sex characteristics until the child is older, and most kids don't start puberty until closer to 12-14.

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14 minutes ago, formermav43 said:

The American College of Pediatricians is not a reliable source. But using the SPLC as an “unbiased” measuring stick is more than a little ironic.

I actually didn't say they were unbiased, if you read what I wrote. I know that they have a bias, and I assume most people do as well. But it's not immaterial. No one is calling the AAP a hate group. And many people are easily confused by ACP vs. AAP. 

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1 minute ago, hornian said:

Thanks. As I said - I'm a lawyer, not an expert. 

However, colloquialism aside - it's not happening at age 8. Age 8 is the youngest it has ever happened in the history of reported treatment. It's an outlier. But it is something that is always thrown out there to make people think that a child is having some drastic treatment at an alarmingly young age (I say "always" because I've seen that multiple times and had experts testify about it more than once). It's done to block the onset puberty and the onset of secondary sex characteristics until the child is older, and most kids don't start puberty until closer to 12-14.

 

Nor am I in this area.  Just pointing out that the terminology is not medically uncommon.

Apparently the mother is a pediatrician who markets her practice under the catch phrase "modern parenting, classical healthcare". The article is the Federalist sends off all kinds of warning signs, but clearly there is much more to the story. Hope the parents get their shit together.

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8 hours ago, Kyle said:

I realize today anything that disagrees with us = fake news, but the article, while an opinion piece, links to primary sources. What part of the article did you find biased?

So I've actually read the links in the opinion piece that you call primary sources. 

I've already talked about the ACP being biased. 

I haven't actually talked about the characterization of the legal pleadings. 

The article characterized the mother's petition as "charging the father with child abuse" and "Seeking to terminate his parental rights." That is 100% inaccurate, based on the pleadings. First, a private citizen can't "charge someone with child abuse" - that would be up to the state. Second, the petition doesn't even allege family violence or seek a protective order, which is the closes thing to "charging someone with child abuse" that would happen in family court. And finally, the petition in no way, shape, or form seeks to terminate father's parental rights. 

The other things that are linked in the "legal pleadings" is the father's go fund me, and an article from and journal called "The New Atlantis." I'll just quote the wiki for the New Atlantis to see why it's not really an unbiased source for the medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria:

Quote

The New Atlantis, founded in 2003, is a quarterly journal about the social, ethical, political, and policy dimensions of modern science and technology.[1] The journal is published in Washington, D.C. by the Center for the Study of Technology and Society.[2]The New Atlantis was founded by the social conservative advocacy group the Ethics and Public Policy Center. It is edited by Ari Schulman, having previously been edited by co-founders Eric Cohen and Adam Keiper.

The journal’s name is taken from Francis Bacon’s utopian novella New Atlantis, which the journal’s editors describe as a "fable of a society living with the benefits and challenges of advanced science and technology."[3] An editorial in the inaugural issue states that the aim of the journal is "to help us avoid the extremes of euphoria and despair that new technologies too often arouse; and to help us judge when mobilizing our technological prowess is sensible or necessary, and when the preservation of things that count requires limiting the kinds of technological power that would lessen, cheapen, or ultimately destroy us."[4] Writing for National Review, editor Adam Keiper described The New Atlantis as being written from a "particularly American and conservativeway of thinking about both the blessings and the burdens of modern science and technology."[5] New Atlantis authors and bioethicists publishing in other journals have also similarly referred to The New Atlantis as being written from a social conservative stance which utilizes religion.[6][7][8][9]

The opinion piece also mischaracterizes the diagnostic criteria for gender dysphoria under the DSM-V (although, ironically links to the DSM-V so if you actually click the link you can read for yourself what the real diagnostic criteria are). Of note, the DSM-V states that gender starts to develop between 2 and 4 years of age:

Quote

In children, gender dysphoria diagnosis involves at least six of the following and an associated significant distress or impairment in function, lasting at least six months.

  1. A strong desire to be of the other gender or an insistence that one is the other gender
  2. A strong preference for wearing clothes typical of the opposite gender
  3. A strong preference for cross-gender roles in make-believe play or fantasy play
  4. A strong preference for the toys, games or activities stereotypically used or engaged in by the other gender
  5. A strong preference for playmates of the other gender
  6. A strong rejection of toys, games and activities typical of one’s assigned gender
  7. A strong dislike of one’s sexual anatomy
  8. A strong desire for the physical sex characteristics that match one’s experienced gender

For children, cross-gender behaviors may start between ages 2 and 4, the same age at which most typically developing children begin showing gendered behaviors and interests. Gender atypical behavior is common among young children and may be part of normal development. Children who meet the criteria for gender dysphoria may or may not continue to experience it into adolescence and adulthood. Some research shows that children who had more intense symptoms and distress, who were more persistent, insistent and consistent in their cross-gender statements and behaviors, and who used more declarative statements (“I am a boy (or girl)” rather than “I want to be a boy (or girl)”) were more likely to become transgender adults

The only other sources are the opinion piece Author's own book, an excerpt from a Pastor of a church who interacted with the child a grand total of 3 times (all in the father's care), and an article from the Atlantic (that has no real linkage to his thesis and in fact supports the mom's position that gender dysphoria is a real condition, but just has different anecdotes about there not being a one-size fits all treatment) with some cherry picked quotes. 

For the TL:DR:

The "primary sources" in the "opinion piece" are all either biased, or mischaracterized. 

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As it happens my kids know an 8 year old trans person.  When we met him, he was an ultra shy kid that refused to read aloud in class, among other traits. 

Over the next year, we found out that his parents started letting him wear dresses at home, then feminized his name at his request. 

Taking small steps at a time, eventually she started living everyday life as a girl. 

As a girl, her personality totally changed and she is happy and outgoing and playful. 

Her parents struggled with what to do, but ended up settling on “we just want our kid to be happy.”  

No medical therapies yet, as she’s way too young. 

But the kid absolutely knew, and the parents were caring enough to listen even though in a way it cost them their only son out of 4 kids. 

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16 hours ago, hornian said:

A court filing is by definition one, very biased side of the story. And in family law, you aren't supposed to actually plead material facts into the pleadings. 

I agree. I did not mean to imply the court filings were unbiased and necessarily fact. However, I inferred (possibly incorrectly) that the poster was dismissing the fact there was a dispute based on an ad hom ("fake news") against the web site. Reading the court documents, it seems clear (I'm not a lawyer) that there is a dispute between the parents and that a significant portion of it involves whether to consider the child male or female. No value judgment on who is correct on that question, but the question does seem to be a legitimate court proceeding. 

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