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56 minutes ago, MC Fresh Breath said:

fast forward to 5 minutes in.

 

21 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

 

Both the audio and crater analysis concern the direction of the missile immediately before impact, all of which is actually consistent with the US, Israeli, and other analysis (including Palestinian video of the missile changing direction mid-flight prior to impact). 

Edited by Tonesky
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Just now, Tonesky said:

 

Both the audio and crater analysis concern the direction of the missile immediately before impact, all of which is actually consistent with the US, Israeli, and other analysis (including Palestinian video) of the missile changing direction mid-flight prior to impact. 

It was an interesting thread. I don't understand why the US is opposed to an independent investigation.

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20 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

 

LOL at people reading all this stuff about the “IOF” and which direction the projectile came from when CNN broadcast the goddam video showing a Gaza-origin rocket malfunctioning and going back the other way. 
 

https://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2023/10/18/gaza-rocket-hospital-blast-vpx.cnn

Accidental confirmation of the thing they don’t want to confirm. 

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50 minutes ago, Nivek said:

Look at it from a macro scale.  Between the two groups, one would settle for peace.  The other seems like they only settle for chaos.   And don't start with that monolith bullshit.  Hamas is the government even if they like to pretend they are not or if anyone else on here likes to pretend otherwise.  They represent the Gazans. 

I don't know why you guys keep hammering this as if everyone isn't aware and says Hamas has to go. I mean, I know why I just want to hear you say it.

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18 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Where did youl hear that the U.S. is opposed to an independent investigation? Which U.S. official or agency made that statement? 

The US State Department, Matthew Miller

https://www.state.gov/briefings/department-press-briefing-october-19-2023/

Quote

QUESTION: It’s precisely because of that that in the region, as you know, there is mistrust over the Israelis saying, and actually of the U.S. position as well, because there is previous administrations that took us to war in Iraq on a lie that was defended on a very high level, including behind this podium. That’s why people are cynical when you hear something. We might not know the truth, but would the United States support an international investigation? That’s —

MR MILLER: I do not believe that is appropriate at this time. The Israeli Government has released a great deal of evidence to support their contention that it – this was a misfire rocket attack from inside Gaza that unfortunately landed on this hospital and killed it looks like hundreds of civilians. The U.S. Government is conducting its own assessment.

 

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12 hours ago, Neonmoon said:

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2019-10-01/ty-article/israel-quietly-lets-in-gaza-workers-in-bid-to-ease-tensions/0000017f-e548-dc7e-adff-f5edf54e0000

They allowed aid to Hamas in exchange for reduced rocket fire. Just like all their efforts. It’s always giving up something for peace. A peace that is never kept by the other party. 

It’s not Israel’s fault Hamas exists. That’s absurd.

It’s also not the US fault Russian invaded Ukraine. Same absurdity 
 

Well maybe they should not have funded Hamas in the 80s, aka the minute they were founded.

https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/

Israel does not care for peace, otherwise they would have moved back to the Green line and be done with it, they want to keep stealing West Bank/Jerusalem territory and hence Hamas is a useful pawn in doing this, prop up Hamas by giving them money and they weaken the PLO in the West Bank making annexations easier.

It is simple Game Theory, only maccabre game theory because they placed settlement annexation as a higher priority over state security, and then Oct 7 happened, the minute they go back to thinking they can contain Hamas is the minute they will give them money again.

These are Bibi's words not mine

“’Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas,’ he told a meeting of his Likud party’s Knesset members in March 2019. ‘This is part of our strategy—to isolate the Palestinians in Gaza from the Palestinians in the West Bank.’”

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2 hours ago, Tonesky said:

 

Both the audio and crater analysis concern the direction of the missile immediately before impact, all of which is actually consistent with the US, Israeli, and other analysis (including Palestinian video of the missile changing direction mid-flight prior to impact). 

What's your take on the allgedly* fabricated Hamas conversation?  There's enough to cast doubt.  There's also the head of the hospital stating Israel warned them to evacuate.  None of  this proves anything of course.  But there's doubt.  

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Good ol Onion:

Quote

 

Biden Urges Americans Not To Let Dangerous Online Rhetoric Humanize Palestinians

WASHINGTON—Upon returning from his brief diplomatic trip to the Middle East, President Joe Biden urged the nation Thursday not to let dangerous online rhetoric humanize Palestinians. “As the war between Israel and Hamas rages on, I urge my fellow Americans to remain vigilant, and not fall for any false propaganda that claims people living in Gaza and the West Bank are worthy of human life,” said the 46th president, adding that since the war had begun, U.S. intelligence had discovered countless bad actors flooding the internet with reports that many Palestinians were mothers, fathers, and children who were not terrorists and did not deserve to be trapped without food, water, or fuel while being carpet-bombed into submission. “If you hear a Palestinian being described with terminology like ‘son,’ ‘daughter,’ or ‘in desperate need of medical attention,’ then you should be aware that what you are reading has been specifically designed to stoke empathy.” At press time, Biden added that Americans should also avoid dangerous propaganda that wrongly asserts the billions of dollars in military aid the United States has sent to Israel could be spent on things like healthcare, education, or alleviating poverty at home.

 

https://www.theonion.com/most-common-sti-in-every-state-1850937846

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15 minutes ago, linux said:

Well maybe they should not have funded Hamas in the 80s, aka the minute they were founded.

https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/

Israel does not care for peace, otherwise they would have moved back to the Green line and be done with it, they want to keep stealing West Bank/Jerusalem territory and hence Hamas is a useful pawn in doing this, prop up Hamas by giving them money and they weaken the PLO in the West Bank making annexations easier.

It is simple Game Theory, only maccabre game theory because they placed settlement annexation as a higher priority over state security, and then Oct 7 happened, the minute they go back to thinking they can contain Hamas is the minute they will give them money again.

These are Bibi's words not mine

“’Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas,’ he told a meeting of his Likud party’s Knesset members in March 2019. ‘This is part of our strategy—to isolate the Palestinians in Gaza from the Palestinians in the West Bank.’”

*Macabre.

Your false equivalency is noted: "If Israel wanted peace, they would have 'X'' is sophomoric. Be better.

You're a dummy. 

 

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11 minutes ago, MC Fresh Breath said:

What's your take on the allgedly* fabricated Hamas conversation?  There's enough to cast doubt.  There's also the head of the hospital stating Israel warned them to evacuate.  None of  this proves anything of course.  But there's doubt.  

There is not.

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9 minutes ago, Welshy said:

*Macabre.

Your false equivalency is noted: "If Israel wanted peace, they would have 'X'' is sophomoric. Be better.

You're a dummy. 

 

Notice how none of you address their actions and statements.

To you funding Hamas is no big deal and always "a move to peace" basically Trumpian logic, when they literally say that they fund Hamas to maintain perpetual war.

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16 minutes ago, linux said:

Notice how none of you address their actions and statements.

To you funding Hamas is no big deal and always "a move to peace" basically Trumpian logic, when they literally say that they fund Hamas to maintain perpetual war.

Rape. Murder. Massacre. Abduction. 

There is no conversation after that. As Hamas leadership, in Qatar, well knows.  

*and I only addressed your comments. You're not doing Gaza or Palestine any favors. 

Edited by Welshy
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45 minutes ago, MC Fresh Breath said:

What's your take on the allgedly* fabricated Hamas conversation?  There's enough to cast doubt.  There's also the head of the hospital stating Israel warned them to evacuate.  None of  this proves anything of course.  But there's doubt.  

I find it highly suspect that nobody seems interested in fully investigating what happened. I've been pretty consistent about "wait and see" before making any firm conclusions. The early video suggested it was Israel, the next day photos of the destruction suggested it might not be, but there's been nothing conclusive of yet.

Also, it looks like some hostages have been released. Great news.

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16 minutes ago, Welshy said:

Rape. Murder. Massacre. Abduction. 

There is no conversation after that. As Hamas leadership, in Qatar, well knows.  

*and I only addressed your comments. You're not doing Gaza or Palestine any favors. 

Again you keep skirting the confessions from fucking Benjamin Netanyahu.

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41 minutes ago, Welshy said:

There is not.

So you believe they have the capability to listen in to a random conversation that happened to discuss the very same blast, but they didn't have the capability to have known about the October 7 attack in advance?

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5 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

I find it highly suspect that nobody seems interested in fully investigating what happened. I've been pretty consistent about "wait and see" before making any firm conclusions . The early video suggested it was Israel, the next day photos of the destruction suggested it might not be, but there's been nothing conclusive of yet.

Also, it looks like some hostages have been released. Great news.

No one is interested because it doesn't matter. It's a false narrative. It was designed to be a false narrative. Raping, murdering, massacring and kidnapping make all these sophistic posts meaningless. 

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1 minute ago, Welshy said:

No one is interested because it doesn't matter. It's a false narrative. It was designed to be a false narrative. Raping, murdering, massacring and kidnapping make all these sophistic posts meaningless. 

I think attempted war crimes matter and we should hold whoever did them responsible.

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43 minutes ago, Welshy said:

I'm skirting your ineptitude. Be better. Stop sucking. 

This is pretty damn lame, anyhow I posted evidence, you post pearl clutching, those that follow reason agree with me, those that are emotional agree with you.

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22 minutes ago, MC Fresh Breath said:

It has been interesting to see that the  DT denizens are pretty comfortable in this thread.  Seems the CR and the DT majorities aren't overall all that different when it comes down to matters like this.  

Did you think it was?

39 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

God damn enough with the socks

I'm not a sock. A shoe at worst. 

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10 hours ago, linux said:

Well maybe they should not have funded Hamas in the 80s, aka the minute they were founded.

https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/

Israel does not care for peace, otherwise they would have moved back to the Green line and be done with it, they want to keep stealing West Bank/Jerusalem territory and hence Hamas is a useful pawn in doing this, prop up Hamas by giving them money and they weaken the PLO in the West Bank making annexations easier.

It is simple Game Theory, only maccabre game theory because they placed settlement annexation as a higher priority over state security, and then Oct 7 happened, the minute they go back to thinking they can contain Hamas is the minute they will give them money again.

These are Bibi's words not mine

“’Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas,’ he told a meeting of his Likud party’s Knesset members in March 2019. ‘This is part of our strategy—to isolate the Palestinians in Gaza from the Palestinians in the West Bank.’”

First off, no one agrees with Bibi in this thread. He’s a piece of shit.

The conspiracy theory that Israel is responsible for Hamas is laughable. It’s pure gaslighting. It’s Israel’s fault Hamas keeps killing them. Okay

Israel doesn’t want peace? Another laughable accusation not backed by facts. They withdrew from Gaza, after conquering it, from a war they didn’t start, to keep the peace. They allowed the PLO to return from exile, the same PLO that was launching terrorist attacks from Lebanon, to keep the peace. 
 

Also, read the entire article you posted. The words do not support your position even thought the hot take headline might 
 

Quote

The Palestinian cause was for decades led by the PLO, which Israel regarded as a terrorist outfit and sought to crush until the 1990s, when the PLO dropped its vow to destroy the Jewish state. The PLO's Palestinian rival, Hamas, led by Islamist militants, refused to recognize Israel and vowed to continue "resistance." Hamas now controls Gaza, a crowded, impoverished sliver of land on the Mediterranean from which Israel pulled out troops and settlers in 2005.

When Israel first encountered Islamists in Gaza in the 1970s and '80s, they seemed focused on studying the Quran, not on confrontation with Israel. The Israeli government officially recognized a precursor to Hamas called Mujama Al-Islamiya, registering the group as a charity. It allowed Mujama members to set up an Islamic university and build mosques, clubs and schools. Crucially, Israel often stood aside when the Islamists and their secular left-wing Palestinian rivals battled, sometimes violently, for influence in both Gaza and the West Bank.

When I look back at the chain of events I think we made a mistake," says David Hacham, who worked in Gaza in the late 1980s and early '90s as an Arab-affairs expert in the Israeli military. "But at the time nobody thought about the possible results."

Israeli officials who served in Gaza disagree on how much their own actions may have contributed to the rise of Hamas. They blame the group's recent ascent on outsiders, primarily Iran. This view is shared by the Israeli government. "Hamas in Gaza was built by Iran as a foundation for power, and is backed through funding, through training and through the provision of advanced weapons," Mr. Olmert said last Saturday. Hamas has denied receiving military assistance from Iran.

Arieh Spitzen, the former head of the Israeli military's Department of Palestinian Affairs, says that even if Israel had tried to stop the Islamists sooner, he doubts it could have done much to curb political Islam, a movement that was spreading across the Muslim world. He says attempts to stop it are akin to trying to change the internal rhythms of nature: "It is like saying: 'I will kill all the mosquitoes.' But then you get even worse insects that will kill you...You break the balance. You kill Hamas you might get al Qaeda."

When it became clear in the early 1990s that Gaza's Islamists had mutated from a religious group into a fighting force aimed at Israel -- particularly after they turned to suicide bombings in 1994 -- Israel cracked down with ferocious force. But each military assault only increased Hamas's appeal to ordinary Palestinians. The group ultimately trounced secular rivals, notably Fatah, in a 2006 election supported by Israel's main ally, the U.S.

So Big Bad Israel let a peaceful Muslim organization set up Mosques and schools. Should they have cracked down upon them? Wouldn’t that have caused outrage? The precursor to Hamas opposed the secular terrorist organization PLO. Oh after years and year of radicalization and Iran stirring shit up. They morphed in a terrorist organization. So Israel was like shit, now we have to stop them top. 

Buy yes, it’s Israel’s fault for not killing them while they were building schools for children 

 

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1 hour ago, Neonmoon said:

First off, no one agrees with Bibi in this thread. He’s a piece of shit.

The conspiracy theory that Israel is responsible for Hamas is laughable. It’s pure gaslighting. It’s Israel’s fault Hamas keeps killing them. Okay

Israel doesn’t want peace? Another laughable accusation not backed by facts. They withdrew from Gaza, after conquering it, from a war they didn’t start, to keep the peace. They allowed the PLO to return from exile, the same PLO that was launching terrorist attacks from Lebanon, to keep the peace. 
 

Also, read the entire article you posted. The words do not support your position even thought the hot take headline might 
 

So Big Bad Israel let a peaceful Muslim organization set up Mosques and schools. Should they have cracked down upon them? Wouldn’t that have caused outrage? The precursor to Hamas opposed the secular terrorist organization PLO. Oh after years and year of radicalization and Iran stirring shit up. They morphed in a terrorist organization. So Israel was like shit, now we have to stop them top. 

Buy yes, it’s Israel’s fault for not killing them while they were building schools for children 

 

Now do the Likud party.  Bibi and the far right factions in Israel are the ones who have undermined peace and empower hamas. Without spooky browns to stir up fear and provide political power, far right elements in Israel would be very weak, and left wing elements would be in power, the settlements would stop, and peace would become an option. 
 

To get to peace, we would need to remove the far right elements from both Palestine and Israel.  Hamas needs Likud.  Likud needs Hamas.

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15 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

There has been a lot of discussion about how the West Bank experience proves that abandoning terrorism was a mistake and Gaza had good reason to for Hamas as a better alternative:

 

This is important context because as shitty as things are in how Israel treats West Bank, it is undeniable that it’s better to be a Palestinian there than in Gaza— whether that’s economics or security. 
 

Diplomacy gets tossed around like it’s an option on the drop-down menu, but there needs to be certain conditions met for it to be an option.  The pressing issues for West Bank— stopping illegal settlements, policing settler violence against Palestinians, logistics of control of Jerusalem, expanded political and civil rights of Palestinians— are issues where diplomacy can be deployed. You have parties (Israel and the PA) that have in the past made concessions, you have specific things to talk about, there is a desired end state that can be seen.  These problems aren’t intractable and there are similar problems elsewhere that got chalked up to “ethnic hate” that proved soluble. 
 

You cannot sprinkle some diplomacy on the Hamas problem. It is not an insurgency, it’s an apocalyptic group with a genocidal charter, with outside backers, that has installed itself as the authority in Gaza. There is not a party to do diplomacy with and the issues at play are not ones where either side can make concessions without surrendering its own core interests. Something kinetic is always going to be needed. 

I like The Economist but unless I am missing something, this seems like really shoddy analysis. I don't think anyone would be surprised that the economy is better in West Bank than in Gaza but I am not sure how confidently anyone can then state that a) this is true specifically for Palestinians or b) that this means life is better for Palestinians in West Bank.

I haven't posted much in this thread because I know enough to know I don't know shit about fuck, but at least per Wikipedia the Israeli population in West Bank has grown by 4.6% CAGR 2000-2018 (the latest date available), more than double the GDP growth cited by The Economist. I suspect that the increasing Israeli population isn't solely responsible for the GDP per person growth but also seems like something that can't be ignored. Even if GDP growth were true for Palestinians in West Bank, given that Israelis have suffered no consequence for literally killing Palestinians and seizing the settlements, I wouldn't be ready to argue that a better economy means life is better in West Bank.

None of this is meant to justify anything that has happened, just to say I am surprised by this lazy journalism and the conclusion from @956 Worldwide that "it is undeniable that it’s better to be a Palestinian there than in Gaza— whether that’s economics or security".
 

 

 

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1 hour ago, GW Hayduke said:

Now do the Likud party.  Bibi and the far right factions in Israel are the ones who have undermined peace and empower hamas. Without spooky browns to stir up fear and provide political power, far right elements in Israel would be very weak, and left wing elements would be in power, the settlements would stop, and peace would become an option. 
 

To get to peace, we would need to remove the far right elements from both Palestine and Israel.  Hamas needs Likud.  Likud needs Hamas.

Yep. The far right is the far right, whether in Israel, the USA, or 1930s Europe.

They stir up shit because it's how they stay in power.

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1 hour ago, Serak The Preparer said:

I like The Economist but unless I am missing something, this seems like really shoddy analysis. I don't think anyone would be surprised that the economy is better in West Bank than in Gaza but I am not sure how confidently anyone can then state that a) this is true specifically for Palestinians or b) that this means life is better for Palestinians in West Bank.

I haven't posted much in this thread because I know enough to know I don't know shit about fuck, but at least per Wikipedia the Israeli population in West Bank has grown by 4.6% CAGR 2000-2018 (the latest date available), more than double the GDP growth cited by The Economist. I suspect that the increasing Israeli population isn't solely responsible for the GDP per person growth but also seems like something that can't be ignored. Even if GDP growth were true for Palestinians in West Bank, given that Israelis have suffered no consequence for literally killing Palestinians and seizing the settlements, I wouldn't be ready to argue that a better economy means life is better in West Bank.

None of this is meant to justify anything that has happened, just to say I am surprised by this lazy journalism and the conclusion from @956 Worldwide that "it is undeniable that it’s better to be a Palestinian there than in Gaza— whether that’s economics or security".
 

 

 

The data is out there to back it up.  Since 2008, there have been over 5000 Palestinian fatalities in Gaza and just over 1000 in the West Bank (not counting 2023).  Major hostilities have broken out multiple times in Gaza and none in the West Bank.  This includes settler related violence. On the security front, it’s not even close. This is segregated between Palestinian/Israeli. 
 

https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties

On the economy, besides GDP growth, there is the persistent gap in unemployment, 45% in Gaza and 13% in the West Bank.  Poverty rates are 13 percent in West Bank and 53 percent in Gaza.  This cannot be explained away by the presence of settlers.  And it’s entirely logical because the Palestinian economy is intertwined with Israel’s and Palestinians in Gaza basically cannot participate because of Hamas. 
 

In West Bank, the poverty rate, unemployment rate, and violent death rate is many, many times lower. You can condemn the settlers and settler violence while recognizing that overall economy and security is far better in the West Bank. 

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4 hours ago, Neonmoon said:

The conspiracy theory that Israel is responsible for Hamas is laughable. It’s pure gaslighting. It’s Israel’s fault Hamas keeps killing them. Okay

This is such a weird, reductionist take. No one is saying Israel is responsible for Hamas. It is very arguable that some of their (and not just Israel's of course) actions in the last 75 years led to Hamas gaining support in Gaza. This is how just about any terrorist organization arises/gains power.

I feel like what people are referring to is literally Netanyahu's policies with regard to propping up Hamas in order to keep the boot on Gaza's neck. It's not a fucking conspiracy theory and people like you and 956 have repeatedly insinuated that anyone who brings stuff like this up is engaging in an anti-semitic conspiracy theory:

https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-10-11/ty-article/.premium/netanyahu-needed-a-strong-hamas/0000018b-1e9f-d47b-a7fb-bfdfd8f30000?v=1697902572267

35 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

In West Bank, the poverty rate, unemployment rate, and violent death rate is many, many times lower. You can condemn the settlers and settler violence while recognizing that overall economy and security is far better in the West Bank. 

What's a little ethnic cleansing as long as the trains run on time?

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Now do the Likud party.  Bibi and the far right factions in Israel are the ones who have undermined peace and empower hamas. Without spooky browns to stir up fear and provide political power, far right elements in Israel would be very weak, and left wing elements would be in power, the settlements would stop, and peace would become an option. 
 
To get to peace, we would need to remove the far right elements from both Palestine and Israel.  Hamas needs Likud.  Likud needs Hamas.

Yep. The far right is the far right, whether in Israel, the USA, or 1930s Europe.
They stir up shit because it's how they stay in power.

Bingo.
I mean, shit…where would the GQP and Trump be without 1) the “existential threat of the brown horde!” that 2) they damn sure never want to solve, and that their leading donors support (by hiring the hell outta said illegal browns)? It’s a standard play: “only we can protect you from the threat of (thing that we make sure remains a threat)!”
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8 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

This is such a weird, reductionist take. No one is saying Israel is responsible for Hamas. It is very arguable that some of their (and not just Israel's of course) actions in the last 75 years led to Hamas gaining support in Gaza. This is how just about any terrorist organization arises/gains power.

I feel like what people are referring to is literally Netanyahu's policies with regard to propping up Hamas in order to keep the boot on Gaza's neck. It's not a fucking conspiracy theory and people like you and 956 have repeatedly insinuated that anyone who brings stuff like this up is engaging in an anti-semitic conspiracy theory:

https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-10-11/ty-article/.premium/netanyahu-needed-a-strong-hamas/0000018b-1e9f-d47b-a7fb-bfdfd8f30000?v=1697902572267

What's a little ethnic cleansing as long as the trains run on time?

From the article you cited— which of these things that Netanyahu did to prop up Hamas do you object to? Be very specific:

Quote

Thus, amid this bid to impair Abbas, Hamas was upgraded from a mere terror group to an organization with which Israel held indirect negotiations via Egypt, and one that was allowed to receive infusions of cash from abroad.

Quote

Hamas was also included in discussions about increasing the number of work permits Israel granted to Gazan laborers, which kept money flowing into Gaza, meaning food for families and the ability to purchase basic products.

Quote

Toward the end of Netanyahu’s fifth government in 2021, approximately 2,000-3,000 work permits were issued to Gazans. This number climbed to 5,000 and, during the Bennett-Lapid government, rose sharply to 10,000.

Since Netanyahu returned to power in January 2023, the number of work permits has soared to nearly 20,000.

Quote

Additionally, since 2014, Netanyahu-led governments have practically turned a blind eye to the incendiary balloons and rocket fire from Gaza.

Quote


Meanwhile, Israel has allowed suitcases holding millions in Qatari cash to enter Gaza through its crossings since 2018, in order to maintain its fragile ceasefire with the Hamas rulers of the Strip

Again, be very specific because I feel like I’m taking crazy pills. It seems like Netanyahu did a lot of the things you and chainsaw say Israel should do in Gaza:

1. Hold negotiations though Egypt (diplomacy)

2. Increase work permits and let more people out of the “Open Air Prison” to provide for families 

3. Not respond tit-for-tat to rocket attacks.

4. Allow in Qatari cash (note-most of this pays the salaries of local government workers to keep service open) to enter in exchange for maintaining the ceasefire. 
 

Am I wrong here? Hasn’t this been exactly what you’ve been calling for? That article isn’t making the argument you think. 

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15 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

From the article you cited— which of these things that Netanyahu did to prop up Hamas do you object to? Be very specific:

Again, be very specific because I feel like I’m taking crazy pills. It seems like Netanyahu did a lot of the things you and chainsaw say Israel should do in Gaza:

1. Hold negotiations though Egypt (diplomacy)

2. Increase work permits and let more people out of the “Open Air Prison” to provide for families 

3. Not respond tit-for-tat to rocket attacks.

4. Allow in Qatari cash (note-most of this pays the salaries of local government workers to keep service open) to enter in exchange for maintaining the ceasefire. 
 

Am I wrong here? Hasn’t this been exactly what you’ve been calling for? That article isn’t making the argument you think. 

I have never called for diplomacy with Hamas. Hamas' existence is antithetical to peace between Palestinians and Israelis. My personal criticism would be these actions are taken by Netanyahu's government in order to deliberately facilitate Hamas' continued existence as defacto regional warlords instead of working towards true Palestinian statehood.

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15 hours ago, MC Fresh Breath said:

What's your take on the allgedly* fabricated Hamas conversation?  There's enough to cast doubt.  There's also the head of the hospital stating Israel warned them to evacuate.  None of  this proves anything of course.  But there's doubt.  

The take is that the entire report is a shit -show riddled with terrible errors and contradictions and sloppiness, so why believe that discrete part? 

 

 

On the hospital thing, I’m reminded so much of the MH 370 shoot down, where the Russians cycled through endless theories from plausible to implausible while the actual explanation remained static.  Thus far I have seen the following  theories from Palestinian aligned or friendly sources:

1. A JDAM MK-80 series bomb destroyed the hospital and killed 500 people. 


2. A JDAM MK-80 in “airburst mode” landed and that didn’t destroy the hospital (casualty estimates go away here, as soon as the daylight photos appear)


3. An Israeli drone fired a Hellfire or Spike anti-personnel missile 

4. An Israeli artillery shell

Versus one static explanation from Western intelligence and the IDF:

1. Most likely a Gaza-origin rocket misfire. 
 

The comms on one side are super similar to Kremlin-style comms (no surprise) and “there’s doubt” is the entire point. 

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3 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

I have never called for diplomacy with Hamas. Hamas' existence is antithetical to peace between Palestinians and Israelis. My personal criticism would be these actions are taken by Netanyahu's government in order to deliberately facilitate Hamas' continued existence as defacto regional warlords instead of working towards true Palestinian statehood.

It seems we’re closer than you think. Are you arguing Israel should work toward real reconciliation with the PA while strangling Hamas through a full economic and financial blockade and a kinetic response to the rocket attacks they regularly launch? 

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18 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

It seems we’re closer than you think. Are you arguing Israel should work toward real reconciliation with the PA while strangling Hamas through a full economic and financial blockade and a kinetic response to the rocket attacks they regularly launch? 

Look man, we're good, and I hope you understand I'm not trying to be rude when I say this, but I've made my position on this clear, several times in this thread. I'm not going to type it all out for you again, you're welcome to go back and look for yourself.

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51 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

From the article you cited— which of these things that Netanyahu did to prop up Hamas do you object to? Be very specific:

Again, be very specific because I feel like I’m taking crazy pills. It seems like Netanyahu did a lot of the things you and chainsaw say Israel should do in Gaza:

1. Hold negotiations though Egypt (diplomacy)

2. Increase work permits and let more people out of the “Open Air Prison” to provide for families 

3. Not respond tit-for-tat to rocket attacks.

4. Allow in Qatari cash (note-most of this pays the salaries of local government workers to keep service open) to enter in exchange for maintaining the ceasefire. 
 

Am I wrong here? Hasn’t this been exactly what you’ve been calling for? That article isn’t making the argument you think. 

This is all fine and good, the problem is the intent and that intent was annexing the West Bank.
 

They don't get a cookie for looking for peace in Gaza while they clearly intend to leverage that peace to violate the West Bank. In the end they got the blowback the usual blowback fascists create.

 

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https://themedialine.org/top-stories/evidence-on-display-at-israels-forensic-pathology-center-confirms-hamas-atrocities/

 
 

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Charred remains and a CT scan of the remains show a parent and child who were bound together and burned alive by Hamas terrorists on Oct. 7. Two spinal columns—one of an adult and one of a child—can be seen in the scan. The pair were likely embracing as they burned

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“The proportion of bodies we’ve received who are charred is high,” Kugel explained. “Many have gunshot wounds in their hands, showing they put their hands up to their faces in defense. Many were burned alive in their homes. … We know they were burned alive because there is soot in their trachea, their throats—meaning they were still breathing when set on fire.”

The single mercy, Kugel said—if there is one to be found—is that the burned victims likely died from carbon dioxide and soot inhalation before the fire killed them.

Kugel also explained that the age range of the victims spans from 3 months to 80 or 90 years old. Many bodies, including those of babies, are without heads.

Asked if they were decapitated, Kugel answered yes. Although he admits that, given the circumstances, it’s difficult to ascertain whether they were decapitated before or after death, as well as how they were beheaded, “whether cut off by knife or blown off by RPG,” he explained.

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Fighting back tears, Israeli forensic pathologist Dr. Hagar Mizrahi explained that “as you know, the Jewish people must bury their dead as soon as possible.” But as of this writing, nearly two weeks have passed since the massacre, and some 350 bodies remain unidentified. “So, the people here at Abu Kabir are doing their best to help and identify the most severe cases that arrive.”

The “blowback.” 

 

 

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2 hours ago, David Dennison said:

 

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If Israel waits around for Gazans to get rid of Hamas before making an effort at peace, they will be waiting forever. Of course, that suits the country’s far right just fine. Netanyahu and his allies have done a poor job concealing their tacit support for Hamas — they reason that as long as Gaza is under the control of a terrorist organization, there can be no serious talk of a Palestinian state. Supporters of Israel often say that no country could be expected to tolerate a terror group hell-bent on its destruction, operating right on its borders. The outrageous truth is that Israel, under a series of increasingly right-wing governments, has been doing exactly that for nearly two decades. Netanyahu’s cynical policy of allowing Hamas to operate while keeping Gaza under siege and periodically “mowing the grass” with bombing campaigns to contain Palestinian militias’ ability to launch attacks has been a great disservice to both Israel and the Palestinians.

If the war leads to both Hamas and Netanyahu’s right-wing coalition losing popular legitimacy and exiting the scene, it would be a silver lining to a very dark cloud, since neither Israelis nor Palestinians deserve the mediocre leadership they’ve been saddled with. But at least the Israelis have some power to change that if they want to. The people of Gaza do not.

 

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I've largely disengaged from this thread, so forgive me if I'm misreading things.

I see repetition of the Hamas atrocities or added details about them. This is newsworthy, but is it relevant to the fate of civilians in GAZA? Is the idea that should the right combination of ghoulish cruelty shown by the (seems to me) universally condemned Hamas attack will lead to a, "Well, there it is. That's really bad. Kill them all," moment?

I also don't object to the newsworthiness of other theories regarding the explosion near the Gaza hospital. In fact, those firmly of the belief that the Israelis are not culpable should be pleased with each theory that is later debunked. It strengthens their case. I also see this discussion as irrelelevant to the fate of the civilians in Gaza.

I have no idea what the solution is, nor do I think my lack of solution is relevant to the fate of civilians in Gaza. Why should they pay for lack of imagination on my own and others' parts? Why should they pay for the intransigence of various politcal and state entities?

I will take the stand that I don't want the US backing either side militarily. The plea that Israel must survive sounds kind of absurd when they have a conventional military poised to do whatever they want to Gaza. The question of right to exist does not concern Israel in this moment. It's an old tune that is no longer applicable no matter how moving its melody.

We shouldn't be aiding either Israel or Hamas in this conflict. We've likely sacrificed our key value as a detached broker in the conflict. I would support humanitarion aid for non combatants wherever they are. I would abandon the idea of sending a fucking carrier group to that coast as a show of force against mighty Gaza. 

We play this wrong. We stick with cheap theater for the excitable crowd back home. I'm an American and look to American concerns and reputation. I'm moved by the horror of the Hamas attack. I'm not moved to support an exagerrated military response that will bring horrors to a new set of civilians that are no less important to me than Israeli ones.

Israel is not a state in our union. I don't feel like an attack on them is an attack on us. This is action between two foreign parties.

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3 minutes ago, RomaVicta said:

I've largely disengaged from this thread, so forgive me if I'm misreading things.

I see repetition of the Hamas atrocities or added details about them. This is newsworthy, but is it relevant to the fate of civilians in GAZA? Is the idea that should the right combination of ghoulish cruelty shown by the (seems to me) universally condemned Hamas attack will lead to a, "Well, there it is. That's really bad. Kill them all," moment?

I also don't object to the newsworthiness of other theories regarding the explosion near the Gaza hospital. In fact, those firmly of the belief that the Israelis are not culpable should be pleased with each theory that is later debunked. It strengthens their case. I also see this discussion as irrelelevant to the fate of the civilians in Gaza.

I have no idea what the solution is, nor do I think my lack of solution is relevant to the fate of civilians in Gaza. Why should they pay for lack of imagination on my own and others' parts? Why should they pay for the intransigence of various politcal and state entities?

I will take the stand that I don't want the US backing either side militarily. The plea that Israel must survive sounds kind of absurd when they have a conventional military poised to do whatever they want to Gaza. The question of right to exist does not concern Israel in this moment. It's an old tune that is no longer applicable no matter how moving its melody.

We shouldn't be aiding either Israel or Hamas in this conflict. We've likely sacrificed our key value as a detached broker in the conflict. I would support humanitarion aid for non combatants wherever they are. I would abandon the idea of sending a fucking carrier group to that coast as a show of force against mighty Gaza. 

We play this wrong. We stick with cheap theater for the excitable crowd back home. I'm an American and look to American concerns and reputation. I'm moved by the horror of the Hamas attack. I'm not moved to support an exagerrated military response that will bring horrors to a new set of civilians that are no less important to me than Israeli ones.

Israel is not a state in our union. I don't feel like an attack on them is an attack on us. This is action between two foreign parties.

Iran and Russia aid Hamas. Not funding Israel equals genocide. 

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3 hours ago, David Dennison said:

 

These numbers are actually horrifying. 
 

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. In a Washington Institute poll in July, a 57 percent majority indicated a positive opinion of Hamas, but greater numbers expressed positive views of both Fatah (the secular party in charge of the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank) and other armed groups. However, over 60 percent supported Hamas maintaining a ceasefire with Israel, and 50 percent said Hamas should stop calling for Israel’s destruction and support a two-state solution instead. Other recent polling from the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research found that 77 percent of Gazans want new legislative and presidential elections in the Palestinian territories, but 67 percent of all Palestinians don’t see that happening anytime soon. In a hypothetical election, Hamas would win slightly over Fatah, 34-31 percent, but a 43 percent plurality of Palestinians believe neither group deserves to represent them.

Over half have a positive view of Hamas. Only half are willing to say that Hamas needs to stop trying to completely destroy Israel. In an election, Hamas would win even though a plurality wants neither. 
 

In nearly any parliamentary system a 34 percent result is a win and you get the first chance to form a government. In 1933, that happened in Germany when the NDSAP won 33 percent.

There are a lot of people getting salty when I point out that the genocidal extremists who quote Protocols of the Elders of Zion and promise to fight corruption poll remarkably similarly to some earlier genocidal extremists who quoted the Protocols of the Elders of Zion and promised to fight corruption. 

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7 minutes ago, RomaVicta said:

That's all you got? 

It’s all that’s needed. We can’t be neutral. 

8 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

These numbers are actually horrifying. 
 

Over half have a positive view of Hamas. Only half are willing to say that Hamas needs to stop trying to completely destroy Israel. In an election, Hamas would win even though a plurality wants neither. 
 

In nearly any parliamentary system a 34 percent result is a win and you get the first chance to form a government. In 1933, that happened in Germany when the NDSAP won 33 percent.

There are a lot of people getting salty when I point out that the genocidal extremists who quote Protocols of the Elders of Zion and promise to fight corruption poll remarkably similarly to some earlier genocidal extremists who quoted the Protocols of the Elders of Zion and promised to fight corruption. 

They will not address this point, but good luck. 

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