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SmokeyBear1861

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7 hours ago, bolverk said:

@Foosters Tagging you because I don't know if you'll get a notification when I share your post here.

 

LinkedIn Issues Warning to Site Shaming Pro-Palestinian Sentiment
The site listed thousands of people and grouped them by their workplaces after they posted on the Israeli-Hamas conflict.

Online posts asking to “#PrayForPalestine.” Entreaties for peace. Pleas to “Free Gaza.”

Over the last 10 days, a website called anti-israel-employees.com published more than 17,000 posts, which one of the people behind the site said had been taken mainly from LinkedIn. The site, which claimed to be a “global live feed of potentially supportive sentiments for terrorism among company employees,” listed thousands of people and grouped them by their workplaces, in an apparent attempt to shame them for their sentiments on the Israeli-Hamas conflict.

The website, which was taken offline for a day before being migrated to a new web address, named employees of major international corporations, including Amazon, Mastercard and Ernst & Young, and shared their profile photos, LinkedIn pages and posts.

Itai Liptz, a hedge fund manager who said he was one of the people behind the original site, said that its goal was to “expose people who supported Hamas publicly.”

“We wanted to have it documented and a record,” he said. “If I work in this company, but I see my friends on LinkedIn celebrating and praising Hamas, then I’m not feeling safe.”

But the site also highlighted posts from people who did not explicitly show support for Hamas, according to posts seen by The New York Times. Some people used hash tags like “#GazaUnderAttack” or sought to draw attention to the humanitarian crisis in the Gaza Strip. The site asked users to submit posts that they believed should be exposed, and included a numeric “hate score” for companies.

The site, which was created 10 days ago, comes amid a wider debate over online expression during a fraught international conflict. Similar lists have also been created to track college students who have spoken out in support of Palestinians, while Meta, the parent company of Instagram and Facebook, said it took down nearly 800,000 pieces of Hebrew and Arabic language content for violating its rules in the three days after the Hamas attacks on Oct. 7.

Some people who were highlighted on the site have already deleted their LinkedIn posts or their LinkedIn profiles. Mr. Liptz, who said he did not expect the site to become as popular as it did after spreading via WhatsApp groups, called the far-ranging capture of all pro-Palestinian sentiment a mistake.

“If somebody says ‘Free Palestine’ that is totally OK, and we shouldn’t put it on our website,” he said on Saturday. “We just want to make sure the filters are there because they have the right to say that.”

The site, however, was back online on Sunday at a new web address and still displayed the posts and names of people that Mr. Liptz had said would be removed. Now located at an Israel-specific domain, the site is being overseen by Guy Ophir, a lawyer in Israel, who said the team moved it to a new address after receiving a cease-and-desist letter from LinkedIn.

A spokesman for LinkedIn said the company determined that the site had used automated programs to extract content from the platform, a practice known as scraping, which is a violation of its rules. Mr. Liptz denied that his site extracted the LinkedIn information through scraping, while Mr. Ophir said he believed that LinkedIn was trying to infringe on his right to free speech.

“We are not going to remove the website,” he said. “We are willing to fight them here.”

The site has been a subject of discussion at Meta, the parent company of Facebook and Instagram, and LinkedIn, where employees have expressed concern about the chilling effect it could have on online speech.

“People are scraping pro-Palestine LinkedIn posts and adding them to a database of ‘terror supporters,’” one employee wrote last Wednesday in a note on an internal Meta message board that was seen by The Times.

Other Meta employees were in disbelief that expressing support for Palestine was equated with supporting terrorism.

“The lack of understanding,” a Meta employee wrote, “is beyond insensitive and cruel.”

 

oh that is some bullshit. 

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22 minutes ago, SL Xpress said:

Are there a lot of you that think a two state solution is actually reasonable? 

Only if the civilian populations of Israel and the Palestinian areas are actually respected by their leadership, and their leadership works for what's best for their people.

So no, it'll never happen.

22 minutes ago, SL Xpress said:

To me the fundamental question is, do you believe Israel has a right to exist as a country of Jews, or do you feel like the displacement of Palestinians to form the state of Israel is a modern act of colonization that someday needs to be rectified? 

Doesn't really matter about any such questions, because Israel exists in the here and now, it's not the mid-1940s, and Israel has nukes and nobody is dislodging them or going to make them rectify any situations.

22 minutes ago, SL Xpress said:

I don't think Arabs in general (add in non secular Iranians, Turks, and Pakistanis), and Palestinians specifically, are actually going to be satisfied over the long term until Israel ceases to exist.

The Turks will do whatever is in their best interest at that moment in time (witness their at-times very close cooperation with Israel over the decades, or their machinations in NATO). They share a common enemy with Israel.  Pakistan has India shit to worry about long before it thinks about Israel.  Iran has a reckoning it's going to face one of these years in terms of how it treats its youth and women, as well as the fuckery with Russia and in Syria.  Palestinians can't make Israel cease to exist, any more than I can make Sela Ward show up on my doorstep looking for love.

22 minutes ago, SL Xpress said:

 I believe they're saying they're never again going meekly into the ovens and gas chambers. 

Which is why they obtained nukes as quickly as they could, after the various wars they suffered at the hands of their neighbors.  Those nukes really calmed a lot of nations down.  It was like Jules producing a big fucking hand cannon and Honey Bunny realizing that shit was going to go very wrong for her.

22 minutes ago, SL Xpress said:

I have never believed a true peace in the area is possible. Maybe if Arabs wanted to allow Palestinians into their country to assimilate, but neither Palestinian leaders nor Arab rulers want that even a little bit.

Anything is politically possible if you have the right people at the helm.  Unfortunately for both sides, the leadership has a hammer and they see everything as a problem that can only be treated with a hammer.

It's like Republicans here in the US that believe that if only there was a big-enough wall on the Mexican border, it would solve everything, when in fact it solves nothing - a wall does not remove the conditions that exist back in the homelands of those coming here illegally, and it does not remove the amount of money those folks can make here (in many cases, being paid to them by people who gleefully post on Facebook or Free Republic or whatever that we need a bigger wall). If you want to slow down illegal immigration, you have to go back to their homelands and solve the root problems (poverty, political instability, food instability, etc) and help raise their standard of living.  Solve the problems that cause them to come here so that they never get the urge to come here.  It's the same shit that the Anglo/European ancestors of many Americans faced, and the same reason why they came here in the 1500s-1900s.

Same goes here - you need Israeli leadership who is willing to put themselves in the shoes of the Palestinians, and you need Palestinian leadership that can also understand the Israel mindset of existentialism, and that can tap into the 1.8 billion Muslims around the world, and you need both to come together and help each other, and you need to raise the standard of living for the Palestinians, or figure out a pipeline for getting them out of that area and into the rest of the world.  There had to be plenty of Palestinians who probably knew something was up before the Hamas attack, and you need to ask  why they didn't drop a dime and let the Israelis know that strange things were afoot. You may not be able to reach the older generations, but if you can reach the younger ones and keep them from falling under the lure of the groups like Hamas, you can get started down that road.

 

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22 minutes ago, SL Xpress said:

This doesn't even touch on the yearning for a new Caliphate

Anybody yearning for a new caliphate needs to stop worrying about Israel and start trying to make it happen in the 50+ Islamic nations.  Even if the Palestinians managed to do some kind of far-fetched caliphate that took over Israel, said caliphate would quickly be snuffed out by surrounding Muslim countries that rightfully see it as an existential threat.

22 minutes ago, SL Xpress said:

, and the impotence of the Islamic world in the face of Western dominance

They aren't that impotent - their money (US dollars) still spends well, and some, not all, but some in that region who rely on the almighty oil exports are looking down the road to a time when declining oil exports will reduce their power and importance in the world.  The Saudis and their $500 billion Neom city (which has no provisions for taking in Palestinians) is a batshit example, but Qatar, UAE, etc. are all trying to diversity.

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Israel’s submarine deterrents are diesel-electric boats with a constrained underwater range that carry nuclear-capable cruise missiles, these boats and missiles are exactly good for regional deployment and really not at all for global deterrence patrols pointed at “the rest of the world.” Those patrols are done by nuclear submarines that stay submerged for months at a time and carry warheads on ICBMs that can reach out and touch anyone, anywhere.  Israel has aircraft capable of deploying nuclear weapons that are also limited range and utility outside a regional conflict, they do not possess long-range strategic bombers.  They have an unknown quantity of Jericho III ICBMs. Those are not “pointed” really at anywhere, that’s not how it works. It is impossible to imagine their first use against a nuclear alliance like NATO. 
 

Also, “never again is a threat” against “us.”  Holy shit that “legitimate criticism of the state if Israel” mask really slipped a long way down. 

Edited by 956 Worldwide
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9 hours ago, linux said:

With sufficient money this singular issue is moot, if given a choice between 1 million dollars and a parcel of land I think this is resolvable.

Note the hundreds of billions spent on defense.

The small minority that wants to return should then be allowed to return.

 

By return, do you mean 

1. Allowed to be a citizen of Israel

2. Return to the West Bank

3. Remove Israeli from land and returned to Palestinian in Israel 

4. Remove Israel from land and returned to Palestinian in West Bank 

Follow up.

What shall be the consequences of a ceasefire is broken in the future? 
 

 

 

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So, sidebar question.  Muslim Arabs haven't always been fundamentalist jihadists.  They've had some pretty solid societies over history that were tolerant and educated, at least that is what I have been mostly led to believe/understand.

What caused them to become such "shitheads"?  Fall of the Ottoman Empire and falling behind the west?

Is there any hope that the Arab world will moderate?

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1 hour ago, TwiceHorn said:

What caused them to become such "shitheads"?  Fall of the Ottoman Empire and falling behind the west?

England and France drawing up arbitrary borders after the Fall of the Ottoman Empire.  The Empire in 1914 - you can pretty. much see a lot of the hot spots were contained within one dominion.

OttomanEmpire1914.png

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2 hours ago, Brian Fantana said:

You're claiming misrepresentation while literally doing that. The Israeli people want peace, Netanyahu and his government demonstrably do not.

I don't know why you continually demand perfect solutions from people who are simply advocating against genocide. I mean, again, I do, I just want to hear you say it.

Perfect? You haven't offered any solutions.  Hamas has got to go, is easy to say.  How is the real part.  So how? Who does it?

Netanyahu was part of a deal with Yasser Arafat, that Palestinians broke.  He was working on a deal with Saudi Arabia, that was delayed if not broken by this recent attack.  So claiming both sides is just heuristics typical of message board users when discussing complicated issues.    

Ultimately, I think he has to go as well.  Someone not emotionally tied to the bad faith agreements made in the past needs to take over.   I don't see him losing power in this climate where people are dodging rockets.  You?   

And no, the Israeli people do not want peace.  Some want it.   Some do not.   Same goes for Palestinians.  They also wear shoes.   And sometimes they pee and poo.  Any other obvious shit you need to point out?  I like sex and money.  

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15 minutes ago, Nivek said:

Hamas has got to go, is easy to say.  How is the real part.  So how? Who does it?

It's like saying MAGA has got to go. I agree, but at this point it's more of an ideology. You can't kill your way out of this. In fact, the more civilians you indiscriminately kill, the stronger it gets.

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26 minutes ago, Nivek said:

Perfect? You haven't offered any solutions.  Hamas has got to go, is easy to say.  How is the real part.  So how? Who does it?

Netanyahu was part of a deal with Yasser Arafat, that Palestinians broke.  He was working on a deal with Saudi Arabia, that was delayed if not broken by this recent attack.  So claiming both sides is just heuristics typical of message board users when discussing complicated issues.    

Ultimately, I think he has to go as well.  Someone not emotionally tied to the bad faith agreements made in the past needs to take over.   I don't see him losing power in this climate where people are dodging rockets.  You?   

And no, the Israeli people do not want peace.  Some want it.   Some do not.   Same goes for Palestinians.  They also wear shoes.   And sometimes they pee and poo.  Any other obvious shit you need to point out?  I like sex and money.  

I actually have offered solutions (in fact the only solution that in my mind would result in the fewest lives lost) as anyone who has actually read my posts in this thread can attest to, you're just so horny to say that sentence as a part of your personal propaganda universe, you just can't fucking help yourself. I'm not going to type it out again here for you, you're welcome to actually read posts in this thread.

At any rate, it's a stupid fucking ask and you should stop the bullshit conversational gatekeeping. Criticism of one side doesn't require perfect victims on the other, nor does it require solutions to be offered, so you should stop trying to debate people that way.

No human person has any fucking idea how to implement a good solution that results in the fewest human casualties and ridding the world of Hamas and Netanyahu's government. much less any of us dipshits that post on Surly.

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3 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

So, sidebar question.  Muslim Arabs haven't always been fundamentalist jihadists.  They've had some pretty solid societies over history that were tolerant and educated, at least that is what I have been mostly led to believe/understand.

What caused them to become such "shitheads"?  Fall of the Ottoman Empire and falling behind the west?

Is there any hope that the Arab world will moderate?

I think the simulation has an embedded rule that causes major religions to go on murderous purges and violent conquests roughly 1000-1400 years after the founding.

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6 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Israel’s submarine deterrents are diesel-electric boats with a constrained underwater range that carry nuclear-capable cruise missiles, these boats and missiles are exactly good for regional deployment and really not at all for global deterrence patrols pointed at “the rest of the world.” Those patrols are done by nuclear submarines that stay submerged for months at a time and carry warheads on ICBMs that can reach out and touch anyone, anywhere.  Israel has aircraft capable of deploying nuclear weapons that are also limited range and utility outside a regional conflict, they do not possess long-range strategic bombers.  They have an unknown quantity of Jericho III ICBMs. Those are not “pointed” really at anywhere, that’s not how it works. It is impossible to imagine their first use against a nuclear alliance like NATO. 
 

Also, “never again is a threat” against “us.”  Holy shit that “legitimate criticism of the state if Israel” mask really slipped a long way down. 

German Diesel Electric subs in WWII patrolled all the way to the Caribbean.

I did not think up Operation Samson. That is never again in a modern context.

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5 hours ago, Neonmoon said:

By return, do you mean 

1. Allowed to be a citizen of Israel

2. Return to the West Bank

3. Remove Israeli from land and returned to Palestinian in Israel 

4. Remove Israel from land and returned to Palestinian in West Bank 

Follow up.

What shall be the consequences of a ceasefire is broken in the future? 
 

 

 

I don't think citizenship is demanded, just permanent residence. They could turn around and sell that land as well.

As for the breaking the cease fire, just use the justice system sheesh. If a returnee breaks the law put him in prison.

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1 hour ago, Brian Fantana said:

I actually have offered solutions (in fact the only solution that in my mind would result in the fewest lives lost) as anyone who has actually read my posts in this thread can attest to, you're just so horny to say that sentence as a part of your personal propaganda universe, you just can't fucking help yourself. I'm not going to type it out again here for you, you're welcome to actually read posts in this thread.

At any rate, it's a stupid fucking ask and you should stop the bullshit conversational gatekeeping. Criticism of one side doesn't require perfect victims on the other, nor does it require solutions to be offered, so you should stop trying to debate people that way.

No human person has any fucking idea how to implement a good solution that results in the fewest human casualties and ridding the world of Hamas and Netanyahu's government. much less any of us dipshits that post on Surly.

Personal propaganda is a nice attempt at alliteration.  Conversational gatekeeping is a nice spin as well on someone asking for realistic solutions not alternative reality based solutions.

What you proposed was that the US and others "erode their support with empathy and diplomacy."   Nice words and sentiment, exactly what they had with the Oslo Accords and look what happened?  Israel handed them weapons to help police themselves and within 5 years the agreement was broken.  What good is diplomacy and empathy when it is one-sided?  What good are agreements/treaties that are not honored?  How long and how much pain should Israelis' put up with while waiting for  Hamas to have a change of heart or to be replaced by something more moderate?  

The idea that changing the variables that lead them down this path is also nice.  What variables are those specifically? How does one change them?

It is nice to claim you are on the side of righteousness and peace and anti-genocide.  Not many people would disagree with this.  The path to this place is where the disagreement happens.   

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, linux said:

German Diesel Electric subs in WWII patrolled all the way to the Caribbean.

I did not think up Operation Samson. That is never again in a modern context.

And in World War II our nuclear delivery system was a B-29 and we flew fleets of B-17s above Germany. What Germany did with their fleet in WWII is entirely irrelevant to whether or not a Dolphin-class boat armed with cruise missiles, not ICBMs, is suitable for a global at-sea deterrent capability. It isn’t, no amount of doubling down will make it one, that platform and system is entirely designed for something else. There is a reason every single nation that attempts to maintain a global at-sea deterrent uses nuclear submarines with ICBMs, only the PRC has even built a (a single) non-nuclear ballistic missile boat and they use it as a testing platform.

You’re also grotesquely misstating the “Samson Option” (not Operation Samson).  That option, which is not explicitly formulated in keeping with nuclear ambiguity, is the ability to engage in a massive retaliatory strike against the adversary  in the event Israel is going to be destroyed conventionally or by other means.  This is not materially different than any other nuclear nation’s deterrence posture is or has been and it’s at the bottom of all deterrence theory itself.  It is not a threat or doctrine to launch a whirlwind of nuclear weapons at friendly or neutral nations. 
 

Finally— claiming that “never again in a modern context” means nuclear blackmail against the entire world is a super-fucked up, unhinged, and untethered to reality thing to say and really tells on you. I shouldn’t have to explain why that is. 
 

 

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1 hour ago, Nivek said:

Personal propaganda is a nice attempt at alliteration.  Conversational gatekeeping is a nice spin as well on someone asking for realistic solutions not alternative reality based solutions.

What you proposed was that the US and others "erode their support with empathy and diplomacy."   Nice words and sentiment, exactly what they had with the Oslo Accords and look what happened?  Israel handed them weapons to help police themselves and within 5 years the agreement was broken.  What good is diplomacy and empathy when it is one-sided?  What good are agreements/treaties that are not honored?  How long and how much pain should Israelis' put up with while waiting for  Hamas to have a change of heart or to be replaced by something more moderate?  

The idea that changing the variables that lead them down this path is also nice.  What variables are those specifically? How does one change them?

It is nice to claim you are on the side of righteousness and peace and anti-genocide.  Not many people would disagree with this.  The path to this place is where the disagreement happens.  

Ok, what's your fucking point? I said very clearly that it's not an easy or fast solution and that it probably wouldn't work because both sides are led by absolute psychos. History very clearly teaches us the lesson that terrorist organizations only really go away when a diplomatic solution is reached. If you destroy them and squeeze Gazans harder, something worse will just take its place.

What's your alternative? Genocide? Because it sounds like you just want to say the solution is genocide but you know what the reaction will be.

It is absolutely hilarious to me that people like you continue to ascribe only bad intentions on the Palestinian side, and only good ones on the Israeli side. Get fucking real, you're just lying to yourself and everyone else at this point. If you want to spout ahistorical propaganda, go fucking post on TexAgs.

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Just now, Brian Fantana said:

What's your alternative? Genocide? Because it sounds like you just want to say the solution is genocide but you know what the reaction will be.

The solution?  I sure as hell don't say that.

The most likely outcome?  Sure seems like it.  But remember, I think very little of humanity and am convinced that our true nature is depravity and evil.  So, there's that.  One side will successfully genocide the other, and the "winning" side will be cursed for eternity as being genocidal assholes.  And the world will keep spinning, until the next such scenario, and the next, and the next.  We're a shit species.  Get used to it.

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18 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

The solution?  I sure as hell don't say that.

The most likely outcome?  Sure seems like it.  But remember, I think very little of humanity and am convinced that our true nature is depravity and evil.  So, there's that.  One side will successfully genocide the other, and the "winning" side will be cursed for eternity as being genocidal assholes.  And the world will keep spinning, until the next such scenario, and the next, and the next.  We're a shit species.  Get used to it.

I mean we have the same dim view of humanity, but this is just a coward's way of rationalizing possible future atrocities. I prefer to consider solutions that could work, no matter how unlikely. I'm 40 years old, I'm not ready to give up on my own personal humanity yet.

e: Also, people like him are not looking at it from the same angle as you are. You're convinced humanity is inherently depraved, that's fine. People like him are convinced that Palestinians are simply inferior, that they have a "cultural" problem that totally isn't caused by the circumstances of their existence, etc. I'm sure you can see the parallel I'm trying to draw here.

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2 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

I mean we have the same dim view of humanity, but this is just a coward's way of rationalizing possible future atrocities. I prefer to consider solutions that could work, no matter how unlikely. I'm 40 years old, I'm not ready to give up on my own personal humanity yet.

You'll get there.

I'm not rationalizing shit.  I've just realized that this is what humanity does best, no matter how many times we learn the lesson it doesn't stick, we keep doing it, and we're going to keep doing it, forever and ever.  Makes me want to fucking puke.

But I'm with you to some extent -- I'm a fan of running headlong into a brick wall repeatedly, because fuck that fucking wall.  I'm just sanguine enough to know our chances of ever breaking through are immeasurably small.

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39 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

 I'm 40 years old, I'm not ready to give up on my own personal humanity yet.

I think I'm only about a year or two younger (52) than Brisket and can be jaded as fuck too. Trust me, your 40s will wear you down. Shit really seems to start around 43 for whatever reason. This wisdom was imparted to me on my 40th birthday as a warning or maybe a curse.

But I'll tell you something else, remember your humanity; it's all you've got. Also, don't lose your trust in humanity; it's all *we've* got.

I still believe most people are good and have good intentions, but there's that fucking one-third of humanity who are gullible, stupid, greedy, and/or evil out there who fuck shit up.

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1 hour ago, 956 Worldwide said:

And in World War II our nuclear delivery system was a B-29 and we flew fleets of B-17s above Germany. What Germany did with their fleet in WWII is entirely irrelevant to whether or not a Dolphin-class boat armed with cruise missiles, not ICBMs, is suitable for a global at-sea deterrent capability. It isn’t, no amount of doubling down will make it one, that platform and system is entirely designed for something else. There is a reason every single nation that attempts to maintain a global at-sea deterrent uses nuclear submarines with ICBMs, only the PRC has even built a (a single) non-nuclear ballistic missile boat and they use it as a testing platform.

You’re also grotesquely misstating the “Samson Option” (not Operation Samson).  That option, which is not explicitly formulated in keeping with nuclear ambiguity, is the ability to engage in a massive retaliatory strike against the adversary  in the event Israel is going to be destroyed conventionally or by other means.  This is not materially different than any other nuclear nation’s deterrence posture is or has been and it’s at the bottom of all deterrence theory itself.  It is not a threat or doctrine to launch a whirlwind of nuclear weapons at friendly or neutral nations. 
 

Finally— claiming that “never again in a modern context” means nuclear blackmail against the entire world is a super-fucked up, unhinged, and untethered to reality thing to say and really tells on you. I shouldn’t have to explain why that is. 
 

 

Read up on Operation Neuland, U-boats sank like 20+ tankers in the Caribbean thousands of nautical miles away from docks and pens, the idea that Israel can not launch a single salvo in the absolute worst case scenario, is ridiculous, would a SSBN be more successful? hell yeah of course but a suicide run from a Dolphin class that allies chose to ignore. Yeah that is keeping me up at night if Israel really really starts losing.

An SSK running on batteries are the most silent subs in the world.

 

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1 hour ago, Brisketexan said:

The solution?  I sure as hell don't say that.

The most likely outcome?  Sure seems like it.  But remember, I think very little of humanity and am convinced that our true nature is depravity and evil.  So, there's that.  One side will successfully genocide the other, and the "winning" side will be cursed for eternity as being genocidal assholes.  And the world will keep spinning, until the next such scenario, and the next, and the next.  We're a shit species.  Get used to it.

i mean this in all seriousness and not at all snarky...if you truly feel the way you express yourself here, how do you even get out of bed every day? i've seen you post proud and inspiring things about both your children and your wife... how do you even say supportive and encouraging things to them, especially your kids as they are just starting life? do you have to make yourself lie to them so they don't just give up entirely?

part of me feels that way, which is why i'm genuinely asking... and part of me is like 'damn, dude, have a little hope for your kids sake at least'.

sorry, off topic i know. 

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25 minutes ago, mchookem said:

i mean this in all seriousness and not at all snarky...if you truly feel the way you express yourself here, how do you even get out of bed every day? i've seen you post proud and inspiring things about both your children and your wife... how do you even say supportive and encouraging things to them, especially your kids as they are just starting life? do you have to make yourself lie to them so they don't just give up entirely?

part of me feels that way, which is why i'm genuinely asking... and part of me is like 'damn, dude, have a little hope for your kids sake at least'.

sorry, off topic i know. 

Because "fuck you," that's why.  Seriously (not you in in particular, I mean the ethos).  Because we should not go gentle into that good night.  Because we should rage against the dying of the light.  It is highly unlikely to do any good.  But I can't help but keep doing it.  Because even a 1 in a million chance is still a chance.

And Michael Sheen recited it brilliantly:

 

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49 minutes ago, linux said:

Read up on Operation Neuland, U-boats sank like 20+ tankers in the Caribbean thousands of nautical miles away from docks and pens, the idea that Israel can not launch a single salvo in the absolute worst case scenario, is ridiculous, would a SSBN be more successful? hell yeah of course but a suicide run from a Dolphin class that allies chose to ignore. Yeah that is keeping me up at night if Israel really really starts losing.

An SSK running on batteries are the most silent subs in the world.

 

This is absolutely some of the most unhinged conspiracy theory shit I’ve a seen on this board. “Israel has a plan to destroy the world and shoot nukes at us if it’s losing a war,” FFS.  What information waters are you swimming in? 

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17 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Because "fuck you," that's why.  Seriously (not you in in particular, I mean the ethos).  Because we should not go gentle into that good night.  Because we should rage against the dying of the light.  It is highly unlikely to do any good.  But I can't help but keep doing it.  Because even a 1 in a million chance is still a chance.

I don't disagree at all. Not to compare traumas, I'd be curious to know what has happened in your life to make you so jaded. I worked as a victims' assistance coordinator for years and have seen and heard shit that would (and did, me, which is why I am a tech nerd now) give most people crippling nightmares, and yet I still hold out hope for peace.

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2 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

You'll get there.

I'm not rationalizing shit.  I've just realized that this is what humanity does best, no matter how many times we learn the lesson it doesn't stick, we keep doing it, and we're going to keep doing it, forever and ever.  Makes me want to fucking puke.

But I'm with you to some extent -- I'm a fan of running headlong into a brick wall repeatedly, because fuck that fucking wall.  I'm just sanguine enough to know our chances of ever breaking through are immeasurably small.


Awkward Season 2 GIF by The Office
 

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1 hour ago, mchookem said:

i mean this in all seriousness and not at all snarky...if you truly feel the way you express yourself here, how do you even get out of bed every day? i've seen you post proud and inspiring things about both your children and your wife... how do you even say supportive and encouraging things to them, especially your kids as they are just starting life? do you have to make yourself lie to them so they don't just give up entirely?

part of me feels that way, which is why i'm genuinely asking... and part of me is like 'damn, dude, have a little hope for your kids sake at least'.

sorry, off topic i know. 

Both things can be true. You can hold a very low opinion of mankind based on, well, our entire recorded history*, and still lead a very productive life that makes the world a better place for the people around you. Additionally, believing that man remains a pretty dumb creature incapable of evolving into something better doesn't give you permission to treat people in a shitty way. We should always strive to leave the world a little better place.    

*Of the past 3,400 years, it is believed that humans have been entirely at peace for 268 of them, or just 8 percent of recorded history. Source: NY Times

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8 minutes ago, TreatyOak said:

*Of the past 3,400 years, it is believed that humans have been entirely at peace for 268 of them, or just 8 percent of recorded history.

....and that's almost certainly because our record-keeping for those 268 years was shit, and missed a war or two or a hundred.

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3 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

I'm a fan of running headlong into a brick wall repeatedly, because fuck that fucking wall.  I'm just sanguine enough to know our chances of ever breaking through are immeasurably small.

It can happen. Don't give up hope.

 

giphy (4).gif

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6 hours ago, Brian Fantana said:

Ok, what's your fucking point? I said very clearly that it's not an easy or fast solution and that it probably wouldn't work because both sides are led by absolute psychos. History very clearly teaches us the lesson that terrorist organizations only really go away when a diplomatic solution is reached. If you destroy them and squeeze Gazans harder, something worse will just take its place.

What's your alternative? Genocide? Because it sounds like you just want to say the solution is genocide but you know what the reaction will be.

It is absolutely hilarious to me that people like you continue to ascribe only bad intentions on the Palestinian side, and only good ones on the Israeli side. Get fucking real, you're just lying to yourself and everyone else at this point. If you want to spout ahistorical propaganda, go fucking post on TexAgs.

This is a lot of bullshit in that post, but let's take a stab at it.  

My point was that naive people like to promote fantasy solutions that are not grounded in reality and I pointed out that your ideas while nice, are flawed because they have been tried and rejected in favor of more violence, and thus not realistic to try again with the very same people who broke it and just launched a massive attack that killed several hundred people.  (I don't know the final numbers, and it is not relevant)  

Netanyahu is not an absolute psycho.  Asshole, OK, but he upheld the agreement of Oslo even though he didn't broker it or favor it.   He was also working on an agreement with the Saudis, so there is precedence for him working with others.  Now do Hamas and don't say Iran.  And before you try to weasel out of it, both were elected.    

History teaches us no such thing.  I already demonstrated that earlier in the thread.  I will just refer you to it for a lesson. Just because you hear some buzzword or phrase that others like to banter about doesn't mean it's true.  I suppose if you just ignore facts or are ignorant of history, then it might seem true. 

When did I absolve Israel of their bad actions?  Point to that post.   When did I ever say they didn't have blood on their hands?  Point to that post.  Since you declared this, you should have the receipts.  It should be easy to find.   Saying that both groups have blood on their hands is not false-equivocating, it is simply a statement of fact.  When I listed how the Palestinians have behaved and caused upheaval in Jordan and Lebanon, not one of you wanted to comment on that.  When I mentioned that Egypt bulldozes Palestinian homes, and asked why, none of you dared to respond or even confirm or deny it.  Why?  Because you act with dissonance.   I think you picked a side, got emotional, and take this personally.   

You are wishcasting now with the Texags and ahistorical comments.  

To Brisket you suggested you favor solutions that could work, even if unlikely.  I am a bit more grounded in reality it seems.  I mean, if we could invent a time-machine we could have another solution or two.  And with that time-machine, maybe if we brought vaccines and gave them to the Jews to distribute to the Germanic peoples they wouldn't have had a history of pogroms and then maybe a bit of gratitude to the Jews living there could have fostered and they could have lived in harmony and Adolph would have just been a middling painter who while not remembered, put a few pieces of art in some homes and offices for the future.  I mean, there is a shot right?  We should consider this right?  Just gotta get that first part finished.   What is your definition of unlikely?  Surely not the time machine plan.   Define it.  Just offer a new agreement like Oslo?  Hand Hamas over some more guns and ask them to police themselves?  It might work.  

Another difference between us is that you refuse to acknowledge the difference between the ruling parties, you attempt to false equivocate the actions and the governments of both the Palestinians and Israeli's.   You talk of diplomacy and recognition either not acknowledging that it was tried and how/why it failed.   And since you simply cannot make a real case, you try to shout down or ad hominem attack your way into pretending you are the reasonable one.    You toss around accusations because you have lost.  I doubt you even see the irony of demonizing a person online that you never met, but are free to project whatever bullshit you can concoct at that moment, in order to win, while talking about bias and people not being rational.

I think Brisket is generally a happier person but who got stuck in a rut due to the cycle of bad news, and lack of positive outlets (Texas football, Trumpism, Abbott, wars, kids growing up and leaving, losing a friend/poster).  While there are moments he has shared which are inspiring (Afghan foster family) there seems to be a slight loneliness lingering.  Maybe he needs a corvette or a young mistress.     

Edited by Nivek
clarity.
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2 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

This is absolutely some of the most unhinged conspiracy theory shit I’ve a seen on this board. “Israel has a plan to destroy the world and shoot nukes at us if it’s losing a war,” FFS.  What information waters are you swimming in? 

I am relaying what Israeli extremists publish in op Ed's.

 

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2002-apr-07-op-perlmutter-story.html

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Misanthropy sucks. People do not suck. Tribalism sucks...especially in this global world. It's not people. It's teams. Theirs vs ours. 

Humans will go to incredible lengths to justify "our" side. Our side holds, fuck you. Their side holds, conspiracy. Black vs white, republicans vs democrats, Israeli vs Palestinian, north vs south, boomers vs millennials. It's not some core defect in humans. It's many, many, many years of survival and defense. Talk to anyone 1X1 and you can find common ground. Talk 2m to 2m and fuck them, protect our shit, they don't get it.

Humanity is glorious and stunning and awe inspiring. Don't give up.

Also, kill Hamas. 

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3 hours ago, linux said:

Read up on Operation Neuland, U-boats sank like 20+ tankers in the Caribbean thousands of nautical miles away from docks and pens, the idea that Israel can not launch a single salvo in the absolute worst case scenario, is ridiculous, would a SSBN be more successful? hell yeah of course but a suicide run from a Dolphin class that allies chose to ignore. Yeah that is keeping me up at night if Israel really really starts losing.

An SSK running on batteries are the most silent subs in the world.

 

Good thing it's not a theocratic ethnostate

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2 minutes ago, linux said:

I am relaying what Israeli extremists publish in op Ed's.

 

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2002-apr-07-op-perlmutter-story.html

Gotcha. You’re basing your assessment of a nation’s nuclear doctrine on an Op-Ed published in the LA Times 21 years ago by a LSU communications professor. Sounds good, not at all like you’re swimming in the shittiest parts of the Internet. Informed by German U-Boat activities in WWII. 
 

Fuck off with this shit, it’s basically Q-Anon. 

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A couple of decades look back is far too long. American foreign policy perspective operates in much shorter timeframes. Which is how we end up supporting saddam before we didn’t, overthrowing democracy outcomes in Iran, propping up the mujahideen that morphs into the taliban, etc. What we really need is more condescending state department mouthpieces to tell the people that have linger attention spans how out of touch they really are.  

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2 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

A couple of decades look back is far too long. American foreign policy perspective operates in much shorter timeframes. Which is how we end up supporting saddam before we didn’t, overthrowing democracy outcomes in Iran, propping up the mujahideen that morphs into the taliban, etc. What we really need is more condescending state department mouthpieces to tell the people that have linger attention spans how out of touch they really are.  

Right?

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1 hour ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Gotcha. You’re basing your assessment of a nation’s nuclear doctrine on an Op-Ed published in the LA Times 21 years ago by a LSU communications professor. Sounds good, not at all like you’re swimming in the shittiest parts of the Internet. Informed by German U-Boat activities in WWII. 
 

Fuck off with this shit, it’s basically Q-Anon. 

Are you expecting me to steal top secret documents to prove an internet argument?

Good fucking luck, if you want to end the discussion by stating you only accept Top Secret documents then so be it, we are done.

Don't insult my intelligence by calling Qanon cause we know they thought about it, they thought about it real hard. And because of this I too have thought about it.

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One of the major gaps with leftism (not liberalism) in general is an absolute disconnect and abandonment of any serious engagement with military affairs and how that intersect with statecraft and diplomacy. You see this even with the slow moving elimination of military history programs as a serious source of study.
 

 I’m not sure why, and it’s starting to seep in among rightist ideologues, too. Probably because it’s hard and less satisfying than reading Theory. And also because we get a lot of this from Europe that spent a few decades pretending like their militaries didn’t exist and weren’t needed. And it’s a real change from the Old Line Bolsheviks who figured out that this shit matters in a hurry. 

And so you end up with absolutely nonsense garbage that passes for actual thought about what states can do or are planning to do. Because you can gather a whole hell of a lot of insight into any nation’s intentions and plans and fears by looking at their military procurement patterns and what those platforms can do or are intended to do, or what trainings they are investing in, and on down the line.
 

Show me what airplanes they are buying, what missiles they are stockpiling, their capabilities, range, what units they are standing up. This is much more valuable that parsing party statements or op-eds by communications professors, or for sure oodles of YouTube videos. You get to a point to where a German anti-shipping campaign in during World War II is supposed to offer some sort of insight into how the modern state of Israel thinks about its nuclear deterrent and how they might use it. 
 

This shit that Linux is posting is absolutely laughable, submarine suicide runs and doomsday doctrines or whatever the fuck ever. It’s hot garbage, it wouldn’t even pass the better editors of airport novels but it’s being thrown out here like it’s some serious thing.

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22 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

 

This shit that Linux is posting is absolutely laughable, submarine suicide runs and doomsday doctrines or whatever the fuck ever. It’s hot garbage, it wouldn’t even pass the better editors of airport novels but it’s being thrown out here like it’s some serious thing.

Someone never read Clive Cussler.

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Anyway, for why this is stupid and why Germany’s Caribbean campaign was irrelevant.

U-Boats spent the vast majority of their time on the surface or snorkeling. That is how they made the Transatlantic crossing to arrive on station where they did their patrols, their underwater range and endurance was limited to basically hiding from enemy ships and planes that might see them or when they dove to attack. This worked in the 1940s because oceans are big and it’s hard to find boats and ships in them. 
 

Modern non-nuclear submarines have much better range, especially some of Israel’s Dolphins which have Air Independent Propulsion (AIP). But they still have to come up. The very best known record for an AIP-equipped submarine would allow it, in an incredible feat, to sail from Israel and very slowly make its way a bit past the Straits of Gibraltar, where it would have to surface. The cruise missiles it carries have a range of about 1,000 miles, so still splashing down well short of any U.S. targets. Israeli boats are going to be capable of significantly less than that, especially if they’ve been deployed at a time of war or heightens tensions.

And it’s absurd to think that European and U.S. space and aerial reconnaissance isn’t closely focused on “where is the nuclear weapon equipped submarine” in a time of all-out war in the Middle East when Israel is fighting for its life.  This fantasy of allies just ignoring that or submarines launching a whirlwind of missiles against European targets within that 1000 km  instead of using them against the country that attacked Israel is just stupid, it’s a fever dream. The idea of it happening against the United States isn’t even fever-dream possible. 
 

On the other hand, these platforms are very good for what Israel bought them to do, which is to be quiet when submerged mostly invulnerable to regional rivals they might go to war with.  
 

The deep silliness here is that Israel has developed an ICBM that would be more useful for this revenge fantasy.  But it’s not part of the theory, because the theory was not developed by serious people.

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Look, if you are not a technocrat that can assess military procurement manifests you really have no basis to comment on the dysfunction of American foreign policy from an outcomes oriented perspective. Get it. Just suck it up and get on the merry go round. 

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9 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Look, if you are not a technocrat that can assess military procurement manifests you really have no basis to comment on the dysfunction of American foreign policy from an outcomes oriented perspective. Get it. Just suck it up and get on the merry go round. 

I mean sure, do that, but maybe stay away from theorizing about how the Jews are plotting to blow up the world? 

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4 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

This is absolutely some of the most unhinged conspiracy theory shit I’ve a seen on this board. “Israel has a plan to destroy the world and shoot nukes at us if it’s losing a war,” FFS.  What information waters are you swimming in? 

Not to mention, US subs operated in Tokyo Bay.  After traversing 2000 miles from Pearl to there, mostly on the surface, at speeds about that of a freight convoy (e.g. 8-10 knots), just like the Krauts.

The best diesel-electric boats have a submerged range in the vicinity of 4-500 NM, meaning they're going to have to spend a lot of time on the surface to go anywhere, like out of the Mediterranean, which is about 2500 miles long.

So, yeah, diesel electric boats are stealthy as hell when submerged.  The problem is they're extremely vulnerable outside coastal waters.

 

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