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SIAP, but it looks like Turkey is still drifting out further and further away from Western ideals under Erdogan:

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To a standing ovation from his party yesterday, President Erdogan said Hamas isn’t a terrorist group, but rather “a group of mujahideen defending their lands”. Erdogan also cancelled a planned trip to Israel, which would’ve been his first since 2005.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/erdogan-says-hamas-not-terrorists-but-mujahideen-defending-their-lands-cancels-israel-trip/

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13 hours ago, statsman said:

(I’m not proud of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. All I can say there is- we were at war with monsters and to defeat them, we did monstrous things)

Honestly, it was probably better than Operation Downfall (invasion of Japan). You’re looking at millions of US casualties and 5-10 million dead Japanese. All the while the Soviets gobble up china and Korea, expanding their empire. 

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8 minutes ago, Poe It Up said:

Honestly, it was probably better than Operation Downfall (invasion of Japan). You’re looking at millions of US casualties and 5-10 million dead Japanese. All the while the Soviets gobble up china and Korea, expanding their empire. 

I agree with that argument. There are other arguments, too, that are good. 
 
Fact remains, we dropped nukes on civilian population centers. I believe it is possible to approve of the decision without being proud of it. (Insert gif of Truman handing Oppenheimer a tissue)

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39 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

Does anyone still believe all these bombs are targeting anything other than civilians?

Huh?  You mean like the one that just led to the death of a high ranking Hamas POS?  Looks to me like they are targeting terrorists.

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6 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

one bomb out of 6,000+?

Give me a break.   You probably believe the hospital hoax as well.  If they didn't care about civilians, Israel would turn the entire strip into rubble.  But when terrorists strategically place rocket launchers next to preschools, collateral damage happens.

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2 minutes ago, Skipper said:

Give me a break.   You probably believe the hospital hoax as well.  If they didn't care about civilians, Israel would turn the entire strip into rubble.  But when terrorists strategically place rocket launchers next to preschools, collateral damage happens.

For the record Israel cares, but only for PR purposes not humanitarian.

You see it all the time on pro israeli forums the sight of dead children does not phase them, I imagine it is no different in the IDF

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6 minutes ago, Skipper said:

Give me a break.   You probably believe the hospital hoax as well.  If they didn't care about civilians, Israel would turn the entire strip into rubble.  But when terrorists strategically place rocket launchers next to preschools, collateral damage happens.

I don't think there's been an independent investigation that has drawn any firm conclusions. I do know that latest IDF narrative has been walked back by NYT.

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5 minutes ago, linux said:

For the record Israel cares, but only for PR purposes not humanitarian.

 

Even if that were the case, at least they aren't actively targeting and shooting women and children for sport like the terrorists they are fighting.  You guys can "both sides" this all you want but I have absolutely zero fucking problem with their response to date given what occurred.

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6 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

I don't think there's been an independent investigation that has drawn any firm conclusions. I do know that latest IDF narrative has been walked back by NYT.

Wait, are you saying you think that IDF bombed the Gaza hospital from a couple weeks back?

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6 minutes ago, Skipper said:

they aren't actively targeting and shooting women and children for sport like the terrorists they are fighting.

They are indiscriminately bombing civilians, which is functionally if not morally indistinguishable from actively targeting them. And they're killing far more civilians than were killed on Oct 7.

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20 minutes ago, linux said:

For the record Israel cares, but only for PR purposes not humanitarian.

You see it all the time on pro israeli forums the sight of dead children does not phase them, I imagine it is no different in the IDF

"The sight of dead children does not phase Israelis" is an insanely broad generalization, incorrect, and not helpful in any way to this discussion.

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3 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

They are indiscriminately bombing civilians, which is functionally if not morally indistinguishable from actively targeting them. And they're killing far more civilians than were killed on Oct 7.

They are bombing terrorist military targets in response to a targeted killing of Israeli civilians.  Hamas uses civilians as human shields because they are subhuman fucks.  But you go ahead and keep sympathizing with them.  

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5 minutes ago, Chuckie Finster said:

"The sight of dead children does not phase Israelis" is an insanely broad generalization, incorrect, and not helpful in any way to this discussion.

Correct. It doesn't faze Netanyahu and his government. I'm sure that every day Israelis hate it as much as anyone else does.

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2 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

Correct. It doesn't faze Netanyahu and his government. I'm sure that every day Israelis hate it as much as anyone else does.

If you're going to ask the Israelis to differentiate between the leaders and the civilians of Palestine, then you gotta do the same in return.

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4 minutes ago, Chuckie Finster said:

If you're going to ask the Israelis to differentiate between the leaders and the civilians of Palestine, then you gotta do the same in return.

This is a good and fair take. I believe you'd hear way more moderate voices from Palestine once we turn the temperature down.

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12 minutes ago, Chuckie Finster said:

If you're going to ask the Israelis to differentiate between the leaders and the civilians of Palestine, then you gotta do the same in return.

I have. Repeatedly. My beef is not with Jewish people or the people of Israel. It gets really tiring continually explaining this concept to adults.

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1 hour ago, Skipper said:

Even if that were the case, at least they aren't actively targeting and shooting women and children for sport like the terrorists they are fighting.  You guys can "both sides" this all you want but I have absolutely zero fucking problem with their response to date given what occurred.

But it still does not dissuade my logic for what I do what I do, if the only thing stopping Israel from committing genocide is me screaming at the top of my lungs, then yeah I will scream at the top of my lungs.

 

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1 hour ago, Chuckie Finster said:

"The sight of dead children does not phase Israelis" is an insanely broad generalization, incorrect, and not helpful in any way to this discussion.

Well I participate in online discussions and I have never seen the safeguards I would expect from people I would entrust to do the right thing, I saw every single video the IDF put out showing the massacre, because it was my responsability to see what hamas did and not just do "don't see evil".

But I don't see this from Israelis, and if I don't see this from suppsedly left wing Israelis, and see pure bloodlust from right wing ones then yeah I am not giving Israel the benefit of the doubt.

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12 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

I have. Repeatedly. My beef is not with Jewish people or the people of Israel. It gets really tiring continually explaining this concept to adults.

"you" meaning the greater you and not you specifically... although I have seen many instances (again, not from you) of blatant antisemitism hidden behind "anti-zionism is not antisemitism!!"  It's not a get out of jail free card.

11 minutes ago, linux said:

Well I participate in online discussions and I have never seen the safeguards I would expect from people I would entrust to do the right thing, I saw every single video the IDF put out showing the massacre, because it was my responsability to see what hamas did and not just do "don't see evil".

But I don't see this from Israelis, and if I don't see this from suppsedly left wing Israelis, and see pure bloodlust from right wing ones then yeah I am not giving Israel the benefit of the doubt.

I appreciate your honesty, but this is an INSANE statement.  Seeing someone create a definitive opinion of an entire group of people based off of folks you meet in a message board is truly very worrisome.

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6 minutes ago, Chuckie Finster said:

I appreciate your honesty, but this is an INSANE statement.  Seeing someone create a definitive opinion of an entire group of people based off of folks you meet in a message board is truly very worrisome.

How else am I supposed to form an opinion then?

I am not being snarky I honestly want to know.

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On 10/25/2023 at 12:29 AM, Anastasis said:

Fried masa and cornmeal, chili, cheese, white onion, maybe slight variations on the proportions involved but it is essentially the same dish. And certainly the same food group. 

My frito pie doesn't usually have chocolate as an ingredient. 

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11 minutes ago, Chuckie Finster said:

"you" meaning the greater you and not you specifically... although I have seen many instances (again, not from you) of blatant antisemitism hidden behind "anti-zionism is not antisemitism!!"  It's not a get out of jail free card.

Absolutely, seeing this from a lot of people ranging from simple ignorance to straight up neo Nazi agitprop. It's important not to fall for racist canards no matter which side you're arguing for in a given moment.

I saw the video from yesterday (?) of the guy in the car just spewing vile hatred at this person on a bike for being Jewish. Absolutely broke my mind, I just can't fathom how people can reach such a state of mind.

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8 minutes ago, linux said:

How else am I supposed to form an opinion then?

I am not being snarky I honestly want to know.

You're obviously free to form an opinion, just make sure you caveat that this opinion is already filtered down to those that have chosen to discuss the topic on that particular forum.  That is not a representative basis for the population as a whole.

Echoing Skipper's point, would you want someone from another country drawing definitive conclusions about Texans based on Texags?

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13 minutes ago, linux said:

How else am I supposed to form an opinion then?

I am not being snarky I honestly want to know.

There are plenty of Israeli leftists speaking out, as are plenty of Jewish anti-Zionists. You're not looking in the right places. Listen to what this man has to say, Dr. Ofer Cassif, member of the Knessit.

The reason you might not be hearing as many voices as you think you should is that speaking out in favor of Palestinians inside Israel is very dangerous right now. People don't want to be arrested or worse.

 

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5 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

There are plenty of Israeli leftists speaking out, as are plenty of Jewish anti-Zionists. You're not looking in the right places. Listen to what this man has to say, Dr. Ofer Cassif, member of the Knessit.

The reason you might not be hearing as many voices as you think you should is that speaking out in favor of Palestinians inside Israel is very dangerous right now. People don't want to be arrested or worse.

 

All of this. Many voices within Israel are being silenced by an authoritarian government. The kind of stuff they are trying to do here in the US, in terms of controlling the narrative and discourse, would have made Michael Flynn blush.

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1 hour ago, Chuckie Finster said:

"you" meaning the greater you and not you specifically... although I have seen many instances (again, not from you) of blatant antisemitism hidden behind "anti-zionism is not antisemitism!!"  It's not a get out of jail free card.

I appreciate your honesty, but this is an INSANE statement.  Seeing someone create a definitive opinion of an entire group of people based off of folks you meet in a message board is truly very worrisome.

The poster you’re engaging with has written that when Jews say “never again,” they are actually a threatening the rest of the world with nuclear apocalypse.  It’s up in this thread. 
 

Just so you’re aware how far the mask is here. 

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3 hours ago, Chuckie Finster said:

You're obviously free to form an opinion, just make sure you caveat that this opinion is already filtered down to those that have chosen to discuss the topic on that particular forum.  That is not a representative basis for the population as a whole.

Echoing Skipper's point, would you want someone from another country drawing definitive conclusions about Texans based on Texags?

gasp GIF

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3 hours ago, chainsaw said:

All of this. Many voices within Israel are being silenced by an authoritarian government. The kind of stuff they are trying to do here in the US, in terms of controlling the narrative and discourse, would have made Michael Flynn blush.

Israel's government is shitty and authoritarian. Agreed

 

What about Hamas? Supported by most Gazans...and most Palestinians?

You know, the rapists and butchers who specifically and deliberately murdered babies, grandmothers, pregnant mothers to be and children in their homes.

The people who say over and over Israel must be obliterated.

Who won't allow the evacuation of its own civilians.

Who is the "health authority" in Gaza reporting suspect health info?

Who has copious amounts of staged, repurposed and suspect media with duplicative actors, dolls and clearly fabricated scenes depicting their "oppression?"

Who is holding 200+ innocent civilians, as well as its own civilians, PLUS all the international workers they will not allow to to leave gaza, hostage? 

 

They need fuel for hospitals so bad they have been on their last reserves for days. Every day they are out of fuel for hospitals. Weird. Now I hear they are going to "run out" this weekend. Again. I wonder if Hamas wants fuel? Of course they do...and not for hospitals. Their lack of concern for Gaza citizens is pretty clear at this point.

 

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4 hours ago, linux said:

Well I participate in online discussions and I have never seen the safeguards I would expect from people I would entrust to do the right thing, I saw every single video the IDF put out showing the massacre, because it was my responsability to see what hamas did and not just do "don't see evil".

But I don't see this from Israelis, and if I don't see this from suppsedly left wing Israelis, and see pure bloodlust from right wing ones then yeah I am not giving Israel the benefit of the doubt.

doing my part GIF

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4 hours ago, linux said:

Well I participate in online discussions and I have never seen the safeguards I would expect from people I would entrust to do the right thing

I'm Gen X, which basically means I trust no one, so I have a head start I suppose, but tell me...who do you trust to do the right thing? *Honest question. 

Do you understand how humans work? *not so honest. I think I know the answer to this one.

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31 minutes ago, Welshy said:

Israel's government is shitty and authoritarian. Agreed

 

What about Hamas? Supported by most Gazans...and most Palestinians?

You know, the rapists and butchers who specifically and deliberately murdered babies, grandmothers, pregnant mothers to be and children in their homes.

The people who say over and over Israel must be obliterated.

Who won't allow the evacuation of its own civilians.

Who is the "health authority" in Gaza reporting suspect health info?

Who has copious amounts of staged, repurposed and suspect media with duplicative actors, dolls and clearly fabricated scenes depicting their "oppression?"

Who is holding 200+ innocent civilians, as well as its own civilians, PLUS all the international workers they will not allow to to leave gaza, hostage? 

 

They need fuel for hospitals so bad they have been on their last reserves for days. Every day they are out of fuel for hospitals. Weird. Now I hear they are going to "run out" this weekend. Again. I wonder if Hamas wants fuel? Of course they do...and not for hospitals. Their lack of concern for Gaza citizens is pretty clear at this point.

 

This reads like a “just asking questions” guy who’s sole source of media is Twitter.

Collective punishment against 2 million people isn’t justified no matter what you think the polling of Gazans says. 

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23 minutes ago, Welshy said:

Israel's government is shitty and authoritarian. Agreed

 

What about Hamas? Supported by most Gazans...and most Palestinians?

You know, the rapists and butchers who specifically and deliberately murdered babies, grandmothers, pregnant mothers to be and children in their homes.

The people who say over and over Israel must be obliterated.

Who won't allow the evacuation of its own civilians.

Who is the "health authority" in Gaza reporting suspect health info?

Who has copious amounts of staged, repurposed and suspect media with duplicative actors, dolls and clearly fabricated scenes depicting their "oppression?"

Who is holding 200+ innocent civilians, as well as its own civilians, PLUS all the international workers they will not allow to to leave gaza, hostage? 

 

They need fuel for hospitals so bad they have been on their last reserves for days. Every day they are out of fuel for hospitals. Weird. Now I hear they are going to "run out" this weekend. Again. I wonder if Hamas wants fuel? Of course they do...and not for hospitals. Their lack of concern for Gaza citizens is pretty clear at this point.

 

Where the hell do you get your news? A majority of Gazans were opposed to violence. Nobody's been able to poll them since the attacks (probably on account of the place being constantly bombed and over 42% of their homes being destroyed) but I'm guessing most of them would support a ceasefire.

Don't use dehumanizing rhetoric to describe 2.2M people, over 98% of whom have no affiliation with Hamas. Don't engage in the Trumpian practice of calling them "rapists and butchers" when that isn't what those civilians did, and there's no proof the civilians "support" any rapes or murders.

Don't engage in the baseless sowing of doubt and genocide denialism by disparaging the Gazan health authority's reports without even a shred of evidence that they're lying about the casualties.

And the hospitals have already gone dark. I'm not sure that "the people in hospitals aren't dying fast enough for me" is the argument you think it is.

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Absolutely, seeing this from a lot of people ranging from simple ignorance to straight up neo Nazi agitprop. It's important not to fall for racist canards no matter which side you're arguing for in a given moment.
I saw the video from yesterday (?) of the guy in the car just spewing vile hatred at this person on a bike for being Jewish. Absolutely broke my mind, I just can't fathom how people can reach such a state of mind.

Well, one thing that helps them is some loud and numerous voices saying pretty much “sure, what Hamas did was bad [handwaving here], but this is all on Israel, the evil colonial apartheid occupier murderer of children.” Come on. That’s the rhetorical message and technique, and it works.
The people who shout the loudest about not demonizing one “side” just because they committed unspeakable atrocities on Oct 7….happily lead people down the primrose path of demonizing everyone on the other “side” because they are affiliated with Israel.
TLDR; we all know that Islamic terrorism leads to the reactionary evil of Islamophobia. Yet so many people have a blind spot when they feed the same beast with respect to Israel and Jews.
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1 minute ago, GW Hayduke said:

This reads like a “just asking questions” guy who’s sole source of media is Twitter.

Collective punishment against 2 million people isn’t justified no matter what you think the polling of Gazans says. 

It could real like war and peace, but those things happened. Each one.

Hamas contrived this situation. Boxed Israel so that they had no option but to look like the aggressor and the villan. If Israel does nothing, Hamas will kill more Israelis, and more brutally. Hamas will not stop. What option has Hamas left Israel? You can call me twitteriffic, but you cannot ignore the contrived nature of all of this.  

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5 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

Where the hell do you get your news? A majority of Gazans were opposed to violence. Nobody's been able to poll them since the attacks (probably on account of the place being constantly bombed and over 42% of their homes being destroyed) but I'm guessing most of them would support a ceasefire.

Don't use dehumanizing rhetoric to describe 2.2M people, over 98% of whom have no affiliation with Hamas. Don't engage in the Trumpian practice of calling them "rapists and butchers" when that isn't what those civilians did, and there's no proof the civilians "support" any rapes or murders.

Don't engage in the baseless sowing of doubt and genocide denialism by disparaging the Gazan health authority's reports without even a shred of evidence that they're lying about the casualties.

And the hospitals have already gone dark. I'm not sure that "the people in hospitals aren't dying fast enough for me" is the argument you think it is.

I could go line by line, but I'll offer a few pieces.

Gazan's do have an affiliation to Hamas. Hamas is their government. 

"Opposed to violence" is not the same thing as opposed to Hamas, who perpetuated the violence. Hamas leads Gaza. I think you know this.

 

Proof and shreds of evidence. From one quickly searched article:

“Hamas has a clear propaganda incentive to inflate civilian casualties as much as possible,” Luke Baker, a former Reuters bureau chief who led the organization’s coverage of Israel and the Palestinian territories from 2014 to 2017, said in a recent X thread. (Baker declined to comment to TIME.) Like Biden, Baker does not dispute that civilian deaths have occurred. Rather, he says that the extent of the death toll is unverifiable and that those tasked with tracking casualties in Gaza may not be able to do so freely. “Any health official stepping out of line and not giving the death tolls that Hamas wants reported to journalists risks serious consequences,” Baker said. 

 

"...Skepticism over the death toll spiked in the aftermath of last week’s explosion at Gaza City’s Al Ahli hospital, in which hundreds are believed to have been killed. In the immediate aftermath, the Gaza health ministry said that 500 people had been killed in the blast—a sum that was later revised down to 471. (U.S. intelligence offered a more conservative estimate of between 100 and 300 deaths.) The only thing more contentious than the death toll is who was ultimately responsible for the blast. While Gaza’s health ministry spokesman laid the blame on an Israeli airstrike, Israel said that it was the fault of an errant rocket fired by Palestinian militants from Gaza—an assessment that has been supported by the White House. A recent visual investigation into the blast carried out by the New York Times remains inconclusive."

 

Different source:
"President Biden, meanwhile, said on Oct. 25 that he has “no notion that Palestinians are telling the truth about how many people are killed” in Gaza. The U.S. leader said that he was sure that “innocents have been killed” and called on Israel to be “incredibly careful” to avoid civilian casualties, but he cast doubt on the reliability of Palestinian figures.

“I have no confidence in the number that the Palestinians are using,” Biden said.

 

10 second search, and more than a shred - and not twitter based. 

I think it's clear what the Gazan government did, and what they deliberately set up Israel for. 

Also: "genocide denialism." brought the chuckles. Jesus. 

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59 minutes ago, Welshy said:

It could real like war and peace, but those things happened. Each one.

Hamas contrived this situation. Boxed Israel so that they had no option but to look like the aggressor and the villan. If Israel does nothing, Hamas will kill more Israelis, and more brutally. Hamas will not stop. What option has Hamas left Israel? You can call me twitteriffic, but you cannot ignore the contrived nature of all of this.  

It’s almost as though an organization that derives its legitimacy and external funding from killing Jews and martyrdom must create martyrs and kill Jews to perpetuate its own existence. 
 

But now I know better and this is just liberation. 

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It’s a hard one to unravel, even for us graduates of the University of Comancheria at Austin. 
 
I grieve for the Palestinians. It is a real humanitarian crisis. I don’t expect Israel to relieve the crisis. Hamas has taken a couple hundred hostages, civilians, children, to keep the IDF from storming in, and that is an effective tactic (do you grieve for the hostages?). Letting Gaza stew in famine and disease is the only counter tactic Israel has. Taking care of Israelis is Israel’s job. Taking care of Gazans is Hamas’ job. 
 
I don’t blame the allies for the humanitarian disaster in 1945 Germany; I blame the Nazis for starting the war they could not win, and fighting so cruelly. 
 
I don’t blame the US for the humanitarian disaster in 1945 Japan, not even Hiroshima and Nagasaki. I blame Imperial Japan, for starting a fight they could never win, and fighting so cruelly. 
 
I don’t blame the north (counter to how I was raised in Georgia) for the humanitarian disaster in 1863 Savannah and Atlanta. I blame the CSA for starting a war it could never win. 
 
I don’t blame Israel for the humanitarian disaster in Gaza. I blame Hamas, for starting a war it can’t win, and fighting so cruelly. 
This is where I'm at. Everything bad that is happening in Gaza right now, the mythical intentional targeting of civilians thay chainsaw claims is 100% hamas fault.
Palestinians want to live in peace, get rid of hamas
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U.S. military aircraft have carried out strikes in eastern Syria against facilities associated with Iranian-backed militant groups believed to be responsible for more than a dozen rocket and drone attacks on American troops in Iraq and Syria that injured 21 service members, the military said Thursday night.

"Today, at President Biden's direction, U.S. military forces conducted self-defense strikes on two facilities in eastern Syria used by Iran's Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps (IRGC) and affiliated groups," said Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin in a statement.

Chainsaw, GW, godspeed. Hope you survive the nuclear winter. 

 

 

1 minute ago, 956 Worldwide said:

It’s almost as though an organization that derives its legitimacy and external funding from killing Jews and martyrdom must create martyrs and kill Jews to perpetuate its own existence. 
 

But now I know better and this is just liberation. 

Eric Wareheim Mind Blown GIF by Tim and Eric

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1 hour ago, Brisketexan said:


Well, one thing that helps them is some loud and numerous voices saying pretty much “sure, what Hamas did was bad [handwaving here], but this is all on Israel, the evil colonial apartheid occupier murderer of children.” Come on. That’s the rhetorical message and technique, and it works.
The people who shout the loudest about not demonizing one “side” just because they committed unspeakable atrocities on Oct 7….happily lead people down the primrose path of demonizing everyone on the other “side” because they are affiliated with Israel.
TLDR; we all know that Islamic terrorism leads to the reactionary evil of Islamophobia. Yet so many people have a blind spot when they feed the same beast with respect to Israel and Jews.

You're kinda going wild here, dawg

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49 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:


Naah. Just see the surge in actual anti-semitism here and abroad, and the rhetoric that accompanies it.
Or…go ahead and believe that the kind of rhetoric that leads to Islamophobia doesn’t work the other way.
One of those things makes sense.

Nah man lol we know it works both ways. It's all shit.

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