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Solar Panels for the house

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I have a south facing roof in S. Florida and fuck FP&L.    Anybody done this...have any advice?

I  average 3k kwh  with peaks in the summer ...  almost all of it AC.   My thoughts are that the panels would both generate electricity and shield part of my roof from solar heating...

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I'm in a similar situation near the coast in Texas (large south facing roof and avg ~3K kwh).  Last time I did the math (a couple of years ago) , solar just didn't make sense financially.  Costco was (still is?) partnering with some solar company and offering their backing to the warranty/deal, but the solar provider did not have a deal worked out with Texas-New Mexico Power (company that serves my area regardless of what retail electric company I choose).  I forget why exactly they needed a contract with them (they claimed to have one with the company that serves most of Houston), but it made a huge difference in the numbers.  I seem to recall it had to do with them buying back electricity on the grid when the solar units were generating too much power.  Anyway, if you have a Costco near you, you might check if the one in your area is offering that deal and have a rep come out and work through numbers with you (no obligation).  At least you then have a basis and some idea of what to look for when pricing something yourself from online dealers/installers.

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much like your mom, I'm not concerned with the penetrations....  and I want to know more

Edited by Loco

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14 minutes ago, bernorange said:

I'm in a similar situation near the coast in Texas (large south facing roof and avg ~3K kwh).  Last time I did the math (a couple of years ago) , solar just didn't make sense financially.  Costco was (still is?) partnering with some solar company and offering their backing to the warranty/deal, but the solar provider did not have a deal worked out with Texas-New Mexico Power (company that serves my area regardless of what retail electric company I choose).  I forget why exactly they needed a contract with them (they claimed to have one with the company that serves most of Houston), but it made a huge difference in the numbers.  I seem to recall it had to do with them buying back electricity on the grid when the solar units were generating too much power.  Anyway, if you have a Costco near you, you might check if the one in your area is offering that deal and have a rep come out and work through numbers with you (no obligation).  At least you then have a basis and some idea of what to look for when pricing something yourself from online dealers/installers.

The "marketing" stuff I'm seeing is talking about a 7-8 yr repay after 30% federal credit.  It might be even better for me because I'm going electric with my next car and we do have Net Metering in Florida but it's the shitty kind were you bank the credits and it's use them or lose them by December.  So even if you have system capacity, you will get a bill in January and give up credits in December.

If I see that I'm running a surplus, I'm going to fire up the pool heater...  because fuck FP&L

Edited by Loco

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Bear in mind that 8-10 year repayment projections don't figure any costs for replacing equipment that fails.  The panels *should* last that long, but the inverters and other equipment  might not and they are costly to replace.

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I'm in the process of installing these in Houston right now. When I originally looked into a few years ago, the math didn't make sense. The only reason to do it would be because you really valued reducing your carbon footprint. However, prices have gone down and panel efficiency has gone up. As a result, I'm getting a 7.37 kW system (LG 335W panels with micro-inverters) installed for ~13,000 after credits.  My average monthly electric bill was $120 last year (and it is going to be significantly higher this year). By working the loan into a refinance, I'm getting a 3.125% rate (3.25 apr) on a 15 year loan. If you calculate the loan on just the after credit cost, then the monthly payments for just the system are going to be ~$91.00. I expect the system to cover 80-100% of my usage. So, at 100%, I'm net $29 a month. At 80% I'm still net $5 a month. Of course, the refinance includes costs and the full pre-credit price of the system (~22k). The costs are more than covered by the decreased rate on the rest of my mortgage (and my payment period is shortened by 8 years). And I'm perfectly fine getting an additional 9k cash at 3.125%. Even including the full 22k, the monthly payment is only $154, which isn't that much more than my average in just electric last year and around what I expect to average this year. 

short version: the loan and system should be cash flow positive for the life of the loan.  At worst, if repairs are needed, I still expect the result to still be cash-flow neutral. Also, as a side benefit, I got my ~15 year old roof replaced and covered by insurance because they discovered some issues during the inspection. 

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On 11/4/2019 at 9:57 AM, Dahobbs said:

I'm in the process of installing these in Houston right now. When I originally looked into a few years ago, the math didn't make sense. The only reason to do it would be because you really valued reducing your carbon footprint. However, prices have gone down and panel efficiency has gone up. As a result, I'm getting a 7.37 kW system (LG 335W panels with micro-inverters) installed for ~13,000 after credits.  My average monthly electric bill was $120 last year (and it is going to be significantly higher this year). By working the loan into a refinance, I'm getting a 3.125% rate (3.25 apr) on a 15 year loan. If you calculate the loan on just the after credit cost, then the monthly payments for just the system are going to be ~$91.00. I expect the system to cover 80-100% of my usage. So, at 100%, I'm net $29 a month. At 80% I'm still net $5 a month. Of course, the refinance includes costs and the full pre-credit price of the system (~22k). The costs are more than covered by the decreased rate on the rest of my mortgage (and my payment period is shortened by 8 years). And I'm perfectly fine getting an additional 9k cash at 3.125%. Even including the full 22k, the monthly payment is only $154, which isn't that much more than my average in just electric last year and around what I expect to average this year. 

short version: the loan and system should be cash flow positive for the life of the loan.  At worst, if repairs are needed, I still expect the result to still be cash-flow neutral. Also, as a side benefit, I got my ~15 year old roof replaced and covered by insurance because they discovered some issues during the inspection. 

Update on this? Any needed repairs, expected coverage of solar vs usage from grid etc? My next home might be a 20+ year home so considering this based on the size and direction of my roof.

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16 minutes ago, Enchubben said:

Update on this? Any needed repairs, expected coverage of solar vs usage from grid etc? My next home might be a 20+ year home so considering this based on the size and direction of my roof.

It has gone great. System went live in late January. Production is in line with what I expected. I have micro-inverters which combined with the monitoring software provide a great granular and constant update of my production and usage. No needed repairs (yet?). 

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29 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

It has gone great. System went live in late January. Production is in line with what I expected. I have micro-inverters which combined with the monitoring software provide a great granular and constant update of my production and usage. No needed repairs (yet?). 

I know you financed this, but what range was the total install cost (labor+materials)?

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19 minutes ago, Enchubben said:

I know you financed this, but what range was the total install cost (labor+materials)?

22K (pre-tax credit) for 7.37 kw system.

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I have a good friend who is a green freak so he installed a system on his renovated house. He spent around 30k after tax. He loves it during sunny days when he can go to his phone and see the credits build up. He doesn’t seem to know, or care, about the payback. My question is whether these things ever make sense economically. My home is 3,900 sq ft and very well insulated with 2 efficient AC units. My worst bill in the summer is about $280 and it’s like $60 in the winter. Can you actually make money generating power during certain times?

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Our system costs (4.2kw):

Installation cost, including labor: $16,800

Minus rebate from line company: -$2,520 (we were only eligible for this if our system only generated enough to "break even". IOW, we can't use it to make money)

Total cost we paid: $14,280

Minus 30% tax credit: -$4,284

Total net cost: $9,960

 

After the first year, we had a $112 credit total. Currently about 4 months into our second year. Still never been anything but positive in our electric bill.

 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, HouTex said:

I have a good friend who is a green freak so he installed a system on his renovated house. He spent around 30k after tax. He loves it during sunny days when he can go to his phone and see the credits build up. He doesn’t seem to know, or care, about the payback. My question is whether these things ever make sense economically. My home is 3,900 sq ft and very well insulated with 2 efficient AC units. My worst bill in the summer is about $280 and it’s like $60 in the winter. Can you actually make money generating power during certain times?

My system costs ~90 per month with financing after taking account of tax credit. I'm on pace to generate an average of 110 to 120 per month in utility credits. It will be paid off in 15 years. I expect it adds about 50% of of it's construction cost to value of home (based on my recent appraisal). I should be in positive territory within 5 years, all while being cash flow positive. The system will pay for itself in 10 years, even when excluding any value added to the home. 

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I don't see how it can work when your bill is that low, unless you're a guy that cares about the environment more than you care about your pocketbook.

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7 hours ago, Gil Bang said:

I don't see how it can work when your bill is that low, unless you're a guy that cares about the environment more than you care about your pocketbook.

It's financed. The monthly payment is 90. The average production is 110. That's a 20 net dollars in my pocket every month. And, the warranty and lifetime of the system exceeds the loan term.

Looking at it from another perspective, after tax credits and utility rebate, the system cost me around 12k. I'm getting a little over 10% return every year (1.3k a year). That is a damn good investment return, and even better when you account for the value it adds to the home. 

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58 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

It's financed. The monthly payment is 90. The average production is 110. That's a 20 net dollars in my pocket every month. And, the warranty and lifetime of the system exceeds the loan term.

Looking at it from another perspective, after tax credits and utility rebate, the system cost me around 12k. I'm getting a little over 10% return every year (1.3k a year). That is a damn good investment return, and even better when you account for the value it adds to the home. 

All except for the god awful aesthetics it creates on your roof, in my opinion. I've always liked geo-thermal.  Sounds less expensive than solar, but it doesn't get you the surplus energy sales solar potentially can I guess.  

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12 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

All except for the god awful aesthetics it creates on your roof, in my opinion. I've always liked geo-thermal.  Sounds less expensive than solar, but it doesn't get you the surplus energy sales solar potentially can I guess.  

Eh, I like the way it looks. And the panels face the backyard anyway and aren't really visible from the street save a small group over the garage. 

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Just now, Dahobbs said:

Eh, I like the way it looks. And the panels face the backyard anyway and aren't really visible from the street save a small group over the garage. 

Like the way it looks ?  Well, there's no accounting for taste, and every elevation of a home should be aesthetically pleasing in my opinion 

I'm not opposed to solar, but these early generations are just ugly, and I'm not onboard with the projected longevity of the connections to a roof.  I think a better, more integrated design model needs to be developed.

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11 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Like the way it looks ?  Well, there's no accounting for taste, and every elevation of a home should be aesthetically pleasing in my opinion 

I'm not opposed to solar, but these early generations are just ugly, and I'm not onboard with the projected longevity of the connections to a roof.  I think a better, more integrated design model needs to be developed.

Yeah, sue me, I like the way it looks. Maybe it is the sci-fi/space nerd me. Feel free to go fuck yourself. 

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1 minute ago, Dahobbs said:

Yeah, sue me, I like the way it looks. Maybe it is the sci-fi/space nerd me. Feel free to go fuck yourself. 

Awwww........ hurt yer wittle feelings cause I don't like how they look ? Jeebus, thin skin like that can lead to skin cancer, and butthurtness.

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1 minute ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Awwww........ hurt yer wittle feelings cause I don't like how they look ? Jeebus, thin skin like that can lead to skin cancer, and butthurtness.

It was said in jest numbnuts. And to be frank, you weren't saying you didn't like how they looked generally, but we're talking about my feelings as to my particular house. So, yeah, I think it deserved a snarky response.  

Edited by Dahobbs

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2 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

It was said in jest numbnuts.

My apologies, you can't tell sometimes.  

My nuts aren't numb.. I  feel em all day.

We really do need a sarcasm font around here.

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following... building now/under construction.  ICF walls so the insulation factor is off the charts, so trying to figure it out.  carbon footprint matters to me, we have one electric car.  Adding a 50,000 gallon cistern for rain water collection too.  hoping to be off the grid to a large extent when done especially if we add solar.  not quite sure yet though.  roof is a butterfly roof with a shed roof on the other side so kinda like this \ /  \ but at minimal angles, just enough to support the angle needed for solar.  the two roof panels like this:  \   \  are south facing.  

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16 minutes ago, troph said:

following... building now/under construction.  ICF walls so the insulation factor is off the charts, so trying to figure it out.  carbon footprint matters to me, we have one electric car.  Adding a 50,000 gallon cistern for rain water collection too.  hoping to be off the grid to a large extent when done especially if we add solar.  not quite sure yet though.  roof is a butterfly roof with a shed roof on the other side so kinda like this \ /  \ but at minimal angles, just enough to support the angle needed for solar.  the two roof panels like this:  \   \  are south facing.  

Sounds interesting.

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A modern design with some mid century elements. Lots and lots of glass on the top floor back side but down stairs (upside down house, ground floor and basement that opens to the sloped land ... property cut out like a capital L) is mostly enclosed as are three sides of the upstairs. Expecting energy bills to be about $300 a month in the summer for 4000 sq ft. - down from $450 a month 3000 sq ft older less efficient design. But who knows until it’s done.  roof is a dark metal and the solar will just sit right on it with a similar color so it shouldn't be a huge detractor in design.  I was really concerned at one point having a flat roof, slightly below street level with pitched solar panels and I told the architect no, that detracts from the design.  yeah we will have them installed but with the roof at the solar panel minimum height, we should be ok though we may sacrifice some efficiencies for aesthetics to which I say, that's exactly right.  has to look good too.

Edited by troph

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Im struggling to understand the math on how solar is making a profit for a homeowner in Houston.  Maybe you have the perfect roof orientation to get a ton of solar but I haven’t heard of anyone getting close to break even on this yet much less a profit.

if the cost of the solar panels have been rolled into a house refinancing, then you have to be certain that your house value has equally increased in value or you have actually just lost a lot of money. I don’t know how much extra I would pay for a house with solar compared to one without. I definitely wouldn’t value it at the installation cost. What is an accurate depreciation for it? 30-50% in the first year? 

money has been relatively cheap recently. If solar was paying off so well why are we not seeing solar farms in Houston?

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Really? Seems easy to me.

 

Buying it already installed is gold. You buy the house, electric bill near zero. Call it $3000 per year savings. That’s money in your pocket. Even if you paid $10,000 more for the house (over 30 years).

 

Installing and financing it - same equation. Finance costs minus savings equal net cost. If it’s negative money made if it’s positive then you must love the planet.

 

The equation is simple.

 

Am I missing something?

 

Maybe people you know like the air at 78, I like it at 70 at night and 72 during the day. And my sons like it even colder. I don’t want to feel guilty for having an icebox for a home. And the cooler you want it the easier it probably is to save or make money on a properly sized system. If in the end my cost is a tad higher but I have guilt free AC then I’m good. If I save anything or break even I’m going to be thrilled and call myself the oracle of something.

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1 hour ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

Im struggling to understand the math on how solar is making a profit for a homeowner in Houston.  Maybe you have the perfect roof orientation to get a ton of solar but I haven’t heard of anyone getting close to break even on this yet much less a profit.

if the cost of the solar panels have been rolled into a house refinancing, then you have to be certain that your house value has equally increased in value or you have actually just lost a lot of money. I don’t know how much extra I would pay for a house with solar compared to one without. I definitely wouldn’t value it at the installation cost. What is an accurate depreciation for it? 30-50% in the first year? 

money has been relatively cheap recently. If solar was paying off so well why are we not seeing solar farms in Houston?

Appraisal put it around 50% of installation cost or basically my cost after credit and rebate. Again, look at from a cash flow perspective. I'm out nothing out of pocket. I gain money every month. Even if it adds 0 to property value, it still pays itself back in 10 years even ignoring increases in energy prices. It may not make sense if someone plans to sell within 5 years. That isn't me. For me, it is basically free money. 

Solar has been increasing in Texas and elsewhere very quickly. 

Edited by Dahobbs

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1 hour ago, troph said:

Really? Seems easy to me.

 

Buying it already installed is gold. You buy the house, electric bill near zero. Call it $3000 per year savings. That’s money in your pocket. Even if you paid $10,000 more for the house (over 30 years).

 

Installing and financing it - same equation. Finance costs minus savings equal net cost. If it’s negative money made if it’s positive then you must love the planet.

 

The equation is simple.

 

Am I missing something?

 

Maybe people you know like the air at 78, I like it at 70 at night and 72 during the day. And my sons like it even colder. I don’t want to feel guilty for having an icebox for a home. And the cooler you want it the easier it probably is to save or make money on a properly sized system. If in the end my cost is a tad higher but I have guilt free AC then I’m good. If I save anything or break even I’m going to be thrilled and call myself the oracle of something.

Buying something for 13k or 22k and earning $100 per month doesn’t seem like a great idea to me. At least in basic finance. If it makes you feel good about it, great. If it’s a hobby for you? Great. But it doesn’t seem to be a good financial decision if that is what you’re basing it on.

i guess if you’re planning to live there for 30 years, there will be a small return. But I could say the same in buying 5 year CDs for 30 years. Instead you could have just as easy invested that money elsewhere and bought a 100% renewable energy plan. You have the identical impact on the environment with much less risk and more money at the end.

ill go back to my question: if solar panels are offering such high payouts with Low/No risk, why do we not see solar farms in Texas? Is there an anti-solar conspiracy? Are investors rejecting profits? The sun isn’t going anywhere. Wind has big investment. Why not solar?

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Yes can’t be a house you plan to leave soon and with how you finance it the interim equation works. It’s really just an arbitrage play. It makes total sense but can bust if you move (I’m not moving ever again no effing way - this house is my last). It can also bust if you pay more in finance payments than you save in electric bills. All of that is true but at its basic level you create arbitrage between the prior monthly spend on electric and the finance cost (making money while you pay for the equipment meaning no out of pocket) and if you used that cash from the arbitrage play to pay off the loan early you might break even quicker which lowers your required hold period for your concern. Add a $5-10k premium on the later sale (if you sale) and your break even point is even quicker).

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And solar large scale in big metros doesn’t make a lot of sense (real estate costs are too high for dedicated use) though you see it more and more on commercial roof tops and certainly on residential. And out west wind produces more power, but there are parts of the US where solar farms do make sense and more and more as the equations continue to move to lower costs. Solar makes a lot of sense for individual installs if you can produce enough power - that’s pretty clear now.

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57 minutes ago, troph said:

Yes can’t be a house you plan to leave soon and with how you finance it the interim equation works. It’s really just an arbitrage play. It makes total sense but can bust if you move (I’m not moving ever again no effing way - this house is my last). It can also bust if you pay more in finance payments than you save in electric bills. All of that is true but at its basic level you create arbitrage between the prior monthly spend on electric and the finance cost (making money while you pay for the equipment meaning no out of pocket) and if you used that cash from the arbitrage play to pay off the loan early you might break even quicker which lowers your required hold period for your concern. Add a $5-10k premium on the later sale (if you sale) and your break even point is even quicker).

Yeah, the math is pretty simple. I'm not sure why anyone is having troubles with my numbers above. 

13k cost of the system after credit and rebate (literally checks I got). Added value to house of 12k. I pay less per month than previously (finance payment + current electrical bill < previous electrical bill). Yearly net savings is around 300 while loan is being paid. It breaks even or makes a profit at 4 or 5 years (crosses the gap between 1k gap between 13k cost and 12k increase in value). Payback period shrinks if energy costs go up at all. Everything after that is profit. 

It isn't a pure investment play on my part. I do have an interest in reducing carbon footprint. If I can do so with no out of pocket cost (again, cash flow positive and no down payment) and generate some profit shortly down the line, that is enough for me. 

Edited by Dahobbs

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3 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

Yeah, the math is pretty simple. I'm not sure why anyone is having troubles with my numbers above. 

13k cost of the system after credit and rebate (literally checks I got). Added value to house of 12k. I pay less per month than previously (finance payment + current electrical bill < previous electrical bill). Yearly net savings is around 300 while loan is being paid. It breaks even or makes a profit at 4 or 5 years (crosses the gap between 1k gap between 13k cost and 12k increase in value). Payback period shrinks if energy costs go up at all. Everything after that is profit. 

It isn't a pure investment play on my part. I do have an interest in reducing carbon footprint. But, if I can do so no out of pocket cost (again, cash flow positive) and generate some profit shortly down the line, that is enough for me. 

I call bullshit on the added value part.   There is some added value, but, based on my experience, it's about 1/3 of retail cost.   

I'm a believer in Solar, but the RE market isn't quite there yet.    

If I show two comparable homes, and one has a really nice master bath, and the other has solar, the buyer is going for the bathroom every time. 

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1 minute ago, Gil Bang said:

I call bullshit on the added value part.   There is some added value, but, based on my experience, it's about 1/3 of retail cost.   

I'm a believer in Solar, but the RE market isn't quite there yet.    

If I show two comparable homes, and one has a really nice master bath, and the other has solar, the buyer is going for the bathroom every time. 

I literally just did an appraisal. But I don't really care if you quibble with the numbers. 33% just means a 15 year break even point assuming no increases in energy cost. But, let's be realistic, energy costs will rise and the break even point will be more like 10 years. Great. Again, nothing out of my pocket. Looking at a monthly budget, I'm ahead right now. I only lose if I sell early. And I am not doing that. 

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5 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

I literally just did an appraisal. But I don't really care if you quibble with the numbers. 33% just means a 15 year break even point assuming no increases in energy cost. But, let's be realistic, energy costs will rise and the break even point will be more like 10 years. Great. Again, nothing out of my pocket. Looking at a monthly budget, I'm ahead right now. I only lose if I sell early. And I am not doing that. 

Good on you for going solar.

 

So, that appraisal.  Your value went up solely because of solar?    That's interesting.  Was that appraisal done on the "cost approach" or the "comparable sales approach"? 

 

Did you get one appraisal the day before the solar was installed, and another the day after it was installed?

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Value add isn’t needed for it to make sense. Only a longer term view on your hold period.

 

Not surprised folks pick the master, folks like the energy cost savings but most don’t want to buy and come out of pocket $15-20k for a bath remodel (if not higher).

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22 minutes ago, troph said:

Value add isn’t needed for it to make sense. Only a longer term view on your hold period.

 

Not surprised folks pick the master, folks like the energy cost savings but most don’t want to buy and come out of pocket $15-20k for a bath remodel (if not higher).

I agree that value-added isn't needed.  Which is good, because little value is added.  

And the bath remodel costs about the same as the solar.  Which was my point.  

Make no mistake, I'm a fan of solar systems. They are good for the consumer, and good for the planet.   I applaud anybody that gets solar. 

My point was, the  buyers don't appreciate the value of the solar quite yet.   But  hey, I just sell houses for a living.  WTF do I know?

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4 hours ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

Buying something for 13k or 22k and earning $100 per month doesn’t seem like a great idea to me. At least in basic finance. If it makes you feel good about it, great. If it’s a hobby for you? Great. But it doesn’t seem to be a good financial decision if that is what you’re basing it on.

i guess if you’re planning to live there for 30 years, there will be a small return. But I could say the same in buying 5 year CDs for 30 years. Instead you could have just as easy invested that money elsewhere and bought a 100% renewable energy plan. You have the identical impact on the environment with much less risk and more money at the end.

ill go back to my question: if solar panels are offering such high payouts with Low/No risk, why do we not see solar farms in Texas? Is there an anti-solar conspiracy? Are investors rejecting profits? The sun isn’t going anywhere. Wind has big investment. Why not solar?

 

There are solar farms in Texas. Off the top of my head, there is one in Brewster County near Alpine, and one in Pecos County.

The one fear Alpine is 50 megawatts and covers hundreds of acres. I think it has over 200,00 panels.

 

edit: googletron tells me 350 acres and 197,000 panels. The panels tilt to maximize the angle for best production, depending on time of year.

 

 

Edited by High Plains Drifter

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Word of advice, be very aggressive about inspecting the boots at the penetrations, ideally you would have standing seam with clips which is what I went to after having terrible leaks for after 6 years or so. There really is no way to reseal the penetrations without removing most of the panels. I also had an inverter fail right around the time the system essentially paid for itself so I was out the new inverter PLUS a roof. The roof was not required but around 1/4 of my roof needed to be replaced so I went with standing seam instead. The new inverter is actually more efficient and is going on 8 years rocking and rolling along. Sunnyboy I believe.

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Word of advice, be very aggressive about inspecting the boots at the penetrations, ideally you would have standing seam with clips which is what I went to after having terrible leaks for after 6 years or so. There really is no way to reseal the penetrations without removing most of the panels. I also had an inverter fail right around the time the system essentially paid for itself so I was out the new inverter PLUS a roof. The roof was not required but around 1/4 of my roof needed to be replaced so I went with standing seam instead. The new inverter is actually more efficient and is going on 8 years rocking and rolling along. Sunnyboy I believe.

We will have a standing seam roof in the design but I’ll ask about clips. Gf is the builder and she’s a rabbit hole researcher so I’m sure she’s gonna look at it.

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Anyone had their roof replaced AFTER having solar panels installed?  I want to know the added cost of such.  Does insurance cover cost of removing and reinstalling panels as part of a roof replacement or is that all out of pocket?  Also, if roof is damaged from poor installation (something they could claim) do the still cover it?

I'm still likely a few more years from seriously looking to add panels, but feel the roof related expenses/issues are of more concern to me as they are never in the payback equations.

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Geo thermal does everything solar does at less cost, no roof connection or leak issues, no aesthetic issues, and has a proven track record whether it's sunny or cloudy. The only thing solar may be able to do better is create excess energy that can be re sold, but that doesn't seem to be a guarantee anyway.  

I've had systems designed that had enough excess energy to heat pools in winter to 104 temps, and system pay offs in the 5-7 year range. 

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One of the biggest selling points of a renewable energy purchase is the tax credit. Since the buyer of a house, already with solar panels, doesn’t get the credit, value is much much lower to them. Perhaps 0. If solar is important to me as a buyer, I might prefer to add solar to a house without them. That way I get the tax credit and full choice of what I want.

if you roll the cost of solar panels into a refi, you basically just lowered your equity and you’re slowly going to get it back over the next 10-20 years at best case. I’m really not seeing that much of an upside financially speaking. You own less of your house now and your solar panels are giving you $20 per month.  If the numbers work out.

and appraisals only mean so much. I’ve rarely heard of an appraisal not coming in what is wanted, within reason.  Be happy with your purchase but stop the crap that it’s a good financial deal.

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