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Formula 1 2021


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3 hours ago, Kdub said:

Fuck Red Bull, they are the aggy of F1. Always crying about something. Horner, Marko and Max need more sand in their vaginas. 

Well, they win so they're not aggy. But they do whine a lot.

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On 7/17/2021 at 5:38 PM, Prepuce of Doom said:

There's a WRX in my area that has all kinds of dive planes and canards and whiskers and flaps and slats and "aero" JDM Pep Boys (Peppubōizu?) shit all over it. I have yet to see it parked, but when I do, I plan to take 20-30 pictures of it - taking a photo while in motion won't do it justice. 

Anyway, that's what all of the aero shit on F1 cars reminds me of, except for the fact that the F1 shit is undoubtedly functional. 

Yeah, it's all functional, and it went pretty over the top a long time ago. Reduce downforce, improve the racing, and sort out who can really drive.

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Posted (edited)
On 7/18/2021 at 9:21 AM, ChickenSandwich said:

Whoever said that “Hamilton missed the apex was the cause” on tv just now nailed it. 

That was Button. Everything he said was spot on imho. He absolutely nailed it & was echoing everything I was thinking. 

- Max gave Lewis plenty of room, so whether or not Lewis was alongside was a moot point. Lewis had ample room to his right, and Max was ahead & had to turn in.

- Lewis entered too hot, was nowhere near the apex, and went much wider after.

- It's supremely difficult to take that line at a speed sufficient to overtake & still make the turn. Lewis should have backed out.

- Max reacted as soon as he could see Lewis, but because Lewis was too fast, wide, and going wider, it was too late. 

- Copse is a terrible spot for that kind of move.

- Lewis missed the apex & put his only competition into the wall at high speed.

I'll add that it's the overtaking driver's responsibility to overtake safely. 

It was interesting over on Autosport, which is an overwhelmingly Brit-dominated board. They had a poll about the incident like they always do. When it got locked, only about 40% of voters categorized the incident as a racing incident ... and no doubt the vast majority of those voters were British.

Edited by wood
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On 7/23/2021 at 4:48 PM, Kdub said:

Fuck Red Bull, they are the aggy of F1. Always crying about something. Horner, Marko and Max need more sand in their vaginas. 

They do cry a lot, but in this case, they aren't wrong.

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Posted (edited)
On 7/18/2021 at 9:30 AM, RamjetFDO said:

Aston Martin CEO (Otmar) weighs in: "meh, let 'em race."

Yeah, well, Otmar is a pos who will say whatever Merc wants, because they supply his engines.

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Posted (edited)
On 7/18/2021 at 9:33 AM, ChickenSandwich said:

This bitching from Toto and Horner is awesome. Love the soap opera. 
 

Did you get my emails!!!??

They should give Lewis a preliminary grid finish penalty and let them litigate it afterwards. That way you don’t mess with the race 

I've said for a long time that these time penalties, esp when you end or ruin someone's race are complete bullshit. Final Classification Position penalties, ftw. Lewis punts Max at very high speed, then gets to go back and fix his car under a red flag that he caused. And gets a slap on the wrist.

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Posted (edited)
On 7/18/2021 at 11:03 AM, PittsburghTiger said:

Part-time stewards is a fucking joke

Yep. Utter farce. These guys raced, but have no real training in officiating. They are also public figures who care about how they are perceived by the public and are thus less likely to take harsh action even when justified.  I've said for years that F1 needs travelling, full-time, trained stewards, armed with consistent, meaningful penalties.

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On 7/18/2021 at 2:04 PM, Fastbreak said:


Exactly. Max never gives away anything. Hamilton was being aggressive but he didn’t make any move towards Max and he could have been avoided. Max is simply always hyper-aggressive and thinks he deserves his spot.

Lewis "didn't make any move towards Max and he could have been avoided"?

First part is nonsense. Second part is bullshit. 

Max HAD to turn in. He was leading and didn't even know Lewis was coming up the inside until after turn-in. Max reacted instantly, but it was too late. Lewis had way more than enough room on his right to avoid Max and turn in, but with so much speed, he missed that apex badly and was not going to make the turn without  going across and exiting very wide.

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On 7/18/2021 at 2:08 PM, 52-80 said:

One if verstappena celebrated wins:

behind going into the corner. Dives on inside. Ends up middle of track at apex. Forces someone out - literally not an inch given at exit. 
 

no penalties. Fuck him. 
 

 

LOL. We see the same kind of move literally every race nowadays, and it's nothing like what happened Sunday. Slow corner, running a guy off at the exit because you've already won the position. This is 100%  accepted practice now for some reason, and everyone including Lewis has done it numerous times.

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Posted (edited)
On 7/19/2021 at 12:22 PM, faps said:

Thanks for this, holy shit!

I see it as a racing incident, two alphas going into that corner. Someone was always gonna lose out. Max would've punted Lewis no question if the roles were reversed.

Schumacher, Mansell, Senna, all those old greats with bowling ball testes would've done the same.

Glad Max is ok.

Senna and Schumi are the reason this kind of shit goes on still today. They started this shit, not caring if they hurt or kill someone by running them into a wall ... for a W. Fuck that shit. And fuck them, too. They both had many great qualities, but fuck 'em both.

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On 7/19/2021 at 6:41 PM, pops said:

First,  glad max is OK. Second, fuck max. Roles reversed he does the same thing 100 times out of 100.  

If it were Lando or leclerc or Ricardo the bitching would be minimal. I get the hamilton hate, but max had plenty of room to bail and cut the apex. Plenty of room to argue whether he should have to and I get both sides. 

I dont want to see anyone going into the wall like that (well, except maybe mazepin) but I also want to see fucking racing. Max clearly has the best car and is equal to or better than Hamilton in skill. 

Hopefully red bull can save the engine because a late season grid penalty would suck. If max wins the title great. He deserves it. If Lewis wins again because max has to serve a grid penalty in saudi arabia or Abu dabi (or both) then that is definitely hollow. 

Do you have an example of Max pulling something like this at a fast corner like Copse?

And the bitching - at least from my end - would be the same no matter who pulled some shit like this.

You "wanna see racing" but what the "let em race" crowd doesn't get is that if this kind of thing is allowed, it will have a chilling effect on racing. All an attacking driver would have to do is go up the inside too fast, with zero regard for making the apex, and go through to the far side of the track to exit. The lead driver would have nowhere at all to go. 

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Posted (edited)

 

On 7/21/2021 at 11:33 AM, Chewbacca said:

Then maybe next time Max can back out of it instead of initiating contact.

Holy shit, man. Max was leading & turned in when he needed to to make the apex. He gave Hamilton ample room. By rule he only needs to give him 1 car-width, but he gave him much more than that. Max saw Lewis after turn-in and reacted, but it was too late. Lewis had loads of room to react, but still missed the apex by virtual miles in F1 terms ... and Max initiated contact?

You're fucking crazy.

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3 hours ago, wood said:

Senna and Schumi are the reason this kind of shit goes on still today. They started this shit, not caring if they hurt or kill someone by running them into a wall ... for a W. Fuck that shit. And fuck them, too. They both had many great qualities, but fuck 'em both.

You've got to always leava da space. 

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8 hours ago, wood said:

Senna and Schumi are the reason this kind of shit goes on still today. They started this shit, not caring if they hurt or kill someone by running them into a wall ... for a W. Fuck that shit. And fuck them, too. They both had many great qualities, but fuck 'em both.

yeah, senna was a hot headed prick that gets the same sort of old-timey pass that jordan does

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16 hours ago, wood said:

 

Holy shit, man. Max was leading & turned in when he needed to to make the apex. He gave Hamilton ample room. By rule he only needs to give him 1 car-width, but he gave him much more than that. Max saw Lewis after turn-in and reacted, but it was too late. Lewis had loads of room to react, but still missed the apex by virtual miles in F1 terms ... and Max initiated contact?

You're fucking crazy.

Watch the video linked above.  I was thinking it was probably 60% Lewis' fault before I watched that.  But after, I would say it's 55/45 with Max being the 55.  You can see Max turn right into Lewis on the video.  He thought Lewis would back out and Max being Max, he took the aggressive route.  It didn't pay off for him.  Should have been no penalty, IMO, but the 10 seconds made it a more exciting race.

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1 hour ago, Chewbacca said:

Watch the video linked above.  I was thinking it was probably 60% Lewis' fault before I watched that.  But after, I would say it's 55/45 with Max being the 55.  You can see Max turn right into Lewis on the video.  He thought Lewis would back out and Max being Max, he took the aggressive route.  It didn't pay off for him.  Should have been no penalty, IMO, but the 10 seconds made it a more exciting race.

So your evidence is that Max turned right? On a high speed, uh, right turn?

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Max turned in aggressively because he thought Lewis would back out as he has done multiple times this season.  Lewis didn't back out and therefore they had contact.  Everyone else isn't required to get out of Max's way just because he's aggressive.  That's not how it works.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Chewbacca said:

Max turned in aggressively because he thought Lewis would back out as he has done multiple times this season.  Lewis didn't back out and therefore they had contact.  Everyone else isn't required to get out of Max's way just because he's aggressive.  That's not how it works.

You’re conveniently failing to mention that Hamilton couldn’t keep his line because he had just slipstreamed and taken an extremely tight inside line on the fastest corner in the circuit. Hamilton made the aggressive, risky move that he ultimately couldn’t control and came off his line into Verstappen. 
 

Sure, Verstappen could have and probably should have done more to account for Hamilton’s move, but that doesn’t make it Max’s fault. Lewis made a desperate move that he knew would cause Max to have to back out or get taken out. Pretty much a win-win for Lewis, except that it could draw a penalty.
 

Unfortunately, the good for nothing temps, I mean Silverstone stewards, assigned a penalty that was never going to actually do anything. Should’ve been a stop-go. Lewis getting to fix his car under the red flag he caused is an absurd rule.

Edited by Burt Macklin
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8 minutes ago, Burt Macklin said:

You’re conveniently failing to mention that Hamilton couldn’t keep his line because he had just slipstreamed and taken an extremely tight inside line on the fastest corner in the circuit. Hamilton made the aggressive, risky move that he ultimately couldn’t control and came off his line into Verstappen. 
 

Sure, Verstappen could have and probably should have done more to account for Hamilton’s move, but that doesn’t make it Max’s fault. Lewis made a desperate move that he knew would cause Max to have to back out or get taken out. Pretty much a win-win for Lewis, except that it could draw a penalty.
 

Unfortunately, the good for nothing temps, I mean Silverstone stewards, assigned a penalty that was never going to actually do anything. Should’ve been a stop-go. Lewis getting to fix his car under the red flag he caused is an absurd rule.

Clearly we see it differently.  Let's not pretend there is consensus on this in the F1 world.  

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3 hours ago, Chewbacca said:

Watch the video linked above.  I was thinking it was probably 60% Lewis' fault before I watched that.  But after, I would say it's 55/45 with Max being the 55.  You can see Max turn right into Lewis on the video.  He thought Lewis would back out and Max being Max, he took the aggressive route.  It didn't pay off for him.  Should have been no penalty, IMO, but the 10 seconds made it a more exciting race.

Max left ample room for Lewis - much more than he is required to by rule. He had fulfilled his obligation and was simply turning in, as he had to do and as Lewis should have been doing as well. Multiple drivers have pointed out that Lewis simply came in too hot, losing some downforce from pulling partly alongside Max, and understeered into him rather than being able to make the apex. He was never making it anywhere near that apex on that line and at that speed. Don't get me wrong. I don't think Lewis did it on purpose. I think he really just got it wrong.

Your suggestion that the race leader should simply back out of the lead of the race just because someone pulls alongside them, never even pulling even with them, is frankly mind-blowing. Indeed, Max couldn't have just backed out anyway. He turned in, likely not thinking anyone would be foolish enough to try a move there (as Button and others have noted). He saw Lewis, then reacted trying to avoid the collision he saw coming...but it was too late.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Chewbacca said:

Max turned in aggressively because he thought Lewis would back out as he has done multiple times this season.  Lewis didn't back out and therefore they had contact.  Everyone else isn't required to get out of Max's way just because he's aggressive.  That's not how it works.

He turned in the way he needed to for such a high-speed turn as Copse, and he did it the same way drivers have done for decades. There was nothing at all 'aggressive' about it. That's nonsense.  

Re: getting out of Max's way, you're demonstrating your lack of knowledge of 'how things work' in this regard. Max left much more than enough space. It all would have been fine had Lewis not overcooked it and been on a bad line. And had Lewis not overcooked it, he likely would have gotten the position anyway, without destroying Red Bull's weekend.

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28 minutes ago, Burt Macklin said:

You’re conveniently failing to mention that Hamilton couldn’t keep his line because he had just slipstreamed and taken an extremely tight inside line on the fastest corner in the circuit. Hamilton made the aggressive, risky move that he ultimately couldn’t control and came off his line into Verstappen. 
 

Sure, Verstappen could have and probably should have done more to account for Hamilton’s move, but that doesn’t make it Max’s fault. Lewis made a desperate move that he knew would cause Max to have to back out or get taken out. Pretty much a win-win for Lewis, except that it could draw a penalty.
 

Unfortunately, the good for nothing temps, I mean Silverstone stewards, assigned a penalty that was never going to actually do anything. Should’ve been a stop-go. Lewis getting to fix his car under the red flag he caused is an absurd rule.

This is exactly correct.

And re: Max not accounting for the likelihood of Lewis making that move ... drivers talk a great deal about knowing who you are racing. Everyone has different tendencies in wheel-to-wheel combat. Different limits. Different levels of aggression or submission. Lewis, no matter what any of us thinks about him off the track, is a master of car control and has way more often than not shown great judgement in these kinds of situations.  No doubt Max thought there was no way Lewis was going to try a wild move like that or that he would misjudge it and get it wrong, much less both. It was a highly unusual, uncharacteristic moment for Lewis on both counts.

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I’m not trying to turn this into another pissing match, because the race happened over a week ago and we had this discussion then, so I’ll say a few words and then I’m on to Hungary.

1) Firstly, there is no actual obligation to make the apex. It is not a rule. James Allison pointed this out himself in the Mercedes debrief video. When two cars battle, they will both deviate from the ideal line anyway to make room for each other (see Luffield, literally two corners before, where none of them made the apex). The trajectory that both cars were taking meant that they were likely always going to crash unless one of them backed out. They didn’t. Max even opened his steering up mid corner as if he saw Lewis, but then turned right back in as if he had expected him to back out of it (which he has in every other assertive instance with Max this year to avoid a collision, such as Imola and Spain).

2) The opinion that it is a racing incident doesn’t mean we think that it was “Max’s fault”. It means that we think they are both to blame equally, even though “responsible” is probably a better word, since it wasn’t intentional from either side. Even the stewards ruling doesn’t say that Hamilton was deemed fully at fault, only predominantly, leaving Max a bit culpable as-is.

2) Alonso, Leclerc, Rosberg, Peter Windsor, Tom Kristensen, Mika Hakkinen, Damon Hill, JPM, Jolyon Palmer, Chandhok, Mika Salo (who gave Lewis the goofy penalties for the practice start incidents in Sochi last year), Honda F1 managing director Mashashi Yamamoto, and various others believe it to be a racing incident, so to say that the people who take that stance are wrong or are showing a lack of knowledge is somewhat comical. There are obviously some
drivers/pundits that felt otherwise, but it is clearly split.

4) This is the most polarizing F1 incident in quite a while, and not many people are going to easily change their mind on it, in either direction.

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22 minutes ago, Anton Chigurh said:

I’m not trying to turn this into another pissing match, because the race happened over a week ago and we had this discussion then, so I’ll say a few words and then I’m on to Hungary.

1) Firstly, there is no actual obligation to make the apex. It is not a rule. James Allison pointed this out himself in the Mercedes debrief video. When two cars battle, they will both deviate from the ideal line anyway to make room for each other (see Luffield, literally two corners before, where none of them made the apex). The trajectory that both cars were taking meant that they were likely always going to crash unless one of them backed out. They didn’t. Max even opened his steering up mid corner as if he saw Lewis, but then turned right back in as if he had expected him to back out of it (which he has in every other assertive instance with Max this year to avoid a collision, such as Imola and Spain).

2) The opinion that it is a racing incident doesn’t mean we think that it was “Max’s fault”. It means that we think they are both to blame equally, even though “responsible” is probably a better word, since it wasn’t intentional from either side. Even the stewards ruling doesn’t say that Hamilton was deemed fully at fault, only predominantly, leaving Max a bit culpable as-is.

2) Alonso, Leclerc, Rosberg, Peter Windsor, Tom Kristensen, Mika Hakkinen, Damon Hill, JPM, Jolyon Palmer, Chandhok, Mika Salo (who gave Lewis the goofy penalties for the practice start incidents in Sochi last year), Honda F1 managing director Mashashi Yamamoto, and various others believe it to be a racing incident, so to say that the people who take that stance are wrong or are showing a lack of knowledge is somewhat comical. There are obviously some
drivers/pundits that felt otherwise, but it is clearly split.

4) This is the most polarizing F1 incident in quite a while, and not many people are going to easily change their mind on it, in either direction.

Great post.  

In regards to 1, racing is not qualifying or doing a DE event. You often drive different lines with not a lot of regard for the apex.  You take a corner early to "close the door" if you are defending.  You take a corner wide for an over under (or to just mess with your opponent).  When going 2 or 3 wide none of you are going to be on the racing line.  You adjust constantly based on what your goal is.

Agree with #2 as well but I would put this 60/40 (maybe 55/45) on Hamilton only because he needed a few more inches alongside Max for it to have been 50/50. I watched the video a couple times but didn't study it but it did look like Max late broke pretty heavy which made the difference look a little greater than it was. Hamilton was wide, Max did turn in.  That said, I do agree with the theory/rule (this rule applies to PCA and assume it applies to F1) it's the responsibility of the overtaking car to do so safely. Under PCA rules, Hamilton would have gotten what they call a "13" which put you on probation for 13 months since he was the overtaking car and there was an accident.

In the end, Max would have done the exact same thing..and, probably more aggressively.  

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1 hour ago, Anton Chigurh said:

I’m not trying to turn this into another pissing match, because the race happened over a week ago and we had this discussion then, so I’ll say a few words and then I’m on to Hungary.

1) Firstly, there is no actual obligation to make the apex. It is not a rule. James Allison pointed this out himself in the Mercedes debrief video. When two cars battle, they will both deviate from the ideal line anyway to make room for each other (see Luffield, literally two corners before, where none of them made the apex). The trajectory that both cars were taking meant that they were likely always going to crash unless one of them backed out. They didn’t. Max even opened his steering up mid corner as if he saw Lewis, but then turned right back in as if he had expected him to back out of it (which he has in every other assertive instance with Max this year to avoid a collision, such as Imola and Spain).

There is no obligation to make the apex, but there is an obligation not to run into another car that is ahead, has given the attacking car space, and is just turning in in an attempt to merely negotiate the turn. Lewis overcooked it, leading to understeer taking him offline, so he couldn't stay out of Max. Like I said, I have 100% confidence that Lewis just made a mistake, was not intending to end up where he ended up, and would do it all much better given a second chance. 

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in.  That said, I do agree with the theory/rule (this rule applies to PCA and assume it applies to F1) it's the responsibility of the overtaking car to do so safely. Under PCA rules, Hamilton would have gotten what they call a "13" which put you on probation for 13 months since he was the overtaking car and there was an accident.
In the end, Max would have done the exact same thing..and, probably more aggressively.  


I can get behind this, but WRT to club racing, I will say that it is such a hugely different ballgame that I would expect them to treat incidents almost completely different from F1.
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27 minutes ago, Anton Chigurh said:

I can get behind this, but WRT to club racing, I will say that it is such a hugely different ballgame that I would expect them to treat incidents almost completely different from F1.

Oh, clearly a world of difference. I was just basing it from where I was coming from and the rules I am used to and assumed they applied here. Due to their expertise, there has to be much more of a grey area here whereas in PCA it's very black and white.  

 

48 minutes ago, wood said:

Like I said, I have 100% confidence that Lewis just made a mistake, was not intending to end up where he ended up, and would do it all much better given a second chance.

Honestly, I am a Hamilton fan and becoming a Max fan (I originally was a fan until he got a little aggressive but now that he is calming down I am warming up).  That being said, being behind in the championship, I am not sure Hamilton would have backed out given the second chance (just to be clear I think he should have but he probably would have lost if he did).  I am the nicest guy in the world not on a track but on a track it's Jekyll and Hyde. I know a lot of people like that.   

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1 minute ago, Atxracer said:

Honestly, I am a Hamilton fan and becoming a Max fan (I originally was a fan until he got a little aggressive but now that he is calming down I am warming up).  That being said, being behind in the championship, I am not sure Hamilton would have backed out given the second chance (just to be clear I think he should have but he probably would have lost if he did).  I am the nicest guy in the world not on a track but on a track it's Jekyll and Hyde. I know a lot of people like that.   

I think a more characteristic Hamilton move would be to back out of it before it all went so wrong, but that's not what I meant by 'doing it better'. That could be one of the outcomes, but I also think that if he did try it again, I think he'd just do a better job of it (getting the braking right, not understeering, etc).

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1 hour ago, wood said:

I think a more characteristic Hamilton move would be to back out of it before it all went so wrong, but that's not what I meant by 'doing it better'. That could be one of the outcomes, but I also think that if he did try it again, I think he'd just do a better job of it (getting the braking right, not understeering, etc).

I think I know what you are saying and agree about knowing drivers styles and being predictable. Max was probably thinking, it’s Hamilton, he will back out so I will come in. What I think he missed is, this Hamilton is down in the points so maybe he will drive more aggressively and not back out and maybe I should stay out and not come in. 

In re Hamilton, I still think he would do the same thing in a redo given the circumstances.  But, now that this has happened, I think he will back out next time. 

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12 hours ago, Atxracer said:

I think I know what you are saying and agree about knowing drivers styles and being predictable. Max was probably thinking, it’s Hamilton, he will back out so I will come in. What I think he missed is, this Hamilton is down in the points so maybe he will drive more aggressively and not back out and maybe I should stay out and not come in. 

In re Hamilton, I still think he would do the same thing in a redo given the circumstances.  But, now that this has happened, I think he will back out next time. 

Yeah, if similar circumstances occur again, there's no way Max will leave any room at all.  Which could certainly result in yet another "racing incident" and that's the opposite of what needs to happen.  

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I was thinking the reverse. If similar circumstances occur, max has to leave room or the same result will happen. Hamilton was enough beside him even after the late brake by Max so Max couldn’t come in…but he did expecting Hamilton to back out.  Now he will just not be so sure Hamilton will back out like he normally does (but, he probably will due to this event). 
 

However, in the reverse where Max is in the inside, there is no chance he will back out and will probably brake late just to push Hamilton out more and knows Hamilton has to stay out because of this incident and if Hamilton doesn’t, it would easily cause another crash. 

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So, Red Bull’s appeal/right to review or whatever it’s called was dismissed today.

But in the last paragraph of the ruling, the stewards state this:

7d563469349ec4640685700c977580b6.jpg


Mercedes also tweeted this:

b3366c355595a58a60e20818648482dd.png


So it sounds to me like Red Bull essentially defamed Hamilton in their official appeal letter and accused him of doing it on purpose. They also literally rented out Silverstone for a day and used Alex Albon in an older car trying to prove that the corner wasn’t “makeable”.

Man, no wonder Daniel left. What a looney bin that place is.

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The cray oozes off the RBR team.  And Horner's got a serious case of little man's disease.

 

I really want to root for RBR.  I like Max and I like Checo.  But Horner's just such a little prick I can't take them.

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8 hours ago, Chewbacca said:

The cray oozes off the RBR team.  And Horner's got a serious case of little man's disease.

 

I really want to root for RBR.  I like Max and I like Checo.  But Horner's just such a little prick I can't take them.

Toto would take his limey fanny behind the woodshed and beat him to a pulp.

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Gotta love that RBR's appeal consisted of Albon driving an RB15 trying to prove that Lewis couldn't have made the corner.  Different (and older) car, different tires, different track temps, etc.  Not at all the same, but knock yourself out, guys.  Everyone else is laughing at you, though.

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Checo isn't even all that likeable as a driver to be honest. The only personality I can really appreciate is Adrian Newey and he never gets to say anything, or never wants to. The cherry on top being Marko. Goddamn, what a miserable team. 

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