Realignment talk not going away

[rickyspub 801]

4 minutes ago, Barry_McCokiner said:

Nah.  They're right next to Dallas.  They'll always recruit well, especially in the SEC

Yep, and if the Big 12 is killed off, they have even less competition for recruits. Sure Texas and aggy are always going to be there as local options for the handful of truly elite guys, but it makes getting your pick from the Top 50 in Texas all the easier with no other P5 programs in the vicinity.

17 minutes ago, Al_4_ISU said:

OU and UT aren't going to get better playoff access or control of league affairs by joining someone else's conference. 

The question for OU is would you rather be the current OU program or the current Nebraska or Aggy program.  Because if they join the Big 10 or SEC, that's what's coming.

If the Big 12 dies, then the playoffs start by winning your division. Do you think OU is scared of the shitty Big 10 West? The SEC West would likely see Bama move east with Auburn. Do you think OU is afraid to compete in a division with aggy, LSU, Missouri, Arkansas, Ole Miss, Miss St, and either us or Okla State?

[cochamps 1,866]

11 minutes ago, Barry_McCokiner said:

Nah.  They're right next to Dallas.  They'll always recruit well, especially in the SEC

Talking about control, not recruiting

[Al_4_ISU 12,199]

Aggy recruits well.  What's that gotten them?

I don't think OU is afraid of anything recruiting wise, but they're idiots if they don't think what's happened in previous realignment moves can't/won't happen to them.  They have little incentive to leave the Big 12, other than some posters on DirtBurglars that want another blue blood on the schedule.  All the Big 10 West gives them on that front is Nebraska.  The SEC West puts them in a position to go 8-4 a lot more than they go 11-1.

Edited February 27, 2019 by Al_4_ISU

[SnowAggy 154]

2 minutes ago, rickyspub said:

Yep, and if the Big 12 is killed off, they have even less competition for recruits. Sure Texas and aggy are always going to be there as local options for the handful of truly elite guys, but it makes getting your pick from the Top 50 in Texas all the easier with no other P5 programs in the vicinity.

If the Big 12 dies, then the playoffs start by winning your division. Do you think OU is scared of the shitty Big 10 West? The SEC West would likely see Bama move east with Auburn. Do you think OU is afraid to compete in a division with aggy, LSU, Missouri, Arkansas, Ole Miss, Miss St, and either us or Okla State?

No, in fact I think the resurgence of NU is going to put them in the B1G West.

[rickyspub 801]

1 minute ago, cochamps said:

Talking about control, not recruiting

And as far as control goes, I would say OU has way more in common with the leaders of either the Big 10 or SEC than with the teams in the Big 12. Outside of Michigan, which is the only school who takes the football/academics divide more seriously than we do, the power schools are more about greasing the wheels of success for themselves than academics or real conference equity. 

[rickyspub 801]

2 minutes ago, Al_4_ISU said:

Aggy recruits well.  What's that gotten them?

No more than what they got when they were in the Big 12. Ultimately, they get more money to be mediocre in the SEC.

OU will look at it as a chance to keep winning while getting more money and exposure. I am sure they see they don't have anything in common with aggy. Nebraska might be the better test case, but Nebraska's downfall preceded their move to the Big 10 and was predicated on changes that actually had little to do with the Big 12 or Big 10.

[Valmy77 12,519]

5 minutes ago, rickyspub said:

And as far as control goes, I would say OU has way more in common with the leaders of either the Big 10 or SEC than with the teams in the Big 12. Outside of Michigan, which is the only school who takes the football/academics divide more seriously than we do, the power schools are more about greasing the wheels of success for themselves than academics or real conference equity. 

That makes no sense at all. First of all it was about OU's power not who they have more in common with. Secondly they have nothing in common with the Big 8 schools? WTF?

Yeah OU is a dominant power in the Big 12. In one of those other super conferences they would a second tier player. But that point weakens your case so let's obfuscate by introducing some weird concept like how much in common they have with Kentucky and Minnesota.

[Al_4_ISU 12,199]

3 minutes ago, rickyspub said:

No more than what they got when they were in the Big 12. Ultimately, they get more money to be mediocre in the SEC.

OU will look at it as a chance to keep winning while getting more money and exposure. I am sure they see they don't have anything in common with aggy. Nebraska might be the better test case, but Nebraska's downfall preceded their move to the Big 10 and was predicated on changes that actually had little to do with the Big 12 or Big 10.

Which is what I see happening to OU with a conference shift.

Probably UT as well.  Especially with you guys on the upswing.  But I see less desire from UT fans to change the status quo.

Not playing in Texas has definitely hurt Nebraska's recruiting.  Most Nebraska fans I know will even admit that.  Oklahoma has proximity in their favor, but they will not recruit Texas as well as they do if they aren't playing games there.

[Valmy77 12,519]

4 minutes ago, rickyspub said:

OU will look at it as a chance to keep winning while getting more money and exposure.

And OU's best way to do that is to stay here. 

[Al_4_ISU 12,199]

How is OU going to get more exposure?  They're inescapable in football season.

[SnowAggy 154]

3 minutes ago, Al_4_ISU said:

Which is what I see happening to OU with a conference shift.

Probably UT as well.  Especially with you guys on the upswing.  But I see less desire from UT fans to change the status quo.

Not playing in Texas has definitely hurt Nebraska's recruiting.  Most Nebraska fans I know will even admit that.  Oklahoma has proximity in their favor, but they will not recruit Texas as well as they do if they aren't playing games there.

But they could.  They could keep the RRS with UT's permission.  They could put aTm on the schedule...

I don't think OU will fare better with a conference move.  But their fans seem to think Big 12 is responsible for their inability to seal the deal with the national championship.

[rickyspub 801]

2 minutes ago, Valmy77 said:

That makes no sense at all. First of all it was about OU's power not who they have more in common with. Secondly they have nothing in common with the Big 8 schools? WTF?

Yeah OU is a dominant power in the Big 12. In one of those other super conferences they would a second tier player. But that point weakens your case so let's obfuscate by introducing some weird concept like how much in common they have with Kentucky and Minnesota.

You make it sound like these conferences are engaged in constant internal warfare! There is very little that goes on that requires power plays of any sort. Unless you have evidence otherwise. OU is going to vote with Bama or Ohio State with common cause on most issues.

OU and UT have power in the Big 12, but it isn't absolute. UT lost their bid to build a conference network. OU has pushed expansion and been shot down every time. OU wanted Louisville and got stuck with TCU instead. A 16-team super conference is likely going to be much, much more stable than the Big 12.

[rickyspub 801]

3 minutes ago, Al_4_ISU said:

How is OU going to get more exposure?  They're inescapable in football season.

They want a national presence for their T3 content. They have other programs than football and they are stuck on a regional network while the Big 10, SEC, and soon the ACC are getting their programs a national audience.

[Magus Ossis 2,737]

We played OU before there was a SWC. We played them when we were conference-mates in SWC. We played them after they left the SWC. We play them as conference-mates in the B12. I would be surprised to see our series with them end, even should we head for different conferences (again).

[Valmy77 12,519]

3 minutes ago, rickyspub said:

You make it sound like these conferences are engaged in constant internal warfare! There is very little that goes on that requires power plays of any sort. Unless you have evidence otherwise. OU is going to vote with Bama or Ohio State with common cause on most issues.

OU and UT have power in the Big 12, but it isn't absolute. UT lost their bid to build a conference network. OU has pushed expansion and been shot down every time. OU wanted Louisville and got stuck with TCU instead. A 16-team super conference is likely going to be much, much more stable than the Big 12.

Of course they are going to vote with Ohio State or Bama, they will be their bitch. Anyway yes I am going to produce evidence to support or deny a hypothetical dream conference involving an issue that is not defined. What a dishonest way to win your argument.

TCU was already in the conference before the Louisville business. OU voted with the unanimous majority to not expand last time.

And a 16 team super conference will be equally as stable as the Big 12 because the Big 12 is going to be very stable in the future. And we won't be in some garbage conference where you play your conference mates once every 20 years. 

[Valmy77 12,519]

7 minutes ago, Magus Ossis said:

We played OU before there was a SWC. We played them when we were conference-mates in SWC. We played them after they left the SWC. We play them as conference-mates in the B12. I would be surprised to see our series with them end, even should we head for different conferences (again).

Those were different eras. Now in the time where you are rewarded for playing four G5/FCS teams I doubt the series would continue. OU ended their annual game with Nebraska didn't they? And then it ended for good when Nebraska went to the Big 10. If OU leaves the Big 12 the Texas/OU weekend is dead forever. That probably goes for Bedlam as well. But hey OU doesn't need rivals or prestige they just want a few million more dollars to hang out with big brother Ohio State or Alabama.

Edited February 27, 2019 by Valmy77

[sushihorn 3,215]

14 minutes ago, SnowAggy said:

I don't think OU will fare better with a conference move.  But their fans seem to think Big 12 is responsible for their inability to seal the deal with the national championship.

That's bizarrely irrational since their affiliation with the Big XII keeps getting them a spot in the CFP.  Maybe they've convinced themselves that the rest of the conference is somehow responsible for them losing those games...

[Valmy77 12,519]

Though I do have to admit that if OU does fuck us, we probably have to go with them wherever they go. We need them to make this conference work.

Hopefully Oklahoma State has enough pull in the Oklahoma Government to keep that from happening.

[Magus Ossis 2,737]

2 minutes ago, Valmy77 said:

Those were different eras. Now in the time where you are rewarded for playing four G5/FCS teams I doubt the series would continue. OU ended their annual game with Nebraska didn't they? And then it ended for good when Nebraska went to the Big 10. If OU leaves the Big 12 the Texas/OU weekend is dead forever.

You are right that the times they are a changing. I think two significant distinctions in the case of the OU game are that (1) we have long played it as OOC, and (2) it is a big part of their identity: they matter in Dallas in part because they are the other football pole opposed to the one to the south. And they would need a new hand-sign if they quit playing us. Also, that game makes TV money. Some network would surely try to get that to continue so as to get a cut of it.

[SnowAggy 154]

4 minutes ago, sushihorn said:

That's bizarrely irrational since their affiliation with the Big XII keeps getting them a spot in the CFP.  Maybe they've convinced themselves that the rest of the conference is somehow responsible for them losing those games...

You're exactly right but I'm sure you've heard this.

It's like they totally forgot their Big 8 past.  OU racked up a bunch of National Titles while beating up on ISU, KSU, oSu, and KU every year.  It's why I think they'll end up in the B1G West; fairly easy access to the B1G championship game...

[rickyspub 801]

 

12 minutes ago, Valmy77 said:

Of course they are going to vote with Ohio State or Bama, they will be their bitch. Anyway yes I am going to produce evidence to support or deny a hypothetical dream conference involving an issue that is not defined. What a dishonest way to win your argument.

TCU was already in the conference before the Louisville business. OU voted with the unanimous majority to not expand last time.

And a 16 team super conference will be equally as stable as the Big 12 because the Big 12 is going to be very stable in the future. And we won't be in some garbage conference where you play your conference mates once every 20 years. 

I am not defending OU here. I am saying their casus belli has been well-tread in public already. Unless their new leadership has done a flip-flop, OU has been the most vocal in finding issues with the Big 12 since the last teams left and they are the last team to publicly try to leave the conference. I don't give a damn about guessing whether or not OU is going to fail if and when they move. I'll save that for when it happens, but I am sure OU has looked at the evidence themselves and will factor that in when it comes decision time. I am merely saying OU's reasons for moving are already out there for public consumption and the Big 12 has little in their arsenal to fix those issues.

Control and power within a conference are likely somewhat overrated, unless you are in a dire position. OU has leverage in the Big 12 but only because the conference dies without them. The problem is that the Big 12 has very little to give to fix that. (UT could drop the LHN or try to get it turned in to a Big 12 network, but the Big 12 has no control over that and even Texas has to get ESPN on board.) Also, just because they publicly say a vote was unanimous doesn't mean that any school necessarily wanted to vote that way. I think OU would have been happy to expand now and then use the subsequent weak media deal as another reason to leave. 

[kopp0e 1,135]

1 hour ago, SnowAggy said:

No, in fact I think the resurgence of NU is going to put them in the B1G West.

A potential schedule for UT in a new SWC:

 

Also, OU is still hampered if UT/ Tech & A&M are all in the SEC, (or God forbid, even Oklahoma State; as Mizzou joins B1G)...
That impacts recruits, staying "close to home" in SEC/ vs playing in a Great Lakes league, but it looks as if OU & UT are in lockstep...

Edited February 27, 2019 by kopp0e

[Valmy77 12,519]

The Big 12 was brilliant for not expanding. I think the intelligence of expanding for the sake of expanding is playing out over in the PAC 12.

[rickyspub 801]

11 minutes ago, HighlandMidge said:

Except BYU would bring more money to the table then most of the members already in the Big 12.  

Utah brings nothing, to very little to the table.  

I think we see the agenda here, no? How many account names have you burned here?

BYU just isn't a good enough product to move the needle, especially when they really have to bring in enough value to cover for a second, even weaker product. 

1 minute ago, Valmy77 said:

The Big 12 was brilliant for not expanding. I think the intelligence of expanding for the sake of expanding is playing out over in the PAC 12.

Agreed. Unfortunately, I just think OU is lining things up to leave. Pushing the latest, failed expansion process was just another way for them to add an excuse on their reasons for leaving. If we add, then OU knows the new TV contracts would suck and that no one would have any interest in a Big 12 network just because we added some weak pretenders. If we didn't add, then they can claim the rest of the conference is against them or that they want to get away from the round-robin/CCG set up, which the Big 12 can't do away with unless they sacrifice the quality of play or the value of their media deal.

Edited February 27, 2019 by rickyspub

[Hagbard Celine 10,498]

1 hour ago, Al_4_ISU said:

OU and UT aren't going to get better playoff access or control of league affairs by joining someone else's conference. 

The question for OU is would you rather be the current OU program or the current Nebraska or Aggy program.  Because if they join the Big 10 or SEC, that's what's coming.

if they went west they'd be 1a or 1b with usc

if north, 1a/1b/1c with meatchicken and jort

if east, 2a/2b/2c with lsu and dawg (until florida or tenn gets their shit together)

if acc, they would be the 1a or 1b with clemson (until fsu gets their shit together)

i hate the thieves, but i respect their stadium wall.  they have been cheating, but at least they got the job done.

unlike gomer, who cheats and still can't put legit numbers on the side of the stadium.

nope, 0u remains relevant wherever they go.  they will not go the way of corn.

including aggy in the comparison is laughable.

[Hagbard Celine 10,498]

1 hour ago, Al_4_ISU said:

Oklahoma has proximity in their favor, but they will not recruit Texas as well as they do if they aren't playing games there.

sorry Al don't mean to pick you.

the switzer teams were 70% texas kids defecting north, and at the time they only played 1 game a year in the state, and never hosted a texas team in norman.

[SwanderedTalent 5,761]

3 minutes ago, Hagbard Celine said:

the switzer teams were 70% texas kids defecting north, and at the time they only played 1 game a year in the state, and never hosted a texas team in norman.

is what happened nearly 50 years ago really relevant in projecting what would happen to OU in the Big Ten?

[Hagbard Celine 10,498]

35 minutes ago, HighlandMidge said:

Except BYU would bring more money to the table then most of the members already in the Big 12.  

The Big 12 has already proven they are dumb as shit with not expanding and going to a RR CCG.  

This.   Get rid of the stupid P5/G5 nonsense that was created artificially by the P5 cartel to avoid splitting the $ with other schools and conferences, group the schools together by geography and have a true playoff.  

Utah brings nothing, to very little to the table.  

Is that you shmitty?  Window cougar don't have no power of the priesthood 'round here.  Happy to discuss salamanders and mountain meadows with you any time.

/investigator

[Hagbard Celine 10,498]

5 minutes ago, SwanderedTalent said:

is what happened nearly 50 years ago really relevant in projecting what would happen to OU in the Big Ten?

As long as fair park remains intact, 0u could go to China for the rest of their schedule and still recruit north texas.  there are easily 100000 0u grads here, and in any given year 200 legacies playing as high school juniors and seniors around the metroplex.

And it's not just 50 years ago.  I count 30 on their 2019 roster.  And what 0u has done is go national for another 1/3rd.  0u already is about as diversified as they can possibly be, and yet still make the fucking playoff every year.

0u can go anywhere with no adverse effect on them other than to the sEc west unless bama and barn simultaneously moved east.

But none of this is going to happen because 0u's little brother problem is not going to make itself go away like ours did.

[ButtFumble 5,065]

23 minutes ago, rickyspub said:

I think we see the agenda here, no? How many account names have you burned here?

BYU just isn't a good enough product to move the needle, especially when they really have to bring in enough value to cover for a second, even weaker product. 

Agreed. Unfortunately, I just think OU is lining things up to leave. Pushing the latest, failed expansion process was just another way for them to add an excuse on their reasons for leaving. If we add, then OU knows the new TV contracts would suck and that no one would have any interest in a Big 12 network just because we added some weak pretenders. If we didn't add, then they can claim the rest of the conference is against them or that they want to get away from the round-robin/CCG set up, which the Big 12 can't do away with unless they sacrifice the quality of play or the value of their media deal.

if ou claims lack of expansion as a reason to leave they are even more full of shit than nebraska and aggy

is ou really going to claim that not adding uh or Cincy or any of the other G5 piles of shit that were available is why they left the Big 12....get the fuck out of here

not to mention there was ZERO way no matter how you worked it short of giving new conference members 65% of a full share for all 8 years of the current TV deal that the current members of the Big 12 would have even broken even much less made even a dollar more for adding any of the two available teams....fuck face boren was too stubborn and stupid to understand that until he had publicly embarrassed the Big 12 and shitted away millions of dollars on asshole consultants to tell him what anyone with a fucking clue already knew

and the Big 12 was not going to get a conference network for adding any of the available G5 shit and that asshole had to have consultants and ESPN and Fox tell him that too

the fucking answer is simple PLAY FEWER CONFERENCE GAMES PERIOD there is massive upside to this and ZERO downside unless one considers the "downside to be the Big 12 can no longer jack off over in a corner along and talk about errrwon play errone and won truu campion which has proven time and again to be a shitty concept, something no one gives a fuck about and MEANINGLESS

the math has been made clear by a PAC 12 study when you replace a random conference game with even a TOTALLY SHITTY OOC game the net benefit is positive for the strength of schedule of the vast majority of the conference especially the top teams and again that does not mean the top teams have to play a shitty OC game it simply means that even if they do it is still better for them

the reason is that when the lower level teams in the conference replace a loss with a POTENTIAL OOC win the fact that if they win those games over 50% of the time means they are a much better opponent for strength of schedule for the other conference members they play.....because taking a loss in a conference game does nothing to help anyone Vs beating even a shitty team in the OOC.....who gives a fuck how Baylor and Kansas schedule as long as they win more games than they do now because the more they win the better they are for strength of schedule for EVERYONE ELSE......because a bad win will never be worse than a good loss for the strength of schedule especially for the other teams playing you

then there is the concept of fewer conference games making it less likely that a CCG features a rematch which of course in the shitty setup of the Big 12 guarantees that

if the Big 12 played 7 conference games it would be amazing for the entire conference

and there is ZERO need to add teams or partner with anyone to do so....NONE

[Valmy77 12,519]

Man that is a depressing read. Get ready for more thrilling games with Incarnate Word.

Well argued though.

Edited February 27, 2019 by Valmy77

[rickyspub 801]

OU will make whatever claims fit the moment if they decide to leave. Everyone who left the Big 12 used the LHN as a rearguard excuse, even though its existence post-dated everyone's decision to leave. The majority of college football fans (and the media) believe that lie. You think anyone is going to give OU's excuses a thorough going over after they have already decided to leave?

We all know the ultimate reason will be the same as it was when the other teams left, money and exposure. OU will make more money in the Big 10 or SEC and will get their share of a conference network. The Big 12 can do nothing to overcome either.  If OU stays, it will likely be because of their dominant competitive position in the Big 12 or because of politics over leaving OSU in the cold. I guess there is still the slight possibility that a conference network or a media deal, like the ideas noted above with the Pac, which could sweeten the pot enough to keep them in the fold. Unfortunately, I still lean towards them wanting to leave.

8 conference games are worth less than 9. It is just a fact. Unless that 9th game is replaced with a set of guaranteed winners, those OOC games aren't worth as much. I imagine the powerbrokers at OU don't give a damn about SOS and how the rest of the conference gets an almost assured loss against OU because of the round robin. OU would love to have only 8 conference games so they can add a better home game every other year, but they lose more money on the TV contract by losing the guaranteed conference games. If 8 games were a realistic option it would have already happened, just like expansion would have already happened if it were financially realistic. The conference loses money either way and therefore no one in the Big 12 is interested in change.

[sushihorn 3,215]

5 minutes ago, HighlandMidge said:

Seriously, take a look at 3/4's of your conference.  BYU absolutely moves the needle and would bring more value than any except for Texas and OU and maybe Kansas due to basketball.     

BYU isn't in TCU or Oklahoma State's league for football.  Iowa State is getting there.  In what sense would BYU be anything but below average in the Big XII?

[ButtFumble 5,065]

3 minutes ago, Valmy77 said:

Man that is a depressing read. Get ready for more thrilling games with Incarnate Word.

Well argued though.

once again Texas does not need to schedule Incarnate Word nor does any other program in the Big 12 that gives a shit

but even if the programs that do not give a shit schedule Incarnate word it is still better for Texas and the other members of the Big 12 as long as those teams that do not give a shit beat Incarnate Word

Because beating Incarnate Word is still better for the strength of schedule of Baylor when Baylor plays Texas Vs Baylor taking a loss to ISU, KSU, WVU or OkState

and not only is it better for Texas it is better for every other conference member that plays Baylor that year and then all of those teams with a better strength of schedule playing each other once again slightly improves the strength of schedule for all those teams

Alabama and Georgia do not give a shit who Vandy and Kentucky and MSU play in the OOC they just give a shit if those teams beat the piles of shit they play in the OOC

Alabama and Georgia are free to schedule for themselves how they see fit and the fact is they still schedule shit....why?.....because they can get away with it when MSU and Kentucky are highly overrated because they are 6-1 with 4 wins coming against garbage

Alabama does not give a shit about the fact that if MSU or Kentucky managed to beat them and get in the SEC SEC SEC CCG CCG CCG and win it with 1 loss they would probably be left out of the playoffs because of their shitty overall schedule....and the fact is because of how the SEC SEC SEC schedules they still might not be left out because they would still have beaten a bunch of teams that were 8-4 with 4 wins coming against total shit...but as aggy says 8-4 IN THE SEC SEC SEC!!!!!

Texas can CHOOSE to not schedule like that Texas can replace the game against Kansas with a game against some Big 10 pile of shit or some ACC pile of shit or even against a better team....but what is important is that it does not matter how other conference members schedule it matters if they win those games even if they are shitty wins because a shitty OOC win is better than a shitty conference win or a shitty conference loss or even a "good" conference loss

and it builds year in and year out who gives a fuck if Baylor or Kansas make their way in the world going 7-5 with 4 shitty wins and a bowl game.....the more Big 12 teams with winning records and bowl games the better it is for Texas and OU period

people failing to understand this is the ridiculousness of talking about realignment......complaining about how shitty all the lower level Big 12 teams are then complaining if you do not play those teams as often and are free to schedule BETTER if you wish and then complaining if those teams get a better overall record because they beat shitty teams out of conference.....instead of getting beat in a conference game

the most simple math on earth says the more conference games you play the shittier your conference will be overall because every win in a conference game comes with a GUARANTEED LOSS for the conference as well

the concept is to minimize the GUARANTEED LOSSES while maximizing the potential for a win WITHOUT A GUARANTEED LOSS and people fail to realize that Baylor and Kansas having shitty OOC wins is still better for Texas and OU and others all the more so when Texas and OU and others now play conference mates less often and can schedule BETTER if they desire to do so

 

No. 4 Oklahoma y$^		8	–	1					12	–	2
No. 9 Texas y		7	–	2					10	–	4
Iowa State		6	–	3					8	–	5
No. 20 West Virginia		6	–	3					8	–	4
TCU		4	–	5					7	–	6
Baylor		4	–	5					7	–	6
Kansas State		3	–	6					5	–	7
Texas Tech		3	–	6					5	–	7
Oklahoma State		3	–	6					7	–	6
Kansas		1	–	8					3	–	9

 

look at the record above....replace 20 conference games with 20 OOC games even if you only won 60% of those OOC games that is still 2 more wins somewhere in the conference which could have been Texas Tech and KSU both making a bowl game or OkState having a better looking record and one other team making a bowl game

and that better finish at the end of the season pays off for the next season

 

the SEC SEC SEC was 50-6 in their OOC games last year

that is 89.3%

if they played 9 conference games instead of 8 they would have 42 OOC games and if they still won 89.3% of those it would be 37.5 wins we will round that to 38 because SEC SEC SEC

but more importantly because the conference goes .500 in conference games we have 14 games that are 7-7 now instead of 14 X .893 or 12.5 wins

so 38 wins plus 7 wins = 45 wins Vs the 50 wins with fewer conference games and shitty OOC scheduling

now toss 5 more losses into the conference below

No. 7т Georgia x		7	–	1					11	–	3
No. 12 Kentucky		5	–	3					10	–	3
No. 7т Florida		5	–	3					10	–	3
South Carolina		4	–	4					7	–	6
Missouri		4	–	4					8	–	5
Vanderbilt		3	–	5					6	–	7
Tennessee		2	–	6					5	–	7
West Division
No. 2 Alabama x$^		8	–	0					14	–	1
No. 16 Texas A&M		5	–	3					9	–	4
No. 6 LSU		5	–	3					10	–	3
Mississippi State		4	–	4					8	–	5
Auburn		3	–	5					8	–	5
Ole Miss		1	–	7					5	–	7
Arkansas		0	–	8					2	–	10

and suddenly you probably have fewer bowl teams and more teams with 7 wins instead of 8 and the conference looks a lot more shitty

get the Big 12 playing 20 fewer conference games and winning 70%+ and the conference looks a hell of a lot better

and again Texas and OU and others are free to schedule games that are as good or better than the conference games they give up 9you know in the conference so many of those fans complain about being shitty) and who gives a fuck how the others schedule as long as they win better than .500 it is a net benefit to the conference as a whole and especially the top teams in the conference

[Tex Long 4,264]

NSIAP

If nothing will do except expanding XII and going to N/S divisions with real CCG, why not BYU and AFA? Good academics, wide-spread fans... what don't you like about them? Other than the Ghost of Taysom?

[Valmy77 12,519]

BYU has been the obvious candidate for expansion for years now but for whatever reason the deal has never been made. I presume the numbers just don't work to make them attractive..

Adding a service academy is out of the question. I mean I admire them and all but they don't belong in a P5 conference.

[rickyspub 801]

5 minutes ago, Tex Long said:

NSIAP

If nothing will do except expanding XII and going to N/S divisions with real CCG, why not BYU and AFA? Good academics, wide-spread fans... what don't you like about them? Other than the Ghost of Taysom?

We have already been through this exercise. More money will do over expansion, so it's a moot point. (Though I believe AFA has already said they have no interest in being in a P5 conference.) Until there are 2 teams that pay for themselves across the board on the media side, the Big 12 is unlikely to expand.

[ButtFumble 5,065]

31 minutes ago, rickyspub said:

OU will make whatever claims fit the moment if they decide to leave. Everyone who left the Big 12 used the LHN as a rearguard excuse, even though its existence post-dated everyone's decision to leave. The majority of college football fans (and the media) believe that lie. You think anyone is going to give OU's excuses a thorough going over after they have already decided to leave?

We all know the ultimate reason will be the same as it was when the other teams left, money and exposure. OU will make more money in the Big 10 or SEC and will get their share of a conference network. The Big 12 can do nothing to overcome either.  If OU stays, it will likely be because of their dominant competitive position in the Big 12 or because of politics over leaving OSU in the cold. I guess there is still the slight possibility that a conference network or a media deal, like the ideas noted above with the Pac, which could sweeten the pot enough to keep them in the fold. Unfortunately, I still lean towards them wanting to leave.

8 conference games are worth less than 9. It is just a fact. Unless that 9th game is replaced with a set of guaranteed winners, those OOC games aren't worth as much. I imagine the powerbrokers at OU don't give a damn about SOS and how the rest of the conference gets an almost assured loss against OU because of the round robin. OU would love to have only 8 conference games so they can add a better home game every other year, but they lose more money on the TV contract by losing the guaranteed conference games. If 8 games were a realistic option it would have already happened, just like expansion would have already happened if it were financially realistic. The conference loses money either way and therefore no one in the Big 12 is interested in change.

 

you do not lose games for the media partners with more OOC games that is not how it works

as long as everyone in the conference signs home and home games (in other words no one plays a buy in game or a one and done for cash) the media partners get the same content

if Texas and Kansas play conference games two years in a row that is 2 games over two years for the media partners (one game each year)

if Texas plays an OOC home game in 2020 and Kansas plays an OOC away game in 2020 that is one game for the media partners (the Texas home game).....in 2021 Texas plays an OOC away game and Kansas plays an OOC home game......that Kansas OOC home game is still one game for the media partners for a total of two games over two years (one game each year)

so unless Kansas or Baylor decided to take cash to go play Alabama or Florida with no return game the media partners are just fine on the number of games

if Kansas decided to buy in a shitty OOC game each year then the media partners get a net benefit of one additional game

next comes the argument that "well Kansas will play really shitty teams".....yes and hopefully they will win both of them.....and from the stand point of the media partners once Kansas plays Big 12 conference games later in the season what is worth more......Kansas with a 3-2 or a 4-1 record against shitty OOC games playing Texas Tech that is 3-2 or 4-1 against shitty OOC games or Kansas that is 1-2 against Texas Tech that is 2-1 against shitty OOC games 

then there is the argument that "the Big 12 is just in too small of a geographic area" and "needs a bigger foot print"....well you know how you expand your geographic area and your footprint and your number of interested viewers (without adding G5 shit)

well it is pretty simple you play fewer games against the same teams all in the same small geographic area and instead you play teams from other areas in the OOC then you get fans of those teams AND casual fans of that conference and that area watching your games instead of a Big 12 errwon play errbodie circle jerk that no oen gives a fuck about especially fans in the Big 12 at schools like Texas and OU

Texas Tech Vs Memphis......Baylor Vs USF......those games get the dicks of the AAC fans hard especially because those pole smokers think they belong in the Big 12 so fans of that entire conference group tune in and beat their puds for their conference mate to possibly beat a Big 12 team and prove they belong in the Big 12

Texas Tech Vs Baylor does not draw those fans period

and again of Texas Tech and Baylor can win a higher % of OOC games over .500 as their overall record improves they games they play in the Big 12 mean more even to causal fans because Baylor that is 7-5 Vs OkState that is 7-2 gets more national viewers than Baylor that is 5-5 and OkState that is 6-2

you get more teams in Bowl games, you recruit better for your shittier teams based on that, you have teams ranked higher to start the next year and it builds on itself

[Valmy77 12,519]

If we did something stupid like split the Big 12 into two divisions of five with four division games and one permanent "rival" and two of the remaining four for seven conference games combined with 5 shitty OOC games, then yeah we would be able to have all ten Big 12 schools achieve winning records and all ten go to bowl games every once in a while. It would be bullshit but we could do it. ButtFumble's logic is sound even though it makes me want to puke.

[rickyspub 801]

1 minute ago, ButtFumble said:

 

you do not lose games for the media partners with more OOC games that is not how it works

as long as everyone in the conference signs home and home games (in other words no one plays a buy in game or a one and done for cash) the media partners get the same content

if Texas and Kansas play conference games two years in a row that is 2 games over two years for the media partners (one game each year)

if Texas plays an OOC home game in 2020 and Kansas plays an OOC away game in 2020 that is one game for the media partners (the Texas home game).....in 2021 Texas plays an OOC away game and Kansas plays an OOC home game......that Kansas OOC home game is still one game for the media partners for a total of two games over two years (one game each year)

so unless Kansas or Baylor decided to take cash to go play Alabama or Florida with no return game the media partners are just fine on the number of games

if Kansas decided to buy in a shitty OOC game each year then the media partners get a net benefit of one additional game

next comes the argument that "well Kansas will play really shitty teams".....yes and hopefully they will win both of them.....and from the stand point of the media partners once Kansas plays Big 12 conference games later in the season what is worth more......Kansas with a 3-2 or a 4-1 record against shitty OOC games playing Texas Tech that is 3-2 or 4-1 against shitty OOC games or Kansas that is 1-2 against Texas Tech that is 2-1 against shitty OOC games 

then there is the argument that "the Big 12 is just in too small of a geographic area" and "needs a bigger foot print"....well you know how you expand your geographic area and your footprint and your number of interested viewers (without adding G5 shit)

well it is pretty simple you play fewer games against the same teams all in the same small geographic area and instead you play teams from other areas in the OOC then you get fans of those teams AND casual fans of that conference and that area watching your games instead of a Big 12 errwon play errbodie circle jerk that no oen gives a fuck about especially fans in the Big 12 at schools like Texas and OU

Texas Tech Vs Memphis......Baylor Vs USF......those games get the dicks of the AAC fans hard especially because those pole smokers think they belong in the Big 12 so fans of that entire conference group tune in and beat their puds for their conference mate to possibly beat a Big 12 team and prove they belong in the Big 12

Texas Tech Vs Baylor does not draw those fans period

and again of Texas Tech and Baylor can win a higher % of OOC games over .500 as their overall record improves they games they play in the Big 12 mean more even to causal fans because Baylor that is 7-5 Vs OkState that is 7-2 gets more national viewers than Baylor that is 5-5 and OkState that is 6-2

you get more teams in Bowl games, you recruit better for your shittier teams based on that, you have teams ranked higher to start the next year and it builds on itself

Conference games are just worth more. Go read the old realignment thread on the Shag. ESPN isn't paying a premium for some unknown commodity. OOC game contracts can be broken so there is less value in them. (A conference-level scheduling arrangement would add value because the games would be guaranteed and the pool of opponents would be established.) It is what it is, so until the conference moves to 8 games and makes more money relative to its current position among the other leagues, you are just spilling bits on the internet.

[ButtFumble 5,065]

Just now, Valmy77 said:

If we did something stupid like split the Big 12 into two divisions of five with four division games and one permanent "rival" and two of the remaining four for seven conference games combined with 5 shitty OOC games, then yeah we would be able to have all ten Big 12 schools achieve winning records and all ten go to bowl games every once in a while. It would be bullshit but we could do it. ButtFumble's logic is sound even though it makes me want to puke.

that is exactly the concept

Texas, Texas Tech, Baylor, ISU, WVU

OU, OkState, TCU, KSU, KU

with the fixed cross over game the teams above and below

that would be an extremely balanced conference top to bottom, it keeps all the major rivalry games and it leaves open great potential CCG games

the people with people thinking "it is bullshit" is that people cannot grasp that a conference with Texas, Alabama, USC, LSU, Florida, tOSU, Michigan, Auburn, Clemson, FSU playing 9 conference games is still going to have shitty teams because someone has to take those 45 guaranteed losses and as some of those teams start to go 7-5 or 5-7 and they get into the endless coach firings and rebuilds and the recruiting takes a shit well some of those teams will probably suck for a long time

and sure they have the money to try and aggy their way to winning by buying in every shit hot G5 coach or P5 coordinator there is, but eventually that shit takes a toll on the entire conference and fans tune out

if those 10 teams were playing 5 OOC games a year and all coming into conference 5-0 (or doing like the SEC SEC SEC and taking a late season extra shitty ooc game) no one would say it is bullshit at all they would say "well step up and fucking beat them"

and the other think that makes it "shitty" that people cannot get past is Texas playing USF that is 6-0 at the time before they "Charles it" and lose 6 in a row is still a much more popular game AT THAT TIME Vs Texas playing Kansas that is 2-4 at that time before they go 4-8 for the season.....and at the end of the year Texas still has that win over a 6-0 team no one remembers that win down the road as against a 6-6 team with a bowl loss......and a win over a 6-6 team that was 6-0 at the time is still better than a win over a team that was 2-6 and ended the year 4-8 and Texas gets some Florida exposure for recruiting instead of Kansas JuCo exposure for recruiting 

Texas over an 8 win Memphis team at the end the year is still a better win than Texas over a 6-7 Baylor team at the end the year

and Texas schedules 11 P5 games some years and 10 pretty much every year......but of course 4 of those are Big 12 teams that are shitty.....if those 4 Big 12 teams were not quite as shitty because of OOC wins (even over shitty teams) and Texas was beating Oregon State and ASU in the OOC instead of other shitty Big 12 teams that is much better for Texas and the Big 12 and suddenly it does not look like such bullshit

the more conference games you play the more shitty teams you will have period AND the more those shitty teams rub off on you because they make up more and more of your schedule....the less conference games you play the more of a CHANCE you have for fewer shitty conference teams and no matter how shitty those teams are the less they rub off on you and the more you control your own ability to schedule for the best possible outcome period the end

nothing will change those facts no matter what teams you are talking about in a conference....and worse yet the longer things go one the more chance you end up with teams that never gain traction and continue to suck or equally as bad the more you move to a conference of 10-2 teams as your top teams and 2-10 teams as your bottom teams with a lot of 5-7 mixed in like the PAC 12 is heading to rapidly....and 10-2 as a top conference team with a lot of 2-10 shit is how your 10-2 team falls to irrelevant in the playoff era

[TrashMaster G 17,263]

[SwanderedTalent 5,761]

52 minutes ago, Valmy77 said:

BYU has been the obvious candidate for expansion for years now but for whatever reason the deal has never been made. I presume the numbers just don't work to make them attractive.

actually I talked to CDC about this recently and he said, "Their Internet posters are just too fucking annoying"

[ButtFumble 5,065]

24 minutes ago, rickyspub said:

Conference games are just worth more. Go read the old realignment thread on the Shag. ESPN isn't paying a premium for some unknown commodity. OOC game contracts can be broken so there is less value in them. (A conference-level scheduling arrangement would add value because the games would be guaranteed and the pool of opponents would be established.) It is what it is, so until the conference moves to 8 games and makes more money relative to its current position among the other leagues, you are just spilling bits on the internet.

money and ratings talk bullshit walks

right now no one on earth thinks the Big 12 is working with anything but bullshit and the stupid failed won truu campionz and errwon play errbodie and the mostest fairest way evAR to krown a campionz except wait we added and CCG because the very first year that other marketing tag line bullshit failed

it is pretty simple right now the media partners get 45 conference games or 45 P5 games guaranteed because you are saying they have no control over the OOC games (they could if they wanted to pay for that)....you have to remember that there are 90 WINS AND LOSSES, but each conference game is TWO TEAMS one taking a guaranteed conference win and on a guaranteed conference loss

so it is pretty simple the Big 12 guarantees the media partners 45 P5 games each season anything less than that cost the Big 12 money (4.5 on average per team per year).....the Big 12 can meet that however they want if one team wants to play 11 P5 games two years in a row and another wants to play 7 two years in a row well then the one playing 11 gets two extra shares and the one playing 7 gets two fewer shares....because remember not all of those P5 games will be home games for the Big 12 team so you have to work in pairs of years) 

as long as the Big 12 gets the media partners their 45 P5 home games a year the Big 12 gets the full contract and again if they deliver less they take a hit....and if individual teams deliver less than 9 PO5 games over two years they take a hit and if another conference member steps up and takes that slot they get the cash for doing so

then you can have some ratings compensation was well starting with an average baseline over the last few seasons and getting a BONUS for delivering above that

again with the "conference games mean more" bullshit....what game means more Texas and OU during the SWC Big 8 years or Texas Vs Rice during the SWC years

what games mean more now GT Vs UGA or GT Vs Wake Forest and UGA Vs Vandy

FSU Vs Florida or FSU Vs NCState and Florida Vs Kentucky

Clemson Vs SC or Clemson Vs Syracuse and SC Vs Missouri

OU Vs NU or OU Vs Texas Tech or Baylor

and to be clear of course not every OOC game that is subbed in for a conference game will be a heavy hitter like those above, but what fucking difference is Minnesota Vs ISU or Minnesota Vs TCU

actually there is a difference....people in the mid west might actually tune in to see a game that has a Big 12 school in it and Big 10 fans might tune in as well

there is no reason the Big 12 cannot guarantee 90 P5 games (45 a year) over 2 years and base compensation on that factor and there is no reason the Big 12 cannot put money on the line for ratings increases by having better teams in conference games playing each other (even based on some shitty OOC wins) and by having more teams drawing viewers from outside the conference footprint instead of having a conference circle jerk that no one respects and that people openly mock and that has irrefutably FAILED from the very first season it was tried and that still gets mocked with a bullshit CCG that is a guaranteed repeat and that Fox decided to not even fucking pay for

[Magus Ossis 2,737]

1. A conference should try to have more wins, ceteris paribus, to get into more bowls and look better on paper. Paper isn't real, except that perception often is, or at least influences, reality. 2. A conference sacrifices, to an extent, its marketable TV inventory by playing too many OOC patsies, especially at the expense of conference games. Here is where careful planning comes in. The goal isn't to have 50 marquee games; it is to have enough reliably to fill the time slots allocated with attractive offerings. Moving some of the OOC games later into the season helps smooth out the distribution, in addition to the obvious advantage of a quasi-bye in November. 3. CCG is money and occasionally credibility; this is set off by the risk of knocking a contender out of the playoffs and of repeat games. One eliminates the risk of back-to-back rematches by not putting inter-division games in November. 4. The 5 + 5 alignment allows the OU game (as well as 4 other, by comparison, trivial) rivalries to remain interrupted, allows all teams to be played fairly frequently (see SEC, e.g., aggy-UGA for a contrast) while allowing more OOC games. 5. Just because KSU will schedule another trash game to pump up its record does not mean that we have to do so-- Texas can use the flexibility of one more OOC slot to combine interesting matchups with playing enough and interesting-enough home games. 6. If we really wanted to put our fingers close to the third rail in addressing "trash games" and TV inventory, we could include some asymmetric distribution of part of the next TV contract based on a formula that includes OOC viewership. 7. The clear path to the playoffs in the B12 should not be overlooked. The current conference superstructure more or less guarantees that Texas and OU, unless one is down, are one of the four super-regionals unto themselves.

[SwanderedTalent 5,761]

Just now, Magus Ossis said:

1. A conference should try to have more wins, ceteris paribus

talk like this is why A&M isn't in the Big 12 anymore

[ButtFumble 5,065]

 

talk like this is why A&M isn't in the Big 12 anymore

I understand the concept of mocking aggy for being de facto national champions because Bama is (well could have been)

but or course there is the easily as worthy mockery of all the good (bull) losses to Clemson and Bama that they hype up

the opposite of what I propose (and that Magus summed up nicely) is to be in a conference that is large enough that there is room for there to be several teams with 9 or 9+ wins even if there is a team or two that is 12-0 or 11-1 going into the CCG then who cares about the bottom feeders

the issue the Big 12 has is none of the available G5 shit that could be added to the Big 12 brings close to the amount of money to even break even on adding those programs much less making any additional money for current members and that is even if you have a steep buy in for the entire length of the current TV contract.....much less the Big 12 media partners made it clear that having those teams at the time of a new contract did not really mean shit to them in terms of additional money for current members or a larger new contract

then of course to top it off the SEC SEC SEC and ACC still only play 8 conference games with 14 teams and only the Big 10 with 14 teams saw fit to go to 9 conference games and that is because the Big 10 is filled with programs that sill manage to get paid even if they accept going 4-8 most years in football and the top teams in the Big 10 do not mind playing all that garbage in conference while Texas and OU would never cotton to that unless the money to do so was huge and the money to do that by adding currently available teams is smaller than the current money as was made clear in the idiot expansion discussion by boren

not to mention with 14 teams playing 9 much less 8 conference games there is still a relatively acceptable chance of a repeat CCG Vs the totally idiotic guaranteed repeat og 9 conference games in a 10 team conference

and even after a single season the Big 10 is already rethinking 9 conference games and the PAC 12 has had multiple coaches question the viability of it especially long term

so the reality is 2 out of 5 conferences know 9 conference games is stupid, two are questioning it and one puts out a totally and completely highly mocked marketing tag line around it that is all the more stupid with an added CCG that guarantees a repeat

and like it or not Texas and OU right now are tied to the other 8 members for another 8 years at least and no PAC 12 or other P5 teams are coming to the rescue to be added to the Big 12 and even the mighty UH does not bring shit in terms of additional TV dollars even to cover their own parasite asses much less extra for the current members

mocking aggy for being "great" by association with the SEC SEC SEC teams is only slightly worse than a program like Texas not being willing to say "who gives a shit how Baylor schedules" we can schedule to meet our needs or do even better than the current set up with more scheduling freedom that fewer conference games provides

they are different sides of the same coin...."we are great because "Bama" or "oh no we look like shit because Baylor schedules like shit"

those are the same thing

Edited February 27, 2019 by ButtFumble

[SwanderedTalent 5,761]

2 minutes ago, ButtFumble said:

I understand the concept of mocking aggy for being de facto national champions because Bama is (well could have been)

but or course there is the easily as worthy mockery of all the good (bull) losses to Clemson and Bama that they hype up

actually what I meant was, Magnus was using fancy Latin words and A&M doesn't have any love for that kind of fag talk

[Hagbard Celine 10,498]

2 hours ago, HighlandMidge said:

Seriously, take a look at 3/4's of your conference.  BYU absolutely moves the needle and would bring more value than any except for Texas and OU and maybe Kansas due to basketball.

Laying on of hands doesn't change spacetime.

[Hagbard Celine 10,498]

2 hours ago, sushihorn said:

BYU isn't in TCU or Oklahoma State's league for football.  Iowa State is getting there.  In what sense would BYU be anything but below average in the Big XII?

in the delusional spacetime of the brethren, it is whatever they say it is because they are chosen.  like aggy.