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Brothahorn

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For the first time since its inception 40+ years ago, we finally have a need for real guidance and input from the Federal Department of Education.  It can finally serve a purpose.  I've been a huge skeptic of it for decades.  It has an "education disruptor" at the Secretary post and a Republican as President looking to shake things up a bit.

What are they up to today?  Well, you have to scroll to the second page before their website even mentions Coronavirus.  And even there, it's just links to the CDC.  No unified vision for how to effectively open up schools, deploy effective remote learning resources and strategies, no plan to empower states and local districts to do any of the above.  Nope.  Nada.  Jackshit. 

 

TANGENT--------

150+ years ago, as the Industrial Revolution had taken hold...we needed to figure out something to during the day with our children, or at least all the ones that didn't work on farms (which was an ever-increasing number).  So they decided the best thing for all would be to assign them a grade and a school/teacher based solely on their date of birth and their zip code.  The children were arranged in 5 rows of 5 and they were talked at with little regard for their strengths, weaknesses, interests, or needs.  Typically, the younger children would receive instruction from just one teacher, the adolescent children would sometimes move about to receive more specific instruction in a particular subject from someone more versed in that field.  Finally, as teenagers, after it had long been decided what they were good at and what they were bad at, they were able to have some input as what courses to study.  I can't fault them for instituting such an archaic and heavily-flawed model, they were inventing the public school model of their day and trying to mold it to the needs of myriad parts of a large nation.  

However, read that paragraph again and tell me, other than tablets and dry erase markers instead of chalk, what exactly has changed since then?  We do it the exact same fucking way today, and it's insane to me.  

 

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13 minutes ago, slorch said:

LOLz.  Again, I'm not slamming teachers.  A good portion of my wife's family works as educators/ administrators.  You can go through my posting history if you're really bored, and you will see a very, very supportive stance towards teachers.

Bottom line, their work schedule ain't shit compared to many other professional  folks.

Its still a dumb take, maybe even worse since you have exposure to some of the problems.  A teacher with 20 years is still making substantially less than their private sector peers with similar education.  Many districts don't even reward professional growth.  Earning a masters or doctorate isn't a benefit for teachers.  

Lets square up teaching with the R's pet boys in blue.  Let them earn overtime so they get compensated for their 12+ hour days to offset their "shit" work schedule.  Let their retirement be based on their highest earning years with that overtime included.  Maybe roll that into the whole defund police stuff.  

 

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7 minutes ago, TXSG8R said:

Its still a dumb take,

 

No it is not.  It is reality.

When someone is considering the teaching profession, is work schedule a pro or con?  For most people it's about a 2000% positive quality of the job.

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That's like saying nurses shouldn't be paid more because the majority of bedside nurses only work three twelve-hour shifts a week. Get the fuck out of here with that. 

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Posted (edited)
29 minutes ago, Lobo said:

For the first time since its inception 40+ years ago, we finally have a need for real guidance and input from the Federal Department of Education.  It can finally serve a purpose.  I've been a huge skeptic of it for decades.  It has an "education disruptor" at the Secretary post and a Republican as President looking to shake things up a bit.

What are they up to today?  Well, you have to scroll to the second page before their website even mentions Coronavirus.  And even there, it's just links to the CDC.  No unified vision for how to effectively open up schools, deploy effective remote learning resources and strategies, no plan to empower states and local districts to do any of the above.  Nope.  Nada.  Jackshit. 

 

TANGENT--------

150+ years ago, as the Industrial Revolution had taken hold...we needed to figure out something to during the day with our children, or at least all the ones that didn't work on farms (which was an ever-increasing number).  So they decided the best thing for all would be to assign them a grade and a school/teacher based solely on their date of birth and their zip code.  The children were arranged in 5 rows of 5 and they were talked at with little regard for their strengths, weaknesses, interests, or needs.  Typically, the younger children would receive instruction from just one teacher, the adolescent children would sometimes move about to receive more specific instruction in a particular subject from someone more versed in that field.  Finally, as teenagers, after it had long been decided what they were good at and what they were bad at, they were able to have some input as what courses to study.  I can't fault them for instituting such an archaic and heavily-flawed model, they were inventing the public school model of their day and trying to mold it to the needs of myriad parts of a large nation.  

However, read that paragraph again and tell me, other than tablets and dry erase markers instead of chalk, what exactly has changed since then?  We do it the exact same fucking way today, and it's insane to me.  

 

This is not entirely correct.  Compulsory public education was always a priority in the New England states, predating the industrial revolution.  It's by product of the Calvinist, educated, middle class, community oriented ethos the Puritan's brought to this nation.  Compulsory public education has never been a priority in other parts of the country during the nation's founding and immediate aftermath, and the deep southern states were down right hostile to the idea.  The idea of educating the poors would have been seen as appalling in their neo-fuedal system.  Only the rich and powerful were "worthy" of education, as they were the natural leaders of the community.

This battle between robust public education vs. a laissez fare private system dates back practically to the founding of our country.  The Slave Lords of the South and Tidewater Gentry would have been entirely comfortable with the idea of the government cutting them a personal check to fund the education for their future heirs while largely neglecting the education of the populace.  We are actually refighting battles from 200 years ago.

Edited by Bateshorn

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, TXSG8R said:

Saying the words school choice is easy, but it causes as many problems as it will solve.  To say its down to protection of teachers pay or submission to their unions is fucking comical. 

This is what happens when they start with the conclusion (liberals support it, so it's bad, because liberals are bad), then look for facts to prove their point, don't find any, and make some up.

 

Edited by TexArcher

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I was generalizing so as to make the second point, that the model we had for the masses is still largely executed the same way today.  Your date of birth, zipcode, and what teachers you're randomly assigned in K-8 dictates way more of your educational success than what's inside your head.  That was preferable in 1820, it was tolerable in 1920.  It's insanity in 2020.  
 

I understand the Calvinist model on much of what we do today in terms of education, private work ethic, etc.  I was trying to do the history of public education in America on one paragraph to simply illustrate the notion that we're executing on the ethos the same fundamental way within the school walls themselves.  

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6 minutes ago, slorch said:

No it is not.  It is reality.

When someone is considering the teaching profession, is work schedule a pro or con?  For most people it's about a 2000% positive quality of the job.

Even if that was some killer hook for teachers, it sure doesn't keep them there.  ~45% of new teachers quit within 5 years.  Maybe they figure out that those sweet summers off really aren't that fun when they don't have a lot of money to spend on them, and their dollar doesn't go as far because its peak season?  That's probably why almost 20% of teachers take second jobs, normally during that sweet summer off to make more scratch.  Or maybe they are just burned the fuck out for working on average almost 11 hours a day around those holidays.  

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11 minutes ago, TXSG8R said:

Even if that was some killer hook for teachers, it sure doesn't keep them there.  ~45% of new teachers quit within 5 years.  Maybe they figure out that those sweet summers off really aren't that fun when they don't have a lot of money to spend on them, and their dollar doesn't go as far because its peak season?  That's probably why almost 20% of teachers take second jobs, normally during that sweet summer off to make more scratch.  Or maybe they are just burned the fuck out for working on average almost 11 hours a day around those holidays.  

Parents and then bureaucracy (not being allowed to teach) are why  i could never be a teacher. Are you suggesting the grueling work schedule is why they burn out?

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28 minutes ago, Pancho said:

No it isn’t. That’s a made up lie.

Indeed. 
7am -5pm   work schedule on work days.

2 weeks off at Christmas

Spring Break off

Thanksgiving week off

Every major holiday off.
 

4-5 weeks off in the summer.

 

That’s just Fucking made up horseshit  

 

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On 7/8/2020 at 11:57 PM, Brothahorn said:

Since the conservatives(especially minorities) have so little voice on this forum. I decided to start my own thread. Because this is what America is about. Not all of us are bitches crying about the past and looking to be a victim. I will post views from minority conservatives, libertarians and independents. Joe Biden doesn't own us all.

 While I won't always agree with everything I post, I feel it is important to show that there are way more views than what is currently represented on this site. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

are you this lazy in real life?

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2 minutes ago, slorch said:

Indeed. 
7am -5pm   work schedule on work days.

2 weeks off at Christmas

Spring Break off

Thanksgiving week off

Every major holiday off.
 

4-5 weeks off in the summer.

 

That’s just Fucking made up horseshit  

 

I don’t know if it’s funny or sad that you are missing 3 of the biggest things involved in teaching from this “list” of time off that teachers get. 

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2 minutes ago, slorch said:

Parents and then bureaucracy (not being allowed to teach) are why  i could never be a teacher. Are you suggesting the grueling work schedule is why they burn out?

Many first year teachers have no idea what they are signing up for, especially those that go through teaching certs as opposed to an actual teaching degree.  Absolutely they quit because they signed up for the slorch idea of teaching and get smacked in the face with the reality of 11 hour days / 60+ hour work weeks for that $40k a year job.  Parents, districts, all of it adds to the stress, but I would love for you to point out the teachers that think their work schedule is somehow a job perk.  

To add on to my previous post, I forgot about all the mandatory stuff like (mandatory) professional development classes that teachers have to take.  Being able to do those during the school year is a unicorn, so guess when that happens?  Yup, during their "time off."  Taking down their classroom at the end of the year and standing it back up after summer cleaning?  During their "time off."  There is no analog for them in any other professional setting, so pointing to a calendar and saying "20% less" justifies their pay is fucking dumb.  

 

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, slorch said:

Indeed. 
7am -5pm   work schedule on work days.

2 weeks off at Christmas

Spring Break off

Thanksgiving week off

Every major holiday off.
 

4-5 weeks off in the summer.

 

That’s just Fucking made up horseshit  

 

justin timberlake what GIF

 

To add substance to the gif.  

https://www.noodle.com/articles/reasons-why-teachers-are-quitting-their-jobs

Quote

Reasons teachers are quitting
If you're serious about an education degree, make time to consider a few of the common reasons that move many teachers to quit. This way, you'll know what to expect once out in the field—and maybe have a few survival tips of your own prepared.

The work days are about 30 percent too long
A report from the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation found that teachers work an average of 10 hours and 40 minutes a day, which is three hours and 20 minutes more than the average required by U.S. public schools.

My schedule typically involves getting to work around 7 a.m., working straight through lunch, leaving around 4 p.m., and then—once I'm home—spending at least an hour planning lessons and an additional 2-3 hours grading assignments and prepping for the week ahead. Did I mention the time my husband puts in? He usually spends at least 2 hours a week helping me grade papers. I drag him into my classroom almost every Sunday to help make copies, clean and organize my classroom, and take care of any miscellaneous tasks that I didn’t get to throughout the previous week.

It’s rare that I get a full day off during the school year and in this regard, I know that I’m not alone. I can count on one hand the number of times I’ve been at school after-hours and I was the only teacher there. Most importantly, teachers are not provided compensation for work done before or after school, let alone on weekends.

 

Edited by TXSG8R

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9 hours ago, workswithseed said:

Yeah, I can see why people just do the homeschool deal. Even though most seem to be anti-vaxers. Now that I think about it, they get double fucked since they still have to pay taxes to school and teach their kid/s.

Is someone who is never having children getting fucked by having to pay taxes that go to education?  If my house never catches on fire did I spend my whole life getting fucked by paying taxes that went to support the fire department?  

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Here’s an example of what some posters were talking about on here with regards to media’a role in all this shitstorm. 

 

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4 minutes ago, GRHorn said:

Here’s an example of what some posters were talking about on here with regards to media’a role in all this shitstorm. 

 

Well, its that or maybe people are just looking for consistency.  

https://www.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/baghdad-airport-strike-live-intl-hnk/h_f9d911972e147dcd0e8b9b6fc5fc6d11

Quote

The US had intel that Qasem Soleimani was in multiple countries in the region planning specific attacks on US interests, including US personnel, a congressional source briefed by the Trump administration told CNN.

The source said the intelligence suggested that Iranian plans were maturing, and it became a strategic time to take out Soleimani.

A source with knowledge said attacks against US personnel were being plotted in the region and described the concern as being beyond the normal chatter about such plots.

Are we killing people for planning stuff or only once we have the paper trail to bring to, as your article stated, a court of law?  Speaking of which, when do we get to see that paper trail for Soleimani?

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26 minutes ago, GRHorn said:

Here’s an example of what some posters were talking about on here with regards to media’a role in all this shitstorm. 

 

What about any of the reporting on the story do you think the media got wrong? Seriously, find something specific published by a mainstream media outlet and tell us what they got wrong. Make an actual honest critique of the actual reporting. Don't just post a tweet by a dipshit misrepresenting the content of testimony.

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Just now, wildcat09 said:

Don't just post a tweet

Should be the CR sub-forum motto. 

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Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Should be the CR sub-forum motto. 

Historian twitter threads are great and I will fight anyone who disagrees.

Law professor twitter threads are great, but anyone who agrees is a lawyer and we should probably all be thrown into the ocean.

Edited by wildcat09

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6 minutes ago, FondrenRoad said:

Public funding is entirely non-libertarian.  As far as schooling goes, the only true libertarian possibility would be homeschooling your children by themselves, whether you do it yourself or hire a teacher.  Once you pool your money with even a single other parent in order to educate their kids together with your kids, you have joined a collective and have yielded some control over the curriculum to the rest of the collective.

Libertarianism has always been an impossibility.  The first thing libertarians would do on libertarian fantasy island is agree to a framework for dispute resolution and possibly hire security.  You know, form a government.  They mostly seem to want to enfranchise property and capital and disenfranchise the human being.  Much like you who want to direct "your" tax money.  If everyone directs "their own" tax money, then where does that leave those that have no, or very little, tax money to direct?  

What will happen with vouchers is that the voucher will defund the public school system by $X.  It will still cost $X + $Y to attend private school.  So after all the wealthy people have taken "their tax" money out of the system, added $Y to it (largely tax deductible), and paid for private school, the poor people will be left with worthless vouchers and an entirely defunded public school system which at that point has zero budget.  Some of them will get to lottery in to private schools though and you'll tout that as a victory so you can feel better about yourself much like happens for charter schools right now.

All of this.  And Libertarians never remember that we did this before.  It nearly cost us our war for independence and we were essentially nationally bankrupt when we decided to enshrine it as the Articles of Confederation.  It sucked donkey balls so we had to go another route.  

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As someone married to a retired teacher, it's ludicrous to say they work 50 hours/week. 

For an 8:00-3:15 school day:

The school doors weren't even unlocked at 7 AM.  They unlock at 7:15 and teachers are asked to be there at 7:30.  It's more of a suggestion to stay until 4. 

Daily it's 6 classroom hours and 2 "office" hours with part of that going towards lunch/recess duty on a rotation.

If it takes you 4 hours daily to grade and prep, something has gone wrong.  It's actually not difficult to do 100% of the grading and prep during the classroom time, which is why most teachers can boogie-out before reaching their 8-hour day at 4.

The one thing that is true is that we easily spent a couple thousand getting classroom decorations, tools, and supplies each year.  The schools supply basically nothing but room, desks, and a board.  Teachers outfit their own classrooms.

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My issue with conservatism and it’s application in today’s world. 

In theory, there are some good values in conservative beliefs. I would say the majority of my friends, family, and coworkers fall into the conservative crowd. I believe my issue is that in my opinion they tend to focus on one point while ignoring the rest of the issue.

An example would be the police reform issue. They bring up the talking point that black people kill more black people as evidenced by the Chicago killings. People riot when one bad apple kills a “criminal” but no one cares when 30 people are killed in one weekend. My issue with this type of thinking or argument is that it’s disingenuous to the rest of the issue. Yes, there are too many black people getting killed by black people in Chicago and other communities. It’s disingenuous because it attempts to diminish or ignore the hundreds of other data points involved in the discussion, such as black people are 2.5 more likely to be killed by police, broken window policing affects more minorities, and the bail system unfairly burdens minorities. All of that ties into the conversation, but conservatives tend to try and cut the argument down to good and bad. “Killing is bad, therefore black people kill each other, therefore they are the problem, not the police. I’ve never had cops show up to my house because I’ve never committed a crime. Therefore they are committing crimes and are the problem.” It’s a simplistic view of the world that ignores reality. 
 

The same can be said for the Coronavirus issue. People say they can’t believe anything Faucci says because he lied about masks. So everything he says is bullshit. Yes, he admitted to downplaying the importance of masks so the medical community would have them. This doesn’t mean everything else he says is bullshit. They do the same thing about Chloroquine or any other medical issue. Any inconsistencies are used to ignore the thousands of other data points. It’s disingenuous at best. Science is not perfect. The whole definition of science is to study through observation and experiment. New observations are made. New experiments are done. The data is constantly changing. Just because the science changes doesn’t mean you can ignore everything they say. They’re doing the best they can to study a novel disease. 

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3 minutes ago, slorch said:

I get a kick out of people who dismiss public schools as viable education because their little Judy or Johnny might hear some different points of view at school.  Are you that much of a pantywaist as a parent that you cannot overcome such dark and sinister influences in your kids?   Or maybe you could have them turn off the ipad for 10 minutes at the dinner table and talk about what they learned at school that day...

I never have been a believer in private schools.  Taking away funding from public schools is the opposite of the right thing to do.

and if you think that makes the difference in your precious little flower getting into an Ivy or whatever, again; you vastly underestimate your own influence as a parent...or maybe you just want to write a check instead of putting in the work.

100% real talk right here.  It's one of the biggest sources of division in our country that we won't recognize.  School as the building of community.  Once parents elect to take themselves out of the school, and out of the community, they are no longer building the community.  They are tearing it down.  Can public school be improved?  Absolutely.  But ripping it apart rips apart the foundations of the Republic.  

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

My issue with conservatism and it’s application in today’s world. 

In theory, there are some good values in conservative beliefs. I would say the majority of my friends, family, and coworkers fall into the conservative crowd. I believe my issue is that in my opinion they tend to focus on one point while ignoring the rest of the issue.

An example would be the police reform issue. They bring up the talking point that black people kill more black people as evidenced by the Chicago killings. People riot when one bad apple kills a “criminal” but no one cares when 30 people are killed in one weekend. My issue with this type of thinking or argument is that it’s disingenuous to the rest of the issue. Yes, there are too many black people getting killed by black people in Chicago and other communities. It’s disingenuous because it attempts to diminish or ignore the hundreds of other data points involved in the discussion, such as black people are 2.5 more likely to be killed by police, broken window policing affects more minorities, and the bail system unfairly burdens minorities. All of that ties into the conversation, but conservatives tend to try and cut the argument down to good and bad. “Killing is bad, therefore black people kill each other, therefore they are the problem, not the police. I’ve never had cops show up to my house because I’ve never committed a crime. Therefore they are committing crimes and are the problem.” It’s a simplistic view of the world that ignores reality. 
 

The same can be said for the Coronavirus issue. People say they can’t believe anything Faucci says because he lied about masks. So everything he says is bullshit. Yes, he admitted to downplaying the importance of masks so the medical community would have them. This doesn’t mean everything else he says is bullshit. They do the same thing about Chloroquine or any other medical issue. Any inconsistencies are used to ignore the thousands of other data points. It’s disingenuous at best. Science is not perfect. The whole definition of science is to study through observation and experiment. New observations are made. New experiments are done. The data is constantly changing. Just because the science changes doesn’t mean you can ignore everything they say. They’re doing the best they can to study a novel disease. 

I don’t think it’s conservative or  liberal Either way to demand accountability for cops and justice for our citizens.  Uphold the law first, then set expectations.

Edited by slorch

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9 minutes ago, slorch said:

I get a kick out of people who dismiss public schools as viable education because their little Judy or Johnny might hear some different points of view at school.  Are you that much of a pantywaist as a parent that you cannot overcome such dark and sinister influences in your kids?   Or maybe you could have them turn off the ipad for 10 minutes at the dinner table and talk about what they learned at school that day...

I never have been a believer in private schools.  Taking away funding from public schools is the opposite of the right thing to do.

and if you think that makes the difference in your precious little flower getting into an Ivy or whatever, again; you vastly underestimate your own influence as a parent...or maybe you just want to write a check instead of putting in the work.

Whoa. Who stole slorch's login?

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5 minutes ago, Chad Fuck said:

100% real talk right here.  It's one of the biggest sources of division in our country that we won't recognize.  School as the building of community.  Once parents elect to take themselves out of the school, and out of the community, they are no longer building the community.  They are tearing it down.  Can public school be improved?  Absolutely.  But ripping it apart rips apart the foundations of the Republic.  

Yep Not a fan of private schools. Public schools (whenever possible) should be stratified to accommodate faster paced kids, the majority who move at a typical pace, and the kids who have learning issues.  Won't happen nationwide, but one can dream.

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24 minutes ago, slorch said:

I get a kick out of people who dismiss public schools as viable education because their little Judy or Johnny might hear some different points of view at school.  Are you that much of a pantywaist as a parent that you cannot overcome such dark and sinister influences in your kids?   Or maybe you could have them turn off the ipad for 10 minutes at the dinner table and talk about what they learned at school that day...

I never have been a believer in private schools.  Taking away funding from public schools is the opposite of the right thing to do.

and if you think that makes the difference in your precious little flower getting into an Ivy or whatever, again; you vastly underestimate your own influence as a parent...or maybe you just want to write a check instead of putting in the work.

this is america GIF

Why do you think Trump is pushing to open schools so hard?  Karen and Ken cant fucking handle dealing with their kids all day, and they sure as fuck cant help engage with their education directly.  I would venture to guess that's a large reason why all the remote teaching is struggling so much.  

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I always thought the 90s libertarian vision was such romantic nonsense. Repeatedly, I read about the notion of a homesteader taking responsibility for his own holdings. I think they imagined a cozy place on the plains or in the mountains. I see maybe a vegetable garden and a couple goats and chickens and a warehouse full of guns to bravely protect the place from the criminal.

What you would have would be those who formed gangs eating your goats, pissing on your vegetables and stealing your chickens. You'd give up your guns from either your cold dead hands or warm trembling ones. Such is natural law. Such seems to be the reason for forming your own gang with cool rules.

Always, though, these libertarians believed themselves to be unsentimental pragmatists. I struggle to be one of those, and their fantasy is one of my favorites. 

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The fantasy of the American Loner Ethos has never proven to be more bullshit than right now during Covid.  We asked American's to stay home for 2-3 months so we could lower the infection levels to a point where we could contact trace and snuff out isolated hot spots.

The individualistic American, prepared for the apocalypse? Armed to the teeth, provisioned well, and only asking to be left alone to carry out their life?  Made it 5 fucking weeks before they insisted the body politic allow them to go to a bar.

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29 minutes ago, JBJ said:

As someone married to a retired teacher, it's ludicrous to say they work 50 hours/week. 

For an 8:00-3:15 school day:

The school doors weren't even unlocked at 7 AM.  They unlock at 7:15 and teachers are asked to be there at 7:30.  It's more of a suggestion to stay until 4. 

Daily it's 6 classroom hours and 2 "office" hours with part of that going towards lunch/recess duty on a rotation.

If it takes you 4 hours daily to grade and prep, something has gone wrong.  It's actually not difficult to do 100% of the grading and prep during the classroom time, which is why most teachers can boogie-out before reaching their 8-hour day at 4.

The one thing that is true is that we easily spent a couple thousand getting classroom decorations, tools, and supplies each year.  The schools supply basically nothing but room, desks, and a board.  Teachers outfit their own classrooms.

So the national averages are a lie, or your anecdotal situation is the outlier.  What did your spouse teach and where?  

AFAIK no one in this district gets 2 office hours at the elementary level.  They get 1, and that hour has to include parent meetings, which means its not a built in hour to grade papers or prep for the next day.  That hour is also used by the grade level to meet for curriculum AFAIK.  You also have rotational duties (lunch monitoring, bus drop, etc) that bite into those pre and post day hours.  Its been a while since my wife was teaching.  She has been in admin for a while now so my memory is a little rusty on the finer details, but I do know that as a teacher she would regularly put in 9-10 hours, and substantial chunks of weekend days. 

As an administrator, its worse.  She was putting in 12 hours a day as an AP.  She would start her day two hours early so she could work on her normal duties without interruption.  Once the day started, she was swamped with discipline, parents, staff issues, etc.  Admin also gets less time off.  The higher you go, the shorter your summers get.  Shes at the district level now and got a week off this summer.  As an AP I think she got 3 or 4 weeks off.  

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  1.  
56 minutes ago, FondrenRoad said:

Public funding is entirely non-libertarian.  As far as schooling goes, the only true libertarian possibility would be homeschooling your children by themselves, whether you do it yourself or hire a teacher.  Once you pool your money with even a single other parent in order to educate their kids together with your kids, you have joined a collective and have yielded some control over the curriculum to the rest of the collective.

Libertarianism has always been an impossibility.  The first thing libertarians would do on libertarian fantasy island is agree to a framework for dispute resolution and possibly hire security.  You know, form a government.  They mostly seem to want to enfranchise property and capital and disenfranchise the human being.  Much like you who want to direct "your" tax money.  If everyone directs "their own" tax money, then where does that leave those that have no, or very little, tax money to direct?  

What will happen with vouchers is that the voucher will defund the public school system by $X.  It will still cost $X + $Y to attend private school.  So after all the wealthy people have taken "their tax" money out of the system, added $Y to it (largely tax deductible), and paid for private school, the poor people will be left with worthless vouchers and an entirely defunded public school system which at that point has zero budget.  Some of them will get to lottery in to private schools though and you'll tout that as a victory so you can feel better about yourself much like happens for charter schools right now.

None of this is responsive to the specifics or context of my post. 

If you have your children in a public school in Texas (which I know that you do not), they are being forced by government mandates and leverage from both state and federal level into an epidemiological experiment for the Fall semester. The leverage they are using to shove this down our throats is provided by our own tax dollars. I do not like that, you seem just fine with it (probably because you don't have children who are being directly impacted). As I indicated in the post that you quoted, the solutions don't have to resemble libertarian fantasy island. But rhetorically I understand why you want to play on fantasy island.  

 

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3 minutes ago, Anastasis said:
  1.  

None of this is responsive to the specifics or context of my post. 

If you have your children in a public school in Texas (which I know that you do not), they are being forced by government mandates and leverage from both state and federal level into an epidemiological experiment for the Fall semester. The leverage they are using to shove this down our throats is provided by our own tax dollars. I do not like that, you seem just fine with it (probably because you don't have children who are being directly impacted). As I indicated in the post that you quoted, the solutions don't have to resemble libertarian fantasy island. But rhetorically I understand why you want to play on fantasy island.  

 

Look man, I'm sure parenting is an absolute bitch right now and if I had kids I'd be equally furious about this situation. I don't have kids and I'm still fucking pissed off about it, both for my friends who do have kids and for our country more generally. I can guarantee you that none of us are "fine with it." This discussion started because you responded to a comment about vouchers with:

Quote

BuT tHeRe iS nO pLacE fOr LibErTariAn iDeaS dUrinG a pAndEmic!  

and I questioned what about subsidizing schools was libertarian. You could've just said it really isn't and you just wanted to use a silly internet meme, but that you want some alternatives to the current shitshow Republicans are forcing upon us.  Nobody that's not a Trump supporter wants to force you to send your kids to a dangerous school. We want to crush the virus by employing methods other places have shown to work, which Republicans refuse to do for a variety of reasons. Maybe bitch about that instead of yelling at us for not caring?

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14 minutes ago, Bateshorn said:

The fantasy of the American Loner Ethos has never proven to be more bullshit than right now during Covid.  We asked American's to stay home for 2-3 months so we could lower the infection levels to a point where we could contact trace and snuff out isolated hot spots.

The individualistic American, prepared for the apocalypse? Armed to the teeth, provisioned well, and only asking to be left alone to carry out their life?  Made it 5 fucking weeks before they insisted the body politic allow them to go to a bar.

We haven’t heard from the loners though...

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7 minutes ago, Continental Op said:

Nobody is forcing you into anything.  Homeschool or pay to put your children in private school.  

Gov Hot Wheels, is that you?

If that is your response to the very many people in Texas school districts, many of which do not have those options, who object to making their children subjects in an epidemiological experiments, I guess that that is your prerogative.  

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Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, Anastasis said:
  1.  

None of this is responsive to the specifics or context of my post. 

If you have your children in a public school in Texas (which I know that you do not), they are being forced by government mandates and leverage from both state and federal level into an epidemiological experiment for the Fall semester. The leverage they are using to shove this down our throats is provided by our own tax dollars. I do not like that, you seem just fine with it (probably because you don't have children who are being directly impacted). As I indicated in the post that you quoted, the solutions don't have to resemble libertarian fantasy island. But rhetorically I understand why you want to play on fantasy island.  

 

Actually, you are the one who has been non-responsive.  Below is your initial post that kicked this off.  So you can see why the discussion has been about whether vouchers are libertarian and whether vouchers are a good idea at all, rather than about an "epidemiological experiment" during a single semester during a a pandemic.

If your goal was to discuss other options besides a forced reopening, then your post wasn't the way to do it.

12 hours ago, Anastasis said:

I think that there are lots of parents right now, across the political spectrum, who would like the option to use vouchers that could be used to fund education options for their children more in line with their personal beliefs regarding how their children should be educated in an environment less beholden to state and federal officials and the funding whip they deploy.

BuT tHeRe iS nO pLacE fOr LibErTariAn iDeaS dUrinG a pAndEmic!  

And my child is in public school, albeit not in Texas.  Right now, my state and local gov'ts fight each other as much as yours do over it, and my federal gov't is threatening to defund my public schools if they don't reopen just like it is threatening to defund yours.  There are only 2 real differences.  One, my location is past the first infection wave and yours is right in the middle of it.  Everything you do should occur roughly 2 to 3 months after NYC does it.  Two, my state will tell the feds to go fuck themselves and we will have remote or hybrid learning, if necessary, no matter what Trump wants us to do.

So far, remote learning sucks, however.  And while administrators and teachers have had plenty of time now to come up with a workable remote learning solution for the fall semester, I am almost certain that they haven't done so, and we'll have the same daily "homework list" structure that we had in spring.  And to be fair, I see the same complaints from parents who have kids in private school.  So many teachers have their own kids at home that it makes it difficult for them to be "teacher" and herd remote kids the whole day as well.

I'm also not sure why you're complaining.  You wanted things to "burn down."  Well, this is what that looks like.

Edited by FondrenRoad

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3 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

This discussion started because you responded to a comment about vouchers with:

Nobody is yelling at you drama boy. It's funny that you guys zero on the memey quip and omit the substance and context of that post and the follow-up.

I think that there are lots of parents right now, across the political spectrum, who would like the option to use vouchers that could be used to fund education options for their children more in line with their personal beliefs regarding how their children should be educated in an environment less beholden to state and federal officials and the funding whip they deploy.

 

There are lots of people across the political spectrum would probably like a little more control and school choice right now. 

 

 

 

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Just now, FondrenRoad said:

I'm also not sure why you're complaining.  You wanted things to "burn down."  Well, this is what that looks like.

nClIdC.gif

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4 minutes ago, FondrenRoad said:

You wanted things to "burn down."

This is among the most overplayed board memes.

Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump are selected as major party nominees for president.

A: Fuck this shit.  The two party system fucking sucks, we can do better. 

Donald Trump elected President.

A: Burn it down. Burn it all fucking down.

Meme ensues. 

 

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8 minutes ago, FondrenRoad said:

If your goal was to discuss other options besides a forced reopening, then your post wasn't the way to do it.

 

LOL.  I guess the alternative cap thing is the signal used to identify the most serious and substantive portion of the post.

 

 

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Y'all's dogmatic reflex to anything that seeks to decentralize power from government is pretty funny though. Status quo for life.  

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7 minutes ago, Anastasis said:
 

LOL.  I guess the alternative cap thing is the signal used to identify the most serious and substantive portion of the post.

 

 

The other portion of your post contained nothing about the coming fall semester epidemiological experiments either. 

 

11 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

This is among the most overplayed board memes.

Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump are selected as major party nominees for president.

A: Fuck this shit.  The two party system fucking sucks, we can do better. 

Donald Trump elected President.

A: Burn it down. Burn it all fucking down.

Meme ensues. 

 

But that isn't actually where "burn it down" fell in your personal timeline.  Instead, you wanted to burn it down before the 2016 election even occurred.  I do get that you thought you'd be relatively safe from the fire while others burned in it.  Fire doesn't work that way though.

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12 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Y'all's dogmatic reflex to anything that seeks to decentralize power from government is pretty funny though. Status quo for life.  

See, I actually agree with you on that somewhat.  The USA is too large to be a single entity with centralized power.

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