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2020 Baseball Cheaters vs the World Thread of Hate

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19 hours ago, youdunnf'dup said:

Biggest organization wide cheating scandal in the history of team sports lol. And that’s what makes it feel so different in the eyes of most fans. Steroids taken by individuals isn’t the same as a system of cheating that’s been instructed from as high up as the president of the team. 

This is just bullshit. Doug Glanville explains it better than I so read this...

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/28850651/i-played-clean-steroid-era-peds-hurt-players-more-sign-stealing-does

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I just don't get the absolute anger on this. Sign stealing using technology and relaying it to the batter in real time has been going on since at least 1940. Hank Greenberg, Bobby Thomson, etc. One of the most famous moments in the game resulted from stealing signs. Baseball essentially allowed the technology to exist to steal signs and utilized the honor system to monitor potential cheating. It's only shocking that more players haven't pulled a Fiers and tattled on their prior teams.

I understand the anger at the lack of player suspensions, but that was the deal. Also, Joe Kelly's still a little bitch for throwing high. 

 

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4 minutes ago, hornmpa96 said:

I just don't get the absolute anger on this. Sign stealing using technology and relaying it to the batter in real time has been going on since at least 1940. Hank Greenberg, Bobby Thomson, etc. One of the most famous moments in the game resulted from stealing signs. Baseball essentially allowed the technology to exist to steal signs and utilized the honor system to monitor potential cheating. It's only shocking that more players haven't pulled a Fiers and tattled on their prior teams.

I understand the anger at the lack of player suspensions, but that was the deal. Also, Joe Kelly's still a little bitch for throwing high. 

 

Joe Kelly is a bitch.  He probably doesn't even care about the sign stealing.  He just wants to start shit.  Any reason is good enough.  Bellinger is pissy and wants to blame someone else for his terrible playoff performances.  Dodger fans are pissy because they are Dodger fans and they're always that way.  Ranger fans are pissy because they didn't win in their window.

There really isn't any absolute anger that I've seen.  Even with Jomboy being a Yankee fan and posting nonsense, I've worn my 2017 WS champs shirt around Yankee fans plenty of times without even getting a dirty look.  A joke or two, on occasion, but never a dirty look or angry comment.

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The Red Sox won it in 2018 and are cheaters as well but MLB gave them a pass just like what's happening with the Yankees.

The main reason for the disproportionate outrage from other fanbases is a ginned up media theme laid an open secret of sign stealing throughout basebal at the feet of one franchise. That franchise was an easy mark for those media outlets and Rob Manfred because it wasn't one of the marquee organizations and could provide cover for the larger problem.



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Cheating is part of baseball culture. Always has been. These players are glad to have the Astros divert attention from themselves.

MLB wants no part of having the truth about baseball come out, which is why they slapped the Astros on the wrist and gave the players immunity.

The Dodger cry is funny, though. 

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Steroids is just cheating, and as was brought up back then players have been taking stimulants and other drugs to try and enhance their performance from the beginning. 
no punishment for retroactive goings-on, but mlb needs to establish in written rules what is allowed and what is not for sign stealing, and have punishments going forward for those caught.  The unwritten rules seem to vary club to club, player to player, era to era. 
If the league is going to take action against pitchers throwing at players, it needs to take action against players doing the things that make a pitcher choose to throw at them. Justice either resides with the players or with the league office. 

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10 minutes ago, Pato del Muerto said:

Steroids is just cheating, and as was brought up back then players have been taking stimulants and other drugs to try and enhance their performance from the beginning. 
no punishment for retroactive goings-on, but mlb needs to establish in written rules what is allowed and what is not for sign stealing, and have punishments going forward for those caught.  The unwritten rules seem to vary club to club, player to player, era to era. 
If the league is going to take action against pitchers throwing at players, it needs to take action against players doing the things that make a pitcher choose to throw at them. Justice either resides with the players or with the league office. 

The MLB is taking action against sign stealing.  Or trying to at least.  Justice doesn't and shouldn't ever reside with the pitcher.  Its pointless escalation that can ultimately lead to additional justice being handed out with a bat or by even worse means.  Throwing a 90 mph fastball at someone's head intentionally is an attack with a deadly weapon.  Bobby Fischer doesn't jam a rook in someone's eye because they tried to cheat him at chess.

Had Kelly's headshot on Correa connected, would you also be okay with Correa's family seeking street justice against Kelly?  Because that is the next step really.  

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1 hour ago, Gourmand said:

That franchise was an easy mark for those media outlets and Rob Manfred because it wasn't one of the marquee organizations and could provide cover for the larger problem.
 

And had a GM and owner that challenged the status quo and were just generally disliked.  That played a huge role too.

Edited by WBT

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5 minutes ago, WBT said:

And had a GM and owner that challenged the status quo and was just generally disliked.  That played a huge role too.

Correct, and now Jim Crane is out there running his PR dept into a frenzy again by saying unwise stuff that won't go over well. 

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10 minutes ago, FondrenRoad said:

The MLB is taking action against sign stealing.  Or trying to at least.  Justice doesn't and shouldn't ever reside with the pitcher.  Its pointless escalation that can ultimately lead to additional justice being handed out with a bat or by even worse means.  Throwing a 90 mph fastball at someone's head intentionally is an attack with a deadly weapon.  Bobby Fischer doesn't jam a rook in someone's eye because they tried to cheat him at chess.

Had Kelly's headshot on Correa connected, would you also be okay with Correa's family seeking street justice against Kelly?  Because that is the next step really.  

That’s why the unwritten rules need to become written rules, and then monitored and enforced by mlb. 
let’s announce formally that bat flips are ok or not, so it isn’t allowed to be the personal opinion of every player. 
let’s define legal and illegal sign stealing for the same reason. 
if a runner running across the mound on his way back to the dugout is still discouraged, let’s get that on record as ok or not. 
this isn’t just poor to middle class white American boys playing ball anymore, and all these different baseball cultures have different ideas. Time to codify more of them. 

Edited by Pato del Muerto

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10 minutes ago, Pato del Muerto said:

That’s why the unwritten rules need to become written rules, and then monitored and enforced by mlb. 
let’s announce formally that bat flips are ok or not, so it isn’t allowed to be the personal opinion of every player. 
let’s define legal and illegal sign stealing for the same reason. 
if a runner running across the mound on his way back to the dugout is still discouraged, let’s get that on record as ok or not. 
this isn’t just poor to middle class white American boys playing ball anymore, and all these different baseball cultures have different ideas. Time to codify more of them. 

The league has issued new rules on sign stealing.  We will see if they are broken and/or enforced.  To be fair, I don't think that Kelly gives a shit about sign stealing.  He just wanted an excuse.  He is the type of guy that walks into a bar and starts talking shit to a random stranger.

I think bat flips and other celebrations should be allowed.  Running across the mound shouldn't be allowed as its just stupid instigation for no reason.  I also support touchdown dances in the NFL, FWIW.  If you don't want to see a celebration, then stop the other team from scoring.  No matter what, intentionally throwing at a batter's head should never be acceptable.

Edited by FondrenRoad

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3 hours ago, Gourmand said:

 

Exactly right. MLB teams have been caught doing this 20+ times over the last 120 years, & the league's done nothing about it. It's not an Astros problem. It's leaguewide, & always has been.

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3 hours ago, hornmpa96 said:

I just don't get the absolute anger on this. Sign stealing using technology and relaying it to the batter in real time has been going on since at least 1940. Hank Greenberg, Bobby Thomson, etc. One of the most famous moments in the game resulted from stealing signs. Baseball essentially allowed the technology to exist to steal signs and utilized the honor system to monitor potential cheating. It's only shocking that more players haven't pulled a Fiers and tattled on their prior teams.

I understand the anger at the lack of player suspensions, but that was the deal. Also, Joe Kelly's still a little bitch for throwing high. 

Yep. The earliest instance I've read about was the 1899-1900 Phillies. They were doing essentially the same shit the Astros and others were doing and numerous teams have done for the last 120+ years.

Quote

A backup catcher named Morgan Murphy watched games at Baker Bowl in an “observatory” beyond the centerfield wall, where he stole signs with binoculars. Murphy rigged an underground wire from his perch to the third-base coaching box, where Bull Childs kept his foot above a junction box that would signal the pitch by buzzing once or twice. The Reds discovered and uprooted the system after they noticed Childs was not moving his right foot—not even when that portion of the coaching box included a puddle from rain. The Phillies “explained” the wire as something left behind by a traveling circus that had played at the ballpark. The club was not disciplined.

Many more instances at https://www.si.com/mlb/2020/01/23/sign-stealing-history-astros-red-sox ...

Edited by wood

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4 minutes ago, wood said:

Exactly right. MLB teams have been caught doing this 20+ times over the last 120 years, & the league's done nothing about it. It's not an Astros problem. It's leaguewide, & always has been.

 

To take it even further, really how much of a "problem" is it? I don't think it's anywhere close to PEDs and the solution is really simple...change your signs. And even if a hitter *thinks* he knows what's coming, how certain is he? There's still the matter of execution by the hitter, pitcher, and fielders behind him. Sign stealing is and will always be a part of baseball culture, just like spitting sunflower seeds, crotch grabbing, eye black, and bat flips. 

I believe that the spark that lit everything for MLB had less to do with the problematic nature of electronic surveillance than the personal beefs of an ex-Astro pitcher and an ex-Chronicle reporter on the Astros beat who were given cover by the actions of the organization in the wake of the Brandon Taubman incident. Had the Astros won game 7, this story never comes to light because there wouldn't have been oxygen to feed it. 

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51 minutes ago, FondrenRoad said:

The MLB is taking action against sign stealing.  Or trying to at least.  Justice doesn't and shouldn't ever reside with the pitcher.  Its pointless escalation that can ultimately lead to additional justice being handed out with a bat or by even worse means.  Throwing a 90 mph fastball at someone's head intentionally is an attack with a deadly weapon.  Bobby Fischer doesn't jam a rook in someone's eye because they tried to cheat him at chess.

Had Kelly's headshot on Correa connected, would you also be okay with Correa's family seeking street justice against Kelly?  Because that is the next step really.  

Exactly. Joe Kelly knows he doesn't have to go to the plate this year, and maybe not ever again, so what is anyone gonna do to him in return? He's the guy who throws a cheapshot in the club and then runs & hides behind the bouncer. Fuck him.

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16 minutes ago, Gourmand said:

 

To take it even further, really how much of a "problem" is it? I don't think it's anywhere close to PEDs and the solution is really simple...change your signs. And even if a hitter *thinks* he knows what's coming, how certain is he? There's still the matter of execution by the hitter, pitcher, and fielders behind him. Sign stealing is and will always be a part of baseball culture, just like spitting sunflower seeds, crotch grabbing, eye black, and bat flips. 

Yep. I'm fine with it ... but either crack down on it or don't. Be consistent. Don't make a big show of pinning it on one club, pretending you're fixing something that's been leaguewide for decades & is ingrained in the culture of the game, when you're really just sweeping it under the rug.

Let that bit about the players' vote sink in for a minute. Where's the outrage when it comes time for a vote on suspensions? They're covering their asses.

Edited by wood

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