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Ah shit. USMC Osprey down in SoCal...4 dead

Gil Bang

By Gil Bang
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BillyGoatHill

BillyGoatHill 4267

Posted
Posted
39 minutes ago, Ag with kids said:

https://www.baumhedlundlaw.com/aviation-accident/helicopter-crashes/black-hawk-helicopter-crashes/

According to this..there have been 11 Blackhawk crashes between Dec 2019 and Feb 2021.  So, 11 crashes in 15 months.

There have been 14 V-22 crashes (and 8 other incidents) since 1991.

Yes, there's more Blackhawks.  But, that's still quite a few crashes.

More Blackhawks, more flight hrs. 

Your safe aircraft should have been canceled before you started working on it. (first flight in '89 and finally combat ready in 2007)

1 hour ago, Ag with kids said:

From 1991-2006 there were 4 crashes (and 1 was pilot error).

30 deaths within those crashes. Maybe a problem within the aircraft if only one was pilot error.

8 more crashes with 16 more fatalities since then. 

Let's agree it's a difficult aircraft to fly (really land). But when it goes down, it's just not a pilot that's involved.

1 hour ago, Ag with kids said:

And I disagree the V-22 was "plagued with problems".  Yes.  There were several crashes prior to going operational in 2007 (IIRC).  But, ALL flight test programs have had crashes. 

That's great Coach speak.  

 

 

It's long (written 2006), but there are other articles, studies or opinions out there that have considered (proven?) that aircraft is a Widow-maker.

http://www.dmzhawaii.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/osprey-widow-maker-cdi.pdf

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Ag with kids

Ag with kids 576

Posted
Posted
Just now, BillyGoatHill said:

More Blackhawks, more flight hrs. 

From the link above - 11 Blackhawk crashes in 15 months = 0.73 crashes/month

22 incidents (they weren't all crashes but I'll include them just for you) in 31 years = 0.059 crashes/month

Quote

Your safe aircraft should have been canceled before you started working on it. (first flight in '89 and finally combat ready in 2007)

Tell me you know absolutely nothing about flight testing without telling me you know absolutely nothing about flight testing.

I worked on the Bell 525 (FBW commercial helicopter) from it's inception in 2010.  It's still in certification.  That's 12 years for a COMMERCIAL aircraft...18 years for the V-22 isn't abnormal.  It was also embedded with the Marines starting in 2000...it didn't see COMBAT until 2007.

Quote

30 deaths within those crashes. Maybe a problem within the aircraft if only one was pilot error.

I didn't say "only one" was pilot error.  In fact, I said MOST were pilot error.  I just specifically pointed out one - the VRS incident when the pilot was descending at over DOUBLE the allowable descent rate (if you fly outside the envelope don't be surprised if bad things happen to you - it's there for a reason). 

Quote

8 more crashes with 16 more fatalities since then. 

And...most of those were pilot error.  Of the first 5 after deployment - only ONE, due to dust ingestion into the engine - was NOT due to pilot error. 

Quote

Let's agree it's a difficult aircraft to fly (really land). But when it goes down, it's just not a pilot that's involved.

This is ABSOLUTELY not true.  I've got hundreds of hours of flying the V-22 simulator (which, since the software is in every trainer in the world, has to fly like the real thing).  It's WAY easier to fly AND land than a normal helicopter.  All the controls are decoupled, unlike a regular helicopter.

What is your experience flying it that gives you a different viewpoint?

I'm good friends with a LOT of V-22 pilots and they all love it.

Quote

It's long (written 2006), but there are other articles, studies or opinions out there that have considered (proven?) that aircraft is a Widow-maker.

http://www.dmzhawaii.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/osprey-widow-maker-cdi.pdf

Well...his article is nice doom and gloom, but definitely misleading...

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BillyGoatHill

BillyGoatHill 4267

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Ag with kids said:

I didn't say "only one" was pilot error.  In fact, I said MOST were pilot error.

My bad. I guess the Marine Corps just hires shitty pilots.

1 hour ago, Ag with kids said:

I've got hundreds of hours of flying the V-22 simulator

Maybe the Marine Corps should have you (since  you have  100's of hrs in the SIMULATOR) come train their pilots.

1 hour ago, Ag with kids said:

I'm good friends with a LOT of V-22 pilots and they all love it

Flown with many pilots in the Military and civilian sector (over 20 yrs) and the BEST, GREATEST airframe that they have flown is the one that they assigned to or flying right now.

16 hours ago, Ag with kids said:

No it's not. (arguing with you)

I simply stated what others had or would state about the Osprey.

You got your panties in a wad because you designed the toilet, flux capacitor, or something like that for the aircraft....

Not Today Reaction GIF by Chrisley Knows Best

 

 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Ag with kids said:

Wait till you find out I have 10 of them...😉

don't tell me you claim "Twelf Man" status in your house...

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Herbie Hancock

Herbie Hancock 7270

Posted
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That's great Coach speak.  
 
 
It's long (written 2006), but there are other articles, studies or opinions out there that have considered (proven?) that aircraft is a Widow-maker.
http://www.dmzhawaii.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/osprey-widow-maker-cdi.pdf


Maybe you need to review how many helicopters crash in this country every year. We average at least a dozen if not two just in the air medical field. Max payload for those depending on platform is typically 3+1. Makes sense an increased capacity would equal an increase in causalities
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Ag with kids

Ag with kids 576

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Quote

My bad. I guess the Marine Corps just hires shitty pilots.

I NEVER said that.  The V-22 has over 500K flight hrs.  Shit happens.  

Flight test has incidents.  ALL flight test does.  I lost 2 good friends in the flight testing of the 525.  RIP Backstreet and Frenchy...both Marine experimental test pilots.  That one was NOT pilot error.

Then when you get into combat or combat training, there's a huge sense of urgency and maybe they skate too close to the edge.  It sucks, but it happens.

Quote

Maybe the Marine Corps should have you (since  you have  100's of hrs in the SIMULATOR) come train their pilots.

Well, I'd be better than you to tell them how it flies since I actually know and I'm not talking out my ass that it's a "difficult aircraft to fly (really land)".  Because it is not...

Quote

Flown with many pilots in the Military and civilian sector (over 20 yrs) and the BEST, GREATEST airframe that they have flown is the one that they assigned to or flying right now.

Kudos.  And...are they wrong?  Remember, if they're lying, they're risking their life with every flight.

I will say that I won't get in a Robinson. Because I've had numerous experimental test pilots (you know, the guys who do first flight in rotorcraft) tell me they wouldn't get in one.  Nor would the 2 Apache pilots I work with.

Quote

I simply stated what others had or would state about the Osprey.

You got your panties in a wad because you designed the toilet, flux capacitor, or something like that for the aircraft....

Lots of those people (including the author of your article) haven't flown or flown in one.  The Marines fought HARD to keep it.  And then the Navy liked it so much that they wanted their own.  If it sucked so back and was so dangerous, why would they replace part of their fleet with the V-22?

BTW...I stated on a couple occasions that I worked on the V-22 simulator.  Specifically in the rapid prototyping lab.  We helped to develop numerous upgrades with pilot inputs for the aircraft over the years.  Then those got implemented into the aircraft.

But, if you want to call it the flux capacitor, cool.  I like that.

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BillyGoatHill

BillyGoatHill 4267

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41 minutes ago, Herbie Hancock said:

 


Maybe you need to review how many helicopters crash in this country every year. We average at least a dozen if not two just in the air medical field. Max payload for those depending on platform is typically 3+1. Makes sense an increased capacity would equal an increase in causalities

 

Maybe you should stick to the piano.

Lots of helicopter crashes per yr here in the states (2019 had 122 with 24 fatal. I'm not going to look up '20 or '21 for you)

Dozen or two in the air medical field per year? Wrong. 

Italics below is regarding 2006-2015....12 in 2010. Unfortunately HEMS still loses around 6-9 aircraft per year and has been trending down since '15 overall. Though HEMS has tried for improvements in turndowns for weather etc...the majority of HEMS is privately owned by Corporations, and if crew aren't bringing in patients, the company is not making money. Unfortunately, that can put pressure on some crew and pilots into flying when they should have had a turn down.

US HEMS Safety Analysis

Accidents: The 3 year moving average has dropped 33% from 12 to 8 per annum, though it seems to have plateaued over the last 5 years.  In 2015 there were 7 accidents (22% less than the 10 year average).

Fatal Accidents: The 3 year moving average finishes as it started at 4, though the 3 year moving average peaked in 2011 at 7 (due to 12 fatal accidents in 2010).  There has been negligible change in the last 4 years. In 2015 there were 5 fatal accidents (14% more than the 10 year average).

Fatalities: The 3 year moving average has dropped 33% from 13 to 9 per annum, though it seems to have plateaued over the last 5 years. In 2015 there were 9 fatalities (identical to the 10 year average).

Thanks for doing that math though.

I would have never known that medical crew plus a patient would be a less # of casualties (4) than a military aircraft capable of carrying 24 battle equipped Marines (not counting the crew) should it go down/crash. 

 

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Gil Bang

Gil Bang 25505

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If I may interrupt the pissing contest, I just got info, from somebody that knows about the Apache crash.  

https://www.armytimes.com/news/your-army/2022/06/06/2-injured-in-military-helicopter-crash-in-southern-alabama/

They are almost sure that the tail rotor lost a blade, which was found a half-mile away from the crash site.   All Apaches are grounded today, pending inspections.  This is not a known condition, and has only occurred previously as a result of battle damage. 

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Ag with kids

Ag with kids 576

Posted
Posted
44 minutes ago, Gil Bang said:

If I may interrupt the pissing contest, I just got info, from somebody that knows about the Apache crash.  

https://www.armytimes.com/news/your-army/2022/06/06/2-injured-in-military-helicopter-crash-in-southern-alabama/

They are almost sure that the tail rotor lost a blade, which was found a half-mile away from the crash site.   All Apaches are grounded today, pending inspections.  This is not a known condition, and has only occurred previously as a result of battle damage. 

Shit...LTE (Loss of Tailrotor Effectiveness) is not something I'd want to go through in a helicopter...

There's not a lot of great solutions...go faster so that the TR is not needed as much and try a roll on landing (luckily AH-64s have wheeled gear) or try to drop collective and descend quickly to limit the rotation.  Both are not good.  Especially if the aircraft is close to the ground and/or moving slowly or both...

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Gil Bang

Gil Bang 25505

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13 minutes ago, Ag with kids said:

Shit...LTE (Loss of Tailrotor Effectiveness) is not something I'd want to go through in a helicopter...

There's not a lot of great solutions...go faster so that the TR is not needed as much and try a roll on landing (luckily AH-64s have wheeled gear) or try to drop collective and descend quickly to limit the rotation.  Both are not good.  Especially if the aircraft is close to the ground and/or moving slowly or both...

The crew survived...that's what's important.  The IP required surgery on his back, the student was banged up but otherwise OK.  I'm sure you'll agree, that airframe is pretty fucking stout for crew safety.  

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Ag with kids

Ag with kids 576

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14 minutes ago, Gil Bang said:

The crew survived...that's what's important.  The IP required surgery on his back, the student was banged up but otherwise OK.  I'm sure you'll agree, that airframe is pretty fucking stout for crew safety.  

I know 2 AH-64 pilots here at work that have made "hard landings"...it's apparently a beast.  Glad these pilots are (relatively) Ok...

I'm a Bell homer and I admit it, but then, I can admit when Boeing ugly shit does well.  Especially since all they fucking do for the V-22 is AFCS/PFCS.  Well...I guess that's kind of important.  But, JFC their CLAWS are convoluted. 

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Bama Chick

Bama Chick 28595

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Tell him welcome to Paradise, and Semper Fi.
He's going to Miramar? 
Also, fuck Uncle Sam.  My kid's in fucking Alabama, and your's is in San Diego? 

lol - we can do an exchange visiting parent program!

Is your kid at Rucker, McClellan or Redstone?

He’s going to Pendleton. He’s currently on hour four waiting at the airport USO waiting on transportation.

He’s supposed to be there for 3-3 months but also found out tonight they don’t class up until July 11, so he’s going to be pulling guard duty and scut work for a month unless he gets approved for RA.

And I got the platform wrong - he’s going to be on Cobras not Ospreys.
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Ag with kids

Ag with kids 576

Posted
Posted
5 hours ago, Bama Chick said:


lol - we can do an exchange visiting parent program!

Is your kid at Rucker, McClellan or Redstone?

He’s going to Pendleton. He’s currently on hour four waiting at the airport USO waiting on transportation.

He’s supposed to be there for 3-3 months but also found out tonight they don’t class up until July 11, so he’s going to be pulling guard duty and scut work for a month unless he gets approved for RA.

And I got the platform wrong - he’s going to be on Cobras not Ospreys.

Nice...The Zulus are SWEET aircraft...Had this poster on my cube wall for awhile.

image-asset.jpeg?format=750w

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Gil Bang

Gil Bang 25505

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8 hours ago, Bama Chick said:


lol - we can do an exchange visiting parent program!

Is your kid at Rucker, McClellan or Redstone?

He’s going to Pendleton. He’s currently on hour four waiting at the airport USO waiting on transportation.

He’s supposed to be there for 3-3 months but also found out tonight they don’t class up until July 11, so he’s going to be pulling guard duty and scut work for a month unless he gets approved for RA.

And I got the platform wrong - he’s going to be on Cobras not Ospreys.

He's at Rucker, but he's almost done with flight school, and has orders for Bragg. 

Your son should be able to save some money; the only strip club here in Oceanside was demolished to make room for new condos!   

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DalTxHornFan

DalTxHornFan 3066

Posted
Posted
14 hours ago, Ag with kids said:

Shit...LTE (Loss of Tailrotor Effectiveness) is not something I'd want to go through in a helicopter...

There's not a lot of great solutions...go faster so that the TR is not needed as much and try a roll on landing (luckily AH-64s have wheeled gear) or try to drop collective and descend quickly to limit the rotation.  Both are not good.  Especially if the aircraft is close to the ground and/or moving slowly or both...

Helicopters scare me in general.  Even at best, they are managed chaos.  Give me a nice, single-engine plane ride any day.

 

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RPM

RPM 26073

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14 hours ago, DalTxHornFan said:

Helicopters scare me in general.  Even at best, they are managed chaos.  Give me a nice, single-engine plane ride any day.

 

Helicopters don't fly. They beat the air into submission.

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ScottS

ScottS 1039

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According to ESPN, one of the Marines that perished in this crash was the son of Dodgers legend Steve Sax.

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/34075356/son-ex-los-angeles-dodgers-player-steve-sax-five-marines-killed-training-flight-crash

Quote

LOS ANGELES -- Former Dodgers player Steve Sax says his 33-year-old son, who had always dreamed of being a pilot, was among five U.S. Marines killed during a training flight crash earlier this week in the California desert.

Capt. John J. Sax was among the aircrew of an Osprey tiltrotor aircraft that went down during training in a remote area in Imperial County, about 115 miles east of San Diego and about 50 miles from Yuma, Arizona.

"It is with complete devastation that I announce that my precious son, Johnny was one of the five US Marines that perished on Wednesday, June 8, in the Osprey Military crash near San Diego," Steve Sax said in a statement published Saturday by CBSLA-TV. "For those of you that knew Johnny, you saw his huge smile, bright light, his love for his family, the Marines, the joy of flying airplanes and defending our country! He was my hero and the best man I know, there was no better person to defend our country."

Sax said his son had wanted to be a pilot since he was young and would talk about the types of planes that were flying overhead while playing in the outfield in Little League baseball.

"There was never any doubt from a young age that Johnny would be a pilot and his passion was to fly!" Steve Sax said. "This loss will change my life forever and is a loss to not only the Marines but this world!"

Steve Sax played in the major leagues from 1981 to 1994, winning two World Series during his seven years as a second baseman with the Dodgers. Fans and the team offered condolences on social media.

"The Los Angeles Dodgers are saddened to hear about the passing of Steve Sax's son, John, and the five Marines who lost their lives in this week's tragic helicopter accident. Our thoughts and condolences go out to their families and friends," the Dodgers said in a tweet Saturday.

John J. Sax, of Placer, California, was one of two pilots killed in the crash, along with Capt. Nicholas P. Losapio, 31, of Rockingham, New Hampshire.

Also killed were three tiltrotor crew chiefs: Cpl. Nathan E. Carlson, 21, of Winnebago, Illinois; Cpl. Seth D. Rasmuson, 21, of Johnson, Wyoming; and Lance Cpl. Evan A. Strickland, 19, of Valencia, New Mexico.

The Marines were based at Camp Pendleton and assigned to Marine Medium Tiltrotor Squadron 364 of Marine Aircraft Group 39, part of the 3rd Marine Aircraft Wing headquartered at Marine Corps Air Station Miramar in San Diego.

The Osprey, a hybrid airplane and helicopter, flew in the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan but has been criticized by some as unsafe. It is designed to take off like a helicopter, rotate its propellers to a horizontal position and cruise like an airplane.

The cause of the crash was under investigation.

 

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Brisketexan

Brisketexan 103141

Posted
Posted

lol - we can do an exchange visiting parent program!

Is your kid at Rucker, McClellan or Redstone?

He’s going to Pendleton. He’s currently on hour four waiting at the airport USO waiting on transportation.

He’s supposed to be there for 3-3 months but also found out tonight they don’t class up until July 11, so he’s going to be pulling guard duty and scut work for a month unless he gets approved for RA.

And I got the platform wrong - he’s going to be on Cobras not Ospreys.

Love that they still fly Cobras. We spend a week every year in Laguna Beach, and we always see a pair fly by at least once.
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R.E. young Sax.  33 Y.O.  probably not too far out from making Major.

RIP to all 5 of them.

Semper Fidelis.

Edited by slorch
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Judge Roybeanbag

Judge Roybeanbag 11728

Posted
Posted
On 6/9/2022 at 9:30 PM, Ag with kids said:

I know 2 AH-64 pilots here at work that have made "hard landings"...it's apparently a beast.  Glad these pilots are (relatively) Ok...

I'm a Bell homer and I admit it, but then, I can admit when Boeing ugly shit does well.  Especially since all they fucking do for the V-22 is AFCS/PFCS.  Well...I guess that's kind of important.  But, JFC their CLAWS are convoluted. 

I’ve given you grief mainly because you’re aggy, but I will say the process to get something airworthy is a bitch, maintaining it is worse. So in that respect thanks for your service.  

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jdhorn92

jdhorn92 1524

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Posted (edited)

Steve Sax was one of my heroes growing in Southern CA.  Stud 2nd baseman who took over for Davey Lopes.  Sax was one of the rookie of the year players the Dodgers grew on the farm.  Fernando, Sax, Pedro Guererro, the lefty reliever?? who had all the drug problems, Mike Marshall or Greg Brock.  They had something sick like 5 or 6 in a row in the mid-late 80's

 

edit:  had to google it:

Steve Sax 1982
Fernando Valenzuela 1981
Steve Howe 1980
Rick Sutcliffe 1979
Edited by jdhorn92
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Gil Bang

Gil Bang 25505

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1 hour ago, jdhorn92 said:

Steve Sax was one of my heroes growing in Southern CA.  Stud 2nd baseman who took over for Davey Lopes.  Sax was one of the rookie of the year players the Dodgers grew on the farm.  Fernando, Sax, Pedro Guererro, the lefty reliever?? who had all the drug problems, Mike Marshall or Greg Brock.  They had something sick like 5 or 6 in a row in the mid-late 80's

 

edit:  had to google it:

Steve Sax 1982
Fernando Valenzuela 1981
Steve Howe 1980
Rick Sutcliffe 1979

When Sax was at 2nd, anybody sitting behind 1st needed to wear a facemask.

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jdhorn92

jdhorn92 1524

Posted
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19 hours ago, Gil Bang said:

When Sax was at 2nd, anybody sitting behind 1st needed to wear a facemask.

haha, yeah that happened in New York I think, after his best years as a Dodger.  Same thing happened to Knoblauch iirc. 

Incidentally, Sax did a commercial in the 80's where the janitor comes into the locker room while he is lacing up his spikes, something about nerves and hanging them up if you ever lose the butterflies before a game....that commercial always stuck with me when he started getting the yips

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C-Man

C-Man 26535

Posted
Posted (edited)
On 6/13/2022 at 4:54 PM, jdhorn92 said:

Steve Sax was one of my heroes growing in Southern CA.  Stud 2nd baseman who took over for Davey Lopes.  Sax was one of the rookie of the year players the Dodgers grew on the farm.  Fernando, Sax, Pedro Guererro, the lefty reliever?? who had all the drug problems, Mike Marshall or Greg Brock.  They had something sick like 5 or 6 in a row in the mid-late 80's

 

edit:  had to google it:

Steve Sax 1982
Fernando Valenzuela 1981
Steve Howe 1980
Rick Sutcliffe 1979

I saw Howe, Valenzuela and Sax all play at VJ Keefe Stadium in San Antonio when they played for the SA Dodgers, their Double A team at the time. Sax was my favorite player in SA because I was a middle infielder and he was a bad ass player. He was dating my dad's secretary at the time so I got to meet him a time or two at office functions that family went to. I remember an event at the OG Fuddrucker's and Sax telling my dad and I that he was about to get called up to the big league Dodgers. He said once he did we should come out and catch a game at Dodger Stadium. He'd leave us tickets, etc. He got called up and won a WS ring in '81 and was a fixture in the lineup after that.

I'm pretty sure we made it out there in early July 1982 (if not, it was 1983) for a game against (ironically) the Astros. Sax was true to his word. He left us four tickets for our family and we got to go down to the clubhouse after the game. I got to meet Tom Lasorda and several other Dodgers greats. Steve Garvey, my favorite MLB player before Sax, completely blew everybody off on his way by. I'll have to dig it up but my picture with my little brother and Sax was used by my parents for my senior ad in my HS yearbook in 1991. You'll love my bowlcut. (My mother was my barber until probably middle school or so.)

At any rate, Sax was a super nice dude that I never talked to -- or saw again -- after that day at Dodger Stadium. Sorry for the loss of his son.

Edited by C-Man
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