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8 hours ago, hobbes2702 said:

Fuck Derek Jeter. One of the most overrated players in baseball for 20 years. Not sure how he ever won a gold glove.

“Jeter is overrated” is overrated. It’s one of those opinions people spout because they think it makes them sound smart or against the grain. 
 

There’s just 5 people that have ever played in the MLB with more career hits than Jeter. 5. And it wasn’t just longevity, he has a career BA of .310 with a career OPS of .817. 11th all time in SS WAR (and that’s after his defensive stat subtractions). Every other SS near him in that category is in the HOF. Oh yeah and 5 WS rings. 

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Posted (edited)
22 minutes ago, Helobious said:

“Jeter is overrated” is overrated. It’s one of those opinions people spout because they think it makes them sound smart or against the grain. 
 

There’s just 5 people that have ever played in the MLB with more career hits than Jeter. 5. And it wasn’t just longevity, he has a career BA of .310 with a career OPS of .817. 11th all time in SS WAR (and that’s after his defensive stat subtractions). Every other SS near him in that category is in the HOF. Oh yeah and 5 WS rings. 

Notice I didn’t comment on his offense. Who said he shouldn’t be in the HOF?
Jeter was overrated. He has 5 gold gloves despite consistently being below average defensively and sometimes towards the bottom of the league.

 

Edited by hobbes2702
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17 minutes ago, Helobious said:

“Jeter is overrated” is overrated. It’s one of those opinions people spout because they think it makes them sound smart or against the grain. 
 

There’s just 5 people that have ever played in the MLB with more career hits than Jeter. 5. And it wasn’t just longevity, he has a career BA of .310 with a career OPS of .817. 11th all time in SS WAR (and that’s after his defensive stat subtractions). Every other SS near him in that category is in the HOF. Oh yeah and 5 WS rings. 

Mostly agree. He was both somewhat overrated and also a great player. Overrated in the sense that he wasn’t a particularly good defensive SS (but won a bunch of gold gloves) and had the incessant “postseason hero” narrative on a hugely successful NY team (he was the exact same hitter in the postseason as he was in the regular season, he didn’t have some “magic” that made him better in the postseason). But, that doesn’t change the fact that he was a very good player and was remarkably consistent for a very long time, a clear HOFer.

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1 hour ago, Helobious said:

“Jeter is overrated” is overrated. It’s one of those opinions people spout because they think it makes them sound smart or against the grain. 
 

There’s just 5 people that have ever played in the MLB with more career hits than Jeter. 5. And it wasn’t just longevity, he has a career BA of .310 with a career OPS of .817. 11th all time in SS WAR (and that’s after his defensive stat subtractions). Every other SS near him in that category is in the HOF. Oh yeah and 5 WS rings. 

Pretty sure Gold Gloves are handed out for defense just FYI

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On 8/5/2022 at 8:59 AM, Hank Chinaski said:

Mostly agree. He was both somewhat overrated and also a great player. Overrated in the sense that he wasn’t a particularly good defensive SS (but won a bunch of gold gloves) and had the incessant “postseason hero” narrative on a hugely successful NY team (he was the exact same hitter in the postseason as he was in the regular season, he didn’t have some “magic” that made him better in the postseason). 

If you compare most players regular season stats to their post-season stats, you will find that the regular season stats exceed the playoffs.  The players are ususally facing the top end of the rotation (no #5 starters for sure), and they are facing the best teams.  In essence, you have said that Jeter was just as good against superior pitching during the postseason.  You just didn't realize it.

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31 minutes ago, cochamps said:

If you compare most players regular season stats to their post-season stats, you will find that the regular season stats exceed the playoffs.  The players are ususally facing the top end of the rotation (no #5 starters for sure), and they are facing the best teams.  In essence, you have said that Jeter was just as good against superior pitching during the postseason.  You just didn't realize it.

Is there evidence that postseason pitching (in the wild card era) is actually better than regular season pitching, over a large enough sample? Genuine question - I don’t think I’ve seen any data on this. I understand the hypothesis, but don’t know how/if it has been studied.

Anyway, Jeter played in 158 postseason games in his career - so, a full season’s worth. I would suspect that over 700+ postseason PAs, he faced a few great pitchers, some good pitchers, and many average-ish pitchers, etc. 

Given that we have a large sample there and a large sample for his career performance, and the results are nearly identical, then the most reasonable conclusion is that the quality of pitching he faced over each sample is basically the same. 

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Posted (edited)
29 minutes ago, Hank Chinaski said:

Is there evidence that postseason pitching (in the wild card era) is actually better than regular season pitching, over a large enough sample? Genuine question - I don’t think I’ve seen any data on this. I understand the hypothesis, but don’t know how/if it has been studied.

Anyway, Jeter played in 158 postseason games in his career - so, a full season’s worth. I would suspect that over 700+ postseason PAs, he faced a few great pitchers, some good pitchers, and many average-ish pitchers, etc. 

Given that we have a large sample there and a large sample for his career performance, and the results are nearly identical, then the most reasonable conclusion is that the quality of pitching he faced over each sample is basically the same. 

Realizing that this is anecdotal data only, but I have looked at all the NYY greats (Ruth, Gehrig, Dickey, DiMaggio, Berra and Mantle) and none of them exceed their regular season stats in the WS.  As you accurately point out, the smple size is limited - that is why I've used the guys who played enough to have much data.  I think where we may disagree is your terminology of playoff pitchers consisting of "a few great, some good, and many average-ish".  I would say that there are some "average-ish" but the number of those guys you getting starts in the post season where ther are more off days, is clearly fewer than the regular season.  JMO.  I have looked at this enough to be comfortable with my position regarding Jeter's numbers = regular season, but will acknowledge this hasn't been some Bill James study.😉

Edited by cochamps
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Posted (edited)
27 minutes ago, cochamps said:

Realizing that this is anecdotal data only, but I have looked at all the NYY greats (Ruth, Gehrig, Dickey, DiMaggio, Berra and Mantle) and none of them exceed their regular season stats in the WS.  As you accurately point out, the smple size is limited - that is why I've used the guys who played enough to have much data.  I think where we may disagree is your terminology of playoff pitchers consisting of "a few great, some good, and many average-ish".  I would say that there are some "average-ish" but the number of those guys you getting starts in the post season where ther are more off days, is clearly fewer than the regular season.  JMO.  I have looked at this enough to be comfortable with my position regarding Jeter's numbers = regular season, but will acknowledge this hasn't been some Bill James study.😉

That’s not really comparable. None of those guys played wild card series. 
 

A better comp is someone like Bernie Williams. His slash is basically the same in both playoffs and regular season. ManRam is slightly down. Posada is down. Ortiz is up from regular season. 

Jeter’s consistency at the plate can’t really be questioned. He was a really good hitter for a long time. Doesn’t change the fact that he has 5 gold gloves and should have zero.

Edited by hobbes2702
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Thread inspired me to do a Jeter stat deep-dive. It’s crazy that the “worst defensive shortstop ever” is top 50 all time in fielding %. But people want to point to some defensive metrics that they don’t even understand to say that he was. 
 

Seriously, look into the factors that make up DRS & UZR and tell me how a lot of that isn’t arbitrary or sketchy to quantify. 

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14 minutes ago, Helobious said:

Thread inspired me to do a Jeter stat deep-dive. It’s crazy that the “worst defensive shortstop ever” is top 50 all time in fielding %. But people want to point to some defensive metrics that they don’t even understand to say that he was. 
 

Seriously, look into the factors that make up DRS & UZR and tell me how a lot of that isn’t arbitrary or sketchy to quantify. 

Who are you quoting that called him “worst defensive shortstop ever”.

Sorry but you’re just wrong. Below average defensive shortstop. The fact that you site fielding percentage as an indicator of quality defense shows that you just don’t really understand.

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2 hours ago, cochamps said:

If you compare most players regular season stats to their post-season stats, you will find that the regular season stats exceed the playoffs.  The players are ususally facing the top end of the rotation (no #5 starters for sure), and they are facing the best teams.  In essence, you have said that Jeter was just as good against superior pitching during the postseason.  You just didn't realize it.

Este. If you're putting up the same numbers in the playoffs then you're better in the playoffs. In any sport.

 

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Not to mention he was an icon on a seriously hated franchise. With Yankee fans known to over scrutinize every single movement one of their players makes. In an insane media market. And he handled it all with class and respect. Was the true face of the franchise that had a pretty amazing run during his time there. So basically Baby Hat GIF

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Jeter was the third (ok second) best shortstop on his team.  I do not understand how Jeter is in the HOF and Arod is not.  They are both eminently punchable people when I see them on tv.  That's the only thing they are even close to being similar on talent wise.

The Mariners flushed a lot of talent away when I first got to Seattle.  

 

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Jeter wasn’t the best defensively towards the end of his career which he basically owned up to in the doc. Even with his defensive struggles at times, there’s no other SS I want other than Jeter come October and November.  He was so damn good when it mattered,  and his ability to be the type of leader he was given the circumstances is something that separates him from other great players. 

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It was pretty good except for the cringy part where they tried to make some big deal about the guy saying Jeter was colorless..

Jeter was a below avg fielder but the guy hit and was a gamer. 

ARod is stupid and puts off the "bitch" vibe constantly.

If Jeter plays on the Brewers instead of the Yankees he's basically Robin Yount.

 

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On 8/8/2022 at 10:33 AM, dcar00 said:

It was pretty good except for the cringy part where they tried to make some big deal about the guy saying Jeter was colorless..

Jeter was a below avg fielder but the guy hit and was a gamer. 

ARod is stupid and puts off the "bitch" vibe constantly.

If Jeter plays on the Brewers instead of the Yankees he's basically Robin Yount.

 

Interesting comp.  I think his offense is most comparable to Yount teammate Paul Molitor.  (Molitor's swing was as pretty as Jeter's was ugly, but similar results).

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11 minutes ago, cochamps said:

Interesting comp.  I think his offense is most comparable to Yount teammate Paul Molitor.  (Molitor's swing was as pretty as Jeter's was ugly, but similar results).

agree offense is almost identical to Molitor.  I went with Yount just because he was SS for about half his career and both weren't great fielders.

No beef against Jeter at all, dude was pretty clutch in post season, never roided, and kept it professional.

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5 hours ago, Beau Vine said:

That’s spot on.

Though Jeteration was not as egregious as Tebowation. Gary Daniels actually said something to the effect of “you become a better person just by being in Tebow’s presence” and called him “the best running QB in the history of college football” two years after VY went pro. Tebow is/was the single most overrated athlete of my lifetime and I’m not sure there is a close second. 

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1 minute ago, Hank Chinaski said:

Gary Daniels actually said something to the effect of “you become a better person just by being in Tebow’s presence”

Pretty sure that was Thom Brennaman, who ironically, apparently didn't spend nearly enough time in Tebow's presence, as there's a drive into deep left field by Castellanos and that'll be a home run. And so that'll make it a 4-0 ballgame.

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Just now, Beau Vine said:

Pretty sure that was Thom Brennaman, who ironically, apparently didn't spend nearly enough time in Tebow's presence, as there's a drive into deep left field by Castellanos and that'll be a home run. And so that'll make it a 4-0 ballgame.

Ha, could have been. Danielson said something that was hilariously hyperbolic in that vein. 

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  • 5 weeks later...
On 8/8/2022 at 10:33 AM, dcar00 said:

If Jeter plays on the Brewers instead of the Yankees he's basically Robin Yount.

Perfect summary.

Being great and being overrated are not mutually exclusive things.

I do give Jeter credit for consistently performing in a pressure cooker.  And for hating A Rod.  But there's an awful lot of myth-making around him.  He's basically a 10-2 SEC team: yeah, that's very good and that's a tough place to go 10-2, but there were several better that year and every other.

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