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Worldwide Israel/Palestine War Protests Thread


bolverk

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As sure as the sun rises, there is always something fucktarded about young activists on almost every topic they ever wade into. Thats why they attract derision - its just so easy.

The real sad thing is when gullible adults run cover for them. 

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2 hours ago, Willfully Horn said:

Greta’s parents are anti-fascist, and some folks think that’s a bad thing?

The North Korean government is a Democratic People’s Republic, and some folks think that’s a bad thing?

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

The North Korean government is a Democratic People’s Republic, and some folks think that’s a bad thing?

Yeah, I think the norks are run by authoritarians, and their people are fucked over by their government. If you want to pledge fealty to fascists, do so. I’ll assume you get confused by the disconnect between label and fact.

 

Edited to ask if you think antifa is not anti-fascist, and if so, why?

Edited by Willfully Horn
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10 minutes ago, Willfully Horn said:

Edited to ask if you think antifa is not anti-fascist, and if so, why?

Like the norks not having actual democratic representation of the people, “antifa” has nothing to do with opposing fascism. 

That term is a cudgel used by ugly societal-rejects as an avenue to rebel against normal society. Probably because they hate their parents (you know, the true and original oppressors in their miserable lives). 

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1 hour ago, bolverk said:

That was NOT your question. This was:

image.thumb.png.cd12b3fe8ad3839b792376f3b09c24c7.png

You asked whether Visegrad was a trustworthy news source based on its editorial stance. I answered in the context of that tweet.

image.png.2770f24f82ee45ad67bee8698ffc4f33.png

 

Protesting Israel's participation in a silly talent contest does NOT constitute being ANTI-ISRAEL. So many fucking tweets in this thread continue to association protests about Israeli policy as meaning being against Israel as a nation or favoring Hamas.

PRO-PALESTINE =/= ANTI-ISRAEL

PRO-PALESTINE =/= PRO-HAMAS

The remainder of my answer explains why I reject that framing of the situation.

In that clip, she doesn't say she is anti-Israel, as the tweet claims. Go back and listen to the clip.

Where the fuck in that headline does it say "anti-Israel"? It says people are protesting the Israeli competitor's participation in a talent contest. That doesn't mean they're against Israel as a nation.

All of that other text you deleted explained the nuance and context that you are apparently not grasping.

Protesting AGAINST AN ACTION by an entity DOES NOT MEAN you are AGAINST THE ESSENCE of that entity.

 

EDIT: Let's make this very clear and simple.

I am against ketchup on steaks. I will protest you pouring ketchup on my steak.

That does not mean I am anti-ketchup. I like ketchup on french fries just fine. 

Blah blah blah red font didn’t read blah blah blah eat a dick. 

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14 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

Like the norks not having actual democratic representation of the people, “antifa” has nothing to do with opposing fascism. 

That term is a cudgel used by ugly societal-rejects as an avenue to rebel against normal society. Probably because they hate their parents (you know, the true and original oppressors in their miserable lives). 

Interesting. I can’t deny there are people who use that group for the purpose you describe, but I don’t label the whole for the actions of the few. So, how do you choose when to throw the baby out with the bath water, and when to not do so? 
 

To explain my perspective, I remember active pushback during nutbar-right demonstrations. You know the ones to which I refer, and fascism is a fair description. That has defined my view of the group, generally.

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26 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

While I agree with your premise, I think the folks protesting against an Israeli participating in a "silly talent contest" tip-toes the line of being anti-Israel.  

Unless I missed it, this lady didn't say anything negative about Palestine.  She's as innocent as any of us who were against the invasion of Irag/Afghanistan after 9/11, but happen to live in the US. 

How does stopping her from being in a talent show move their agenda forward?  She just wants to sing.

For fuck's sake, this is so stupid, and I question my sanity for continuing to participate in this conversation. Let me say, YET AGAIN, I think all these protests are counterproductive.

First off, I'll quote 52-80:

Quote

 

Guys, when noted tabloid guardian writes “thousands protest against Israel”, it doesnt mean the people are “anti-israel”.

 

He leaves off a very important part of that sentence: "taking part in Eurovision."

In other words, the protesters are against the Israeli contestant's participation. Does that mean all the protesters are anti-Israel? I'm sure there are some who are opposed to the State of Israel. Is Greta Van Whatever one of them? How the fuck do I know when she's not on film (at least in the clip) saying that she's anti-Israel. Come the fuck on.

Let's look at two countries not allowed to participate in Eurovision?

  1. Russia. Does that mean the people who put on Eurovision are anti-Russian, or does it mean they oppose Russia's actions in Ukraine? Am I the only one who can distinguish the difference? For example, I'm not anti-Russian; I am anti-Putin. It's like the fucking Olympic games.
  2. Palestine. Even though several European nations recognize the Palestinian State (including this year's host country), Palestine isn't allowed to participate. Here's the story of a Palestinian who tried. Why is Palestine not allowed to participate when other countries like Bosnia, which didn't have full diplomatic recognition, were able to?

Are potential participants from those two countries innocent? Likely, just as you say, the Israeli competitor is also innocent -- I don't doubt that at all. That said, people are often barred from international competitions for whatever stupid shit their government is doing. And, to be clear, I'm not saying the Israeli singer should be barred from competition, and I'm not saying Russia should be allowed to compete.

Just pointing out some potential inconsistencies in these decisions and how it's judgments on their governments' actions that drive the decisions -- and NOT the countries themselves. I would like to know, however, why Palestine hasn't ever been allowed to compete.

But the biggest WTF of all is why the hell is Australia allowed to participate in a European talent contest? If anything, that should be drawing the most scrutiny.

 

Quote

(Will you extend this interpretive generosity towards people protesting against immigration, for example?)

Absolutely. Suppose they can give a logical rationale for their opposition to immigration that isn't based on race/religion. In that case, I have to take them at their word that they aren't racists, xenophobes, or religious fanatics. I still might disagree with their stance, but I'm not going to come into a thread and tell the board I wish cops would break up their protests and start cracking skulls.

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59 minutes ago, bolverk said:

For fuck's sake, this is so stupid, and I question my sanity

I question your sanity too.  

I don't recall you asking my opinion as to whether Russians or Palestinians should be allowed to participate in Eurovision.  But the answer would have been Russia yes, Palestine no... because it's not in Europe.  Frankly, I don't think Israel should be in for the same reason, but my understanding is that Eurovision is a TV show not a government agency so it can choose whoever the fuck they want to be part of it.

My point is that I don't think that decision should be based on how popular the contestant's home country is in a given year.  Pick the countries who can participate and stick with it.  A singing competition has fuck all to do with the politics of a person's home country.

If you can't see that, then you've got other issues to deal with.

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3 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

I question your sanity too.  

I don't recall you asking my opinion as to whether Russians or Palestinians should be allowed to participate in Eurovision.  But the answer would have been Russia yes, Palestine no... because it's not in Europe.  Frankly, I don't think Israel should be in for the same reason, but my understanding is that Eurovision is a TV show not a government agency so it can choose whoever the fuck they want to be part of it.

My point is that I don't think that decision should be based on how popular the contestant's home country is in a given year.  Pick the countries who can participate and stick with it.  A singing competition has fuck all to do with the politics of a person's home country.

If you can't see that, then you've got other issues to deal with.

Yes, yes, and yes.

Why the fuck is Israel or Australia in a fucking European talent contest? Why is Russia, a European country, out, while Israel, a Levantine country, in? If a Levantine country is in, why isn't Palestine? If they're inviting Australia, then where the fuck is New Zealand or Papua New Guinea? And what's with the discrimination against Canada and the US?

Look, man, I'm not the one who brought Greta Tunaburger's protest into this bigger debate. I'm also not the one who's accusing her of being anti-Israel over protests in a fucking song contest. There was a ridiculous turd that was dropped into this swirling toilet. and that turd was the implication that you can't protest the Israeli government's actions without also being anti-Israel (i.e., anti-semite).

Since then, I've been holding onto the mast, standing my ground, and riding this turd surf like the Tidy Bowl Man on his raft.

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57 minutes ago, bolverk said:

There was a ridiculous turd that was dropped into this swirling toilet. and that turd was the implication that you can't protest the Israeli government's actions without also being anti-Israel (i.e., anti-semite).

Since then, I've been holding onto the mast, standing my ground, and riding this turd surf like the Tidy Bowl Man on his raft.

 

 

The turd was dropped by the protestors themselves.  They've provided the ambiguity in their message by who they've allowed to stand with them.  The things spoken aloud, on signs, posters, spray painted, etc. has been a mix of turd and "legit" protest from the start.  If protestors want to be seen in a certain light, they should avoid all the hate that's taken over these encampments and marches.  

 

 

Dazzling-Blue-Iberianchiffchaff-size-res

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, bolverk said:

Yes, yes, and yes.

Why the fuck is Israel or Australia in a fucking European talent contest? Why is Russia, a European country, out, while Israel, a Levantine country, in? If a Levantine country is in, why isn't Palestine? If they're inviting Australia, then where the fuck is New Zealand or Papua New Guinea? And what's with the discrimination against Canada and the US?

Look, man, I'm not the one who brought Greta Tunaburger's protest into this bigger debate. I'm also not the one who's accusing her of being anti-Israel over protests in a fucking song contest. There was a ridiculous turd that was dropped into this swirling toilet. and that turd was the implication that you can't protest the Israeli government's actions without also being anti-Israel (i.e., anti-semite).

Since then, I've been holding onto the mast, standing my ground, and riding this turd surf like the Tidy Bowl Man on his raft.

Listen, I think we agree on at least 95% of this.  I don't think protesting Israel's response to 10/7 is necessarily anti-Israel or anti-Semitic, but I don't like the idea of people protesting the participation of a person in a talent competition just because they are from Israel.  

We can't choose the country were born into any more than we can choose our race.

I don't think Greta Tunaburger (love the play on her name, FWIW) is anti-Israel or anti-Semitic, but I think she is misguided in this instance.

Edited by DixonHur
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Y’all do understand that “countries” don’t enter Eurovision, certain broadcasters that are either full or associate members of the European Broadcasting Union enter Eurovision? Start there and then you can ask the questions about “who gets to play” more in a more productive way. 
 

The confluence of the world’s single stupidest competition and the Israel war is making otherwise smart people lose the plot.

And Bolverk, I don’t know what point you’re trying to make but “protesting the participation of an Israeli network as a sign of disapproval of the broadcasting state of Israel” is a far more coherent and ethically sound proposition than “protesting the inclusion of this specific Israeli person.” I don’t think you’re supporting the protesters like you think you are here. 

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, DixonHur said:

Obviously I don't know the details, but if the article is taken at face value, it's not a good look for UT, IMO.

I have my doubts about the details:

 

Untitled.webp

Michael Minasi / KUT News

Rich Heyman talks to police at the April 29 protest at UT Austin.

 

Edited by Bevo
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A copy of the probable cause affidavit states that Heyman approached state troopers and yelled in their faces, "F**k you, you don't belong here!" as police began making their way toward the protesters in the encampment on the lawn of the university's South Mall.
Police backed by Texas Department of Public Safety troopers arrest protesters at the University of Texas campus April 29.

The charging document states that the officers used their bikes to create a barrier while troopers approached the encampment. That document says that Heyman attempted to "breach (the) line" and maintained his "verbally aggressive demeanor."

DPS trooper Thomas Goodson states in the charging document that he pushed Heyman back, and the professor responded by yelling. At some point, Heyman put his finger in Goodson's face and grabbed his bike by the handle and "physically started to pull my bike away from me, interfering with my assigned duties," the affidavit says.

The charging document notes that Heyman broke the trooper's "state-issued bike bell," which costs $62.

UT police then pulled Heyman away, and he yelled, "F**k you, I am a f**king professor here!"

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Posted (edited)
28 minutes ago, Bevo said:

A copy of the probable cause affidavit states that Heyman approached state troopers and yelled in their faces, "F**k you, you don't belong here!" as police began making their way toward the protesters in the encampment on the lawn of the university's South Mall.
Police backed by Texas Department of Public Safety troopers arrest protesters at the University of Texas campus April 29.

The charging document states that the officers used their bikes to create a barrier while troopers approached the encampment. That document says that Heyman attempted to "breach (the) line" and maintained his "verbally aggressive demeanor."

DPS trooper Thomas Goodson states in the charging document that he pushed Heyman back, and the professor responded by yelling. At some point, Heyman put his finger in Goodson's face and grabbed his bike by the handle and "physically started to pull my bike away from me, interfering with my assigned duties," the affidavit says.

The charging document notes that Heyman broke the trooper's "state-issued bike bell," which costs $62.

UT police then pulled Heyman away, and he yelled, "F**k you, I am a f**king professor here!"

Well, you can be sure that that affidavit does not state the facts in any way favorable to Heyman.

And, does anyone think that what is documented there deserves criminal charges?  Particularly in this context?

Somewhat ironically, if Heyman was a Karen outside a Starbucks employing similar speech and actions in regard to her defective caramel macchiato, we'd probably be cheering this arrest affidavit.

Edited by TwiceHorn
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1 minute ago, Bevo said:

Heyman is Karen - entitled, whiny, derogatory to the workers.

The Uvalde Defenders aren't workers at UT. They are thugs that came in to violently suppress peaceful free speech at UT. Hartzell and the rest of you authoritarians have been using what's happened nationally as some sort of sleight of hand trick to justify what they did at Texas

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1 hour ago, Captainant said:

The Uvalde Defenders aren't workers at UT. They are thugs that came in to violently suppress peaceful free speech at UT. Hartzell and the rest of you authoritarians have been using what's happened nationally as some sort of sleight of hand trick to justify what they did at Texas

 

Proof?

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Willfully Horn said:

He is presumed innocent. Proof is on the state. Show us his tent.

In the photo, it looks like the lecturer is yelling at the cops. It really surprises me because lecturers typically listen and learn. But, that isn't what I'm talking about. I'm talking about proof that I'm authoritarian. Maybe, I'm Jewish and despise the attacks against Jews. Maybe, I'm black and despise racist speech. Maybe, I don't like kids wandering into the middle of a movie and telling us what it is about. Maybe I think students and agitators should be learning rather than lecturing. Maybe, I don't like my university being turned into a zoo that fucks up finals and graduation. Maybe, I think that because my wife was convicted for interfering with an arrest when she was a teenager that equal treatment should be applied to all. Maybe, I'm familiar with history of the movements in Italy and in Germany that began as socialist and ended as Fascist which despite their hatred of each other, supported the same sort of mind that proved actually closely related. There are lots of reasons for me to support his arrest and his dismissal from school that don't fit Captain's rationale.

Edited by Bevo
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28 minutes ago, Bevo said:

In the photo, it looks like the lecturer is yelling at the cops. It really surprises me because lecturers typically listen and learn. But, that isn't what I'm talking about. I'm talking about proof that I'm authoritarian. Maybe, I'm Jewish and despise the attacks against Jews. Maybe, I'm black and despise racist speech. Maybe, I don't like kids wandering into the middle of a movie and telling us what it is about. Maybe I think students and agitators should be learning rather than lecturing. Maybe, I don't like my university being turned into a zoo that fucks up finals and graduation. Maybe, I think that because my wife was convicted for interfering with an arrest when she was a teenager that equal treatment should be applied to all. Maybe, I'm familiar with history of the movements in Italy and in Germany that began as socialist and ended as Fascist which despite their hatred of each other, supported the same sort of mind that proved actually closely related. There are lots of reasons for me to support his arrest and his dismissal from school that don't fit Captain's rationale.

Maybe. I damn sure am the father of a young UT grad who went to one of the first BLM protests, and who was standing near the young man who caught a metal shot “bean bag” with his head, which entered his brain, and which was fired by APD while confronting protestors. Could have been my daughter. Exercising a Constitutional Right. Forgive me if authoritarian tactics piss me off, and I oppose them regardless of whichever side of the spectrum they originate. And so, now that my youngest is on the 40 acres, I expect her to be able to speak her mind, in public, without fear of jackboots and their sycophantic supporters.

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41 minutes ago, Willfully Horn said:

Maybe. I damn sure am the father of a young UT grad who went to one of the first BLM protests, and who was standing near the young man who caught a metal shot “bean bag” with his head, which entered his brain, and which was fired by APD while confronting protestors. Could have been my daughter. Exercising a Constitutional Right. Forgive me if authoritarian tactics piss me off, and I oppose them regardless of whichever side of the spectrum they originate. And so, now that my youngest is on the 40 acres, I expect her to be able to speak her mind, in public, without fear of jackboots and their sycophantic supporters.

There’s free speech and then there’s taking over buildings and disrupting others right to an education

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3 minutes ago, closetohumping said:

There’s free speech and then there’s taking over buildings and disrupting others right to an education

I agree, I'm against the encampments and breaking into/occupying buildings, but that's clearly not what's happening in the image.  He's yelling at the cop.  How is that a fire-able offense?  Destruction of property?  It was a fucking bicycle bell, for God sake.  Let's try to have some perspective.  

 

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Posted (edited)
21 minutes ago, closetohumping said:

There’s free speech and then there’s taking over buildings and disrupting others right to an education

Sure, you’re right. Again, the burden of proof (of taking over buildings, or erecting tents) is on the state. Arrest those who do so, without stepping on the rights of others to protest.

Disrupting classes? Only the disingenuous believe that protests do that. Stormtroopers massing to bring violence into protests? Yeah, that belies the sanctity of class time non interference.

Edited by Willfully Horn
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11 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

I agree, I'm against the encampments and breaking into/occupying buildings, but that's clearly not what's happening in the image.  He's yelling at the cop.  How is that a fire-able offense?  Destruction of property?  It was a fucking bicycle bell, for God sake.  Let's try to have some perspective.  

 

Fuck up my bicycle bell and see what happens! 

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In the 80s there was a crude shack ("shanty") built to protest apartheid on the west mall that stood intact for a long fucking time, maybe several years

+++

the IT discipline of Service Management has a concept called "root-cause analysis"

i propose the root cause of the reaction to the "anti-semitic" protests is the fact that israel has brain-washed the population of the united states to believe that questioning israel 100% directly equates to attacking the jewish religion and in the wake of the holocaust that messaging was sold to the us populace hook line and sinker for the rest of the 20th century

only today, with the parents of ww2 children almost entirely gone, are there cracks in the dike of consensus reality, despite israel's history of terrorism which is never reported, taught or discussed in the us media or education system

and why is that?

it's the same root-cause reason hartzell and wheels came heavy with pertinacity and forecast:

they got a call

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1 hour ago, DixonHur said:

I agree, I'm against the encampments and breaking into/occupying buildings, but that's clearly not what's happening in the image.  He's yelling at the cop.  How is that a fire-able offense?  Destruction of property?  It was a fucking bicycle bell, for God sake.  Let's try to have some perspective.  

 

I’m not talking about that picture nor did I say anything about destruction of property.  But I’m against that too

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2 hours ago, Willfully Horn said:

Maybe. I damn sure am the father of a young UT grad who went to one of the first BLM protests, and who was standing near the young man who caught a metal shot “bean bag” with his head, which entered his brain, and which was fired by APD while confronting protestors. Could have been my daughter. Exercising a Constitutional Right. Forgive me if authoritarian tactics piss me off, and I oppose them regardless of whichever side of the spectrum they originate. And so, now that my youngest is on the 40 acres, I expect her to be able to speak her mind, in public, without fear of jackboots and their sycophantic supporters.

That is wild that your daughter was so close to that event. My parents were near Kent State when the National Guard killed those four students. My mom was also near Philadelphia, MS when Chaney, Goodman, and Schwerner were killed by the KKK in 1964.

I hope most understand that they might get arrested or fired for fighting with the police. There are actions and there are consequences. And there is a time and a place for everything.

As for the event itself. Personally, I believe that Palestinians should live in peace in the US and Jews should live in peace in the US. So, I guess that makes me more libertarian in that respect.

Being rigid in you right to protest anywhere and any place without police intervention and being in support in asking Hertzel to step down, I assume that when protests again happen during the DNC convention, you will be pissed that police block the protestors,and will ask for the head of the DNC, which I assume is Biden, to step down. I get your position, but I am actually okay with using the police to keep the Palestinian protestors away from the DNC.

 

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53 minutes ago, Hagbard Celine said:

In the 80s there was a crude shack ("shanty") built to protest apartheid on the west mall that stood intact for a long fucking time, maybe several years

+++

the IT discipline of Service Management has a concept called "root-cause analysis"

i propose the root cause of the reaction to the "anti-semitic" protests is the fact that israel has brain-washed the population of the united states to believe that questioning israel 100% directly equates to attacking the jewish religion and in the wake of the holocaust that messaging was sold to the us populace hook line and sinker for the rest of the 20th century

only today, with the parents of ww2 children almost entirely gone, are there cracks in the dike of consensus reality, despite israel's history of terrorism which is never reported, taught or discussed in the us media or education system

and why is that?

it's the same root-cause reason hartzell and wheels came heavy with pertinacity and forecast:

they got a call

For sure, the youth are killing it by fracturing consensus reality, I’m sure it’s a cause to celebrate. (Check the date on this, too).

image.thumb.jpeg.0a7baaa3f94045c2e793bf00c75cf3cd.jpeg

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10 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

For sure, the youth are killing it by fracturing consensus reality, I’m sure it’s a cause to celebrate. (Check the date on this, too).

image.thumb.jpeg.0a7baaa3f94045c2e793bf00c75cf3cd.jpeg

Probably a bad opt-in poll.

https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2024/03/05/online-opt-in-polls-can-produce-misleading-results-especially-for-young-people-and-hispanic-adults/

Online opt-in polls have become increasingly popular. And for some purposes, such as election polling, they can perform similarly to more traditional survey approaches.

There is evidence, however, that the online environment in which they operate is somewhat unstable.

In particular, several recent studies have documented large errors in online opt-in surveys due to the presence of so-called “bogus respondents.” These respondents do not answer questions sincerely; instead, they attempt to complete surveys with as little effort as possible to earn money or other rewards.

Studies have shown that bogus respondents can cause opt-in surveys to overestimate rare attitudes and behaviors, such as ingesting bleach to protect against COVID-19, belief in conspiracies like Pizzagate or support for political violence.

At Pew Research Center, we’ve found that this type of overreporting tends to be especially concentrated in estimates for adults under 30, as well as Hispanic adults. Bogus respondents may be identifying this way in order to bypass screening questions that might otherwise prevent them from receiving a reward, though the precise reasons are difficult to pin down. Whatever the underlying cause, the result can be unreliable estimates for those groups.

*****

In the context of what we’ve learned from our investigations into opt-in polls, we took particular notice of a recent online opt-in survey that had a startling finding about Holocaust denial among young Americans. The survey, fielded in December 2023, reported that 20% of U.S. adults under 30 agree with the statement, “The Holocaust is a myth.” This alarming finding received widespread attention from the news media and on social networks.

From a survey science perspective, the finding deserved a closer look. It raised both of the red flags in the research literature about bogus respondents: It focused on a rare attitude (Holocaust denial), and it involved a subgroup frequently “infiltrated” by bogus respondents (young adults).

*****

We attempted to replicate the opt-in poll’s findings in our own survey, fielded in mid-January 2024 on Pew Research Center’s American Trends Panel.

A dot plot showing that opt-in poll and probability-based surveys produce very different results on young adults’ views of the Holocaust, abortion.
Unlike the December opt-in survey, our survey panel is recruited by mail – rather than online – using probability-based sampling. And in fact, our findings were quite different.

Rather than 20%, we found that 3% of adults under 30 agree with the statement “The Holocaust is a myth.” (This percentage is the same for every other age group as well.) Had this been the original result, it is unlikely that it would have generated the same kind of media attention on one of the most sensitive possible topics.

image.thumb.png.6b7f450f5d2c2a3bf9ee8906780e27cb.png

 

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15 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

For sure, the youth are killing it by fracturing consensus reality, I’m sure it’s a cause to celebrate. (Check the date on this, too).

image.thumb.jpeg.0a7baaa3f94045c2e793bf00c75cf3cd.jpeg

 

That's crazy. We really need to teach history. Fuck, it was only 75 years ago.

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1 minute ago, Bevo said:

 

That's crazy. We really need to teach history. Fuck, it was only 75 years ago.

We must've posted at the same time. Go up one post. It was likely a bad poll. 

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2 minutes ago, bolverk said:

Probably a bad opt-in poll.

https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2024/03/05/online-opt-in-polls-can-produce-misleading-results-especially-for-young-people-and-hispanic-adults/

Online opt-in polls have become increasingly popular. And for some purposes, such as election polling, they can perform similarly to more traditional survey approaches.

There is evidence, however, that the online environment in which they operate is somewhat unstable.

In particular, several recent studies have documented large errors in online opt-in surveys due to the presence of so-called “bogus respondents.” These respondents do not answer questions sincerely; instead, they attempt to complete surveys with as little effort as possible to earn money or other rewards.

Studies have shown that bogus respondents can cause opt-in surveys to overestimate rare attitudes and behaviors, such as ingesting bleach to protect against COVID-19, belief in conspiracies like Pizzagate or support for political violence.

At Pew Research Center, we’ve found that this type of overreporting tends to be especially concentrated in estimates for adults under 30, as well as Hispanic adults. Bogus respondents may be identifying this way in order to bypass screening questions that might otherwise prevent them from receiving a reward, though the precise reasons are difficult to pin down. Whatever the underlying cause, the result can be unreliable estimates for those groups.

*****

In the context of what we’ve learned from our investigations into opt-in polls, we took particular notice of a recent online opt-in survey that had a startling finding about Holocaust denial among young Americans. The survey, fielded in December 2023, reported that 20% of U.S. adults under 30 agree with the statement, “The Holocaust is a myth.” This alarming finding received widespread attention from the news media and on social networks.

From a survey science perspective, the finding deserved a closer look. It raised both of the red flags in the research literature about bogus respondents: It focused on a rare attitude (Holocaust denial), and it involved a subgroup frequently “infiltrated” by bogus respondents (young adults).

*****

We attempted to replicate the opt-in poll’s findings in our own survey, fielded in mid-January 2024 on Pew Research Center’s American Trends Panel.

A dot plot showing that opt-in poll and probability-based surveys produce very different results on young adults’ views of the Holocaust, abortion.
Unlike the December opt-in survey, our survey panel is recruited by mail – rather than online – using probability-based sampling. And in fact, our findings were quite different.

Rather than 20%, we found that 3% of adults under 30 agree with the statement “The Holocaust is a myth.” (This percentage is the same for every other age group as well.) Had this been the original result, it is unlikely that it would have generated the same kind of media attention on one of the most sensitive possible topics.

image.thumb.png.6b7f450f5d2c2a3bf9ee8906780e27cb.png

 

No, it wasn’t but keep on looking. You’re a smart person and I keep being surprised at how badly you’re seeking to reject data that you don’t like on this issue. 

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/16/holocaust-us-adults-study
 

Again, look at the date. 
 

image.thumb.jpeg.1d9464ef79ea04463ef5e719ead415a5.jpeg

 

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6 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

No, it wasn’t but keep on looking. You’re a smart person and I keep being surprised at how badly you’re seeking to reject data that you don’t like on this issue. 

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/16/holocaust-us-adults-study
 

Again, look at the date. 
 

image.thumb.jpeg.1d9464ef79ea04463ef5e719ead415a5.jpeg

 

I don't see what's so significant about the date. The Pew article is even more recent if that's what you're getting at. The folks who put together the survey you're citing have a very clear agenda. Further, I don't see any information about their methodology, such as how they ask the question, which can make a big difference in how they answer.

For example: https://ropercenter.cornell.edu/sites/default/files/2018-07/55003.pdf

image.thumb.png.94e6f20368627c69d48c5f7dcfb74eed.png

 

You can either believe a very trusted, widely known polling organization with no clear bias, such as Pew, or not. I've given you the information to make a reasoned judgment. 

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5 minutes ago, bolverk said:

I don't see what's so significant about the date. The Pew article is even more recent if that's what you're getting at. The folks who put together the survey you're citing have a very clear agenda. Further, I don't see any information about their methodology, such as how they ask the question, which can make a big difference in how they answer.

For example: https://ropercenter.cornell.edu/sites/default/files/2018-07/55003.pdf

image.thumb.png.94e6f20368627c69d48c5f7dcfb74eed.png

 

You can either believe a very trusted, widely known polling organization with no clear bias, such as Pew, or not. I've given you the information to make a reasoned judgment. 

They do have an agenda and I’ve worked closely with them. They’re quite good. What agenda did you think they had? 
 

image.thumb.jpeg.ddff43807d25aca80081746c117ff8ef.jpeg
 

I am pretty confident that if in 2020  had claimed or suggested that a well known organization dedicated to returning Jewish property stolen during the Holocaust was ginning up sham polls about Holocaust education, your eyebrows would have raised.  You might have even wondered about my own motivation for suggesting it.  
 

But after October 23  you rolled right into that theory. Easiest thing in the world and seems right to talk about. You’re telling on yourself more than the data or organziation. 
 

The methodology was 450 landline, 450 mobile, and 450 online non-paid, FWIW and you can read the question for yourself. 

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4 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

They do have an agenda and I’ve worked closely with them. They’re quite good. What agenda did you think they had? 
 

image.thumb.jpeg.ddff43807d25aca80081746c117ff8ef.jpeg
 

I am pretty confident that if in 2020  had claimed or suggested that a well known organization dedicated to returning Jewish property stolen during the Holocaust was ginning up sham polls about Holocaust education, your eyebrows would have raised.  You might have even wondered about my own motivation for suggesting it.  
 

But after October 23  you rolled right into that theory. Easiest thing in the world and seems right to talk about. You’re telling on yourself more than the data or organziation. 
 

The methodology was 450 landline, 450 mobile, and 450 online non-paid, FWIW and you can read the question for yourself. 

I'm not accusing them of putting out a sham poll, but they are not a professional polling outfit whose agenda, by the way, I fully support. I just don't buy the results -- it's way too high. I've got a kid in her early 20s, and she is very aware of the Holocaust. I'll ask her to chat with her friends to see if any of them are deniers.

  • Pew says Holocaust denial in that age group is 3% when the polling is done properly. If not, you get 20% (2023).
  • The Roper Center at Cornell for Public Opinion Research shows that if you ask the question properly, you get 8%. If not, you get 22% (1994).
  • The Claims Conference says 23% (2020).

I'm seeing a pattern here. 

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6 minutes ago, bolverk said:

I'm not accusing them of putting out a sham poll, but they are not a professional polling outfit whose agenda, by the way, I fully support. I just don't buy the results -- it's way too high. I've got a kid in her early 20s, and she is very aware of the Holocaust. I'll ask her to chat with her friends to see if any of them are deniers.

  • Pew says Holocaust denial in that age group is 3% when the polling is done properly. If not, you get 20% (2023).
  • The Roper Center at Cornell for Public Opinion Research shows that if you ask the question properly, you get 8%. If not, you get 22% (1994).
  • The Claims Conference says 23% (2020).

I'm seeing a pattern here. 

So basically, it’s just “vibes are off.” 
 

Here is the question and the responses (all adults vs. Millenials). As you can see it’s “not sure” that is the big problem. 
 

image.thumb.jpeg.9ed9240185c328ab2e767cf708564617.jpeg

I find it interesting that your go-to was “agenda and/or the poll must be bad” before bothering to dig into it more. 
 

https://www.claimscon.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Holocaust-Knowledge-and-Awareness-Study-–-Topline-Results-1-1.pdf

Here is the firm that did the research. 
 

https://schoencooperman.com

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9 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

So basically, it’s just “vibes are off.” 
 

Here is the question and the responses (all adults vs. Millenials). As you can see it’s “not sure” that is the big problem. 
 

image.thumb.jpeg.9ed9240185c328ab2e767cf708564617.jpeg

I find it interesting that your go-to was “agenda and/or the poll must be bad” before bothering to dig into it more. 
 

https://www.claimscon.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Holocaust-Knowledge-and-Awareness-Study-–-Topline-Results-1-1.pdf

Here is the firm that did the research. 
 

https://schoencooperman.com

The headline in the original image you posted is so misleading that its essentially just sensationalist click bait. 

Quote

“According to survey of adults 18-30, 23% said they believed the Holocaust was a myth, had been exaggerated or they weren’t sure”

Actually, by those criteria the number is 35%...but I love that "myth" is first in-line whereas in the actual poll that's 1%.  

It's much more likely that people answering "not sure" are talking about whether the number of dead was 6m or some lower number.... say 5m... not that they think Jews weren't victims of the Holocaust.  

At minimum it's a disingenuous post.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Bevo said:

That is wild that your daughter was so close to that event. My parents were near Kent State when the National Guard killed those four students. My mom was also near Philadelphia, MS when Chaney, Goodman, and Schwerner were killed by the KKK in 1964.

I hope most understand that they might get arrested or fired for fighting with the police. There are actions and there are consequences. And there is a time and a place for everything.

As for the event itself. Personally, I believe that Palestinians should live in peace in the US and Jews should live in peace in the US. So, I guess that makes me more libertarian in that respect.

Being rigid in you right to protest anywhere and any place without police intervention and being in support in asking Hertzel to step down, I assume that when protests again happen during the DNC convention, you will be pissed that police block the protestors,and will ask for the head of the DNC, which I assume is Biden, to step down. I get your position, but I am actually okay with using the police to keep the Palestinian protestors away from the DNC.

 

The right is for peaceable protest, and within that structure, no I do not concede arrest is acceptable. Defending oneself against attack is another right I think we both insist decides legality of one’s actions, and not perceived attack by a bitch ass imagination. 

If the national guard attacks peaceful protestors, then Biden is no longer our standard.

Edited by Willfully Horn
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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

The headline in the original image you posted is so misleading that its essentially just sensationalist click bait. 

Actually, by those criteria the number is 35%...but I love that "myth" is first in-line whereas in the actual poll that's 1%.  

It's much more likely that people answering "not sure" are talking about whether the number of dead was 6m or some lower number.... say 5m... not that they think Jews weren't victims of the Holocaust.  

At minimum it's a disingenuous post.

I’ll try to stay away from notorious clickbait farm (checks notes) “The Guardian.” 
 

image.thumb.jpeg.56014093cd74c8a9f09ba95c590e7826.jpeg

Edited by 956 Worldwide
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2 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

I’ll try to stay away from notorious clickbait farm (checks notes) “The Guardian.” 

You're right, there is no way a news organization funded by advertising would ever put up a sensationalized headline for clicks.  My bad.

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  • bolverk changed the title to Worldwide Israel/Palestine War Protests Thread

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