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Israel should've never let the illegal settlements take place in the West Bank. These people are their version of our shit-stirring "sovereign citizen" and QAnon-types, but likely much more dangerous.

This is the shit that I wish people in the US would understand. There is a dangerous movement in Israel that's taking over their politics with very illiberal ideals and who want to eventually ethnically cleanse the "Holy Land" of all Palestinians.

What's worse, we have Americans and ostensibly educated posters on this very site who are openly supportive of this war crime. I don't think I've seen a single poster that supports terrorism and war crimes committed by Hamas.

 

Quote

 

Extremist settler group threatens life of the IDF Central Command's general for trying to tamp down settler violence in the West Bank. 

“The steps that the Central Command chief has led have caused a real escalation in the criticism against him, which is presented as him having Jewish blood on his hands, to the point of deciding on a din rodef against him,” Bar reportedly added, referring to a Jewish religious principle allowing the extrajudicial killing of individuals who pose a danger to others. A similar decree was allegedly issued regarding former prime minister Yitzhak Rabin in the months before his assassination by a Jewish extremist in 1995.

*****

 

The right-wing Israel National News outlet, which backs the settler movement, reported at the time that a small number of “Wanted” posters about Fox had been put up across the West Bank by a group calling itself the “Freedom Fighters of Israel.”

The posters declared that Fox was wanted for “abandoning” the [Jewish] residents of the West Bank, “the murder of 1,400 Jews in the south of our holy country, and abuse of Jews by handing out administrative detention orders.” They further said that as a result, din rodef applied to Fox.

*****

Last month Channel 12 reported that Fox was given close security protection due to the extremist right-wing campaign against him.

Since the start of the war, there has also been an uptick in violent attacks by extremist settlers against Palestinians in the West Bank, which has been noted by human rights groups in Israel and abroad.

Israel has come under increasing pressure from its allies to rein in settler violence, which has soared since the Hamas terror group’s October 7 massacre. Last week France joined the US and Britain in sanctioning Jewish extremist settlers.

 

 

Meanwhile, Likud member and former Israeli ambassador to the UN, Danny Danon, who's positioning himself to head the party, along with Smotrich, is advocating for the "voluntary migration" of Palestinian refugees to other countries for cash under the guise of humanitarian aid

I think we all know about Smotrich at this point, but here's more on some of Danon's views:

image.thumb.png.71306974be0939093c94f1e77a0d7afd.png

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The below is from the Atlantic, a magazine I subscribe and respect. 

image.png.614bc5c355ef100f6bb4150484f9515a.png

Naive at best. Disappointing to say the least.

Comparing Gaza to our own personal fiasco in Iraq in remarkably inapt. The US at least had a goal in Iraq to depose the leader of an organized nation state in hopes of creating wildfire of liberal democracy in the MidEast. (More cynical reasoning was to allow certain commercial entities to exploit a conquered Iraq while the tight-with-taxpayer-money GOP administration sent billions in cash on pallets with intentionally incompetent accounting services hired to track it...okay, I'll stop.) Oh, and of course, all the WMDs pointed at us.

The US intention was not to level every structure in that country. We killed tons of civilians which amounts pretty much to murder in an unworthy cause, but even I won't say we really intended to do that. It was just a consequence of a disastrous policy choice.

The top paragraph describing Israels destruction of Gaza as a "war" is frightfully dishonest. It's an obliteration of all shelter and sustenance that would support the indigenous people. It's brutal conquest defended by a bloody attack that responded to a bloody oppressive regime. 

Israeli leaders aren't wringing their hands in worry of getting bogged down or how they'll make a good end to this. They are attaining their ends. They are Sherman marching to the sea inflicting as much pain and death and damage as they can to completely demoralize and crush the citizen Palestinians of Gaza.

Someone asks why should we as Americans care? Anastasis gives a broader answer than I would, but I agree in the important main point: we're attached to this. We've stayed attached to this. We rolled up the carrier and pledged support. We're being incredibly weak and wishy-washy in the face of these atrocities.

The silly pearl-clutching in the passage I quote above is part of the problem. We don't need to draw an inapt parallel to make the whole thing appear to be more digestible. It's not chocolate; it's a maggot-infested soggy sticky turd that I don't want in my mouth, on my clothes, or on my hands.

The US should only be operating to provide humanitarian assistance to the people Israel is putting to the sword. I would have us announce that intention and give the warning to anyone who might interfere that we would see that as an act of war. Nobody wants to play the slaughter game with us.

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1 hour ago, bolverk said:

Israel should've never let the illegal settlements take place in the West Bank. These people are their version of our shit-stirring "sovereign citizen" and QAnon-types, but likely much more dangerous.

This is the shit that I wish people in the US would understand. There is a dangerous movement in Israel that's taking over their politics with very illiberal ideals and who want to eventually ethnically cleanse the "Holy Land" of all Palestinians.

What's worse, we have Americans and ostensibly educated posters on this very site who are openly supportive of this war crime. I don't think I've seen a single poster that supports terrorism and war crimes committed by Hamas.

 

 

Meanwhile, Likud member and former Israeli ambassador to the UN, Danny Danon, who's positioning himself to head the party, along with Smotrich, is advocating for the "voluntary migration" of Palestinian refugees to other countries for cash under the guise of humanitarian aid

I think we all know about Smotrich at this point, but here's more on some of Danon's views:

image.thumb.png.71306974be0939093c94f1e77a0d7afd.png

Great post. I think one way we have so many Americans being ok with supporting and financing war crimes is through the use of atrocity porn to dehumanize Palestinians and through random Twitter video clips of protestors to frame Palestinian supporters as “others.”  

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23 minutes ago, Bullneck said:

This ain't going to get you where you want go.  "I'll break the rules and inconvenience total strangers who have paid money for tickets, parking, hotels, etc."

This adds to the confirmation bias.

 

Yeah, that's going to win over no one. Hell, I support "the cause," allowing Palestinians full autonomy over the West Bank and Gaza as a truly independent country, but even I'd be pissed about trying to catch a flight. It's one thing to march and chant slogans, but don't make me get stranded in fucking Queens.

5 minutes ago, GW Hayduke said:

Great post. I think one way we have so many Americans being ok with supporting and financing war crimes is through the use of atrocity porn to dehumanize Palestinians and through random Twitter video clips of protestors to frame Palestinian supporters as “others.”  

In fairness, some of the protestors have been idiots and absolutely give ammunition to those who have defended the blockade (and now destruction) of Gaza and also the occupation of the West Bank. While I understand the impulse to support an ally, I don't understand turning a blind eye to documented war crimes as defined by international law established by Western democracies.

My not supporting terrorism by Hamas and other radical Islamic groups doesn't mean I have to support war crimes by Israel's government and extremist settlers. Still, injustice is unjust, and non-Jewish people from the "Holy Land" deserve their freedoms too.

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Israel’s wartime unity faces a challenge in a looming court decision.

Israel’s fragile political unity in wartime faced a threat on Thursday after an Israeli television channel reported on what it said was a leaked draft of a Supreme Court decision to strike down a key part of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s divisive plan to overhaul the judiciary.

The looming ruling by Israel’s top court — expected no later than mid-January — could upend the emergency government formed by Mr. Netanyahu and some of his opponents after the Oct. 7 Hamas-led terrorist attacks. It could also set off a constitutional crisis should Mr. Netanyahu’s government defy the court’s decision.

Israel’s Channel 12 broadcaster reported on Wednesday night that a slim majority of the court — eight of 15 judges — are set to overturn a law passed in July that stripped Israel’s Supreme Court of the power to overturn government actions and appointments it deems “unreasonable.” Mr. Netanyahu’s right-wing governing coalition had passed the law in an effort to remove what it said was the court’s ability to overrule the will of the majority.

The law was part of Mr. Netanyahu’s wider plan to weaken the country’s judiciary, which divided the country and led hundreds of thousands of Israelis to stage months of street protests. Opponents, including Israel’s chief justice and attorney general, said the plan — if fully carried out — would deal a fatal blow to the country’s separation of powers.

The dispute posed one of the gravest domestic political crises Israel had faced in the 75 years since the nation’s founding. But it faded to the background after the Hamas attacks, in which roughly 1,200 people were killed and more than 240 were taken hostage to Gaza, according to the Israeli authorities.

Four days after the attack, Mr. Netanyahu formed a wartime government with opponents including Benny Gantz, one of his chief rivals and the leader of the opposition National Unity alliance, who opposed the judicial overhaul.

The crisis over the judicial changes was a proxy for deeper rifts over Israel’s future. Secular and liberal Israelis view the Supreme Court as a bulwark in a country that is becoming more conservative and religious.

The New York Times has not obtained a copy of the leaked decision, and Channel 12 did not publish the full document. At a hearing on the matter in September, questions and statements by the judges indicated that several had concerns about the law.

News of the leak prompted a furor from Mr. Netanyahu’s hard-line coalition allies, who assailed any effort by the justices to strike down the legislation while the country is at war.

“I call on the Supreme Court and its judges to come to their senses,” said Simcha Rothman, one of the architects of the judicial overhaul in Parliament, adding that the justices should “avoid creating unnecessary discord among the people.”

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Israel should've never let the illegal settlements take place in the West Bank. These people are their version of our shit-stirring "sovereign citizen" and QAnon-types, but likely much more dangerous.
This is the shit that I wish people in the US would understand. There is a dangerous movement in Israel that's taking over their politics with very illiberal ideals and who want to eventually ethnically cleanse the "Holy Land" of all Palestinians.
What's worse, we have Americans and ostensibly educated posters on this very site who are openly supportive of this war crime. I don't think I've seen a single poster that supports terrorism and war crimes committed by Hamas.
 
 
Extremist settler group threatens life of the IDF Central Command's general for trying to tamp down settler violence in the West Bank. 
“The steps that the Central Command chief has led have caused a real escalation in the criticism against him, which is presented as him having Jewish blood on his hands, to the point of deciding on a din rodef against him,” Bar reportedly added, referring to a Jewish religious principle allowing the extrajudicial killing of individuals who pose a danger to others. A similar decree was allegedly issued regarding former prime minister Yitzhak Rabin in the months before his assassination by a Jewish extremist in 1995.
*****
 
The right-wing Israel National News outlet, which backs the settler movement, reported at the time that a small number of “Wanted” posters about Fox had been put up across the West Bank by a group calling itself the “Freedom Fighters of Israel.”
The posters declared that Fox was wanted for “abandoning” the [Jewish] residents of the West Bank, “the murder of 1,400 Jews in the south of our holy country, and abuse of Jews by handing out administrative detention orders.” They further said that as a result, din rodef applied to Fox.
*****
Last month Channel 12 reported that Fox was given close security protection due to the extremist right-wing campaign against him.
Since the start of the war, there has also been an uptick in violent attacks by extremist settlers against Palestinians in the West Bank, which has been noted by human rights groups in Israel and abroad.
Israel has come under increasing pressure from its allies to rein in settler violence, which has soared since the Hamas terror group’s October 7 massacre. Last week France joined the US and Britain in sanctioning Jewish extremist settlers.
 
 
Meanwhile, Likud member and former Israeli ambassador to the UN, Danny Danon, who's positioning himself to head the party, along with Smotrich, is advocating for the "voluntary migration" of Palestinian refugees to other countries for cash under the guise of humanitarian aid
I think we all know about Smotrich at this point, but here's more on some of Danon's views:
image.thumb.png.71306974be0939093c94f1e77a0d7afd.png

I think the settler issues is a bit more complicated than some make it out to be. And there is a tendency to lump them as a monolith as well.
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11 hours ago, totallynotabuttpirate said:

In the ultimate "both sides" conflict of our generation, it's comforting to know that Analstasis can always be counted on to stan away. 

Great contribution to the thread, you shit posting hack.

11 hours ago, totallynotabuttpirate said:

In the ultimate "both sides" conflict of our generation, it's comforting to know that Analstasis can always be counted on to stan away. 

Great contribution to the thread, you shit posting hack.

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14 hours ago, Brian Fantana said:

Great contribution to the thread, you shit posting hack.

Great contribution to the thread, you shit posting hack.

 

Oh Hi! Stupid Tech cunt. Here's a good read you might enjoy. Maybe imagine it was one of your mother/sister/wife etc. But cool cool, I'm sure the IDF is doing the same thing right? 

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/28/world/middleeast/oct-7-attacks-hamas-israel-sexual-violence.html

Spoiler

‘Screams Without Words’: How Hamas Weaponized Sexual Violence on Oct. 7

A Times investigation uncovered new details showing a pattern of rape, mutilation and extreme brutality against women in the attacks on Israel.

Dec. 28, 2023

Israel-Hamas War

By Jeffrey GettlemanAnat Schwartz and Adam Sella

Photographs by Avishag Shaar-Yashuv

Jeffrey Gettleman, Anat Schwartz and Adam Sella reported from across Israel and interviewed more than 150 people.

  •  

At first, she was known simply as “the woman in the black dress.”

In a grainy video, you can see her, lying on her back, dress torn, legs spread, vagina exposed. Her face is burned beyond recognition and her right hand covers her eyes.

The video was shot in the early hours of Oct. 8 by a woman searching for a missing friend at the site of the rave in southern Israel where, the day before, Hamas terrorists massacred hundreds of young Israelis.

The video went viral, with thousands of people responding, desperate to know if the woman in the black dress was their missing friend, sister or daughter.

One family knew exactly who she was — Gal Abdush, mother of two from a working-class town in central Israel, who disappeared from the rave that night with her husband.

As the terrorists closed in on her, trapped on a highway in a line of cars of people trying to flee the party, she sent one final WhatsApp message to her family: “You don’t understand.”

Based largely on the video evidence — which was verified by The New York Times — Israeli police officials said they believed that Ms. Abdush was raped, and she has become a symbol of the horrors visited upon Israeli women and girls during the Oct. 7 attacks.

Israeli officials say that everywhere Hamas terrorists struck — the rave, the military bases along the Gaza border and the kibbutzim — they brutalized women.

A two-month investigation by The Times uncovered painful new details, establishing that the attacks against women were not isolated events but part of a broader pattern of gender-based violence on Oct. 7.

Relying on video footage, photographs, GPS data from mobile phones and interviews with more than 150 people, including witnesses, medical personnel, soldiers and rape counselors, The Times identified at least seven locations where Israeli women and girls appear to have been sexually assaulted or mutilated.

Four witnesses described in graphic detail seeing women raped and killed at two different places along Route 232, the same highway where Ms. Abdush’s half-naked body was found sprawled on the road at a third location.

And The Times interviewed several soldiers and volunteer medics who together described finding more than 30 bodies of women and girls in and around the rave site and in two kibbutzim in a similar state as Ms. Abdush’s — legs spread, clothes torn off, signs of abuse in their genital areas.

 

A camp area on Oct. 11 at the rave site in southern Israel.Sergey Ponomarev for The New York Times

Many of the accounts are difficult to bear, and the visual evidence is disturbing to see.

The Times viewed photographs of one woman’s corpse that emergency responders discovered in the rubble of a besieged kibbutz with dozens of nails driven into her thighs and groin.

The Times also viewed a video, provided by the Israeli military, showing two dead Israeli soldiers at a base near Gaza who appeared to have been shot directly in their vaginas.

Hamas has denied Israel’s accusations of sexual violence. Israeli activists have been outraged that the United Nations Secretary General, António Guterres, and the agency U.N. Women did not acknowledge the many accusations until weeks after the attacks.

Investigators with Israel’s top national police unit, Lahav 433, have been steadily gathering evidence but they have not put a number on how many women were raped, saying that most are dead — and buried — and that they will never know. No survivors have spoken publicly.

The Israeli police have acknowledged that, during the shock and confusion of Oct. 7, the deadliest day in Israeli history, they were not focused on collecting semen samples from women’s bodies, requesting autopsies or closely examining crime scenes. At that moment, the authorities said, they were intent on repelling Hamas and identifying the dead.

 

Ms. Abdush’s sister showing one of the last messages Ms. Abdush sent on Oct. 7.

A combination of chaos, enormous grief and Jewish religious duties meant that many bodies were buried as quickly as possible. Most were never examined, and in some cases, like at the rave scene, where more than 360 people were slaughtered in a few hours, the bodies were hauled away by the truckload.

That has left the Israeli authorities at a loss to fully explain to families what happened to their loved ones in their final moments. Ms. Abdush’s relatives, for instance, never received a death certificate. They are still searching for answers.

In cases of widespread sexual violence during a war, it is not unusual to have limited forensic evidence, experts said.

“Armed conflict is so chaotic,” said Adil Haque, a Rutgers law professor and war crimes expert. “People are more focused on their safety than on building a criminal case down the road.”

Very often, he said, sex crime cases will be prosecuted years later on the basis of testimony from victims and witnesses.

“The eyewitness might not even know the name of the victim,” he added. “But if they can testify as, ‘I saw a woman being raped by this armed group,’ that can be enough.”

‘Screams without words’

Sapir, a 24-year-old accountant, has become one of the Israeli police’s key witnesses. She does not want to be fully identified, saying she would be hounded for the rest of her life if her last name were revealed.

She attended the rave with several friends and provided investigators with graphic testimony. She also spoke to The Times. In a two-hour interview outside a cafe in southern Israel, she recounted seeing groups of heavily armed gunmen rape and kill at least five women.

She said that at 8 a.m. on Oct. 7, she was hiding under the low branches of a bushy tamarisk tree, just off Route 232, about four miles southwest of the party. She had been shot in the back. She felt faint. She covered herself in dry grass and lay as still as she could.

 

Volunteerwith an emergency response team at the Kfar Aza kibbutz this month. The kibbutz was among the places attacked on Oct. 7.

About 15 meters from her hiding place, she said, she saw motorcycles, cars and trucks pulling up. She said that she saw “about 100 men,” most of them dressed in military fatigues and combat boots, a few in dark sweatsuits, getting in and out of the vehicles. She said the men congregated along the road and passed between them assault rifles, grenades, small missiles — and badly wounded women.

“It was like an assembly point,” she said.

The first victim she said she saw was a young woman with copper-color hair, blood running down her back, pants pushed down to her knees. One man pulled her by the hair and made her bend over. Another penetrated her, Sapir said, and every time she flinched, he plunged a knife into her back.

She said she then watched another woman “shredded into pieces.” While one terrorist raped her, she said, another pulled out a box cutter and sliced off her breast.

“One continues to rape her, and the other throws her breast to someone else, and they play with it, throw it, and it falls on the road,” Sapir said.

She said the men sliced her face and then the woman fell out of view. Around the same time, she said, she saw three other women raped and terrorists carrying the severed heads of three more women.

Sapir provided photographs of her hiding place and her wounds, and police officials have stood by her testimony and released a video of her, with her face blurred, recounting some of what she saw.

Yura Karol, a 22-year-old security consultant, said he was hiding in the same spot, and he can be seen in one of Sapir’s photos. He and Sapir were part of a group of friends who had met up at the party. In an interview, Mr. Karol said he barely lifted his head to look at the road but he also described seeing a woman raped and killed.

Since that day, Sapir said, she has struggled with a painful rash that spread across her torso, and she can barely sleep, waking up at night, heart pounding, covered in sweat.

“That day, I became an animal,” she said. “I was emotionally detached, sharp, just the adrenaline of survival. I looked at all this as if I was photographing them with my eyes, not forgetting any detail. I told myself: I should remember everything.”

That same morning, along Route 232 but in a different location about a mile southwest of the party area, Raz Cohen — a young Israeli who had also attended the rave and had worked recently in the Democratic Republic of Congo training Congolese soldiers — said that he was hiding in a dried-up streambed. It provided some cover from the assailants combing the area and shooting anyone they found, he said in an hour-and-a-half interview in a Tel Aviv restaurant.

 

Raz Cohen, a security consultant, survived the Oct. 7 attacks by hiding in a dried-up streambed.

Maybe 40 yards in front of him, he recalled, a white van pulled up and its doors flew open.

He said he then saw five men, wearing civilian clothes, all carrying knives and one carrying a hammer, dragging a woman across the ground. She was young, naked and screaming.

“They all gather around her,” Mr. Cohen said. “She’s standing up. They start raping her. I saw the men standing in a half circle around her. One penetrates her. She screams. I still remember her voice, screams without words.”

“Then one of them raises a knife,” he said, “and they just slaughtered her.”

Shoam Gueta, one of Mr. Cohen’s friends and a fashion designer, said the two were hiding together in the streambed. He said he saw at least four men step out of the van and attack the woman, who ended up “between their legs.” He said that they were “talking, giggling and shouting,” and that one of them stabbed her with a knife repeatedly, “literally butchering her.”

Hours later, the first wave of volunteer emergency medical technicians arrived at the rave site. In interviews, four of them said that they discovered bodies of dead women with their legs spread and underwear missing — some with their hands tied by rope and zipties — in the party area, along the road, in the parking area and in the open fields around the rave site.

Jamal Waraki, a volunteer medic with the nonprofit ZAKA emergency response team, said he could not get out of his head a young woman in a rawhide vest found between the main stage and the bar.

“Her hands were tied behind her back,” he said. “She was bent over, half naked, her underwear rolled down below her knees.”

Yinon Rivlin, a member of the rave’s production team who lost two brothers in the attacks, said that after hiding from the killers, he emerged from a ditch and made his way to the parking area, east of the party, along Route 232, looking for survivors.

Near the highway, he said, he found the body of a young woman, on her stomach, no pants or underwear, legs spread apart. He said her vagina area appeared to have been sliced open, “as if someone tore her apart.”

Similar discoveries were made in two kibbutzim, Be’eri and Kfar Aza. Eight volunteer medics and two Israeli soldiers told The Times that in at least six different houses, they had come across a total of at least 24 bodies of women and girls naked or half naked, some mutilated, others tied up, and often alone.

A paramedic in an Israeli commando unit said that he had found the bodies of two teenage girls in a room in Be’eri.

One was lying on her side, he said, boxer shorts ripped, bruises by her groin. The other was sprawled on the floor face down, he said, pajama pants pulled to her knees, bottom exposed, semen smeared on her back.

Because his job was to look for survivors, he said, he kept moving and did not document the scene. Neighbors of the two girls killed — who were sisters, 13 and 16 — said their bodies had been found alone, separated from the rest of their family.

The Israeli military allowed the paramedic to speak with reporters on the condition that he not be identified because he serves in an elite unit.

Many of the dead were brought to the Shura military base, in central Israel, for identification. Here, too, witnesses said they saw signs of sexual violence.

Shari Mendes, an architect called up as a reserve soldier to help prepare the bodies of female soldiers for burial, said she had seen four with signs of sexual violence, including some with “a lot of blood in their pelvic areas.”

 

Shari Mendes, an architect who was called up as a reserve soldier to help handle the bodies of female troops, in a container used to hold bodies before their removal to a morgue at the Shura military base in central Israel.

A dentist, Captain Maayan, who worked at the same identification center, said that she had seen at least 10 bodies of female soldiers from Gaza observation posts with signs of sexual violence.

Captain Maayan asked to be identified only by her rank and surname because of the sensitivity of the subject. She said she had seen several bodies with cuts in their vaginas and underwear soaked in blood and one whose fingernails had been pulled out.

The investigation

The Israeli authorities have no shortage of video evidence from the Oct. 7 attacks. They have gathered hours of footage from Hamas body cameras, dashcams, security cameras and mobile phones showing Hamas terrorists killing civilians and many images of mutilated bodies.

But Moshe Fintzy, a deputy superintendent and senior spokesman of Israel’s national police, said, “We have zero autopsies, zero,” making an O with his right hand.

In the aftermath of the attack, police officials said, forensic examiners were dispatched to the Shura military base to help identify the hundreds of bodies — Israeli officials say around 1,200 people were killed that day.

The examiners worked quickly to give the agonized families of the missing a sense of closure and to determine, by a process of elimination, who was dead and who was being held hostage in Gaza.

According to Jewish tradition, funerals are held promptly. The result was that many bodies with signs of sexual abuse were put to rest without medical examinations, meaning that potential evidence now lies buried in the ground. International forensic experts said that it would be possible to recover some evidence from the corpses, but that it would be difficult.

Mr. Fintzy said Israeli security forces were still finding imagery that shows women were brutalized. Sitting at his desk at an imposing police building in Jerusalem, he swiped open his phone, tapped and produced the video of the two soldiers shot in the vagina, which he said was recorded by Hamas gunmen and recently recovered by Israeli soldiers.

A colleague sitting next to him, Mirit Ben Mayor, a police chief superintendent, said she believed that the brutality against women was a combination of two ferocious forces, “the hatred for Jews and the hatred for women.”

Some emergency medical workers now wish they had documented more of what they saw. In interviews, they said they had moved bodies, cut off zip ties and cleaned up scenes of carnage. Trying to be respectful to the dead, they inadvertently destroyed evidence.

Many volunteers working for ZAKA, the emergency response team, are religious Jews and operate under strict rules that command deep respect for the dead.

“I did not take pictures because we are not allowed to take pictures,” said Yossi Landau, a ZAKA volunteer. “In retrospect, I regret it.”

There are at least three women and one man who were sexually assaulted and survived, according to Gil Horev, a spokesman for Israel’s Ministry of Welfare and Social Affairs. “None of them has been willing to come physically for treatment,” he said. Two therapists said they were working with a woman who was gang raped at the rave and was in no condition to talk to investigators or reporters.

 

Yossi Landau, a volunteer with the nonprofit ZAKA emergency response team, said he had not taken pictures of the bodies because it was not allowed. “In retrospect, I regret it,” he added.

The trauma from sexual assault can be so heavy that sometimes survivors do not speak about it for years, several rape counselors said.

“Many people are looking for the golden evidence, of a woman who will testify about what happened to her. But don’t look for that, don’t put this pressure on this woman,” said Orit Sulitzeanu, executive director of the Association of Rape Crisis Centers in Israel. “The corpses tell the story.”

The woman in the black dress

One of the last images of Ms. Abdush alive — captured by a security camera mounted on her front door — shows her leaving home with her husband, Nagi, at 2:30 a.m. on Oct. 7 for the rave.

He was wearing jeans and a black T-shirt. She was dressed in a short black dress, a black shawl tied around her waist and combat boots. As she struts out, she takes a swig from a glass (her brother-in-law remembers it was Red Bull and vodka) and laughs.

You’ve got to live life like it’s your last moments. That was her motto, her sisters said.

At daybreak, hundreds of terrorists closed in on the party from several directions, blocking the highways leading out. The couple jumped into their Audi, dashing off a string of messages as they moved.

“We’re on the border,” Ms. Abdush wrote to her family. “We’re leaving.”

“Explosions.”

Her husband made his own calls to his family, leaving a final audio message for his brother, Nissim, at 7:44 a.m. “Take care of the kids,” he said. “I love you.”

Gunshots rang out, and the message stopped.

That night, Eden Wessely, a car mechanic, drove to the rave site with three friends and found Ms. Abdush sprawled half naked on the road next to her burned car, about nine miles north of the site. She did not see the body of Mr. Abdush.

 

Eden Wessely, a car mechanic, drove to the rave site looking for a missing friend but instead found Ms. Abdush sprawled half naked on the road next to her burned car.

She saw other burned cars and other bodies, and shot videos of several — hoping that they would help people to identify missing relatives. When she posted the video of the woman in the black dress on her Instagram story, she was deluged with messages.

“Hi, based on your description of the woman in the black dress, did she have blonde hair?” one message read.

“Eden, the woman you described with the black dress, do you remember the color of her eyes?” another said.

Some members of the Abdush family saw that video and another version of it filmed by one of Ms. Wessely’s friends. They immediately suspected that the body was Ms. Abdush, and based on the way her body was found, they feared that she might have been raped.

But they kept alive a flicker of hope that somehow, it wasn’t true.

The videos caught the eye of Israeli officials as well — very quickly after Oct. 7 they began gathering evidence of atrocities. They included footage of Ms. Abdush’s body in a presentation made to foreign governments and media organizations, using Ms. Abdush as a representation of violence committed against women that day.

 

A screenshot from a video showing Ms. Abdush’s body.Eden Wessely

A week after her body was found, three government social workers appeared at the gate of the family’s home in Kiryat Ekron, a small town in central Israel. They broke the news that Ms. Abdush, 34, had been found dead.

But the only document the family received was a one-page form letter from Israel’s president, Isaac Herzog, expressing his condolences and sending a hug. The body of Mr. Abdush, 35, was identified two days after his wife’s. It was badly burned and investigators determined who he was based on a DNA sample and his wedding ring.

The couple had been together since they were teenagers. To the family, it seems only yesterday that Mr. Abdush was heading off to work to fix water heaters, a bag of tools slung over his shoulder, and Ms. Abdush was cooking up mashed potatoes and schnitzel for their two sons, Eliav, 10, and Refael, 7.

The boys are now orphans. They were sleeping over at an aunt’s the night their parents were killed. Ms. Abdush’s mother and father have applied for permanent custody, and everyone is chipping in to help.

Night after night, Ms. Abdush’s mother, Eti Bracha, lies in bed with the boys until they drift off. A few weeks ago, she said she tried to quietly leave their bedroom when the younger boy stopped her.

“Grandma,” he said, “I want to ask you a question.”

“Honey,” she said, “you can ask anything.”

“Grandma, how did mom die?”

 

 

 

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6 minutes ago, totallynotabuttpirate said:

 

Oh Hi! Stupid Tech cunt. Here's a good ready you might enjoy. Maybe imagine it was one of your mother/sister/wife etc. But cool cool I'm sure the IDF is doing the same thing right? 

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/28/world/middleeast/oct-7-attacks-hamas-israel-sexual-violence.html

  Reveal hidden contents

‘Screams Without Words’: How Hamas Weaponized Sexual Violence on Oct. 7

A Times investigation uncovered new details showing a pattern of rape, mutilation and extreme brutality against women in the attacks on Israel.

Dec. 28, 2023

Israel-Hamas War

By Jeffrey GettlemanAnat Schwartz and Adam Sella

Photographs by Avishag Shaar-Yashuv

Jeffrey Gettleman, Anat Schwartz and Adam Sella reported from across Israel and interviewed more than 150 people.

  •  

At first, she was known simply as “the woman in the black dress.”

In a grainy video, you can see her, lying on her back, dress torn, legs spread, vagina exposed. Her face is burned beyond recognition and her right hand covers her eyes.

The video was shot in the early hours of Oct. 8 by a woman searching for a missing friend at the site of the rave in southern Israel where, the day before, Hamas terrorists massacred hundreds of young Israelis.

The video went viral, with thousands of people responding, desperate to know if the woman in the black dress was their missing friend, sister or daughter.

One family knew exactly who she was — Gal Abdush, mother of two from a working-class town in central Israel, who disappeared from the rave that night with her husband.

As the terrorists closed in on her, trapped on a highway in a line of cars of people trying to flee the party, she sent one final WhatsApp message to her family: “You don’t understand.”

Based largely on the video evidence — which was verified by The New York Times — Israeli police officials said they believed that Ms. Abdush was raped, and she has become a symbol of the horrors visited upon Israeli women and girls during the Oct. 7 attacks.

Israeli officials say that everywhere Hamas terrorists struck — the rave, the military bases along the Gaza border and the kibbutzim — they brutalized women.

A two-month investigation by The Times uncovered painful new details, establishing that the attacks against women were not isolated events but part of a broader pattern of gender-based violence on Oct. 7.

Relying on video footage, photographs, GPS data from mobile phones and interviews with more than 150 people, including witnesses, medical personnel, soldiers and rape counselors, The Times identified at least seven locations where Israeli women and girls appear to have been sexually assaulted or mutilated.

Four witnesses described in graphic detail seeing women raped and killed at two different places along Route 232, the same highway where Ms. Abdush’s half-naked body was found sprawled on the road at a third location.

And The Times interviewed several soldiers and volunteer medics who together described finding more than 30 bodies of women and girls in and around the rave site and in two kibbutzim in a similar state as Ms. Abdush’s — legs spread, clothes torn off, signs of abuse in their genital areas.

 

A camp area on Oct. 11 at the rave site in southern Israel.Sergey Ponomarev for The New York Times

Many of the accounts are difficult to bear, and the visual evidence is disturbing to see.

The Times viewed photographs of one woman’s corpse that emergency responders discovered in the rubble of a besieged kibbutz with dozens of nails driven into her thighs and groin.

The Times also viewed a video, provided by the Israeli military, showing two dead Israeli soldiers at a base near Gaza who appeared to have been shot directly in their vaginas.

Hamas has denied Israel’s accusations of sexual violence. Israeli activists have been outraged that the United Nations Secretary General, António Guterres, and the agency U.N. Women did not acknowledge the many accusations until weeks after the attacks.

Investigators with Israel’s top national police unit, Lahav 433, have been steadily gathering evidence but they have not put a number on how many women were raped, saying that most are dead — and buried — and that they will never know. No survivors have spoken publicly.

The Israeli police have acknowledged that, during the shock and confusion of Oct. 7, the deadliest day in Israeli history, they were not focused on collecting semen samples from women’s bodies, requesting autopsies or closely examining crime scenes. At that moment, the authorities said, they were intent on repelling Hamas and identifying the dead.

 

Ms. Abdush’s sister showing one of the last messages Ms. Abdush sent on Oct. 7.

A combination of chaos, enormous grief and Jewish religious duties meant that many bodies were buried as quickly as possible. Most were never examined, and in some cases, like at the rave scene, where more than 360 people were slaughtered in a few hours, the bodies were hauled away by the truckload.

That has left the Israeli authorities at a loss to fully explain to families what happened to their loved ones in their final moments. Ms. Abdush’s relatives, for instance, never received a death certificate. They are still searching for answers.

In cases of widespread sexual violence during a war, it is not unusual to have limited forensic evidence, experts said.

“Armed conflict is so chaotic,” said Adil Haque, a Rutgers law professor and war crimes expert. “People are more focused on their safety than on building a criminal case down the road.”

Very often, he said, sex crime cases will be prosecuted years later on the basis of testimony from victims and witnesses.

“The eyewitness might not even know the name of the victim,” he added. “But if they can testify as, ‘I saw a woman being raped by this armed group,’ that can be enough.”

‘Screams without words’

Sapir, a 24-year-old accountant, has become one of the Israeli police’s key witnesses. She does not want to be fully identified, saying she would be hounded for the rest of her life if her last name were revealed.

She attended the rave with several friends and provided investigators with graphic testimony. She also spoke to The Times. In a two-hour interview outside a cafe in southern Israel, she recounted seeing groups of heavily armed gunmen rape and kill at least five women.

She said that at 8 a.m. on Oct. 7, she was hiding under the low branches of a bushy tamarisk tree, just off Route 232, about four miles southwest of the party. She had been shot in the back. She felt faint. She covered herself in dry grass and lay as still as she could.

 

Volunteerwith an emergency response team at the Kfar Aza kibbutz this month. The kibbutz was among the places attacked on Oct. 7.

About 15 meters from her hiding place, she said, she saw motorcycles, cars and trucks pulling up. She said that she saw “about 100 men,” most of them dressed in military fatigues and combat boots, a few in dark sweatsuits, getting in and out of the vehicles. She said the men congregated along the road and passed between them assault rifles, grenades, small missiles — and badly wounded women.

“It was like an assembly point,” she said.

The first victim she said she saw was a young woman with copper-color hair, blood running down her back, pants pushed down to her knees. One man pulled her by the hair and made her bend over. Another penetrated her, Sapir said, and every time she flinched, he plunged a knife into her back.

She said she then watched another woman “shredded into pieces.” While one terrorist raped her, she said, another pulled out a box cutter and sliced off her breast.

“One continues to rape her, and the other throws her breast to someone else, and they play with it, throw it, and it falls on the road,” Sapir said.

She said the men sliced her face and then the woman fell out of view. Around the same time, she said, she saw three other women raped and terrorists carrying the severed heads of three more women.

Sapir provided photographs of her hiding place and her wounds, and police officials have stood by her testimony and released a video of her, with her face blurred, recounting some of what she saw.

Yura Karol, a 22-year-old security consultant, said he was hiding in the same spot, and he can be seen in one of Sapir’s photos. He and Sapir were part of a group of friends who had met up at the party. In an interview, Mr. Karol said he barely lifted his head to look at the road but he also described seeing a woman raped and killed.

Since that day, Sapir said, she has struggled with a painful rash that spread across her torso, and she can barely sleep, waking up at night, heart pounding, covered in sweat.

“That day, I became an animal,” she said. “I was emotionally detached, sharp, just the adrenaline of survival. I looked at all this as if I was photographing them with my eyes, not forgetting any detail. I told myself: I should remember everything.”

That same morning, along Route 232 but in a different location about a mile southwest of the party area, Raz Cohen — a young Israeli who had also attended the rave and had worked recently in the Democratic Republic of Congo training Congolese soldiers — said that he was hiding in a dried-up streambed. It provided some cover from the assailants combing the area and shooting anyone they found, he said in an hour-and-a-half interview in a Tel Aviv restaurant.

 

Raz Cohen, a security consultant, survived the Oct. 7 attacks by hiding in a dried-up streambed.

Maybe 40 yards in front of him, he recalled, a white van pulled up and its doors flew open.

He said he then saw five men, wearing civilian clothes, all carrying knives and one carrying a hammer, dragging a woman across the ground. She was young, naked and screaming.

“They all gather around her,” Mr. Cohen said. “She’s standing up. They start raping her. I saw the men standing in a half circle around her. One penetrates her. She screams. I still remember her voice, screams without words.”

“Then one of them raises a knife,” he said, “and they just slaughtered her.”

Shoam Gueta, one of Mr. Cohen’s friends and a fashion designer, said the two were hiding together in the streambed. He said he saw at least four men step out of the van and attack the woman, who ended up “between their legs.” He said that they were “talking, giggling and shouting,” and that one of them stabbed her with a knife repeatedly, “literally butchering her.”

Hours later, the first wave of volunteer emergency medical technicians arrived at the rave site. In interviews, four of them said that they discovered bodies of dead women with their legs spread and underwear missing — some with their hands tied by rope and zipties — in the party area, along the road, in the parking area and in the open fields around the rave site.

Jamal Waraki, a volunteer medic with the nonprofit ZAKA emergency response team, said he could not get out of his head a young woman in a rawhide vest found between the main stage and the bar.

“Her hands were tied behind her back,” he said. “She was bent over, half naked, her underwear rolled down below her knees.”

Yinon Rivlin, a member of the rave’s production team who lost two brothers in the attacks, said that after hiding from the killers, he emerged from a ditch and made his way to the parking area, east of the party, along Route 232, looking for survivors.

Near the highway, he said, he found the body of a young woman, on her stomach, no pants or underwear, legs spread apart. He said her vagina area appeared to have been sliced open, “as if someone tore her apart.”

Similar discoveries were made in two kibbutzim, Be’eri and Kfar Aza. Eight volunteer medics and two Israeli soldiers told The Times that in at least six different houses, they had come across a total of at least 24 bodies of women and girls naked or half naked, some mutilated, others tied up, and often alone.

A paramedic in an Israeli commando unit said that he had found the bodies of two teenage girls in a room in Be’eri.

One was lying on her side, he said, boxer shorts ripped, bruises by her groin. The other was sprawled on the floor face down, he said, pajama pants pulled to her knees, bottom exposed, semen smeared on her back.

Because his job was to look for survivors, he said, he kept moving and did not document the scene. Neighbors of the two girls killed — who were sisters, 13 and 16 — said their bodies had been found alone, separated from the rest of their family.

The Israeli military allowed the paramedic to speak with reporters on the condition that he not be identified because he serves in an elite unit.

Many of the dead were brought to the Shura military base, in central Israel, for identification. Here, too, witnesses said they saw signs of sexual violence.

Shari Mendes, an architect called up as a reserve soldier to help prepare the bodies of female soldiers for burial, said she had seen four with signs of sexual violence, including some with “a lot of blood in their pelvic areas.”

 

Shari Mendes, an architect who was called up as a reserve soldier to help handle the bodies of female troops, in a container used to hold bodies before their removal to a morgue at the Shura military base in central Israel.

A dentist, Captain Maayan, who worked at the same identification center, said that she had seen at least 10 bodies of female soldiers from Gaza observation posts with signs of sexual violence.

Captain Maayan asked to be identified only by her rank and surname because of the sensitivity of the subject. She said she had seen several bodies with cuts in their vaginas and underwear soaked in blood and one whose fingernails had been pulled out.

The investigation

The Israeli authorities have no shortage of video evidence from the Oct. 7 attacks. They have gathered hours of footage from Hamas body cameras, dashcams, security cameras and mobile phones showing Hamas terrorists killing civilians and many images of mutilated bodies.

But Moshe Fintzy, a deputy superintendent and senior spokesman of Israel’s national police, said, “We have zero autopsies, zero,” making an O with his right hand.

In the aftermath of the attack, police officials said, forensic examiners were dispatched to the Shura military base to help identify the hundreds of bodies — Israeli officials say around 1,200 people were killed that day.

The examiners worked quickly to give the agonized families of the missing a sense of closure and to determine, by a process of elimination, who was dead and who was being held hostage in Gaza.

According to Jewish tradition, funerals are held promptly. The result was that many bodies with signs of sexual abuse were put to rest without medical examinations, meaning that potential evidence now lies buried in the ground. International forensic experts said that it would be possible to recover some evidence from the corpses, but that it would be difficult.

Mr. Fintzy said Israeli security forces were still finding imagery that shows women were brutalized. Sitting at his desk at an imposing police building in Jerusalem, he swiped open his phone, tapped and produced the video of the two soldiers shot in the vagina, which he said was recorded by Hamas gunmen and recently recovered by Israeli soldiers.

A colleague sitting next to him, Mirit Ben Mayor, a police chief superintendent, said she believed that the brutality against women was a combination of two ferocious forces, “the hatred for Jews and the hatred for women.”

Some emergency medical workers now wish they had documented more of what they saw. In interviews, they said they had moved bodies, cut off zip ties and cleaned up scenes of carnage. Trying to be respectful to the dead, they inadvertently destroyed evidence.

Many volunteers working for ZAKA, the emergency response team, are religious Jews and operate under strict rules that command deep respect for the dead.

“I did not take pictures because we are not allowed to take pictures,” said Yossi Landau, a ZAKA volunteer. “In retrospect, I regret it.”

There are at least three women and one man who were sexually assaulted and survived, according to Gil Horev, a spokesman for Israel’s Ministry of Welfare and Social Affairs. “None of them has been willing to come physically for treatment,” he said. Two therapists said they were working with a woman who was gang raped at the rave and was in no condition to talk to investigators or reporters.

 

Yossi Landau, a volunteer with the nonprofit ZAKA emergency response team, said he had not taken pictures of the bodies because it was not allowed. “In retrospect, I regret it,” he added.

The trauma from sexual assault can be so heavy that sometimes survivors do not speak about it for years, several rape counselors said.

“Many people are looking for the golden evidence, of a woman who will testify about what happened to her. But don’t look for that, don’t put this pressure on this woman,” said Orit Sulitzeanu, executive director of the Association of Rape Crisis Centers in Israel. “The corpses tell the story.”

The woman in the black dress

One of the last images of Ms. Abdush alive — captured by a security camera mounted on her front door — shows her leaving home with her husband, Nagi, at 2:30 a.m. on Oct. 7 for the rave.

He was wearing jeans and a black T-shirt. She was dressed in a short black dress, a black shawl tied around her waist and combat boots. As she struts out, she takes a swig from a glass (her brother-in-law remembers it was Red Bull and vodka) and laughs.

You’ve got to live life like it’s your last moments. That was her motto, her sisters said.

At daybreak, hundreds of terrorists closed in on the party from several directions, blocking the highways leading out. The couple jumped into their Audi, dashing off a string of messages as they moved.

“We’re on the border,” Ms. Abdush wrote to her family. “We’re leaving.”

“Explosions.”

Her husband made his own calls to his family, leaving a final audio message for his brother, Nissim, at 7:44 a.m. “Take care of the kids,” he said. “I love you.”

Gunshots rang out, and the message stopped.

That night, Eden Wessely, a car mechanic, drove to the rave site with three friends and found Ms. Abdush sprawled half naked on the road next to her burned car, about nine miles north of the site. She did not see the body of Mr. Abdush.

 

Eden Wessely, a car mechanic, drove to the rave site looking for a missing friend but instead found Ms. Abdush sprawled half naked on the road next to her burned car.

She saw other burned cars and other bodies, and shot videos of several — hoping that they would help people to identify missing relatives. When she posted the video of the woman in the black dress on her Instagram story, she was deluged with messages.

“Hi, based on your description of the woman in the black dress, did she have blonde hair?” one message read.

“Eden, the woman you described with the black dress, do you remember the color of her eyes?” another said.

Some members of the Abdush family saw that video and another version of it filmed by one of Ms. Wessely’s friends. They immediately suspected that the body was Ms. Abdush, and based on the way her body was found, they feared that she might have been raped.

But they kept alive a flicker of hope that somehow, it wasn’t true.

The videos caught the eye of Israeli officials as well — very quickly after Oct. 7 they began gathering evidence of atrocities. They included footage of Ms. Abdush’s body in a presentation made to foreign governments and media organizations, using Ms. Abdush as a representation of violence committed against women that day.

 

A screenshot from a video showing Ms. Abdush’s body.Eden Wessely

A week after her body was found, three government social workers appeared at the gate of the family’s home in Kiryat Ekron, a small town in central Israel. They broke the news that Ms. Abdush, 34, had been found dead.

But the only document the family received was a one-page form letter from Israel’s president, Isaac Herzog, expressing his condolences and sending a hug. The body of Mr. Abdush, 35, was identified two days after his wife’s. It was badly burned and investigators determined who he was based on a DNA sample and his wedding ring.

The couple had been together since they were teenagers. To the family, it seems only yesterday that Mr. Abdush was heading off to work to fix water heaters, a bag of tools slung over his shoulder, and Ms. Abdush was cooking up mashed potatoes and schnitzel for their two sons, Eliav, 10, and Refael, 7.

The boys are now orphans. They were sleeping over at an aunt’s the night their parents were killed. Ms. Abdush’s mother and father have applied for permanent custody, and everyone is chipping in to help.

Night after night, Ms. Abdush’s mother, Eti Bracha, lies in bed with the boys until they drift off. A few weeks ago, she said she tried to quietly leave their bedroom when the younger boy stopped her.

“Grandma,” he said, “I want to ask you a question.”

“Honey,” she said, “you can ask anything.”

“Grandma, how did mom die?”

 

 

 

Oh we're playing this game again. Ok, here, I'll play along again:

I CONDEMN HAMAS AND THE OCT. 7TH ATTACKS, UNEQUIVICOLLY.

Now that that's out of the way, is it now ok for us to criticize anything Israel's leadership and/or the IDF does? I will await your judgment on the matter. I really need to know if you think criticism of Benjamin Netanyahu or anything his government does or has been doing is antisemitic or not. This hasn't been litigated and re-litigated in this thread 700 times already, I promise.

Thank you for your contribution, you're awesome!

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On 12/27/2023 at 7:05 PM, GW Hayduke said:

Great post. I think one way we have so many Americans being ok with supporting and financing war crimes is through the use of atrocity porn to dehumanize Palestinians and through random Twitter video clips of protestors to frame Palestinian supporters as “others.”  

It turns out that filming rapes and murders and bragging about them, and acting like assholes to people just going about their day is ineffective at garnering sympathy from lots of Americans.  What I find fascinating is that you blame people for noticing.  

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21 hours ago, Anastasis said:

I’d love to see this perspective unpacked for us to discuss. Seriously. 

It is not as cut and dry as people present on here.  Some of the settlements were on land that Jewish communities occupied but were driven off of in the early 1900s. I believe some of them were empty, but there were initially 4 main communities that this applies to. 

From one source I read, the majority do so for economic reasons (cheaper to live there) however up to 1/3 of the settlers are right wing extremists. 

The next issue is who governs that land?  Who polices it when there are crimes against the settlers or crimes committed by them?  Does Israel have the authority to remove the settlers?   Do they have the authority to enforce laws and whose laws?  

I have brought some of this up much earlier in the thread (or the DT thread) but emotions were too high.  

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Yeah, Hayduke has referred to “atrocity porn” a couple of times, as if pointing to what could be called “facts” or “evidence” is an unfair tactic. 
 
I was thinking the other day…who cares the most for Palestinian civilians? In terms of giving them time, or treasure, for their true benefit? Of Hamas, Fatah, the UN, Iran, the U.S., Israel,…who cares the most for their well being? 
 
I think it’s hard to argue against the idea that, of those groups, Israel and the U.S. are the most committed to the well being of the Palestinian civilians. 

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15 minutes ago, statsman said:

Yeah, Hayduke has referred to “atrocity porn” a couple of times, as if pointing to what could be called “facts” or “evidence” is an unfair tactic. 
 
I was thinking the other day…who cares the most for Palestinian civilians? In terms of giving them time, or treasure, for their true benefit? Of Hamas, Fatah, the UN, Iran, the U.S., Israel,…who cares the most for their well being? 
 
I think it’s hard to argue against the idea that, of those groups, Israel and the U.S. are the most committed to the well being of the Palestinian civilians. 

Atrocity propaganda is a thing but the difference here is that the first producers and distributors of the propaganda were the perps themselves. It’s just obfuscation in terms, trying to claim that being upset over real rapes and murders that Hamas filmed and circulated is equivalent to swallowing Great War stories about the ravaging Hun. 
 

At most, you can get upset at people for believing Hamas’ own propaganda, which is kind of a self-defeating argument. 

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3 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

It turns out that filming rapes and murders and bragging about them, and acting like assholes to people just going about their day is ineffective at garnering sympathy from lots of Americans.  What I find fascinating is that you blame people for noticing.  

You are a propagandist and definitely one of the primary culprits in pushing twitter hot take atrocity porn here and in the DT, so I understand why you are triggered when I pull the curtains back. Maybe your next move should be to try and label me as the “other” and an antisemite.  

I could plaster this thread with information on all the dead babies and children in Gaza and then label you as an “other” hoping to push some bullshit narrative.  But I don’t because that is disingenuous commentary and I’m not a propagandist. 

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2 hours ago, BrickHorn said:

You’re a satire account, right? 

Not at all. 
Let’s talk through it. 
The U.S. wants to see as few Palestinians killed as possible, while supporting Israel’s defense. 
Israel wants to kill as few Palestinians as possible (I believe, and their actions support this belief), while destroying Hamas. 
Iran is willing to spend every Palestinian life in support of its fight against Israel, and the U.S.

Hamas is willing to use Palestinian civilians as human shields as it pursues its fight to kill Jews. 
 
Everyone is appealing to Israel and the U.S. for a ceasefire, and not Hamas and Iran, because everyone sees them as the best bet to stop fighting out of concern for loss of innocent life. Am I wrong?

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11 minutes ago, GW Hayduke said:

You are a propagandist and definitely one of the primary culprits in pushing twitter hot take atrocity porn here and in the DT, so I understand why you are triggered when I pull the curtains back. Maybe your next move should be to try and label me as the “other” and an antisemite.  

I could plaster this thread with information on all the dead babies and children in Gaza and then label you as an “other” hoping to push some bullshit narrative.  But I don’t because that is disingenuous commentary and I’m not a propagandist. 

Where you keep tripping up is that the “atrocity porn” is just stuff that Hamas filmed and distributed themselves, because they get off on rapes and murders.  And you just can’t stand that people notice. 
 

It’s one of those magical things about Israel, it’s the only country devious enough to trick its enemies into producing propaganda on its behalf .

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1 minute ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Where you keep tripping up is that the “atrocity porn” is just stuff that Hamas filmed and distributed themselves, because they get off on rapes and murders.  And you just can’t stand that people notice. 

That isn’t a “gotcha” or an excuse to be a propagandist. 

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1 minute ago, GW Hayduke said:

That isn’t a “gotcha” or an excuse to be a propagandist. 

It is not propaganda to talk about the things Hamas actually did, and filmed. You are confusing propaganda with “facts I don’t like.” 
 

Was it propaganda to publish what happened in Bucha? Or just anti-Russian propaganda. 

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8 minutes ago, GW Hayduke said:

You are a propagandist and definitely one of the primary culprits in pushing twitter hot take atrocity porn here and in the DT, so I understand why you are triggered when I pull the curtains back. Maybe your next move should be to try and label me as the “other” and an antisemite.  

I could plaster this thread with information on all the dead babies and children in Gaza and then label you as an “other” hoping to push some bullshit narrative.  But I don’t because that is disingenuous commentary and I’m not a propagandist. 

“Atrocity porn”. You keep using that phrase. 
 
Porn excites some, and offends others (and does both to some). Porn’s educational and informational qualities are usually lacking. 
 
What do you suppose should be done with the info about these atrocities? They are certainly shocking. Yet, there is an informational aspect of knowing thousands of Hamas fighters actually planned to break barriers to get into habitats so that they could rape women and then cut up their vaginas. It certainly seems to have educated a lot of Israelis. 
 
Somebody above, on this thread, posted that they want all of them hunted down and killed, and I can’t argue with that. 
 
Side note- the news articles about ancient Nazis brought out of their assisted living centers and delivered to prison are getting rarer. I still cheer, inside, when they are printed, even though the Nazis were just teens as the war was ending. These men lived long decades and maybe thought they had outlived their crimes. Maybe they thought their longer life spent crime free absolved them. Ha-ha-ha! Not so!

 
Similarly, I look forward to decades of reading of random Palestinians, ex-Hamas fighters, living serene civilian lives in the future, pulled from their tranquil later lives and killed in punishment for their crimes of October 7. 

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6 minutes ago, statsman said:

“Atrocity porn”. You keep using that phrase. 
 
Porn excites some, and offends others (and does both to some). Porn’s educational and informational qualities are usually lacking. 
 
What do you suppose should be done with the info about these atrocities? They are certainly shocking. Yet, there is an informational aspect of knowing thousands of Hamas fighters actually planned to break barriers to get into habitats so that they could rape women and then cut up their vaginas. It certainly seems to have educated a lot of Israelis. 
 
Somebody above, on this thread, posted that they want all of them hunted down and killed, and I can’t argue with that. 
 

It’s just a dishonest tactic to avoid talking about things that are bad for your side.  The first instinct was to deny the assaults happened, and then when the NYT reports they they did, you just have to change to say it shouldn’t be talked about.  And no one says it’s propaganda to show footage of what is happening in Gaza.

Think of all the moments in history that are known, documented, and provoked change because of shocking, authentic reporting on them:

Abu Ghraib 

“Terror of War” Photo

Bucha/Irpin

Rwanda 

ISIS persecution of Yazidis and executions 

Auschwitz and Dachau at liberation 

On, and on, and on, and on.  It’s only this instance that Hayduke objects to. It’s the exact same equivalent of neocons who say they stuff like Abu Ghraib shouldn’t be published because it undermines troop morale or the war effort. 

 

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1 minute ago, 956 Worldwide said:

It is not propaganda to talk about the things Hamas actually did, and filmed. You are confusing propaganda with “facts I don’t like.” 

Propaganda doesn't have to be composed of non-facts. Your commentary is un-productive gish gallop.  For others, I've pulled back the curtain.

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47 minutes ago, statsman said:

Side note- the news articles about ancient Nazis brought out of their assisted living centers and delivered to prison are getting rarer. I still cheer, inside, when they are printed, even though the Nazis were just teens as the war was ending. These men lived long decades and maybe thought they had outlived their crimes. Maybe they thought their longer life spent crime free absolved them. Ha-ha-ha! Not so!

Is incarceration about rehabilitation or punishment?  Is there a real benefit to society with incarcerating geriatrics?   If they are prosecuting 100 year olds, I think they need a lesson on the law of diminishing returns.   That money would be better spent on cancer research or to create parks with swings on it.  

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2 hours ago, GW Hayduke said:

You are a propagandist and definitely one of the primary culprits in pushing twitter hot take atrocity porn here and in the DT, so I understand why you are triggered when I pull the curtains back. Maybe your next move should be to try and label me as the “other” and an antisemite.  

I could plaster this thread with information on all the dead babies and children in Gaza and then label you as an “other” hoping to push some bullshit narrative.  But I don’t because that is disingenuous commentary and I’m not a propagandist. 

Negged for an extremely disingenuous post.

21 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

I'm not sure you know what ethnic cleansing is.

I don't.  What is it?

8 hours ago, Brian Fantana said:

I CONDEMN HAMAS AND THE OCT. 7TH ATTACKS, UNEQUIVICOLLY.

So, what now?  Do nothing?  Ask Hamas nicely for the hostages back?  Pay Hamas some ransom? 

 

 

Edited by Bullneck
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Pull back the foreign policy hood from many posters here and there is a little lindsey graham and/or nikki haley underneath it flailing about. 

 

In other news from the "saying the obvious" file, SA files charges of genocide at ICJ.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-67844551

From the "who could have guessed the response" file, Israel says the charges are antisemitic blood libel. 

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7 hours ago, Nivek said:

It is not as cut and dry as people present on here.  Some of the settlements were on land that Jewish communities occupied but were driven off of in the early 1900s. I believe some of them were empty, but there were initially 4 main communities that this applies to. 

From one source I read, the majority do so for economic reasons (cheaper to live there) however up to 1/3 of the settlers are right wing extremists. 

The next issue is who governs that land?  Who polices it when there are crimes against the settlers or crimes committed by them?  Does Israel have the authority to remove the settlers?   Do they have the authority to enforce laws and whose laws?  

I have brought some of this up much earlier in the thread (or the DT thread) but emotions were too high.  

Would appreciate links to some of these claims, to be informed.  I don't know what surveys show of the motivations of settlers, whether they are economic or fundamentalist extremist in nature. Not sure that it is really substantive to the bottom line, but it is an interesting data point. I don't find the questions you lay out to be particularly compelling in terms of correcting the reality of the situation on the ground. The occupation is illegal, brutal, and dehumanizing. The reality is that many of the settlers are straight up terrorists, backed by the IDF and Israel.

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7 hours ago, statsman said:

I think it’s hard to argue against the idea that, of those groups, Israel and the U.S. are the most committed to the well being of the Palestinian civilians. 

This is some of the dumbest shit ever posted on this sub, and that is not a inattentive claim that I make lightly. 

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13 hours ago, Brian Fantana said:

Bro, are you trolling?

Read your own post and what you quoted.

Apologies.  I miss some stuff from time to time.   BTW, did you answer this or did I miss that too? 

15 hours ago, Bullneck said:

So, what now?  Do nothing?  Ask Hamas nicely for the hostages back?  Pay Hamas some ransom? 

@brian_fantana -^^^ right here, bud.  Waitin' on your solution. 

And please jump on this one as well:

15 hours ago, Brian Fantana said:

I'm not sure you know what ethnic cleansing is.

 

Edited by Bullneck
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Speaking of disingenuous shit, I see that Anastasis is on here promoting the ridiculous casualty figures that he pulled from anti-Zionist Twitter, which (in line with Anastasis) is mostly obsessed with proving that Israel is worse than Russia.  
 

What does the OHCR actually say about these figures:

image.thumb.jpeg.b5e15c40adbe1b8f17efeab5b89d453c.jpeg

 

Russia hasn’t allowed any investigations or reporting from Mariupol, Sieverodontesk, and all the other cities they leveled and continue to occupy. It’s a black fucking box and everyone knows the there’s mountains of corpses but there’s no Hamas run health ministry to report it.

He’s been a total pro-Putin simp for years and yet his bullshit on this thread gets lapped up. 

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15 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Speaking of disingenuous shit, I see that Anastasis is on here promoting the ridiculous casualty figures that he pulled from anti-Zionist Twitter, which (in line with Anastasis) is mostly obsessed with proving that Israel is worse than Russia.  

I hope that everybody here can see through your propaganda artistry at this point. It's always been quite obvious to me. Those figures are capped from CNN and the sources are cited in the figures you fucking clown. And given that they are over a month old, significantly underrepresent the current numbers. Dead babies stacking up faster than can be counted in real time in Gaza. 

https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/07/middleeast/palestinian-israeli-deaths-gaza-dg/index.html 

 

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2 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

I hope that everybody here can see through your propaganda artistry at this point. It's always been quite obvious to me. Those figures are capped from CNN and the sources are cited in the figures you fucking clown. And given that they are over a month old, significantly underrepresent the current numbers. Dead babies stacking up faster than can be counted in real time in Gaza. 

https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/07/middleeast/palestinian-israeli-deaths-gaza-dg/index.html 

 

I quoted the actual source from OHCR you absolute dipshit. The ones that CNN quotes.

https://www.ohchr.org/en/news/2023/09/ukraine-civilian-casualty-update-24-september-2023#:~:text=From 24 February 2022%2C which,9%2C701 killed and 17%2C748 injured.

 

Quote

OHCHR believes that the actual figures are considerably higher, as the receipt of information from some locations where intense hostilities have been going on has been delayed and many reports are still pending corroboration. This concerns, for example, Mariupol (Donetsk region), Lysychansk, Popasna, and Sievierodonetsk (Luhansk region), where there are allegations of numerous civilian casualties.


 

Ukraine’s deaths are significantly undercounted, so offering up some comparison is just clown-ass behavior.  It’s comparing things that can’t be compared. But to be expected from someone who doesn’t give a shit about kids in Palestine or elsewhere, you care about simping for the Kremlin and obfuscating what they are doing. 

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I'm sure it was unfathomable misery in Hamburg and Dresden and Tokyo and Nagasaki and Hiroshima.  But we're best friends now. 

I don't say that to be mean or cruel or unfeeling, but Bibi is going to break the Palestinians.  It's 11:58pm and there's no stay of execution coming from the Governor's Mansion.  

******

Here's some interesting reading if you get a moment: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entebbe_raid

Edited by Bullneck
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29 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Russia hasn’t allowed any investigations or reporting from Mariupol, Sieverodontesk, and all the other cities they leveled and continue to occupy.

Now tell us about the IDF and investigations and independent reporting in Gaza. The sad thing is that you know exactly what you are doing. You are versed and I assume have workplace experience in assessing propaganda operations and how they are used to justify atrocities. And here you are, tip of the spear in the message board exchange. But please, just keep muttering out "Putin talking points" to yourself in the corner and think that it will resonate with objective readers of this exchange. 

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