Jump to content

Israel


SmokeyBear1861

Recommended Posts

9 minutes ago, UpperWestside said:

This situation obviously sucks for the Palestinians. We all should have the freedom to exist and be able to do so without a threat of lead falling from the sky that could kill us at any moment. 
 

I do not believe that any of us will live long enough to see a two state solution implemented nor will the bickering that leads to outright violence ever stop. If I was the president of a country of people who embraced different cultures and didn’t have 40 percent or so of it that hates brown people I would offer every single Palestinian full citizenship that would want to take it. They are entitled to have the ability to live life without the fear of death hanging over them. We get one life and so much of theirs is wasted by their neighbor being a schoolyard bully while the teachers and administration (Us and the rest of Israel’s enablers) lets this continue on.  

I think we will. And I agree about citizenship for those who want it. I think most will.

The issue are these.

1- How do you ever fix the animosity on both sides?

2- What do you do with those who do not want this solution? The hardline on both sides.

3- How to integrate?

4- How do you stop the expansion of settlements?

The existence of Arab Israelis, many who serve in the IDF, shows it can work.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

I think we will. And I agree about citizenship for those who want it. I think most will.

The issue are these.

1- How do you ever fix the animosity on both sides?

2- What do you do with those who do not want this solution? The hardline on both sides.

3- How to integrate?

4- How do you stop the expansion of settlements?

The existence of Arab Israelis, many who serve in the IDF, shows it can work.

First, the things that we actually have direct control over. Stop just free dumping military arms and money into the region.  

  • Hook 'Em 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Anastasis said:

First, the things that we actually have direct control over. Stop just free dumping military arms and money into the region.  

Israel makes a lot of their own shit. I agree about the heavy crap. But they make the small arms being used in the West Bank. They make a lot of their own drones, tanks, naval ships, missiles. Other than fighters, helicopters, and ammo, they are pretty self sufficient. Can you answer my points?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

24 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

I think we will. And I agree about citizenship for those who want it. I think most will.

The issue are these.

1- How do you ever fix the animosity on both sides? treat the west bank arabs with humanity, ease the brutality - the animosity will subside. The vast majority are ordinary people with families who simply want a normal life without being shot in the head. 

2- What do you do with those who do not want this solution? The hardline on both sides. - see #1, the hardliners will dissipate. See the 2 million Israeli Arabs who rarely even protest. 

3- How to integrate? remove the apartheid, that will happen once the west bank Arabs get citizenship. Not overnight, but change will take a few short years. 

4- How do you stop the expansion of settlements? not possible, Jews will continue to build endlessly into the west bank, but that's ok since that will become officially Israel. 

The existence of Arab Israelis, many who serve in the IDF, shows it can work. The Arab Israeli community is itself divided into loyalists -- Druze & Bedouin (generally) are with the Jews, the rest of the Muslim Arabs don't join the IDF. 

answers 

  • Hook 'Em 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

I think we will. And I agree about citizenship for those who want it. I think most will.

The issue are these.

1- How do you ever fix the animosity on both sides?

2- What do you do with those who do not want this solution? The hardline on both sides.

3- How to integrate?

4- How do you stop the expansion of settlements?

The existence of Arab Israelis, many who serve in the IDF, shows it can work.

The animosity is something we cannot fix. This goes back to Old Testament times for each of them. That level of dislike, hatred, distrust is something that is out of any of our hands. Again that sucks, but sometimes there are things that will not change.

If I could take the hardliners on each side that continue to prod and provoke anger to an island and leave them all there to fight it out to the death I’d readily do it if it meant cooler and more sensible people could come together from each side.

If I could take the Palestinians that want to come here I would do it and I would get the ones capable of working into a career field they are either already in or qualified to be in as well as getting them started with housing. Perhaps an apartment relative to the size of their family. Again this would require a society that doesn’t have millions that hate brown people to make it work.

You want to see the settlement expansion stop? You stop giving leeway to the leadership in Israel to be pricks. You stop handing them weapons and weapon systems that kill people by the bushel. Israel keeps doing what they do because there is no one stopping them. Again this whole settlement thing also goes back to the Jews believing all this land to be theirs since God gave it to them. This ignores the parts where God sent them away from the land for being ungrateful idol worshipping clowns. That part always seems to be overlooked. He giveth and He taketh away. 
 

I do like that the IDF is an integrated unit with Arabs serving in it. The military here was ahead of the civilian population as well on integration as you well know. 
 

Overall I think you have to have two sides who want compromise. This is not that situation. The best case would be to tell the Palestinians to pack their bags for America and a life where they can not have to live like prisoners. That would be my course of action. We can never be diverse enough in my opinion. 

 

  • Hook 'Em 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

26 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

Israel makes a lot of their own shit. I agree about the heavy crap. But they make the small arms being used in the West Bank. They make a lot of their own drones, tanks, naval ships, missiles. Other than fighters, helicopters, and ammo, they are pretty self sufficient. Can you answer my points?

Yes, I totally agree. They have a highly functional and sophisticated arms industry (admittedly built with our subsidizing). All the more reason to stop sending them more American taxpayer funded shit. 

1- How to fix the animosity on both sides? Holy fuck if this is our responsibility to fix. I tell you that whatever we are doing right now certainly is not helping. Stop arming them to kill each other though may be a good start. 

2- What to do about the hardlines? Stop sending them money and weapons. 

3- How to integrate? Take a firm and unwavering stand against apartheid.

4- Settlements? Maybe for one stop cock blocking every security council resolution on the matter and conditioning all further aid packages on winding them down and returning to a lawful posture.

 

We have very limited ability to control the actions of either Israel or the Palestinians. We only control ourselves. And with that of course, we control the flow of American guns and money. So that imo is where we should start.  

 

Edited by Anastasis
  • Hook 'Em 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

Least surprising news of the month?

Tonight has Proven that Israel has the Ability and the Capability to launch Strikes against Iranian Territory without almost anyone knowing it’s coming and likely without the Support of the United States.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

39 minutes ago, tx 3 putt said:

Tonight has Proven that Israel has the Ability and the Capability to launch Strikes against Iranian Territory without almost anyone knowing it’s coming and likely without the Support of the United States.

They're not that far apart, did anyone think otherwise?

e: I've lost my mind and replied to the weird racist OSINT nerd haven't I gdit

Edited by Brian Fantana
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, BrickHorn said:

That’s 100% bullshit. 

Yeah, I’ve got other replies I want to make when I have time. But Jews and Arabs were living together in Palestine in relative peace prior to the Zionist movement and the Balfour Declaration. Those Jews were more similar culturally to their Arab neighbors.

The influx of of European culture, from both the west and the east (for our Western sensibilities it should be noted that that included Bolshevik ideologies brought along with Eastern European Jews from nascent Soviet territories), ruffled the feathers of indigenous peoples on both sides, Arabs and Jews alike.

Judaism isn’t a monolith. (And anti-Zionism =/= anti-Semitism.)

  • Hook 'Em 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 hours ago, Gengs1 said:

The lead paragraphs:

image.png.ff256e455b98b78706064a5f64f84af2.png

This is an embarrassing proposal that some geniuses on the panel must think is pretty subtle. "You see, we can sanction certain units. It's looks like we're doing something, but we're really not. Nobody will notice. Hee hee."

As a response to "serious human rights abuses," it's a transparent fig leaf placed atop our slavish dedication to Israel no matter what their policies are. We sold them a bunch of 2000-pound bombs a few weeks ago amid the other support for their fake "war" in Gaza. We support a campaign of high explosive bombs against neighborhoods and use of famine to displace an entire population.

I'm thinking Blinken, whom I know nothing about, probably sees this quarter-measure for what it is and how it would play. It's worse than doing nothing. Doing nothing is at least honest even if it's otherwise wicked.

The press ballyhoos this as though the sanctions would mean something. They would mean something to idiots in the press who refuse to think critically. But hey! They got a scoop and have made it into pap for Idiot World. Any moment, the panels on CNN and elsewhere will talk about "signals." What kind of signal is this? That analysis passes as intelligent as well.

American foreign policy is cheap theater entertainment for the masses here. It's worse now that the GOP has decided their interests are more important than the interests of the United States.

Pathetic.

Edited by RomaVicta
  • Hook 'Em 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 hours ago, UpperWestside said:

This goes back to Old Testament times for each of them.

You and I are in agreement on the issues. I just take issue with this line that is often repeated. Jews lived in Palestine prior to the creation of modern Israel. The history of this conflict dates back to the creation of Israel after WW2.

In antiquity, empires were rolling in and out of this area. I'm reading "Jerusalem" at the moment which is a history of that city starting from scratch. Great book. There was no particular animus between what is now Palestine and the different national forms of the Jewish state (comprised of Judah and Israel).

The imperial ambitions and violence of those times were the norm. Sometimes you were on top, sometimes the bottom, sometimes just hanging on. 

Again, I agree with where you stand on the issues.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

29 minutes ago, RomaVicta said:

You and I are in agreement on the issues. I just take issue with this line that is often repeated.

It’s a thought-terminating cliche. An attempt to stifle debate and inspire “What are ya gonna do?” shrugs, rather than dig in and understand the conflict. The biblical connotations make it extra effective at shutting down any critical thought.

And yeah, I thought twice about calling out @UpperWestside specifically on this because his views on the issues seem generally reasonable. But he has repeated this particular canard and it’s a dangerous one.

  • Hook 'Em 1
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, BrickHorn said:

It’s a thought-terminating cliche. An attempt to stifle debate and inspire “What are ya gonna do?” shrugs, rather than dig in and understand the conflict. The biblical connotations make it extra effective at shutting down any critical thought.

And yeah, I thought twice about calling out @UpperWestside specifically on this because his views on the issues seem generally reasonable. But he has repeated this particular canard and it’s a dangerous one.

Evangelicals and the like are the most dangerous Americans. 

  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, RomaVicta said:

You and I are in agreement on the issues. I just take issue with this line that is often repeated. Jews lived in Palestine prior to the creation of modern Israel. The history of this conflict dates back to the creation of Israel after WW2.

In antiquity, empires were rolling in and out of this area. I'm reading "Jerusalem" at the moment which is a history of that city starting from scratch. Great book. There was no particular animus between what is now Palestine and the different national forms of the Jewish state (comprised of Judah and Israel).

The imperial ambitions and violence of those times were the norm. Sometimes you were on top, sometimes the bottom, sometimes just hanging on. 

Again, I agree with where you stand on the issues.

1890s and the first Jewish Zionist settlers in the area after WW1 generally speaking, but a few incidents in the 1900-1917 period as well. 

  • Hook 'Em 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, BrickHorn said:

It’s a thought-terminating cliche. An attempt to stifle debate and inspire “What are ya gonna do?” shrugs, rather than dig in and understand the conflict. The biblical connotations make it extra effective at shutting down any critical thought.

And yeah, I thought twice about calling out @UpperWestside specifically on this because his views on the issues seem generally reasonable. But he has repeated this particular canard and it’s a dangerous one.

There’s no attempt to stifle any debate. You can go back and forth into perpetuity if you want to. The evidence shown says that we will not see these two groups of people sit down and come to an agreement that stops the violence. The big brother right now is unloading almost everything in the arsenal and the little brother in this scenario will look to get revenge at some point and the violence starts all over again. It is not going to stop and we as westerners think we can just ride in and save the day. We cannot and will not.

Mentioning that both of these two peoples share common ancestry is nothing new. That a large part of it went to Egypt and came back to take it several centuries later because “God told them it was their promised land of milk and honey” meant they came back and either slaughtered, ejected or enslaved the locals who were there in the centuries that the Jews were gone. I would imagine that should the US still be here in 3000 years (I know, I know) that there will still be Indigenous people’s ancestors who want their original land back. That’s humans being humans. Palestinians deserve to have their ancestral lands back intact, but there is a greater chance of the Lakers asking me to be their new shooting guard than that happening. I abhor violence and hate to see it in any form against anyone, but here we are. I would rather just take every Palestinian and move them here to have a better life. Human beings as a whole hold bitter grudges and will never stop trying to kill one another as long as at least two of us exist.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, UpperWestside said:

There’s no attempt to stifle any debate. You can go back and forth into perpetuity if you want to. The evidence shown says that we will not see these two groups of people sit down and come to an agreement that stops the violence.

Your understanding of the history of this conflict is fucked. The idea that Jews and Palestinians have always fought and always will is a lie. I can’t put it any more politely than that. 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

42 minutes ago, BrickHorn said:

Your understanding of the history of this conflict is fucked. The idea that Jews and Palestinians have always fought and always will is a lie. I can’t put it any more politely than that. 

Your understanding that not always fighting means they are cool with each other is off the mark. Nowhere have I said they have always fought. I stated plainly that the origins of this go back three millennia. You look at everything through your western lens and not the lens of the people that have historically had control of their ancestral homeland. The Palestinians want their home back and the heavily armed Israelis are not giving them anything. We’ll both be long gone and this conflict between these two ancient peoples will still be ongoing. 

Edited by UpperWestside
Link to comment
Share on other sites

26 minutes ago, UpperWestside said:

Your understanding that not always fighting means they are cool with each other is off the mark. Nowhere have I said they have always fought. I stated plainly that the origins of this go back three millennia. You look at everything through your western lens and not the lens of the people that have historically had control of their ancestral homeland. The Palestinians want their home back and the heavily armed Israelis are not giving them anything. We’ll both be long gone and this conflict between these two ancient peoples will still be ongoing. 

This is, plainly put, horse shit. You are literally parroting the default western position. A position that has been cynically used for decades to outsource western guilt for allowing/participating in pogroms and the Holocaust directly to Palestinians.

Edited by Brian Fantana
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, UpperWestside said:

You look at everything through your western lens and not the lens of the people that have historically had control of their ancestral homeland.

UW, I know that you are a sincere poster coming from a good place at heart. This above is wrong headed though. With sincerity, I would like to suggest a couple books that I think you might enjoy and would find some interesting perspective. I'd be happy to send you either one or both. 

https://www.amazon.com/Blood-Brothers-Dramatic-Palestinian-Christian/dp/154090217X

https://www.amazon.com/Holy-Mountain-Journey-Christians-Middle/dp/0307948897

 

 

  • Hook 'Em 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Make em eat Taco Bell said:

Congress is going to send another $15 Billion , or maybe that was the first $15 Billion, I've lost track how much those murderous aholes are getting.  Anyway, the interesting part is $9 million has been allocated to Gaza aid.  $15 billion to kill them, $9 mil to anyone left alive.  

Yep, numbers are real fucked up. And at the same time we have police training programs in the West Bank.

And of that aid, how much will get down to those that really need it? Fund fucking conferences in Geneva to talk about the situation. Yeah, aid is used for that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yep, numbers are real fucked up. And at the same time we have police training programs in the West Bank.
And of that aid, how much will get down to those that really need it? Fund fucking conferences in Geneva to talk about the situation. Yeah, aid is used for that.

Wait…are we training their cops to not protect citizens and actually abuse and kill them…or are they training OUR cops to do that?
  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:


Wait…are we training their cops to not protect citizens and actually abuse and kill them…or are they training OUR cops to do that?

We train Palestinian Authority police officers. We did it in Gaza before Hamas took over as well.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, InkaUtexas said:

We train Palestinian Authority police officers. We did it in Gaza before Hamas took over as well.

But how do they know who to harass and target if everyone is a shade of brown?

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, Anastasis said:

UW, I know that you are a sincere poster coming from a good place at heart. This above is wrong headed though. With sincerity, I would like to suggest a couple books that I think you might enjoy and would find some interesting perspective. I'd be happy to send you either one or both. 

https://www.amazon.com/Blood-Brothers-Dramatic-Palestinian-Christian/dp/154090217X

https://www.amazon.com/Holy-Mountain-Journey-Christians-Middle/dp/0307948897

 

 

 

Thanks for recs but come on everything is written with a slanted view. I  tend to agree with UW view of this, yes this current conflict can be traced to the creation of Israel by Western powers, but prior to that jews and muslims were not all kumbya holding hands everything great buddy. Yes there were times of "peace" but whichever sect was ruling was happy, the others were not, throughout history muslims have committed genocide to jews (and vice versa), it was one the first acts muhammed did when he came to power.

I think anyone who is jumping on UW or anyone else for mentioning the history between the two tribes and saying this only because of the creation of Israel and ignoring the deep seated animosity built up over the centuries is being naive and or ignorant. History is what shapes us and many of you are way too intelligent to ignore the history of jews and muslims and view this current conflict in a vacuum

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Smax said:

 

Thanks for recs but come on everything is written with a slanted view. I  tend to agree with UW view of this, yes this current conflict can be traced to the creation of Israel by Western powers, but prior to that jews and muslims were not all kumbya holding hands everything great buddy. Yes there were times of "peace" but whichever sect was ruling was happy, the others were not, throughout history muslims have committed genocide to jews (and vice versa), it was one the first acts muhammed did when he came to power.

I think anyone who is jumping on UW or anyone else for mentioning the history between the two tribes and saying this only because of the creation of Israel and ignoring the deep seated animosity built up over the centuries is being naive and or ignorant. History is what shapes us and many of you are way too intelligent to ignore the history of jews and muslims and view this current conflict in a vacuum

 

That’s all hand-wavy bullshit. There’s no substance to this idea that Jews and Muslims have always been at odds, vying for control of the Middle East.

Jews were replaced as the majority in Palestine in the 5th century AD, by Christians. Christians were, in turn, surpassed by Muslims. For centuries, Jewish people formed a tiny minority in Palestine, amounting to somewhere in the range of 1-3% of the population. They just weren’t a significant part of the region’s demographics or history during that lengthy period, which only began to change in the late 1800s. 

It would be like if Aztecs had fled en masse to Europe, established themselves as Europeans, intermarried for centuries, but kept worshipping Quetzalcoatl and speaking Nahuatl as a second language. If their ancestors started immigrating to Mexico in 2400 and violence broke out between Aztecs and Spanish-speaking Mexicans, would it be fair to justify the situation with a shrug and a cliche like “Well, the Aztecs and Spaniards have been fighting back and forth forever, so whaddya gonna do?”

That would be stupid, right?

I mean, hell, you could use the same argument to justify war between Israel and any Western nation, since certainly Christians committed grave atrocities against the Jews throughout history (and far more recently than any Muslim-perpetrated aggression).

It’s bad history and bad logic, and it ends up causing otherwise intelligent people to stop thinking critically about current events. 

  • Hook 'Em 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Too late to edit my last post, but I wanted to add: the canard that any two groups of human beings are eternal enemies is defeatist bullshit, based on a weird assumption that hatred is a genetic trait. Peace is possible, but not if we assume animosity is encoded in our DNA. 

  • Hook 'Em 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, BrickHorn said:

That’s all hand-wavy bullshit. There’s no substance to this idea that Jews and Muslims have always been at odds, vying for control of the Middle East.

@UpperWestsidehas been making the same claims about Israel and Iran on that thread, with the same misunderstanding of history.  
 

  • Hook 'Em 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

25 minutes ago, BrickHorn said:

That’s all hand-wavy bullshit. There’s no substance to this idea that Jews and Muslims have always been at odds, vying for control of the Middle East.

Jews were replaced as the majority in Palestine in the 5th century AD, by Christians. Christians were, in turn, surpassed by Muslims. For centuries, Jewish people formed a tiny minority in Palestine, amounting to somewhere in the range of 1-3% of the population. They just weren’t a significant part of the region’s demographics or history during that lengthy period, which only began to change in the late 1800s. 

It would be like if Aztecs had fled en masse to Europe, established themselves as Europeans, intermarried for centuries, but kept worshipping Quetzalcoatl and speaking Nahuatl as a second language. If their ancestors started immigrating to Mexico in 2400 and violence broke out between Aztecs and Spanish-speaking Mexicans, would it be fair to justify the situation with a shrug and a cliche like “Well, the Aztecs and Spaniards have been fighting back and forth forever, so whaddya gonna do?”

That would be stupid, right?

I mean, hell, you could use the same argument to justify war between Israel and any Western nation, since certainly Christians committed grave atrocities against the Jews throughout history (and far more recently than any Muslim-perpetrated aggression).

It’s bad history and bad logic, and it ends up causing otherwise intelligent people to stop thinking critically about current events. 

 

hand wavy bullshit? LOL, there is historical documentation of Arabs under muhammed attacking jewish settlements throughout the Arabian peninsula, the battle of uhud being one of the first.

Why did the Aztecs errr Jews flee en mass to another continent? Constant harrassment maybe? being labeled a dhimmi and having to pay a jizyah, you glossed over SO many important events that helped shape all of these feelings over a span 2000 year, so hand wavy bullshit, no not at all

 like my post above said you can not just gloss over and dismiss the history of the area, its narrow minded

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 hours ago, Make em eat Taco Bell said:

Congress is going to send another $15 Billion , or maybe that was the first $15 Billion, I've lost track how much those murderous aholes are getting.  Anyway, the interesting part is $9 million has been allocated to Gaza aid.  $15 billion to kill them, $9 mil to anyone left alive.  

Still not enough, but this is the amount passed in the Israel bill. No justification, just FYI.

$9.1 billion for humanitarian needs

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/us-house-vote-long-awaited-95-billion-ukraine-israel-aid-package-2024-04-20/

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Smax said:

hand wavy bullshit? LOL, there is historical documentation of Arabs under muhammed attacking jewish settlements throughout the Arabian peninsula, the battle of uhud being one of the first.

You’re literally talking about ancient history. Things that happened over 1,000 years ago.

The question isn’t whether those things happened; it’s whether they demonstrate a sustained conflict between Jews and Arabs of which the modern Israeli-Palestinian conflict can be understood as a mere continuation. That idea is ludicrous. It ignores the fact that the founders of Israel were European immigrants whose ancestors had lived outside the Levant (and thus had minimal to no contact with Arabs) for centuries, and the reasons those immigrants came in the first place. 

If you’re looking to explain the situation in Palestine as a consequence of conflict with a rival religious group, 20th Century Christians are far more relevant than 7th Century Muslims. 

Edited by BrickHorn
  • Hook 'Em 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

what to do going forward?? No conflict in history has lasted forever, this might, but what to do when Israel's arrogance and power cannot be reduced, in fact increases (triple the normal US Aid) with their worst murderous behavior (Gaza 2023-24).  It's surreal.  How can the powerful racist aggressor be rewarded over and over again? Baffling.  Israel wants the status quo of denying the Arabs any rights, while playing the victim, brainwashing everyone, exploiting American racism and far right Protestantism.  And nothing can be done at all. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, UpperWestside said:

More awesome stuff.

Oh you are still following the thread. I assumed you were busy or offline, since you hadn’t responded to my request that you explain your theory. But it seems you’re just ducking the question.

So I’ll ask again: can you explain how “the origins of [the modern Israel-Palestine conflict] go back three millennia” (as you claimed in an earlier post)?

Edited by BrickHorn
  • Hook 'Em 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

43 minutes ago, BrickHorn said:

You’re literally talking about ancient history. Things that happened over 1,000 years ago.

The question isn’t whether those things happened; it’s whether they demonstrate a sustained conflict between Jews and Arabs of which the modern Israeli-Palestinian conflict can be understood as a mere continuation. That idea is ludicrous. It ignores the fact that the founders of Israel were European immigrants whose ancestors had lived outside the Levant (and thus had minimal to no contact with Arabs) for centuries, and the reasons those immigrants came in the first place. 

If you’re looking to explain the situation in Palestine as a consequence of conflict with a rival religious group, 20th Century Christians are far more relevant than 7th Century Muslims. 

 

 

lol ok you're not worth the effort man you're right, you're the middle east history expert here as this is your career and all 

Link to comment
Share on other sites



×
×
  • Create New...