Jump to content

Israel


SmokeyBear1861

Recommended Posts

13 minutes ago, Beantown Express 2.0 said:

Tell us how Israel should go about doing it then?  

I mean, lets say you live in San Diego and if there was a Mexican terrorist group that came across the border from Tijuana and murdered 1400 woman and children from the US and took a few hundred hostages to boot back across the border into Mexico what would the US do?  If the terrorists went back to densely populated Tijuana and surrounded themselves with civilians would our government say, “eh too bad but we can’t do anything so let’s do nothing and see if they do it again.”  I’m pretty sure the citizens of this country would also be screaming for retribution and the dismantling of said Mexican terrorist group.  Maybe the Mexican terrorists believe California should still be theirs and the US stole the land from them and nothing will matter until all US citizens in CA are dead or move out  (We could do this for TX instead of CA also).

 

Brisket, nothing against Mexicans just using it as an example.  I guess I could do the same fake scenario with Canada technically. 

I've answered that question before.

Mexico isn't an apartheid state controlled by the US, and the cartel was not elected in 2006 by a slim margin nor has it held onto power undemocratically, but if it were the case that both of those untrue things were true, it would be a smart first step for the US to stop doing the apartheid.

Second step would be to use its world class intelligence apparatus to target cartel operatives, and not civilians.

To kill civilians or to inflict collective punishment such as shutting off food, water, and energy supplies, is neither productive nor legal.

To promote peace long term, Israel needs to cease its occupation of Palestine, it needs to participate in the reconstruction of Palestinian infrastructure and institutions, and it needs to pay reparations to the victims of the occupation (including to Israeli civilians who have suffered from collateral damage).

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, troph said:

why? so terrorists have most space to plan vicious attacks?  I personally think Israel should vacate the West Bank and leave Gaza alone but let's get real clear what happens next. It will take years but the terrorist organizations - Hamas and Hezbollah - will coordinate, train and plan additional attacks.

You guys one siding this are not seeing clearly.

It's an IMPOSSIBLE situation.

No one is one siding anything. Hamas and the like must be stopped. The state of Israel, however, as the most powerful player in this conflict, needs to change the way it treats Palestinians. If it doesn't, neither side will ever have peace, no matter how much punishment Israel inflicts on terrorists.

Edited by David Dennison
  • Hook 'Em 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

No one is one siding anything. Hamas and the like must be stopped. The state of Israel, however, as the most powerful player in this conflict, needs to change the way it treats Palestinians. If it doesn't, neither side will ever have peace, no matter how much punishment Israel inflicts on terrorists.

As far as I’m concerned, Palestine parties on our darkest day ever, even before Hamas was in charge there. Why should Israel change its ways? Fuck em
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Mainly because it claims to want peace, but also because oppression breeds violence.

Not sure if you’re aware but Basically every country in the region has a level 3 or level 4 travel alert from the US state department all saying the same thing for traveling Americans : US has little control and can’t save you, draft a will, beware of terrorism, kidnapping, death.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Mainly because it claims to want peace, but also because oppression breeds violence.

As long as Israel exists as a Jewish state there will be violence.  Period.

Does Israel do shit that doesn't help the situation?  Absolutely, but the biggest issue for Hamas and Hezbollah is that Israel exists at all.

  • Hook 'Em 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Don't know if this has been posted as there's no time stamp. I've been away from my computer most of the day so don't know if it's been discussed. I also do not trust the IDF to be completely on the level, especially if they did (even accidentally) bombed the hospital in Gaza.

https://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2023/10/18/idf-audio-allegedly-capturing-hamas-operatives-gaza-hospital-bts-vpx.cnn

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Tonesky said:

 

Not trying to be a dick.  Maybe there is an obvious example I am unable to recall.  Please share historical successful examples of this.

Exactly why peace is impossible but a weakened terrorist organization is better than a stronger one. While oppression breeds hate so does a stronger terrorist organization. 
 

people act like the solution set is easy - if only Israel would stop it would start to work. That’s a nice sentiment I wish it was true it’s a crock of shit. Hell the world erupted in protests overnight on Hamas misinformation. You think misinformation would continue if Israel stopped? Spoiler alert it would not. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, C-Man said:

Don't know if this has been posted as there's no time stamp. I've been away from my computer most of the day so don't know if it's been discussed. I also do not trust the IDF to be completely on the level, especially if they did (even accidentally) bombed the hospital in Gaza.

https://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2023/10/18/idf-audio-allegedly-capturing-hamas-operatives-gaza-hospital-bts-vpx.cnn

It’s pretty well established after a day of news that israel did not bomb a hospital instead a Hamas rocket landed in a hospital parking lot. It’s also highly likely the casualties were far below 500. It’s also well established that Hamas used the explosion to spark more outrage, and it worked.

Edited by troph
  • Hook 'Em 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 minutes ago, MNLonghornFUKM said:


Not sure if you’re aware but Basically every country in the region has a level 3 or level 4 travel alert from the US state department all saying the same thing for traveling Americans : US has little control and can’t save you, draft a will, beware of terrorism, kidnapping, death.

The world is about to get another lesson in the power of atrocity propaganda and why the intended audience is at least as important as the source and the content. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Jatrain said:

Is shooting journalists in the head, building settlements, etc necessary for Israel to fight terrorism or maybe could they stop doing those things and still fight it?  Do they get free pass on all their actions because they are fighting terrorists?

 

 

I’ve said they should stop West Bank bullshit.
 

But I do not think they should disengage in eliminating Hamas or at least greatly reducing their capacity and that is war, people will die.
 

I think destroying factories, munitions storage, weapons, leaders, fighters, all of the tunnels are entirely on the table. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, babysdaddy said:

Democratic members of congress posting their truth. These two asswipes didn't say shit for days and then, when they could blame Israel for something regardless if was true or not, they were able to get a tweet out within minutes on the hospital bombing.  And they have left them up.  

I can't speak for Talib because I don't follow her on Twitter, but Ilhan Omar has been tweeting about this situation from the very beginning, and her fucking pinned tweet is condemning Hamas' actions on the day of so this seems like a pure lie.

  • Hook 'Em 1
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Jatrain said:

Is shooting journalists in the head, building settlements, etc necessary for Israel to fight terrorism or maybe could they stop doing those things and still fight it?  Do they get free pass on all their actions because they are fighting terrorists?

 

 

"Well, yes!"

-- Americans that have apparently learned nothing from America's post-9/11 actions

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, troph said:

I’ve said they should stop West Bank bullshit.
 

But I do not think they should disengage in eliminating Hamas or at least greatly reducing their capacity and that is war, people will die.
 

I think destroying factories, munitions storage, weapons, leaders, fighters, all of the tunnels are entirely on the table. 

The "West Bank bullshit" is just A) what Gaza without Hamas effectively is, and B) effectively how Israel has operated towards Palestinians since its inception/how it was created in the first place. What Israel does there isn't some unfortunate accident, it is simply their policy for how they treat even peaceful Palestinians. Hamas has no presence there, there is no excuse, but Western media will absolute never speak a word about it.

Eliminating Hamas in Gaza just lifts more barriers for Israel so they can do more settler terrorism/ethnic cleansing/colonialism/whatever the fuck you want to call it, it doesn't matter, it's all shit and a massive disaster.

I say all of that while also acknowledging that Hamas are subhuman terrorist cretins that absolutely need to be deleted from this Earth.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

"Well, yes!"

-- Americans that have apparently learned nothing from America's post-9/11 actions

First 6-12 months of Afghanistan were warranted and required. The fact that Islamic jihadists won’t go away doesn’t mean you let them strengthen and thrive.  It’s like we didn’t learn anything from pre-9/11.

I am unapologetic - terrorists should be killed and eliminated. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Brian Fantana said:

The "West Bank bullshit" is just A) what Gaza without Hamas effectively is, and B) effectively how Israel has operated towards Palestinians since its inception/how it was created in the first place. What Israel does there isn't some unfortunate accident, it is simply their policy for how they treat even peaceful Palestinians. Hamas has no presence there, there is no excuse, but Western media will absolute never speak a word about it.

Eliminating Hamas in Gaza just lifts more barriers for Israel so they can do more settler terrorism/ethnic cleansing/colonialism/whatever the fuck you want to call it, it doesn't matter, it's all shit and a massive disaster.

I say all of that while also acknowledging that Hamas are subhuman terrorist cretins that absolutely need to be deleted from this Earth.

And Palestinians have been engaging in terrorism against Israelis and Jews since even before the end of WWII. 
 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, troph said:

First 6-12 months of Afghanistan were warranted and required. The fact that Islamic jihadists won’t go away doesn’t mean you let them strengthen and thrive.  It’s like we didn’t learn anything from pre-9/11.

I am unapologetic - terrorists should be killed and eliminated. 

I don't disagree. I didn't say everything we did post-9/11 was bad, just most of it.

Terrorists should be eliminated yes, but we never seem to do the other thing which is maybe explore the reasons they exist in the first place and then maybe stop doing those things.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, troph said:

First 6-12 months of Afghanistan were warranted and required. The fact that Islamic jihadists won’t go away doesn’t mean you let them strengthen and thrive.  It’s like we didn’t learn anything from pre-9/11.

I am unapologetic - terrorists should be killed and eliminated. 

Were you a Republican twenty years ago?

  • Like 1
  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, troph said:

And Palestinians have been engaging in terrorism against Israelis and Jews since even before the end of WWII. 
 

As if to illustrate the point I made in my last post, I wonder when the movement to displace Palestinians began and why they might have started to get upset about it. I guess it is really unfortunate that Palestinians forced Israel to murder tens of thousands and displace hundreds of thousands of them. They should really work on that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The thing with people who blame Israel fail to realize is this shit has been going on since inception and will not stop. I don’t like it, but this isn’t solely Israel’s fault. And so Israel stopping won’t stop shit. And too many people apply a rational logic here. There is no rational logic. There is religious extremism and that’s it.
 

Truly it’s probably the fault of Europe and the US for enforcing a state of Israel on the area - that ship sailed hundreds and hundreds of years ago. it’s also understandable after the holocaust to designate a nation state. But damn.
 

But to continue to blame israel as the origin of the problem is just not accurate.

  • Hook 'Em 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, F250 said:

Were you a Republican twenty years ago?

I was and I would still support military action in Afghanistan. Hell I’m supporting military action against Hamas right now. Granted if Israel stopped and said we’ve gotten enough of Hamas leadership let’s have a ceasefire I would be happy - though I think Hamas isn’t interested they want more fighting.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, troph said:

The thing with people who blame Israel fail to realize is this shit has been going on since inception and will not stop. I don’t like it, but this isn’t solely Israel’s fault. And so Israel stopping won’t stop shit. And too many people apply a rational logic here. There is no rational logic. There is religious extremism and that’s it.
 

Truly it’s probably the fault of Europe and the US for enforcing a state of Israel on the area - that ship sailed hundreds and hundreds of years ago. it’s also understandable after the holocaust to designate a nation state. But damn.
 

But to continue to blame israel as the origin of the problem is just not accurate.

It is also inaccurate to blame ordinary Palestinians.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

As if to illustrate the point I made in my last post, I wonder when the movement to displace Palestinians began and why they might have started to get upset about it. I guess it is really unfortunate that Palestinians forced Israel to murder tens of thousands and displace hundreds of thousands of them. They should really work on that.

Jewish massacres took place in Palestine long before there was a Jewish state. 

  • Hook 'Em 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, troph said:

The thing with people who blame Israel fail to realize is this shit has been going on since inception and will not stop. I don’t like it, but this isn’t solely Israel’s fault. And so Israel stopping won’t stop shit. And too many people apply a rational logic here. There is no rational logic. There is religious extremism and that’s it.
 

Truly it’s probably the fault of Europe and the US for enforcing a state of Israel on the area - that ship sailed hundreds and hundreds of years ago. it’s also understandable after the holocaust to designate a nation state. But damn.
 

But to continue to blame israel as the origin of the problem is just not accurate.

No one here is trying to solely blame Israel. You're just making that up in your head. There are so many parties that shoulder pieces of the blame in this situation it's frankly hard to keep track. My issue is simply the absolute bullshit, dogwater, smooth brained dipshit narrative of how they have been forced into every awful fucking thing they have done since 1948.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, troph said:

I was and I would still support military action in Afghanistan. Hell I’m supporting military action against Hamas right now. Granted if Israel stopped and said we’ve gotten enough of Hamas leadership let’s have a ceasefire I would be happy - though I think Hamas isn’t interested they want more fighting.

I figured so. Over the last few years there hasn't been a lot of variety in political discussions due to the Trump era. This subject seems to have raised some of the political differences that exist with the Republicans that have recently left the GOP and their new political allies. It's no coincidence that a lot of the former Republicans don't sound much different than the current Republicans over in the DT thread.

 

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Brian Fantana said:

No one here is trying to solely blame Israel. You're just making that up in your head. There are so many parties that shoulder pieces of the blame in this situation it's frankly hard to keep track. My issue is simply the absolute bullshit, dogwater, smooth brained dipshit narrative of how they have been forced into every awful fucking thing they have done since 1948.

Dude - like half a dozen of you ONLY talk about what Israel must do.

  • Hook 'Em 2
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, F250 said:

I figured so. Over the last few years there hasn't been a lot of variety in political discussions due to the Trump era. This subject seems to have raised some of the political differences that exist with the Republicans that have recently left the GOP and their new political allies. It's no coincidence that a lot of the former Republicans don't sound much different than the current Republicans over in the DT thread.

 

I don’t have tolerance for terrorism. that may be my only hold over from the early 2000’s. 
 

I wish I could be a pacifist but I gave that up too when I realized libertarianism is a juvenile world view sometime in my early 30’s. 
 

I very much wish for peace but to be honest I don’t see it ever happening. I don’t think israel sees it happening and I don’t think Hamas wants it if it means anything other than the state is dissolved and Jews are eliminated.

You really can’t do anything with that. 

  • Hook 'Em 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Part of the reason for that is because there is no corresponding Palestinian state.

I truly support that but I also recognize as soon as there is such a state israel will be facing a “military” orders of magnitude stronger than Hamas and hezbollah right now. 

let me be super clear - I support dual state solution and I wish both sides could find peace - but I think the reason israel is reticent to lay down arms and let that happen is because it’s not enough for those who have power and military authority on the other side. I’m not supporting Israel’s refusal to move that direction I’m simply saying I suspect they see it as a death sentence not a path to peace.

Edited by troph
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, troph said:

Dude - like half a dozen of you ONLY talk about what Israel must do.

After all this time, you really can't understand why? They're the ones with the power here. There can be no peace, it's absolutely impossible unless one of two things happen:

  1. You kill all 5 million Palestinians living in Gaza and the West Bank OR
  2. You stop the ethnic cleansing. which is kind of the major thing that causes groups like Hamas to arise in the first place

There is absolutely no way to move forward without one of two of those things happening. Who has the power to do either of those things? Hint: It's not Palestinians

If the shoe was on the other foot here, we are talking about what Palestine must do. But they can't do a fucking thing. They have no power, against Israel OR Hamas. That's why we talk about what Israel must do.

  • Hook 'Em 3
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just drove past the Consulate General of Israel in Houston, where hundreds are gathering in protest.  The chant: "We don't want two states; we want '48."  Not hard to interpret that Palestinians (not just Hamas, et al) believe Israel is illegitimate and that there should be a single Palestinian state from the river to the sea.....  But, I am sure that is a new belief, forced upon them by years of Israeli oppression.

  • Hook 'Em 1
  • Fuck You 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, troph said:

I truly support that but I also recognize as soon as there is such a state israel will be facing a military orders of magnitude stronger than Hamas and hezbollah right now. 

let me be super clear - I support that - but I think the reason israel is reticent to lay down arms and let that happen is because it’s not enough for those who have power and military authority on the other side. I’m not supporting Israel’s refusal to move that direction I’m simply saying I suspect they see it as a death sentence not a path to peace.

But nowhere near as strong as Israel and its allies.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, troph said:

I don’t have tolerance for terrorism. that may be my only hold over from the early 2000’s. 
 

I wish I could be a pacifist but I gave that up too when I realized libertarianism is a juvenile world view sometime in my early 30’s. 
 

I very much wish for peace but to be honest I don’t see it ever happening. I don’t think israel sees it happening and I don’t think Hamas wants it if it means anything other than the state is dissolved and Jews are eliminated.

You really can’t do anything with that. 

In my view framing this as a terrorism problem is a mistake because it ignores all of nuances that are involved in this conflict.

It was the same mistake that the U.S. made under Dubya during that entire circle jerk of freedom fries.

I only brought this up because your rhetoric sounds like the greatest hits from the war on terror.

 

  • Hook 'Em 5
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Tonesky said:

Just drove past the Consulate General of Israel in Houston, where hundreds are gathering in protest.  The chant: "We don't want two states; we want '48."  Not hard to interpret that Palestinians (not just Hamas, et al) believe Israel is illegitimate and that there should be a single Palestinian state from the river to the sea.....  But, I am sure that is a new belief, forced upon them by years of Israeli oppression.

That sounds like politics.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Tonesky said:

Just drove past the Consulate General of Israel in Houston, where hundreds are gathering in protest.  The chant: "We don't want two states; we want '48."  Not hard to interpret that Palestinians (not just Hamas, et al) believe Israel is illegitimate and that there should be a single Palestinian state from the river to the sea.....  But, I am sure that is a new belief, forced upon them by years of Israeli oppression.

You mean like there used to be, before it was forcibly taken from them? I can't imagine why they'd hold such a belief, you fucking dumbass.

  • Hook 'Em 2
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, F250 said:

I figured so. Over the last few years there hasn't been a lot of variety in political discussions due to the Trump era. This subject seems to have raised some of the political differences that exist with the Republicans that have recently left the GOP and their new political allies. It's no coincidence that a lot of the former Republicans don't sound much different than the current Republicans over in the DT thread.

 

What are you even saying?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, F250 said:

In my view framing this as a terrorism problem is a mistake because it ignores all of nuances that are involved in this conflict.

It was the same mistake that the U.S. made under Dubya during that entire circle jerk of freedom fries.

I only brought this up because your rhetoric sounds like the greatest hits from the war on terror.

 

I think the last 10 days are terrorism. 
 

the rest of it is a fucking quagmire and to tell the story would be like Chunk spilling his guts under threat of having his hand spun in a blender…. And then… and then… and then… 

 

  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

You mean like there used to be, before it was forcibly taken from them? I can't imagine why they'd hold such a belief, you fucking dumbass.

This goes way back before that and you know it. Yes the Brits and Americans acquiesced to the Zionists after WWII and maybe they shouldn’t have. I’ll concede that and have on this thread. But post holocaust and after pogroms all over the world frankly it’s hard to say what should have been done.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, troph said:

This goes way back before that and you know it. Yes the Brits and Americans acquiesced to the Zionists after WWII and maybe they shouldn’t have. I’ll concede that and have on this thread. But post holocaust and after pogroms all over the world frankly it’s hard to say what should have been done.

Of course, but that doesn't mean it wasn't an awful thing to do and that Palestinians don't have a right to be angry about a forced, mass displacement from their lands. It's absolutely unreal the amount of arm twisting you have to do to get anyone in the Western world to admit that.

Just upthread, a few posts ago we have some goo-brained moron incredulous about them simply wanting back what was taken from them. The AUDACITY.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites



×
×
  • Create New...