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SmokeyBear1861

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12 minutes ago, G650 said:

Do I need to post Sykes Picot again

Possibly. It’s pretty simple, most places on earth that are in perpetual conflict are due to stupid fucking Europeans mostly Brits drawing lines on a map like a kid with a crayon. 
 

10 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Until diplomacy wins out.

I’m optimistic by nature but you clearly are more than I am.

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21 minutes ago, troph said:

This goes way back before that and you know it. Yes the Brits and Americans acquiesced to the Zionists after WWII and maybe they shouldn’t have. I’ll concede that and have on this thread. But post holocaust and after pogroms all over the world frankly it’s hard to say what should have been done.

The Palestinians are sadly far from unique in getting fucked over by modern map drawing and finding themselves in a country they don’t like with a government that takes a shit on them. That’s all true. Ask the Kurds or the Tibetans or the Uighurs or the Rohingya. The Uighurs are just getting stuffed into old-fashioned prisons, not open air prisons). 
 

Also true is that we hear about them nonstop because there is a significant portion of people among their oppressors who would like to find a modus vivendi and turn the heat down if terrorists would just stop blowing shit up for a hot minute. Try going like two years without a rocket attack and see if Bibi is still electable.  
 

Trying to redraw maps you don’t like through violence is a loser game whether you’re Russia or Hamas. Better to come to terms with the borders and try to find a way to live with it 

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8 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

Of course, but that doesn't mean it wasn't an awful thing to do and that Palestinians don't have a right to be angry about a forced, mass displacement from their lands. It's absolutely unreal the amount of arm twisting you have to do to get anyone in the Western world to admit that.

Just upthread, a few posts ago we have some goo-brained moron incredulous about them simply wanting back what was taken from them. The AUDACITY.

I readily admit that. I also don’t see how you ignore the holocaust, pogroms, and other genocidal acts against Jews and not give them their ancestral land in the 1940s. It’s a fucked up situation. Lots of damned if you do and damned if you don’t. 

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5 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Trying to redraw maps you don’t like through violence is a loser game whether you’re Russia or Hamas. Better to come to terms with the borders and try to find a way to live with it 

Eh, half the people you listed would disagree as China is taking their country by violence.

1 minute ago, troph said:

their ancestral land in the 1940s

Say what now

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1 minute ago, troph said:

I readily admit that. I also don’t see how you ignore the holocaust, pogroms, and other genocidal acts against Jews and not give them their ancestral land in the 1940s. It’s a fucked up situation. Lots of damned if you do and damned if you don’t. 

Native Americans be like whaaaaaaaa?

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5 minutes ago, G650 said:

Eh, half the people you listed would disagree as China is taking their country by violence.

Say what now

Dude you know Jewish people claim it at their land of origin. This shit goes back to the founding of the Abrahamic religions - which is as much of the problem as the Brits fetish for drawing lines on maps.

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5 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Native Americans be like whaaaaaaaa?

 

2 minutes ago, troph said:

Dude you know Jewish people claim it at their land of origin. This shit goes back to the founding of the Abrahamic religions. 

 

1 minute ago, troph said:

See above.

Abrahamic religions have been around for about 4,500 years, Native Americans were here 20,000+ years ago.

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3 minutes ago, troph said:

Dude you know Jewish people claim it at their land of origin. This shit goes back to the founding of the Abrahamic religions - which is as much of the problem as the Brits fetish for drawing lines on maps.

Dude its been continuously settled since Neolithic times by a smorgasbord of people.

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Just now, DixonHur said:

 

 

Abrahamic religions have been around for about 4,500 years, Native Americans were here 20,000+ years ago.

I’m not being the arbiter here I’m simply stating the position. Folks say the Palestinians were displaced that’s true. But this history isn’t 100 years old it’s thousands of years old and there certainly is a view that these lands were Hebrew lands from way back. I’m simply saying that is part of the problem too.

otherwise start another thread. And as soon as you and Dennison agree to give your homes back to the tribes they belong to I’ll do the same. 

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3 minutes ago, G650 said:

Dude it’s been continuously settled since Neolithic times by a smorgasbord of people.

I think you misunderstood me. I’m not definitely saying who it belongs to.

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50 minutes ago, Tonesky said:

Just drove past the Consulate General of Israel in Houston, where hundreds are gathering in protest.  The chant: "We don't want two states; we want '48."  Not hard to interpret that Palestinians (not just Hamas, et al) believe Israel is illegitimate and that there should be a single Palestinian state from the river to the sea.....  But, I am sure that is a new belief, forced upon them by years of Israeli oppression.

 

47 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

You mean like there used to be, before it was forcibly taken from them? I can't imagine why they'd hold such a belief, you fucking dumbass.

Totally aggy to pick the beginning date the facilitates your desired conclusion.  There was never a Palestine.  They had no state taken from them.  Yes, some fled under duress, but most left as instructed by the surrounding Arab states, who promised they could return after we destroy Israel.  Conversely, there were Jews there before the Zionists arrived, as in, pretty much forever - except of course, for those ethnically cleansed, as you would say. 

But, nice of you to basically admit your end game - a single Palestinian state.  I may continue to poke at you for sport, but fuck you to the end of time.

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13 minutes ago, G650 said:

Eh, half the people you listed would disagree as China is taking their country by violence.

Say what now


That’s kind of my point, the Palestinians have a much more malleable and influenceable counter-party to work with.  If a Tibetan independence movement killed 1000+ Han Chinese tomorrow, Xi would not be accepting a visit from Biden on how he needs to open a humanitarian corridor. In the real world, the weaker party is the one that needs to climb down and unlike the Tibetans or Uighurs— the Palestinians could actually make some real forward progress if they did. 

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1 minute ago, troph said:

I think you misunderstood me. I’m not definitely saying who it belongs to. I’m saying Jewish people claim it theirs too from thousands of years ago. This dispute to the claim to the land didn’t start 100 years ago.  That’s simply a comment to those saying Palestinians were displaced from their land - true and only part of the story.

Gotcha. You are correct theres been disputes in the region for thousands of years, but no, this particular dispute is absolutely 100 years old and very specific.

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1 minute ago, 956 Worldwide said:


That’s kind of my point, the Palestinians have a much more malleable and influenceable counter-party to work with.  If a Tibetan independence movement killed 1000+ Han Chinese tomorrow, Xi would not be accepting a visit from Biden on how he needs to open a humanitarian corridor. In the real world, the weaker party is the one that needs to climb down and unlike the Tibetans or Uighurs— the Palestinians could actually make some real forward progress if they did. 

Well you agree violence does indeed work then. Its just who happens to be partaking in it. We will have to disagree on the latter part though. I sincerely hope they desist in terror, but I have dim hopes they will make any progress. I'd certainly love to be proved wrong, but unless western power leans on Israel I just don't see it.

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5 minutes ago, G650 said:

Gotcha. You are correct theres been disputes in the region for thousands of years, but no, this particular dispute is absolutely 100 years old and very specific.

this specific problem is 100 years old I agree but the problem that was created 100 years ago didn’t just come out of nowhere. At this point we are quibbling over shit we agree about. I don’t need to do that. 
 

ps - In case you thought differently I’m not a zionist. I’m a realist. We are where we are. I have no viable solutions. 

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23 minutes ago, troph said:

I readily admit that. I also don’t see how you ignore the holocaust, pogroms, and other genocidal acts against Jews and not give them their ancestral land in the 1940s. It’s a fucked up situation. Lots of damned if you do and damned if you don’t. 

 

21 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Native Americans be like whaaaaaaaa?

So, what is the statute of limitations?  The Palestinians are the only refugees with a perpetual status, who both refuse to, and are refused by, their host countries to make a new life.  What about them and their status is so different than all other refugee populations ever?  Oh that's right, its the Jews....

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1 minute ago, G650 said:

Well you agree violence does indeed work then. Its just who happens to be partaking in it. We will have to disagree on the latter part though. I sincerely hope they desist in terror, but I have dim hopes they will make any progress. I'd certainly love to be proved wrong, but unless western power leans on Israel I just don't see it.

I think that history is full of violence working, unfortunately. Overwhelming violence has really been the most common solution to these intractable problems. It’s a rare counterparty that’s And's willing to give concessions from a position of strength, and you need to jump on that even if you don’t get everything you want. 

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3 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

I think that history is full of violence working, unfortunately. Overwhelming violence has really been the most common solution to these intractable problems. It’s a rare counterparty that’s And's willing to give concessions from a position of strength, and you need to jump on that even if you don’t get everything you want. 

Yeah,  I don't disagree with that, I just don't see it any of it happening without a much greater outside force influencing the proceedings.

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Sure, individual Palestinians and groups of them have a legitimate grievance over being displaced, just like any "man."

But to say there was ever anything but a region of Palestine with ever-shifting borders and dozens of rulers of varying faiths before 1948 is nonsense.  

It has religious significance to Christians and Jews, and later (6-10 centuries later) to Muslims, but only really because of the Crusades, where Jerusalem was a hockey puck, eventually ending up in the hands of caliphates.

So, yeah, Sykes Picot chopped it up a bit.  Then of course the UN Mandate actually made a state out of it.  Really all that materially different from the neglectful rule of the other dozen or so absentee landlords that have controlled it over the millenia?

 

 

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1 minute ago, G650 said:

Yeah,  I don't disagree with that, I just don't see it any of it happening without a much greater outside force influencing the proceedings.

Do you think the West would be more or less likely to lean on Israel to let up just a bit if Hamas chilled out with the rockets for say, two years? Conversely, do you think that Israel has more or less of a free hand after what happened on October 7? 

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8 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Do you think the West would be more or less likely to lean on Israel to let up just a bit if Hamas chilled out with the rockets for say, two years? Conversely, do you think that Israel has more or less of a free hand after what happened on October 7? 

No to both.

 

ETA: When I say no they don't have a free hand, I mean wholesale destruction. I fully support them taking out every last member of Hamas.

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1 hour ago, Tonesky said:

Just drove past the Consulate General of Israel in Houston, where hundreds are gathering in protest.  The chant: "We don't want two states; we want '48."  Not hard to interpret that Palestinians (not just Hamas, et al) believe Israel is illegitimate and that there should be a single Palestinian state from the river to the sea.....  But, I am sure that is a new belief, forced upon them by years of Israeli oppression.

Whose sock is this?

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18 minutes ago, Tonesky said:

 

So, what is the statute of limitations?  The Palestinians are the only refugees with a perpetual status, who both refuse to, and are refused by, their host countries to make a new life.  What about them and their status is so different than all other refugee populations ever?  Oh that's right, its the Jews....

You're right, I forgot that there definitely aren't millions of Palestinians living outside of Israel/Gaza/West Bank, and they definitely have the ability to leave. They're just treading water in the Mediterranean.

Oh, don't forget, we have to continue conflating Jewish people with Israel. You fucking racist piece of shit. Fuck off.

Edited by Brian Fantana
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1 hour ago, Tonesky said:

Just drove past the Consulate General of Israel in Houston, where hundreds are gathering in protest.  The chant: "We don't want two states; we want '48."  Not hard to interpret that Palestinians (not just Hamas, et al) believe Israel is illegitimate and that there should be a single Palestinian state from the river to the sea.....  But, I am sure that is a new belief, forced upon them by years of Israeli oppression.

 

3 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

Whose sock is this?

I’ve never posted under any other name on this site or its predecessors. 

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27 minutes ago, Tonesky said:

So, what is the statute of limitations?  The Palestinians are the only refugees with a perpetual status, who both refuse to, and are refused by, their host countries to make a new life.  What about them and their status is so different than all other refugee populations ever?  Oh that's right, its the Jews....

Host countries like the United States?

 

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1 hour ago, F250 said:

I figured so. Over the last few years there hasn't been a lot of variety in political discussions due to the Trump era. This subject seems to have raised some of the political differences that exist with the Republicans that have recently left the GOP and their new political allies. It's no coincidence that a lot of the former Republicans don't sound much different than the current Republicans over in the DT thread.

It also exposes some of the positions that are rooted in evangelical and fundamentalist christian indoctrination. Even after some posters have moved beyond the theology, some of that worldview is hard to shake. Israel is offered a singular and unique dispensation. 

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7 minutes ago, Tonesky said:

You fucking terrorist apologist piece of shit. Fuck off. 

Oh, I feel real smart and superior now. 

I mean, you're the one who stated that the only plausible explanation for sympathizing with the Palestinian plight is anti-Semitism, so let's not act like we're above the name calling.

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Biden telling Hamas that they “gotta learn how to shoot straight” is totally fucking awesome and makes me want to have more old-ass presidents. 
 

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/press-briefings/2023/10/18/press-gaggle-by-president-biden-and-nsc-coordinator-for-strategic-communications-john-kirby-ramstein-air-base-germany/

 

Quote

And, look — and I’m not suggesting that Hamas deliberately did it, either.  It’s that old thing: You’ve got to learn how to shoot straight.  You know, and — and it’s not the first time Hamas has launched something that didn’t function very well.

 

 

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1 hour ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Do you think the West would be more or less likely to lean on Israel to let up just a bit if Hamas chilled out with the rockets for say, two years? Conversely, do you think that Israel has more or less of a free hand after what happened on October 7? 

If Hamas was gone tomorrow, what would Gaza look like?

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1 hour ago, Tonesky said:

 

So, what is the statute of limitations?  The Palestinians are the only refugees with a perpetual status, who both refuse to, and are refused by, their host countries to make a new life.  What about them and their status is so different than all other refugee populations ever?  Oh that's right, its the Jews....

 

1 hour ago, Brian Fantana said:

You're right, I forgot that there definitely aren't millions of Palestinians living outside of Israel/Gaza/West Bank, and they definitely have the ability to leave. They're just treading water in the Mediterranean.

 

49 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Host countries like the United States?

 

Oh come on, the the USA is not a "host" country, and the Palestinians living in the USA (and other countries) are not refugees.  I am referring to the Palestinians, who remain refugees, including those in Jordan, Lebanon, and other "host" countries, who desire they remain perpetual refugees.

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48 minutes ago, Foosters said:

I mean, you're the one who stated that the only plausible explanation for sympathizing with the Palestinian plight is anti-Semitism, so let's not act like we're above the name calling.

I did not remotely state that the only plausible explanation for sympathizing with the Palestinian plight is anti-Semitism.  I detest Netanyahu and Likud.  I am highly critical of Israeli policy.  I am sympathetic to the Palestinians.  But, I recognize that much so called Palestinian sympathy includes a good dose of anti-Semitism, including singling out Israel for disparate attention, grievance, and elimination.  Why, for example, does this conversation never include demand that the stolen land of Jordan be returned to the Palestinians?

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3 minutes ago, Tonesky said:

singling out Israel for disparate attention

Is it because Israel is Jewish, or is it because of Israel's behavior towards Palestine (or the fact that it uniquely receives $4B from us every year)?

Quote

grievance

Is it because Israel is Jewish, or is it because of Israel has aggrieved the people of Palestine?

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elimination

This is conflation. Simply sympathizing with the poor, oppressed people of Gaza means I am an anti-Semite? Or that I advocate for "elimination" of Israel or of Jews? That's some BPD-caliber "all or nothing" thinking.

Far from being "singled out," Israel receives criticism that is proportional to the special treatment it receives.

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8 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

Is it because Israel is Jewish, or is it because of Israel's behavior towards Palestine (or the fact that it uniquely receives $4B from us every year)?

Is it because Israel is Jewish, or is it because of Israel has aggrieved the people of Palestine?

This is conflation. Simply sympathizing with the poor, oppressed people of Gaza means I am an anti-Semite? Or that I advocate for "elimination" of Israel or of Jews? That's some BPD-caliber "all or nothing" thinking.

Far from being "singled out," Israel receives criticism that is proportional to the special treatment it receives.

Horseshit.  I explicitly said that I don't suggest Palestinian sympathy is anti-Semitism.  Israel has been singled out for disparate treatment as long as it has existed.  Again, what about Jordan's behavior towards "Palestine?"  They stole far more land than Israel is accused of stealing.  And, they treat the Palestinians like shit.  If the refugees in Jordan began regular terrorist attacks on the King and things he cares about, how do you think he would respond?  But, never a word about Jordan.  The difference must be that we don't care as much about those Palestinians.

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23 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

Have you ever read the Old Testament?

They killed and were killed. Yes. I didn’t want to bring religious texts in here I think that discussion is counter productive but it only proves my point (assuming you ignore the god’s chosen people horseshit).

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5 minutes ago, Tonesky said:

Horseshit.  I explicitly said that I don't suggest Palestinian sympathy is anti-Semitism.  Israel has been singled out for disparate treatment as long as it has existed.  Again, what about Jordan's behavior towards "Palestine?"  They stole far more land than Israel is accused of stealing.  And, they treat the Palestinians like shit.  If the refugees in Jordan began regular terrorist attacks on the King and things he cares about, how do you think he would respond?  But, never a word about Jordan.  The difference must be that we don't care as much about those Palestinians.

We send $4B annually to Jordan? Does AJPAC exist? I don't think Jordan has been running an open-air prison, either.

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1 minute ago, chainsaw said:

We send $4B annually to Jordan? Does AJPAC exist? I don't think Jordan has been running an open-air prison, either.

Precisely, the world cares (negatively) about Israel more than it actually sympathizes with the Palestinians. 

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Just now, chainsaw said:

Nobody would be concerned with Israel if it were to leave Palestinians and its neighbors alone.

Still right on point - there would be no continuing sympathy for the Palestinian refugees living miserable lives in Syria, Lebanon, and Jordan.

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12 minutes ago, MC Fresh Breath said:

 what other threads do you post in?  you sure became active in this one, and I've never seen this handle before.

I've got about 525 posts and fewer than 25 on this board in the past week.  It isn't complicated.  Click on my name, and then (at top right) on "see their activity."  Mostly Football and Food & Travel threads.  Peace.

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