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SmokeyBear1861

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Just now, Anastasis said:

There is no irony there troph, however much you may wish to manufacturer it for rhetorical value. 

You need to go sit down and break bread with trans kids and their parents bro. You are top five worst offenders on this board. 
 

frankly, I don’t think anyone on this thread wants this violence, if anyone does they are in an extremely small minority.
 

I think perspectives are skewed (I’m sure I’m subject to that too) but I think most see the impossibility of a positive outcome for the Palestinian  civilians and for some of the Israeli civilians.

I think the cause of that impossibility is being debated but no one - or only a very small minority of posters - are treating anyone involved in this conflict as a cartoon. 

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25 minutes ago, troph said:

It’s what some of us speculated was going on when the attacks first occurred. Connections to Russia/Ukraine are nearly assured at this point. 

He lives in Qatar. This shit happens whenever they want. This is a scene for the Arab world, on a Friday. 

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1 minute ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

I speculated the same thing. Biden and Blinken are clearly pursuing a primary objective  of keeping the conflict local, but that may not be possible. 

If Iran joins holy shit. Seems the US will be under tremendous pressure to engage. And with that the door opens in the East and then three theaters and a world war that won’t be called one. 

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1 minute ago, InkaUtexas said:

He lives in Qatar. This shit happens whenever they want. This is a scene for the Arab world, on a Friday. 

Well folks have been trying to say it’s Hamas only. Maybe it was maybe it wasn’t but it’s about to be Iran too. 

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1 minute ago, troph said:

You need to go sit down and break bread with trans kids and their parents bro. You are top five worst offenders on this board. 

It’s pretty funny that you run to hide behind your trans deflection on this one. And if you recall in our exchanges re the medical evidence for hormoning up youth, I actually told you that I hope that we could sit at hops and thyme and grab a beer and a bite and talk it over. You told me to never approach you and talk to you in public if I thought I recognized you. So tell me more about irony Troph. Or just fall back to some of that fundamentalist upbringing brain damage that apparently hangs on underneath as it relates to the subject of this particular thread. 

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21 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

It’s pretty funny that you run to hide behind your trans deflection on this one. And if you recall in our exchanges re the medical evidence for hormoning up youth, I actually told you that I hope that we could sit at hops and thyme and grab a beer and a bite and talk it over. You told me to never approach you and talk to you in public if I thought I recognized you. So tell me more about irony Troph. Or just fall back to some of that fundamentalist upbringing brain damage that apparently hangs on underneath as it relates to the subject of this particular thread. 

I’m not hiding behind shit.  And there’s zero chance I’m sitting down with you precisely because of what you espouse. You think I owe you this sit down so you can tell me I’m wrong or so we can laugh it off over a beer and you can then say you sat down with the trans woman see you aren’t so bad. The fact that I refuse should tell you exactly how FUCKED up your positions are.
 

As for the topic you raised - a mourning Palestinian or Jewish or Israeli family? I’ll sit down … if they would have me. Because you see it’s the oppressed or persecuted that gets to choose whether to have that meeting not the oppressor or the persecutor.

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4 minutes ago, longhornmatt said:

“Honey, I’ll be home late tonight.  No, not work this time.  I have to meet a stranger from the internet who I always argue with about politics. Yeah, it got pretty heated, so we thought it would be better to find out who the other person is in real life, get some alcohol involved, and then continue our discussion in person.  That’s how you de-escalate the situation.”

Sounds like something Hamas and the Jews should try.

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10 minutes ago, longhornmatt said:

“Honey, I’ll be home late tonight.  No, not work this time.  I have to meet a stranger from the internet who I always argue with about politics. Yeah, it got pretty heated, so we thought it would be better to find out who the other person is in real life, get some alcohol involved, and then continue our discussion in person.  That’s how you de-escalate the situation.”

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1 hour ago, troph said:

I’m not hiding behind shit.  And there’s zero chance I’m sitting down with you precisely because of what you espouse. You think I owe you this sit down so you can tell me I’m wrong or so we can laugh it off over a beer and you can then say you sat down with the trans woman see you aren’t so bad. The fact that I refuse should tell you exactly how FUCKED up your positions are.

I don’t think you owe me anything. I think that you contort yourself and manufacture irony while it drips out of your pores. 

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4 hours ago, SydneyCarton said:

“If Israel doesn’t want their civilians slaughtered and raped, they should probably do a better job gathering intelligence” isn’t exactly an insight without implication and cruelty.

That's not exactly or even remotely what I said.

I'm referring to a specific decision not to act on intelligence that Israel had about this attack. If that is what happened, and one of my loved ones were harmed in this attack, I would consider my government firmly responsible for those harms. True, Hamas is also responsible, but Hamas isn't answerable to me and I was never asked to trust Hamas.

How would the government justify that decision? Did they view these Israelis as a worthwhile sacrifice in exchange for obtaining a pretext to carry out the genocide of Palestinians that the government had been wanting to carry out all along? If so, that ranks among the most callous crimes against humanity to have ever been committed.

That's completely different from a failure of the intelligence agencies. I'm sure those things can happen, but I have a hard time believing it when Israel has so much of our (US and European) money, Israel has one of the most sophisticated surveillance apparatuses that includes untraceable spyware that can be deployed anywhere, and the amount of planning and coordination with hundreds of people who lack anything beyond a 5th grade education doesn't seem possible without there being someone that somehow would have spilled the beans ahead of time, when you consider the fact that, even when you have a small number of smart people who are paranoid about privacy, leaks manage to happen.

Most importantly, in a discussion centered on the moral distinction between self-defense and retribution, we cannot ignore the opportunities Israel had to assume a purely defensive posture.

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26 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

That's not exactly or even remotely what I said.

I'm referring to a specific decision not to act on intelligence that Israel had about this attack. If that is what happened, and one of my loved ones were harmed in this attack, I would consider my government firmly responsible for those harms. True, Hamas is also responsible, but Hamas isn't answerable to me and I was never asked to trust Hamas.

How would the government justify that decision? Did they view these Israelis as a worthwhile sacrifice in exchange for obtaining a pretext to carry out the genocide of Palestinians that the government had been wanting to carry out all along? If so, that ranks among the most callous crimes against humanity to have ever been committed.

That's completely different from a failure of the intelligence agencies. I'm sure those things can happen, but I have a hard time believing it when Israel has so much of our (US and European) money, Israel has one of the most sophisticated surveillance apparatuses that includes untraceable spyware that can be deployed anywhere, and the amount of planning and coordination with hundreds of people who lack anything beyond a 5th grade education doesn't seem possible without there being someone that somehow would have spilled the beans ahead of time, when you consider the fact that, even when you have a small number of smart people who are paranoid about privacy, leaks manage to happen.

Most importantly, in a discussion centered on the moral distinction between self-defense and retribution, we cannot ignore the opportunities Israel had to assume a purely defensive posture.

“If” is the only word worth paying attention to in this entire screed. Again, pure conspiracy theory on open display. 

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6 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

I’ve never been to a quincenera where any Mexicans say “next year, in Mexico City.”

I've been to one where an old man stood up on a chair and yelled "Viva Monterrey! Viva Rockport!" then his wife yelled "shut up, your drunk."

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5 hours ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

And then a few hours later

This is a very dangerous moment. 

Iran is in no position to project power a thousand miles away.

Them and Hamas' only hope is that Israel plays by a different rulebook than they do.  Israel can level Gaza and we have to carrier groups off the coast giving them the green light.

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5 hours ago, longhornmatt said:

“Honey, I’ll be home late tonight.  No, not work this time.  I have to meet a stranger from the internet who I always argue with about politics. Yeah, it got pretty heated, so we thought it would be better to find out who the other person is in real life, get some alcohol involved, and then continue our discussion in person.  That’s how you de-escalate the situation.”

quotev GIF

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8 hours ago, chainsaw said:

That's not exactly or even remotely what I said.

I'm referring to a specific decision not to act on intelligence that Israel had about this attack. If that is what happened, and one of my loved ones were harmed in this attack, I would consider my government firmly responsible for those harms. True, Hamas is also responsible, but Hamas isn't answerable to me and I was never asked to trust Hamas.

How would the government justify that decision? Did they view these Israelis as a worthwhile sacrifice in exchange for obtaining a pretext to carry out the genocide of Palestinians that the government had been wanting to carry out all along? If so, that ranks among the most callous crimes against humanity to have ever been committed.

That's completely different from a failure of the intelligence agencies. I'm sure those things can happen, but I have a hard time believing it when Israel has so much of our (US and European) money, Israel has one of the most sophisticated surveillance apparatuses that includes untraceable spyware that can be deployed anywhere, and the amount of planning and coordination with hundreds of people who lack anything beyond a 5th grade education doesn't seem possible without there being someone that somehow would have spilled the beans ahead of time, when you consider the fact that, even when you have a small number of smart people who are paranoid about privacy, leaks manage to happen.

Most importantly, in a discussion centered on the moral distinction between self-defense and retribution, we cannot ignore the opportunities Israel had to assume a purely defensive posture.

It’s what you said. Israel was responsible for this because you believe they ignored intelligence. You can hem and haw over my portrayal of your post, but in this instance “this” was the rape and murder of a thousand Israeli citizens, including children. and you believe Israel is responsible. 
 

You obviously believe it. Own it. 

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8 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

“If” is the only word worth paying attention to in this entire screed. Again, pure conspiracy theory on open display. 

I disagree. The whole thing is worth paying attention to, it’s the continued portrayal of an idea this entire thread that’s driven me batshit. Now back to my fucking exile. 

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For @chainsaw et al:

Quote

...
Certainly, the Hamas attacks in Israel were a surprise, just as 9/11 was, but it is premature to label it an intelligence failure. We don’t know yet what Israel’s intelligence agencies such as Shin Bet were saying about Hamas to Israeli policymakers, just as Americans had no idea what the CIA was saying to the Bush administration about al Qaeda’s intentions until at least a year after the 9/11 attacks had happened.

Blaming a lack of intelligence for policy failures is an easy dodge for government officials because, typically, the spy agencies can’t publicly defend themselves on the facts, which are often classified, and, in any event, they work for the policymakers.
...
In her 1962 study, “Pearl Harbor: Warning and Decision,” Roberta Wohlstetter showed how when it came to the Japanese surprise attack on the US naval base on December 7, 1941, separating the “signals” from the “noise” was a lot easier after the fact, writing that, “After the event, of course, a signal is always crystal clear; we can now see what disaster it was signaling since the disaster has now occurred. But before the event, it is obscure and pregnant with conflicting meanings. It comes to the observer embedded in an atmosphere of ‘noise’, i.e., in all sorts of information that is useless and irrelevant for predicting the disaster.”
...
The mistake the Israelis made 50 years ago, and the Bush administration made before 9/11, despite intelligence warnings, was to underestimate the capabilities of their nations’ enemies. We don’t know yet what the Netanyahu government was told, if anything, about a possible attack from Gaza, but given the large-scale nature of the attacks, it seems conceivable that there were some indications that an attack was coming.

Israelis will likely only find out if there is a real demand for timely accountability and if the Netanyahu government agrees to provide it.

For now, understandably, the Israelis are focused on the ongoing conflict. “We were surprised this morning,” Lt. Col. Richard Hecht, the international spokesperson for the Israeli Defense Forces, told CNN Saturday. “About failures, I prefer not to talk at this point right now. We’re in war. We’re fighting. I’m sure this will be a big question once this event is over.”

“I assume the intelligence question will be talked about down the road and we’ll learn what happened there.”

In so many “surprise” attacks, from Pearl Harbor to the Yom Kippur War to 9/11, it turns out that relevant intelligence generated by spy agencies was disseminated to policymakers, but it wasn’t heeded as it didn’t fit with the assumptions they had about the actual nature and scale of the threat.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/opinion/opinion-the-911-attack-wasn-t-an-intelligence-failure-the-hamas-attack-may-be/ar-AA1hVwAx

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7 hours ago, Aqua Buddha said:

Iran is in no position to project power a thousand miles away.

Them and Hamas' only hope is that Israel plays by a different rulebook than they do.  Israel can level Gaza and we have to carrier groups off the coast giving them the green light.

100% Iran only ability to project power is via Hamas and Hezebolla. We (Israel) neuters Iran by taking out Hamas.

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6 hours ago, bernorange said:

Interesting read.

I was referring to this news, which I'd assumed had already become well known in this thread:

https://www.timesofisrael.com/egypt-intelligence-official-says-israel-ignored-repeated-warnings-of-something-big/

Quote

Mounting questions over Israel’s massive intelligence failure to anticipate and prepare for a surprise Hamas assault were compounded Monday when an Egyptian intelligence official said that Jerusalem had ignored repeated warnings that the Gaza-based terror group was planning “something big” — which included an apparent direct notice from Cairo’s intelligence minister to the prime minister.

The Egyptian official said Egypt, which often serves as a mediator between Israel and Hamas, had spoken repeatedly with the Israelis about “something big,” without elaborating.

He said Israeli officials were focused on the West Bank and played down the threat from Gaza. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s government is made up of supporters of West Bank settlers who have demanded a security crackdown there in the face of a rising tide of violence over the last 18 months.

That report is something the avowed leftist Mike McCaul recently confirmed, so while I understand some posters' desire to be skeptical of the claim that Israel knew beforehand, I'm not sure it can be dismissed as a conspiracy theory.

So yeah put yourself in the shoes of one of the many victim's families. Then ask yourself if the people you trusted to protect you owe you an apology. If the answer is "no" only then could it be said that the government is blameless.

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Hatred continues. https://apnews.com/article/muslim-boy-killed-chicago-landlord-will-county-5135dea218326d6e639a996564d9369e

HICAGO (AP) — A 71-year-old Illinois man was charged Sunday with a hate crime, accused of fatally stabbing a young boy and seriously wounding a woman because of their Islamic faith and the Israel-Hamas war, authorities said.

Spoiler

Officers found the 32-year-old woman and 6-year-old boy late Saturday morning at a home in an unincorporated area of Plainfield Township, southwest of Chicago, the Will County Sheriff’s Office said in a statement on social media. 

The statement added that the boy was pronounced dead at a hospital and the woman had multiple stab wounds and was expected to survive. An autopsy on the child showed he had also been stabbed multiple times. 

 

According to the sheriff’s office, the woman had called 911 to report that her landlord had attacked her with a knife, adding she then ran into a bathroom and continued to fight him off. 

The boy was stabbed numerous times with a knife, according to an autopsy, the sheriff’s office said. The woman had more than a dozen stab wounds and remained hospitalized Sunday and was expected to survive.

The man suspected in the attack was found Saturday outside the home and “sitting upright outside on the ground near the driveway of the residence” with a cut on his forehead, authorities said.

He was in custody Sunday and awaiting a court appearance. Authorities said he has been charged him with first-degree murder, attempted first-degree murder, two counts of hate crimes and aggravated battery with a deadly weapon.

 


 

 

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My Trumper co-workers are using this to tout their anti-muslim xenophobia and border control hysteria.  Meanwhile, I have another co-worker whose Israeli wife lost at least 8 of her childhood friends during last weekend's attack, and is chomping at the bit to pick up a rifle and head back to her homeland.  And I'm telling my kid at UT to lay off attending Hillel for awhile. 

Great times we're in...

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Disney donated $2 to relief organizations in Israel:

Quote

The Walt Disney Company donated 2 million dollars to Israeli organizations. “In the wake of the horrific terrorist attacks targeting Jews in Israel this past weekend, we must all do what we can to support the innocent people experiencing so much pain, violence, and uncertainty — particularly children,” said Bob Iger, CEO of The Walt Disney Company. “We condemn these attacks, the hate that motivated them, and all acts of terrorism, and we will continue working to find more ways to provide support in the region, and to honor the victims, their families, and all those affected by this war.”

On the one hand, MAGA is pissed because it's Disney is bad.

On the other hand, Disney giving to Israel, so good.

But on the other other hand, Disney specifically talking about helping Jewish people, so bad.

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37 minutes ago, atomheartbevo said:

Disney donated $2 to relief organizations in Israel:

On the one hand, MAGA is pissed because it's Disney is bad.

On the other hand, Disney giving to Israel, so good.

But on the other other hand, Disney specifically talking about helping Jewish people, so bad.

Confused Major League Baseball GIF by MLB

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Really insightful (but long 43 min) interview with Fareed Zakaria. The first half exclusively covers the Hamas/Israeli conflict, with the second half discussing other geopolitical topics, including Ukraine and Saudi Arabia, our domestic political climate, and the upcoming presidential election. He's always been one of my favorites, and I highly recommend if you have the time.

 

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9 hours ago, Satchel said:

Everybody knows he greasing the wheels for Hunter to make money.

He's going to be on the board of Gaza Gas.

At least it ain't Nigaz

Spoiler

Nigaz is a joint venture between the Russian gas company Gazprom EP International B.V. (100% affiliate of OAO Gazprom) and the Nigerian National Petroleum Corporation.[1] Nigaz was established in 2009. It plans to invest US$2.5 billion to build oil and gas refineries, pipelines and gas power stations in Nigeria.[2] Launching the company, Russian president Dmitry Medvedev announced his intention to form a major energy partnership with Nigeria at a meeting in Abuja with Nigerian president Umaru Yar'Adua.[3]

The company's name, a portmanteau of "Nigeria" and "Gazprom", attracted media attention because of its similarity to the potentially offensive word "nigga", a slang derivative and reclaimed word from "nigger", in African American Vernacular English.[2][4]

saqf0lal7qub1.jpg?width=640&crop=smart&a

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Will Israel's own interests be served by yielding to understandable blood lust? I doubt it.
What should Israel do? Maybe take a beat and try pragmatism. 

So tell us what the outcome was? What did Athens in their wisdom decide to do? Did it work?
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1 hour ago, Nivek said:


So tell us what the outcome was? What did Athens in their wisdom decide to do? Did it work?

Athens voted to rescind the first directive and sent the second of their two state triremes, Paralos and Saliminia, to try to overtake the first which had sailed for the island. That vessel, arrived in Mytilene just in time to stop the original order from being carried out. This is all frum Thucydides.

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After extreme deliberation and really depressing thoughts, the only conclusion that can be drawn from all of this is that don't elect fascists, they are filthy fucking idiots.

A) The majority of the IDF was in the west, policing and protecting huge assholes that should be sent to outerspace to settle asteroids, not the WB.

B) Their mowing the lawn strategy kept people subjugated, Hamas did something and they retaliated, all of this premeditated all under control, all benefiting electing fascism.
 

C) They did the Alqasa raids on occasion to trigger B, Bibi returning to power meant there was no low/lower that they could go.

So why concentrate thoughts on Israel and not Hamas? cause they have overwhelming power, and they use that power in halfassed fashion, just like Donny and his coup. All of this was preventable with competent leadership, but it is the incompetent leadership that used emotion to keep itself in power that allowed all this to begin with. The cycle of stupidity.

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1 hour ago, RomaVicta said:

Athens voted to rescind the first directive and sent the second of their two state triremes, Paralos and Saliminia, to try to overtake the first which had sailed for the island. That vessel, arrived in Mytilene just in time to stop the original order from being carried out. This is all frum Thucydides.

And......  what did Athen's decide to do instead of killing all the men and enslaving all the women and children?   How did it work out for them?  How was this a similar/different outcome than when they did carry out the first ship's order (kill/enslave) against Melos?  

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