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22 hours ago, fattyflattie said:

Yeah I get that. I’m not really the flamboyant type, so your first paragraph is where I stay.  

These are the details I was looking for. 

I found it worth noting that the real money in the room wear the same two-tone Datejust (you know the one) while the younger guys (both execs and not) were wearing 3-4x the watch. Suits were the same, it was the wrist wear that was over the top, at least with the 40-ish yo guys.    

Well, there’s one thing about Thor’s style that I like. 

Datejust two-tone is the #1 with the yellow gold day-date running a close second with the old school crowd going back to the late 70's

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45 minutes ago, 66BUFF said:

Datejust two-tone is the #1 with the yellow gold day-date running a close second with the old school crowd going back to the late 70's

I think a big part of that is the explosion of "watch culture" over the last 20 years or so.  Surprised you don't see more Presidents.

I know a guy, runs his family office, has a platinum Day Date (it might be a Datejust, but don't think so) with a smooth bezel.  Pretty low key for a kind of baller watch.

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10 hours ago, ChiTownDoc said:

When we did our PE deal we didn’t see one tie through over a dozen meetings.  Lots of sport coats without ties.

In this case, my group would be the one trying to convince your group that your projected 850m investment is in good hands.  And unfortunately we are not quite FID so it’s been more regular of an occurrence than I’d like.  Add to that there have been several new opportunities on further commercial backing and my 2-3 nice outfits are getting a run.  Fwiw, the portion I’m managing is only around 300 of that, but I was expected to wear business casual when I was managing 3-5m projects, added a jacket and nicer slacks when I was managing 30m projects, and obviously this one is an entire new realm for me.  I’m not expected to be dressed up everyday of course, but for any meetings dealing with financials, change orders, AFE reviews, etc. it’s apparent these guys like to dress up.  I’m sure it being fall/winter has helped contribute as well  

The vast majority of the folks in these meetings have been dressed suit and tie, and a bad ass watch.   I don’t have a problem looking presentable, I just want to learn what I’m looking at from the folks who live this day in and out.  And try to limit any unintentional faux pas, since this isn’t my world. Since I’m not into shiny shirts or flamboyant colors, looks like I’ve been doing OK so far. 
 

10 hours ago, ChiTownDoc said:

And like many others said, no need to drop 11k.

I may have phrased that poorly. I will not own an 11k suit in my lifetime.  Even if I had your $$, I don’t think I would.  I was just saying while browsing over dozens of them the other night, the first one that was worth a click happened to be 11.5k, which I thought was funny.  I’m certain there are many many very quality places you could arrive at 1/3 of that cost. 

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17 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

Also, I think you're right that there are a whole lot of people who will have no idea what they're looking at.  Probably more now than ever before.

This is what I’m trying to rectify. 

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3 hours ago, G650 said:

Interesting, the only bespoke tailor I have ever heard of in Chicago is Chris Despos.

Shit it had the intermediary baste stage which is key in separating true bespoke...or so I thought.  Am I in need of some learning here?

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2 hours ago, fattyflattie said:

This is what I’m trying to rectify. 

What I might do is go to Needless Markup and have a look at their suits.  A lot or mostly Italian, but also RL Purple Label.  You can totally avoid junky suits there yet get a smattering of fits and styles.  The Zegna and Brioni, although Italian, tend to have a more American/British cut/feel to them, Canali a more eyetalian look, and Kiton getting pretty close to new wave kill yourself.  The RL Purple Label is going to be straight American, but a little more forward than Brooks Brothers.  Avoid Armani and some of the "big name" designers.  I dunno about Tom Ford, some of it looks good some of it is dreck and no idea about the quality.

Once you get a feel for top quality off the rack and whether you can deal with Italian or not, might head to Last Call for some bargains.

You could also go to some top mens stores, but even then, they are likely to have some lesser suits mixed in with the Norman Hilton (not even sure it's what it used to be).  Price or an honest salesman might have to be your guide there.

I might start with good off the rack to get good quality fabric and construction, and that will put you waaaaay ahead of the game.  Then as you develop taste in that arena go for MTM or bespoke crazy stuff like these 1%ers.

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21 hours ago, 4th and 5 said:

Is this the thread where I post that I got 10 Stafford brand dress shirts at JP Penney on black Friday for $9.99 each?

 

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I deal almost exclusively with entertainment folks in my biz.  I bet in the building I'm sitting in right now, with maybe 800 people, there isn't one single person wearing a tie.  And maybe 2 wearing a sportcoat.  I have one hanging on the hook behind my door, but I put it on maybe twice/month.

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3 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

So, it looks like we're gonna have an Italian v. English death match up in here between ChiTown and G650.

Well, technically American vs. English.

 

1 hour ago, ChiTownDoc said:

Shit it had the intermediary baste stage which is key in separating true bespoke...or so I thought.  Am I in need of some learning here?

I truly don't know know if he does bespoke or not, not doubting you at all. I know of about 6 guys in the US that still do it, so its definitely rare here.

It's really a sliding scale tbh, some guys do certain steps, some don't. There are nazi's like Frank Shattuck who vow every stich must be by hand, but I definitely don't subscribe to that. There's definitely MTM guys that do baste fittings,  but only at top end. My general cutoff for bespoke is hand cut paper pattern and hand cut and stitched canvas.

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7 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

I might start with good off the rack to get good quality fabric and construction, and that will put you waaaaay ahead of the game. 

I’ll have to check what they are, but the two I’ve got that fit (currently) were both off the rack ~$1500-ish msrp (don’t know how legit that works) that I bought for 650-750 on sale a few years ago.   Both seem great for what I do.  Seemingly high quality material, stitching, and were tailored (not some 3rd generation tailor situation). 
 

Love the talk on the buttons.  Collars, lapels, ties, fabrics etc.  Stuff that isn’t as apparent, if that makes sense. 

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6 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

I’ll have to check what they are, but the two I’ve got that fit (currently) were both off the rack ~$1500-ish msrp (don’t know how legit that works) that I bought for 650-750 on sale a few years ago.   Both seem great for what I do.  Seemingly high quality material, stitching, and were tailored (not some 3rd generation tailor situation). 
 

Love the talk on the buttons.  Collars, lapels, ties, fabrics etc.  Stuff that isn’t as apparent, if that makes sense. 

A couple of keys on whether you are getting quality is to look at the construction of the pants inside around the waist and fly.  Kind of hard to describe, but you'll probably know it when you see it:  quite a bit of lining material that isn't obviously synthetic, quite a bit of stitching.  Also a goodly bit of fabric either side of the seat seam for tailoring purposes.

With jackets, one of the main giveaways is collar/lapel construction.  It's hand stitching there between the two layers of fabric or an interior layer that give it its shape and drape and will also keep longer than a couple of dry cleanings.  The cheapest construction is "fused" where some iron-on type material is used between the front and back of the lapel to give it shape.  Comes loose after a cleaning or two.  You can't separate the front and the back rubbing it between your fingers.  If the jacket fabric is heavy enough, the stitches may be visible on the back.  If it's light material, they may be covered by the back fabric or backed with a felty material that you can see the stitches in.  In any event, the top layer of fabric moves under your thumb when you rub the lapel between your thumb and forefinger.

Also, looking at the inside of a well-made quarter-lined jacket can let you see some of the detail work that goes into it.  It's not just marveling at the craftsmanship, the way a jacket is stitched has a lot to do with the way it fits and drapes.

The other giveaway can be sleeve vents and buttonholes.  Only a well-made jacket will bother to have functional buttons and holes and vent on the sleeve.  However, there are well-made jackets that don't bother with this detail to save money.  

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1 hour ago, TwiceHorn said:

A lot or mostly Italian, but also RL Purple Label.  You can totally avoid junky suits there yet get a smattering of fits and styles.  The Zegna and Brioni, although Italian, tend to have a more American/British cut/feel to them, Canali a more eyetalian look, and Kiton getting pretty close to new wave kill yourself.  The RL Purple Label is going to be straight American, but a little more forward than Brooks Brothers. 

This is quality advice.

 

1 hour ago, fattyflattie said:

Love the talk on the buttons.  Collars, lapels, ties, fabrics etc.  Stuff that isn’t as apparent, if that makes sense

There is a lot there. How deep do you want to go? As far as lapel, I'd peg you as a notch kinda guy, but peaks are have been a lot more in the past 10 years so it's not over the top. There's a million opinions on lapel width, gorge height etc... but honestly unless you are a clothing nerd I won't bore you with all the theory. Don't get some skinny lapel Jessy Palmer trash and you are good. Fabric is a rabbit hole. I still recommend anyone starting with a quality 9/10oz. worsted. A good house such as Harrisons, Holland & Sherry, Dormeuil, Scabal, Loro Piana, Caccioppoli et al. A good of the peg suit should have the fabric specified, if its not listed, its a warning sign. There's good house fabric, but it's a crap shoot.

Ties, a whole different conversation. Don't buy some shiny American shit for starters. 3 1/4" width is a good median start point on width. Make sure it has enough body to tie a decent knot.

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1 hour ago, TwiceHorn said:

The other giveaway can be sleeve vents and buttonholes.  Only a well-made jacket will bother to have functional buttons and holes and vent on the sleeve.  However, there are well-made jackets that don't bother with this detail to save money.  

Generally true, but it's becoming a mixed bag, as the cheaper retailers are picking up on the indicators of handmade, so they do it to signify value, rather than do it as a matter of tradition.  Just like they did with pick-stitching.  Like the Bangalorechinalaysia MTM stuff will do functional buttonholes, because labor is cheap. 

I have a Stile Latino (Attolini subbrand) that has closed hole...  And a Purple Label that didn't come with any holes at all, i.e. unfinished, meant to be finalized by the customer (just like trouser ends).  I think it was $200 to get the buttonhole handstitched.

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The Pics of Thor I posted are from a bespoke clothier in Minneapolis- King Bros. 

They offer a pretty good explanation about the difference between custom, MTM, and Bespoke:

Quote

Custom

can mean anything. Choosing a colored lining or fancier buttons gives a suit maker the right to call it “custom.”  Bottom line, “custom” means you’ve had some say in the suit (even something as small as a button color), but the suit isn’t necessarily made for your body.

 

Made-to-Measure

means there are a number of symmetrical adjustments (+/-) in girth(s) and length(s) to a pre-existing pattern. Because of this, ‘made-to-measure’ adjustments are limited. They typically cannot make adjustments for shoulder slope, posture, or any significant asymmetrical irregularities in your body, which are common. 

 

Bespoke 

refers to the process of creating a unique, original pattern specific to a client's body structure.  Unfortunately, the word "bespoke" has lost the impact it once had in the industry; most custom clothiers will claim to deliver a bespoke garment, but nearly all of them use a made-to-measure process. We are certified Master Bespoke Clothiers, and each of our clients experience a true bespoke process and product from start to finish. Not only do our clients choose each and every detail, but each garment is hand-cut and suits each individual to exact specifications.  With bespoke clothing, everyone is able to see and (most importantly) feel the difference, so be prepared for others to take notice, too.

 

Their prices are too rich for my needs, but seem affordable enough.. 


Bespoke Suit  $1095
Bespoke Shirt $175
 
Packages
Introductory $1195
Standard    $1595
Executive    $2995
Advantage  $4095

Is that pretty standard for Bespoke?  

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14 minutes ago, TexasHooch said:

Bespoke Suit  $1095

Absolutely no fucking way.

 

What are the rest of those things listed? That is getting into reasonable price. Even in say Hong Kong the cheapest you could physically get the work done for bespoke suiting is about 2500 USD.

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Hell if I know.  They say prices vary by fabric-  Maybe that price is for burlap.  All I know is that they claim to be Bespoke and have a ton of local and international clients.  

What do I know.  I wear jeans to work every day.

 

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41 minutes ago, TexasHooch said:

The Pics of Thor I posted are from a bespoke clothier in Minneapolis- King Bros. 

They offer a pretty good explanation about the difference between custom, MTM, and Bespoke:

 

Their prices are too rich for my needs, but seem affordable enough.. 


Bespoke Suit  $1095
Bespoke Shirt $175
 
Packages
Introductory $1195
Standard    $1595
Executive    $2995
Advantage  $4095

Is that pretty standard for Bespoke?  

7ede26_86f8341a7e304f4b9bc41f01f7434b83.

MV5BMzk2ODAyNTU3OV5BMl5BanBnXkFtZTgwMDc0

 

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37 minutes ago, TexasHooch said:

Hell if I know.  They say prices vary by fabric-  Maybe that price is for burlap.  All I know is that they claim to be Bespoke and have a ton of local and international clients.  

What do I know.  I wear jeans to work every day.

 

The biggest cost in a suit is labor by far, until you get into whack a doodle alpaca and shit. Theres about 50 hours of labor in a suit, you can do the math on the cost. Whereas there is about 3.5 meters of cloth in a typical sized person's 2 piece suit. At 150 per meter, it's only about 450 dollars in cloth.

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15 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

I dug around.  It looks like some guy is franchising a MTM thing with centralized mfg somewhere.  So you go in, get measured and "fitted," and they send the measurements off somewhere where it's made.

https://www.bespokenusa.com/

There's some shockingly bad stuff in their promo pictures. Especially the shit the midget or Mahomes are wearing.

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The nicest suit I have is a Canali I got at Saks for my wedding.  My frame is pretty standard so I can do MTM without much issue.

I would never do that again though, for the money I spent I could have gotten a lot more with a smaller outfitter.

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3 hours ago, huge said:

The nicest suit I have is a Canali I got at Saks for my wedding.  My frame is pretty standard so I can do MTM without much issue.

I would never do that again though, for the money I spent I could have gotten a lot more with a smaller outfitter.

If youre confident of your size in certain models and brands, you find tons of stuff below retail at Yoox and Shopthefinest.com.  Particularly Canali and stuff like that that is harder to find outside of big cities and certain boutiques.  I got great deals on Sutor shoes and LBM1911 jackets.  You will have to play a bit of the shipping-returns games if the colors or fabrics don't show up exactly right through the website

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I use a guy out of Hong Kong for shirts, pants, and suits/sports coats. He comes in every quarter with swatches and you get your stuff in about four weeks.

Prices are good, but it takes some back and forth to finally get the fit you want. Everything is completely customizable.

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Out of curiosity who do you use? I've stopped in Simpson Sin and WW Chan when I've been in HK just to check the places out.

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Crossing over from the shoe thread in CYHMWT - I've been on a shoe kick lately, building up a closet of dress/casual dress shoes. Black Park Avenues, chili Fifth Avenues, walnut Strands, I bought a pair of Grant Stone plain toe bluchers in crimson (really more of a brown with subtle red), and my wife bought me a pair of bourbon suede longwings from their black friday sale for Christmas (where they were much more palatably priced at $200).  I'm surprised at how much I like these shoes.  They fit a nice little pocket of smart casual - strands aside I'm not big on brogueing and wingtips but the suede really smooths that out.

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Scope out some of the Crockett & Jones suede chukkas or Chelseas. Super easy casual shoe. Suede loafers with no socks is probably like my 99% of the time going out shie these days.

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I have some moose Minnetonkas that are my sockless quick trip thing - planning on getting an unlined pair of quoddy camp mocs or sport pennies at some point.

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39 minutes ago, Celery Man said:

I have some moose Minnetonkas that are my sockless quick trip thing - planning on getting an unlined pair of quoddy camp mocs or sport pennies at some point.

I've got Rancourt camp mocs, highly recommend.

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I have some 20 year old LL Beans.  I understand they are not nearly as good as they used to be.  I think mine were made in Brazil, but they are well done.

If you want to explore the soft-sole mocs like the Ring Boot, take a look at Arrow Mocs.  The leather is Swiss and is 3/8" thick.  Despite the thickness, and the double sole, they do conform to your feet and are super-comfortable.  But also kind of weird looking.

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On 12/18/2019 at 6:35 PM, TwiceHorn said:

Fair points. But look at Bill Brewer up there in the dark pin or chalk stripe.  He's gonna rub some folks the wrong way despite not doing anything outrageous.

Also, within some ego-driven businesses, someone who does know what's up may decide he doesn't like your taste or the fact that he's not the best-dressed guy in the room.  Not all people are big enough to think "well done," issue a compliment, and move on.

There's a fine line to walk with a jury between looking appropriately prosperous and competent, and looking flashy and untrustworthy or just like you're larding it on.

The point is to be conscious of your audience.

You have to be aware of your audience, but true to yourself.  If you're a trial attorney who wants to have the jury's attention and it fits your personality, then there is not an issue with color/suits/patterns that would be considered heresy by the 5280s/G650s of the world.  A former colleague used to wear a light gray pinstripe double-breasted linen suit regularly in trial when we were in federal court.   From there it just got even more interesting. 

 

It fit his personality.  He could get away with it.  Juries loved him regardless of the crazy suits he wore.  Judges weren't offended by it because he had the skins already hanging on the wall.

 

My courtroom style is not as showy, and is reflected in my suits.  Wear what you normally wear and you should be fine in front of the jury.  Although I do limit myself to only two suits/two ties, rotated throughout trial regardless of length. 

 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, ERhine said:

considered heresy by the 5280s/G650s of the world

Que? I argue for pattern.

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Despite my arguing the theory of knowing your audience, etc.  I am not that big a proponent of it.  I wore a dark olive, almost grey, windowpane suit to argue before the Texas Supreme Court because I thought a "sincerity suit" was more fitting than something more somber.  We won.

I think plaintiff's lawyers probably have a bit more freedom to express themselves than defense lawyers, in most cases.

I think, though, that raw "power" can be overdone.  No one actually liked Gordon Gekko.  I don't think anyone really likes Bill Brewer either, but people do continue to hire him and his minions, although I see he has fewer minions than ever.

Edited by TwiceHorn

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Out of curiosity who do you use? I've stopped in Simpson Sin and WW Chan when I've been in HK just to check the places out.

Guy named Mike Bilani. Label is Riviera fashions.dc5366c83713cd8cf97cdb6768f2e92e.jpg

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Need to get ties for my groomsmen and brides father.  Any suggestions for stylish yet affordable ties?

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2 hours ago, htown85 said:

Need to get ties for my groomsmen and brides father.  Any suggestions for stylish yet affordable ties?

How much time do you have? If not like tomorrow, I'd recommend Sam Hober.  As good as about anything going, completely customized if you want, and reasonable price.

 

https://www.samhober.com/ties/ties.htm

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Nicest tie selection is from Drake's.

More affordable is Makers Shirt aka Kamakura, who also make the best value..... shirts (if you already didn't guess it)

Then there's always Brooks and SuitSupply both of which have locations nationwide

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34 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

Nicest tie selection is from Drake's.

Drake's really isn't the same since they were bought out.

That said, I have a raw silk that was a collaboration with the Rake they did that i really love.

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Yeah you kind of need to define "spread."  It's a term that gets used/misused quite a lot and there's a fairly wide variation in "spreads."

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1000

In this image, semi spread actually looks pretty good, but I feel like every spread collar I see is more like the image for Londoner.

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One of the more annoying things is when someone wears a cutaway or pretty extreme spread with a narrow knot so you can see collar band behind the knot.

I'm rather fond of what's called an English Spread in that depiction.

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Yeah, you can't really judge whether a spread collar looks good when it is shown with a four in hand knot. The english spread or president spread can look nice with a proper combo, but getting any wider than that is getting a bit flashy imo.

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I do know enough to know that part of the problem with that image is the knots are all wrong for the collars.  Looks way tighter than I tie it even when I'm making that knot.  I think my distaste for the spread collar comes from every badly dressed dude wearing a spread collared shirt with the top button undone for the third time between washes and the tips are halfway to the shoulder

Sloppy-shirt-collar.jpg

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