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Goo Punch

Luka Doncic

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4 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

Yea gotta take issue here. Dirk was absolutely a transcendent talent. He completely invented a player type that has never existed in NBA history. His teams were also early adopters of the space and pace that we see today and much of that was dependent on Dirks ability to stretch the floor.

Agreed, for most of his career if he was left 1v1 in the post he was going to score and you couldn’t leave him open from deep. Forcing many teams to double him down low or throw a SF on him when he was on the perimeter. This left gaps all over the court.

It created so many opportunities for guys like Corey Brewer to average 15 points a game 

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2 minutes ago, Dirk X West said:

How many triple doubles did Jeremy Lin put up in his NBA career?

Fewer than Russell Westbrook, I'm fairly confident. How does Luka stack up against Russ? I know you got my point and I admit it was lame. Nonetheless we've all seen the next great thing come and go enough times to not kneejerk crown someone the next king based on a limited sample size. Well. maybe not all of us. Luka's special, no doubt.

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6 minutes ago, El Diablo said:

Fewer than Russell Westbrook, I'm fairly confident. How does Luka stack up against Russ? I know you got my point and I admit it was lame. Nonetheless we've all seen the next great thing come and go enough times to not kneejerk crown someone the next king based on a limited sample size. Well. maybe not all of us. Luka's special, no doubt.

Does he need to prove himself over a number of years and in the playoffs before we declare him an all-time great? yes

Is he in any way comparable to Jeremy Lin? no

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1 minute ago, Braff Zacklin said:

No, but he does live upstairs from you.

And I think you've seen him before

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Doncic is a more talented basketball player than Dirk. It's not close. What his legacy is and where it compares with Dirk will be dependent on a whole host of things, some of which he individually has little control over. The people responding to Derka are arguing a point he's not making. 

Luka is the most talented basketball player to come into the NBA since LeBron, and is arguably better than LeBron was at this stage in his career. I don't believe it is a stretch to say if he continues at his current pace he could be talked about in the conversation with some of the all time basketball greats. A lot has to happen for him to maintain that pace, but if he does, he will be a transcendental player.

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16 minutes ago, Longhornmaniac8 said:

Doncic is a more talented basketball player than Dirk. It's not close. What his legacy is and where it compares with Dirk will be dependent on a whole host of things, some of which he individually has little control over. The people responding to Derka are arguing a point he's not making. 

We understand his (and your) point about having more talent and skill just fine. No one's arguing that.  But that is not analogous to being better.  We're arguing his below points, where he went off the deep end a bit.

18 hours ago, Goo Punch said:

He's already better than Dirk at nearly everything. I know that's hard for a lot of people to swallow for some reason, but it's true. He could literally not improve at all over the next dozen years and he would still go down as a top 10 all time player. I honestly don't even understand how this is a debate. 

 

18 hours ago, Goo Punch said:

Dirk is currently the greatest European player ever, and probably a top 20-ish all time guy. hats off to him. Luka is still a better basketball player.

 

If he doesn't improve at all in a dozen years (which obviously he will), he will not be a Top 10 player.  That's asinine.  The NBA's Top 10 is an insane club that doesn't even include players like Shaq, Kobe, or Durant (yet).  Most of us need a little more than some gaudy regular stats at a time when it's never been easier for ball dominant, high usage players to accumulate gaudy regular season stats before declaring someone better than an all-timer.  We all know that the game changes in May and June and the pressures that come with having to lead and carry a team.  I think he'll still be great because of that laundry list of skills--he doesn't depend of any one thing (though a Westbrookian 32% on 9 3PA a game will need to improve)--but we haven't seen it yet.

Luka's amazing, and he's well on his way to be an all-timer.  None of us have argued that he's not the best young player since LeBron.  He is.  AD is the only other player that I can think of that was even in the same ballpark at 20 years old.  Most on here were on board the Luka train long before he was drafted.  But it's still very, very early.

Again, for one game, I'm absolutely taking early 2010's Dirk over today's Luka in a heartbeat.  That said, if I'm building around a player for the next 15+ years and the choice is young Dirk (with the knowledge that he's destined for greatness and a guaranteed championship) and the relative mystery of Luka, I'm taking Luka hands down.  His future is blindingly bright.

 

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20 hours ago, Eddie Gran said:

Doncic is on a different level this year but I don’t think he’ll ever be on Dirk level

He’s already surpassed Dirk level. 

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19 hours ago, ramblin’ man said:

Terrible take. Go to bed. 

Derka is 100% correct. Dirk was an all-time great. First ballot HOF’er. Luka has the potential to be a Top 10 player of all time, maybe top five, maybe top 3.  And he’s 20. 

I love Dirk. Like my favorite athlete of all time in a town with Nolan, Pudge, Troy, Emmitt, and Modano. It’s not close - it’s Dirk. But he wasn’t winning championships or getting streets named after him in year 2, and Dirk himself says he couldn’t do the things in his prime that Luka can do right now.

I’m sure this thread progressed predictably, but 11 posts in, more Derka, less retards. 

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9 hours ago, StruggleBus said:

You want a counter argument to your opinion that a second year player is better than an all time great? 

Here it is: He's not. He mostly definitely might be when all is said and done. What if he turns out like Derrick Rose instead? 

Maybe give it a few years or ten before stating premature opinions as unquestionable facts. 

Rose didn’t have near the talent Luka does. But injury derails the discussion. I thought that’d be understood. 

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8 hours ago, gsoda3 said:

I don't think it's preposterous to say Luka's skill set at this point in time is better than Dirk's was at any point of his career. Obviously a player's greatness takes more than that in to consideration which is why no one is saying luka is greater than Dirk right now. But in terms of shooting, rebounding, scoring, assists... I think Luka is better. Can he take an entire team on his shoulders and will his way to a championship? Can he sustain that level over 2 decades? Remains to be seen.

Very few people can take a team on their shoulders and if you think Dirk did (when he was past his prime, had Jet, Matrix and Chandler), then you’re smoking crack. 

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Team Derka here. I love Dirk and probably shouldn’t blaspheme but it’s the Internet fuck it. Luka is better right now at 20 than Dirk ever was. If I had to choose one I’d trade Dirk’s known career for Luka’s potential career. Luckily I’m a Mavs fan and don’t have to choose shit. I will enjoy this ride. More than one championship to come for Luka. Hopefully all in Mavs blue and green.

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yeah that's the thing for the amaba fans here- just sit back and enjoy, because you've got another franchise player in your squad who looks to have a truly amazing career ahead of him, one that could be even better than Dirk's.

 

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12 hours ago, Dr. Beeper said:

Very few people can take a team on their shoulders and if you think Dirk did (when he was past his prime, had Jet, Matrix and Chandler), then you’re smoking crack. 

... well we were watching something very different in 2011 then.

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12 hours ago, Kermit said:

This thread will age well, one way or another. 

Meh. It's pretty much an argument between those who think that Luka is really, really good and will be an all-time great soon enough and those who think that Luka is really, really good and his level of play is already among the all-time greats.

Not a whole lot of separation there. We're either all going to be right, or all going to be wrong.

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On 12/30/2019 at 11:41 AM, gsoda3 said:

I don't think it's preposterous to say Luka's skill set at this point in time is better than Dirk's was at any point of his career. Obviously a player's greatness takes more than that in to consideration which is why no one is saying luka is greater than Dirk right now. But in terms of shooting, rebounding, scoring, assists... I think Luka is better. Can he take an entire team on his shoulders and will his way to a championship? Can he sustain that level over 2 decades? Remains to be seen.

Luka is not a better shooter than Dirk.  Not by a damn sight.  

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20 minutes ago, Trey3216 said:

Luka is not a better shooter than Dirk.  Not by a damn sight.  

Scoring is also now a number that can hardly be compared from today's NBA to the time Dirk played in his prime. 

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29 minutes ago, Trey3216 said:

Luka is not a better shooter than Dirk.  Not by a damn sight.  

Luka is a better scorer but he is not a better shooter.

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2 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

Luka is a better scorer but he is not a better shooter.

This is much more accurate.  Luka is a better scorer,  but Dirk is one of the best pure shooters in the history of the game.  Dude shot 48% (or somewhere in that range) from 12-17 ft, that’s unheard of territory.  

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On 12/30/2019 at 11:04 AM, Goo Punch said:

still haven't seen even one single legitimate counter argument. not one. just comments like yours. do you or anyone else making these posts have anything substantive or germane to add to the discussion?

No one wants to argue with you because its a futile gesture. So we'll just mock and ridicule your ridiculous statement that a 2nd year player is better than a top 20 all time player..

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18 hours ago, Longhornmaniac8 said:

Doncic is a more talented basketball player than Dirk. It's not close. What his legacy is and where it compares with Dirk will be dependent on a whole host of things, some of which he individually has little control over. The people responding to Derka are arguing a point he's not making. 

Luka is the most talented basketball player to come into the NBA since LeBron, and is arguably better than LeBron was at this stage in his career. I don't believe it is a stretch to say if he continues at his current pace he could be talked about in the conversation with some of the all time basketball greats. A lot has to happen for him to maintain that pace, but if he does, he will be a transcendental player.

So now Luka is better than Durant, AD, Kawhi and Giannis?

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1 hour ago, Trey3216 said:

This is much more accurate.  Luka is a better scorer,  but Dirk is one of the best pure shooters in the history of the game.  Dude shot 48% (or somewhere in that range) from 12-17 ft, that’s unheard of territory.  

 

yeah you're right, i should've gone with better scorer. 

 

FG% by distance (feet).  better % between the two is bolded.

LUKA

0-3: .679

3-10: .454

10-16: .395

16-3pt: .439

3p: .326

 

DIRK

0-3: .645

3-10: .407

10-16: .472

16-3pt: .474

3p: .383

 

interestingly enough dirk's career effective FG% is .512 and luka's so far is .514.  

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19 hours ago, Dr. Beeper said:

Very few people can take a team on their shoulders and if you think Dirk did (when he was past his prime, had Jet, Matrix and Chandler), then you’re smoking crack. 

That is one thing I always hated to read/hear. That Dirk carried a bunch of bums to win the Finals. Mainly to shit on Lebron. Dirk had a very good cast that all came together at the right time. Kidd was what Dirk needed earlier in his career. A very savvy, vet PG. Then you had vets like Jet, Terry and Marion who had tons of playoff experience. A junkyard dog in Stevenson. Peja hitting some huge shots. Oh and all this without Caron Butler. Miami had the 3 huge stars but after that, not much.

The 2006 roster was much less talented overall than the 2011 roster. And that one could have easily won as well.

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1 hour ago, Michael Knight said:

So now Luka is better than Durant, AD, Kawhi and Giannis?

I will take Luka any day over the week over AD. Not even close.

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3 minutes ago, Vic Mackey said:

That is one thing I always hated to read/hear. That Dirk carried a bunch of bums to win the Finals. Mainly to shit on Lebron. Dirk had a very good cast that all came together at the right time. Kidd was what Dirk needed earlier in his career. A very savvy, vet PG. Then you had vets like Jet, Terry and Marion who had tons of playoff experience. A junkyard dog in Stevenson. Peja hitting some huge shots. Oh and all this without Caron Butler. Miami had the 3 huge stars but after that, not much.

The 2006 roster was much less talented overall than the 2011 roster. And that one could have easily won as well.

Mavs don't win the title without Tyson Chandler. 

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32 minutes ago, gsoda3 said:

 

yeah you're right, i should've gone with better scorer. 

 

FG% by distance (feet).  better % between the two is bolded.

LUKA

0-3: .679

3-10: .454

10-16: .395

16-3pt: .439

3p: .326

 

DIRK

0-3: .645

3-10: .407

10-16: .472

16-3pt: .474

3p: .383

 

interestingly enough dirk's career effective FG% is .512 and luka's so far is .514.  

Likely because Luka takes way more 3’s. 
 

Luka averaging 7.7 3PA’s so far, Dirk was 3.4 for his career 

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35 minutes ago, gsoda3 said:

 

yeah you're right, i should've gone with better scorer. 

 

FG% by distance (feet).  better % between the two is bolded.

LUKA

0-3: .679

3-10: .454

10-16: .395

16-3pt: .439

3p: .326

 

DIRK

0-3: .645

3-10: .407

10-16: .472

16-3pt: .474

3p: .383

 

interestingly enough dirk's career effective FG% is .512 and luka's so far is .514.  

That % from 10-3pt is absolutely absurd.  This was one of the better articles written about Dirk’s absurd ability to shoot the long 2.  
 

https://grantland.com/the-triangle/steve-nash-george-karl-and-others-on-dirk-nowitzki-and-the-unguardable-play/

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Posted (edited)
On 12/31/2019 at 9:17 AM, gsoda3 said:

... well we were watching something very different in 2011 then.

We were. I saw a total team effort where Dirk played the star, and Jet, Marion, Chandler, Kidd, Barea, and Stevenson all contributed, significantly. I saw an extremely well coached team as Carlisle is about as good as it gets. 26/10 is enough to deservedly win MVP, but it is not “putting a team on your shoulders/back”. You have an idiotic take. 

Edited by Dr. Beeper

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That’s the thing. Dirk was the one star. The others were role players. 
In the era of James/wade/bosh and James/Irving and curry/Thompson/green/Durant and pierce/Garnett and Duncan/Robinson/Parker/ignoble/Leonardit was dirk and a bunch of guys past their prime. Terry got good looks because of dirk. Kids and barea got driving and passing lanes because of dirk. 

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again, the Mavs do not win the title without Tyson Chandler. he was a total game changer for them, and no matter what Dirk may have done they were not going to win it all without Chandler. 

Dirk was the star, but he did not "put the team on his back" a la LeBron in Cleveland, AI in Philly, or even LeBron and Kyrie when they won it all. Dirk led the way, but it was a total team/coaching effort that won Dallas the title. 

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He and Harden have incredibly similar offensive games. They both have a devastating stepbacks, incredible handles, the ability to see an open shooter anywhere on the floor, and can finish at the rim. James has that weird Ginobiliesque, left handed quirkiness to his game, but Luka has this slow mo gear (Kyle Anderson) where it’s impossible to time his shot or his drive. Both are incredible at drawing fouls. The fact that Luka is playing with this level of offensive acumen at his age is terrifying. Some guys just come in and immediately take the league by storm. Larry, Tim, Magic. But the only one I can remember doing it at this age was LeBron. He’s in some select company. 

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Also, fuck the Kings and the goddamn Suns for allowing the fucking Mavericks to draft Luka. You stupid fucking assholes. There is a reason why your franchises will suck in perpetuity and this is it, the inability to recognize generational talent. You max out Buddy Hield and draft Josh Jackson and wonder why the basketball world has left you behind. Man, fuck you two pathetic ass franchises. Now I have to watch this Slovenian asshole rip through our division for the next 20 years all because Vlade Divac is an absolute moron, and Robert Sarver fucks cats. 

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22 minutes ago, Goo Punch said:

Dirk was the star, but he did not "put the team on his back" a la LeBron in Cleveland, AI in Philly, or even LeBron and Kyrie when they won it all. Dirk led the way, but it was a total team/coaching effort that won Dallas the title. 

It's funny how we remember things.   Lebron won one title in Cleveland, and he had Kevin Love in addition to Kyrie.  Coaching I'll give you, but Dirk absolutely carried every bit of the load during his championship that Lebron carried during his.  More actually (imo).

Every NBA championship is a team effort.

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2011 Finals

 

Game 1 loss- 7/18 FG, 12/12 FT, 27 pts, 8 reb, 2 ast, 0 stl, 0 blk- he was aight, but certainly nothing spectacular in a Mavs loss.

 

Game 2 win- 10/22 FG, 3/3 FT, 24 pts, 11 reb, 5 TO- again, less than spectacular, and he got a lot of help from Shawn Marion (20/8/3 on 9/16 FG), but Dirk did lead the way in the 4Q, so i will give him this one. 

 

Game 3 loss- 11/21 FG, 9/9 FT, 34 pts, 11 reb, 3 blk. Now this is any example of Dirk carrying the team. He did everything he could here but came up just short of a W. Not his fault.

 

Game 4 win- 6/19 FG, 0/2 3P, 9/10 FT, 21 pts, 11 reb, 3 TO, 1 ast. Dirk did not play well, including the 4Q where he was 2/6 FG with two potentially costly TO's. Dallas still won though, behind a big game from Chandler, and the fact that LeBron only scored 8 points. Again- LeBron James scored 8 total points. 

 

Game 5 win- 9/18 FG, 10/10 FT, 29 pts 6 reb. Dirk had a good game, but this was the definition of a team effort. Pretty much every role player had a big game, with the team shooting 57% from the field including 13-19 from deep (Dirk was 1/1, while Kidd, Barrea, and Terry combined to go 10/15). Total team win, and no doubt *the* crucial win that swung the series for them. 

 

Game 6 win- 9/27 FG, 1/7 3P, 2/2 FT, 21 pts, 11 reb, 1 ast, and a -4 +/-. He had a big 4Q which is essentially where he did all of his damage, but the Mavs wouldn't have even been in the game if it weren't for the play of Marion, Kidd, Barrea, and particularly Jason Terry who went 11/16 from the field and dropped 27 points. 

 

So, there you have it. Dirk was fine (although if you take away his FT shooting his offensive numbers get pretty ugly), and he definitely stepped it up in a couple of different 4Q's, but in no way did he put the team on his back and carry them to a title. 2011 Dallas is the quintessential example of a team effort to win a title. Claiming that Dirk carried them there is 100% revisionist history. 

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Posted (edited)

the tl;dr version- if someone carries a team to a title then you can say, "Player X is the only reason that team won." That is nowhere near the case with the 2011 Finals. Dirk certainly had the highest USG for Dallas, but it was a total team effort to win it all, and the Mavs actually lost the one game where he did carry them. 

 

edit- if I had to say one single person was the most responsible for the title it would be Rick Carlisle. Dallas's team defense was the real hero. They held an absolutely stacked Miami team to 92, 93, 88, 83, 103, and 95 points. That's fuckin unbelievable, and it ain't because Dirk was out there locking down LBJ or anything. Total team/coaching win. 

Edited by Goo Punch

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1 hour ago, Goo Punch said:

2011 Finals

 

Game 1 loss- 7/18 FG, 12/12 FT, 27 pts, 8 reb, 2 ast, 0 stl, 0 blk- he was aight, but certainly nothing spectacular in a Mavs loss.

 

Game 2 win- 10/22 FG, 3/3 FT, 24 pts, 11 reb, 5 TO- again, less than spectacular, and he got a lot of help from Shawn Marion (20/8/3 on 9/16 FG), but Dirk did lead the way in the 4Q, so i will give him this one. 

 

Game 3 loss- 11/21 FG, 9/9 FT, 34 pts, 11 reb, 3 blk. Now this is any example of Dirk carrying the team. He did everything he could here but came up just short of a W. Not his fault.

 

Game 4 win- 6/19 FG, 0/2 3P, 9/10 FT, 21 pts, 11 reb, 3 TO, 1 ast. Dirk did not play well, including the 4Q where he was 2/6 FG with two potentially costly TO's. Dallas still won though, behind a big game from Chandler, and the fact that LeBron only scored 8 points. Again- LeBron James scored 8 total points. 

 

Game 5 win- 9/18 FG, 10/10 FT, 29 pts 6 reb. Dirk had a good game, but this was the definition of a team effort. Pretty much every role player had a big game, with the team shooting 57% from the field including 13-19 from deep (Dirk was 1/1, while Kidd, Barrea, and Terry combined to go 10/15). Total team win, and no doubt *the* crucial win that swung the series for them. 

 

Game 6 win- 9/27 FG, 1/7 3P, 2/2 FT, 21 pts, 11 reb, 1 ast, and a -4 +/-. He had a big 4Q which is essentially where he did all of his damage, but the Mavs wouldn't have even been in the game if it weren't for the play of Marion, Kidd, Barrea, and particularly Jason Terry who went 11/16 from the field and dropped 27 points. 

 

So, there you have it. Dirk was fine (although if you take away his FT shooting his offensive numbers get pretty ugly), and he definitely stepped it up in a couple of different 4Q's, but in no way did he put the team on his back and carry them to a title. 2011 Dallas is the quintessential example of a team effort to win a title. Claiming that Dirk carried them there is 100% revisionist history. 

Correct. Dirk was great. He didn’t have a triple double every game, and he had a lot of great role player help. Revisionist history for sure. I can’t believe this is even an argument and idiotic takes are getting 3 upvotes. 

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1 hour ago, Goo Punch said:

the tl;dr version- if someone carries a team to a title then you can say, "Player X is the only reason that team won." That is nowhere near the case with the 2011 Finals. Dirk certainly had the highest USG for Dallas, but it was a total team effort to win it all, and the Mavs actually lost the one game where he did carry them. 

 

edit- if I had to say one single person was the most responsible for the title it would be Rick Carlisle. Dallas's team defense was the real hero. They held an absolutely stacked Miami team to 92, 93, 88, 83, 103, and 95 points. That's fuckin unbelievable, and it ain't because Dirk was out there locking down LBJ or anything. Total team/coaching win. 

Agreed totally on Carlisle. He is a fantastic coach

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