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Baboontyme

James Riddle Hoffa

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The Irishman has piqued interest in this subject again, and rather than pollute the thread about the movie, I thought I might start a thread about the actual case. 

I was born 2 years after Hoffa disappeared, but it was always a subject of interest being local, and my upbringing involved some influence from labor unions. Different trade, but Old Man Baboon even ran his own local, had a position on the International, and not only did I "intern" during High School in the office taking phone calls and doing errands for pops and his various ultra shady Business Agents but later during college breaks I actually worked the trades on permits and got to see what my life would be like if I dropped out of college. Rouge Steel ain't no disco. Did not want. 

At any rate, years ago my dad told me about Charles Brandt's book, I Heard You Paint Houses and told me that he believed this account. I read the book in my late 20s and became intrigued with the subject. I've since read the book 3 or 4 more times, and just finished reading it again on the heels of watching the movie because I wanted to refresh myself on what was true to the book and what wasn't. 

I also have read numerous articles debunking "The Irishman"s claims, including some by very prominent sources, including Dan Moldea, who may be the foremost expert on the subject. 

I am interested in reading more books on the subject, and mafioso in general around that period, should anyone have any recommendations. 

As to where I land on Sheeran, and the Hoffa case in particular, if you ask me, though I can somewhat sympathize with Frank's state of mind during the period of interviews with Brandt, I could easily see him being an exaggerator and/or bullshitter. Yet what I find particularly compelling are some of the details he provides. That coupled with Frank being one of the 9 (or 12) suspects being named in the Hoffex memo and some comments from Hoffa Jr, Moldea and others, as well as retracing the route, and I am 95% convinced that the story he laid out is mostly true. Whether he pulled the trigger or not, I'm not sure. Could be one of those details he chose to fudge. Moldea thinks it was Sally Bugs. But that doesn't change the back story or the setup, only the trigger man. 

In regards to the Joey Gallo hit, despite conventional knowledge, I come away from this book being 99% convinced that this was indeed a Sheeran hit. Again...details. I have no idea how this old man could have supplied them the way that he did if they were not true. In addition his account was (according to Brandt) corroborated by now deceased homicide detective assigned to the case Joe Coffey, and an eye witness. Coffey apparently told Brandt that they put out a story of 3 gunmen just to weed out fake tips. Couple that with the Gallo bodyguard account of having an encounter with Buffalino and Frank earlier at a nightclub...it seems more than plausible. 

I believe that Chuckie O'Brien (unwittingly) and Frank Sheeran (wittingly) were involved in picking up Hoffa at the Machus Red Fox. He would not have gotten into a car at that point in time given the political climate if those two were not present. This was a public place, even being a parking lot. I believe that they were driven to a house in Detroit off of 7 Mile, on Beaverland. I believe that Hoffa was killed in that house. And I believe that his body was incinerated either at the Grand Lawn Cemetery or at the Bagnasco Cemetery in St. Clair Shores. 

Interested in other perspectives, if there are any here.  

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I read the book and then watched the movie. The book was great. The movie was good but overrated. 

I don’t know much about the Hoffa case or the rebuttals to Brandt’s story, but what I read seemed plausible. I’m interested to see where the thread goes. I was born after Hoffa disappeared, but the story has never truly left the mainstream and it’s always intrigued me in terms of whether or not they’d find his remains or solve the case. 

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20 minutes ago, closetojumping said:

I read the book and then watched the movie. The book was great. The movie was good but overrated. 

I don’t know much about the Hoffa case or the rebuttals to Brandt’s story, but what I read seemed plausible. I’m interested to see where the thread goes. I was born after Hoffa disappeared, but the story has never truly left the mainstream and it’s always intrigued me in terms of whether or not they’d find his remains or solve the case. 

I think I said this in the thread about the movie. I can easily see Frank being somewhat of a bullshitter - or more accurately an exaggerator. You listen to his stories, retold by Brandt, and the way he liked to talk on the phone, etc, and you form a picture. But you also have to take into account the amount of respect he was shown, in his Union appreciation banquet, and some of the things that Brandt witnessed, in addition to, hell, the fact that he was allowed to live out his life. Some of the accounts I've read about him being a bullshitter only ring half true. He may have been one, but this guy was no minor pawn in the game. He had a role, clearly. And the details...that is what truly gets me. He may have worked in Detroit and been somewhat familiar with Detroit and the layout. But a Philly guy, recounting his steps from the Pontiac (Oakland County) Airport, past the Red Fox, to 7 Mile, over the bridge, past the footbridge, right onto Beaverland, to the house with brown shingles, recounting the original layout...it's uncanny. Whether he pulled the trigger or not is pretty pedestrian to me. This is what happened. 

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43 minutes ago, Baboontyme said:

I am interested in reading more books on the subject, and mafioso in general around that period, should anyone have any recommendations. 

Give American Tabloid by James Ellroy a shot if you haven't already. Its historical fiction, but a good read. 

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Baboontyme said:

The Irishman has piqued interest in this subject again, and rather than pollute the thread about the movie, I thought I might start a thread about the actual case. 

I was born 2 years after Hoffa disappeared, but it was always a subject of interest being local, and my upbringing involved some influence from labor unions. Different trade, but Old Man Baboon even ran his own local, had a position on the International, and not only did I "intern" during High School in the office taking phone calls and doing errands for pops and his various ultra shady Business Agents but later during college breaks I actually worked the trades on permits and got to see what my life would be like if I dropped out of college. Rouge Steel ain't no disco. Did not want. 

At any rate, years ago my dad told me about Charles Brandt's book, I Heard You Paint Houses and told me that he believed this account. I read the book in my late 20s and became intrigued with the subject. I've since read the book 3 or 4 more times, and just finished reading it again on the heels of watching the movie because I wanted to refresh myself on what was true to the book and what wasn't. 

I also have read numerous articles debunking "The Irishman"s claims, including some by very prominent sources, including Dan Moldea, who may be the foremost expert on the subject. 

I am interested in reading more books on the subject, and mafioso in general around that period, should anyone have any recommendations. 

As to where I land on Sheeran, and the Hoffa case in particular, if you ask me, though I can somewhat sympathize with Frank's state of mind during the period of interviews with Brandt, I could easily see him being an exaggerator and/or bullshitter. Yet what I find particularly compelling are some of the details he provides. That coupled with Frank being one of the 9 (or 12) suspects being named in the Hoffex memo and some comments from Hoffa Jr, Moldea and others, as well as retracing the route, and I am 95% convinced that the story he laid out is mostly true. Whether he pulled the trigger or not, I'm not sure. Could be one of those details he chose to fudge. Moldea thinks it was Sally Bugs. But that doesn't change the back story or the setup, only the trigger man. 

In regards to the Joey Gallo hit, despite conventional knowledge, I come away from this book being 99% convinced that this was indeed a Sheeran hit. Again...details. I have no idea how this old man could have supplied them the way that he did if they were not true. In addition his account was (according to Brandt) corroborated by now deceased homicide detective assigned to the case Joe Coffey, and an eye witness. Coffey apparently told Brandt that they put out a story of 3 gunmen just to weed out fake tips. Couple that with the Gallo bodyguard account of having an encounter with Buffalino and Frank earlier at a nightclub...it seems more than plausible. 

I believe that Chuckie O'Brien (unwittingly) and Frank Sheeran (wittingly) were involved in picking up Hoffa at the Machus Red Fox. He would not have gotten into a car at that point in time given the political climate if those two were not present. This was a public place, even being a parking lot. I believe that they were driven to a house in Detroit off of 7 Mile, on Beaverland. I believe that Hoffa was killed in that house. And I believe that his body was incinerated either at the Grand Lawn Cemetery or at the Bagnasco Cemetery in St. Clair Shores. 

Interested in other perspectives, if there are any here.  

I’ll buy Frank was present at Hoffa’s execution. Who shot Hoffa really doesn’t matter in my opinion. 

I believe the Gallo hit was debunked by the NYPD. There’s a named suspect out there, and it’s not Frank. I don’t think he was involved in this one. 

The Tony Salerno angle is interesting to me, because Salerno wasn’t the boss of the Genovese Family. He was the front boss, while Vincent Gigante was the real boss behind the scenes. Similar to Junior being the front man while Tony ran the family on the Sopranos. What did Gigante think of Hoffa and Tony Pro? I guess we’ll never know. 

Edited by billfromlaketravis

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25 minutes ago, tx 3 putt said:

I read this as baboon’s dad murdered Hoffa 

I love the Jack Nicholson ‘Hoffa’ movie 

Gagreed.  Gets better with repeated viewings.  

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Posted (edited)
15 hours ago, billfromlaketravis said:

I’ll buy Frank was present at Hoffa’s execution. Who shot Hoffa really doesn’t matter in my opinion. 

I believe the Gallo hit was debunked by the NYPD. There’s a named suspect out there, and it’s not Frank. I don’t think he was involved in this one. 

The Tony Salerno angle is interesting to me, because Salerno wasn’t the boss of the Genovese Family. He was the front boss, while Vincent Gigante was the real boss behind the scenes. Similar to Junior being the front man while Tony ran the family on the Sopranos. What did Gigante think of Hoffa and Tony Pro? I guess we’ll never know. 

That's interesting. Not touched on by Brandt or Frank and I had not heard that. It's why I want to read more.

Also thought your point about Pro in the other thread was interesting. From what I read in the book, I actually thought he was portrayed fairly accurately.

I also agree that who actually pulled the trigger doesn't matter.

I really want Andretta or Chuckie to come clean before they go. 

Edited by Baboontyme

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7 minutes ago, Baboontyme said:

That's interesting. Not touched on by Brandt or Frank and I had not heard that. It's why I want to read more.

Also thought your point about Pro in the other thread was interesting. From what I read in the book, I actually thought he was portrayed fairly accurately.

I also agree that who actually pulled the trigger doesn't matter.

I really want Andretta or Chuckie to come clean before they go. 

Andretta died last year. Chuckie is 85, but I doubt he talks. The long piece in The Alantic is pretty damning if true. The guy is a piece of shit. The mob killed Hoffa and destroyed his body. I guess what interests people is how it happened and who exactly was involved. 

Salerno was certainly a powerful figure in the mob. He was probably a capo in 1975. It’s unclear how he would have been Pro’s superior. Pro’s Jersey Crew was one of the most powerful in the Genovese Family. 

Concealing the real boss is a favorite trick of the Genovese. They’ve been doing it since the 1960’s. They use the street/front boss as a lightning rod to take the hits from law enforcement. It doesn’t really matter who the boss was in 1975. Pro didn’t kill Hoffa without the OK from higher ups. 

It’s dated, but Five Families by Selwyn Raab is an excellent read. It provides detailed histories of each of the families and their leadership up to 2000.

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Slate posted a long piece in August that blows holes in Sheeran's/Brandt's book. It reads a lot like a hit piece for clicks, but it does raise some valid concerns. https://slate.com/culture/2019/08/the-irishman-scorsese-netflix-movie-true-story-lies.html

It describes Sheeran as a hanger on in Philly and complete unknown in Detroit. So Frank either worked exclusively and quietly for Buffalino, or he's bullshitting. 

My conclusions : 

- No, hell no Sheeran killed Gallo. I question if he was even in New York City at the time. 

- Again, I think Sheeran was there or nearby when Hoffa was killed. 

 

Chuckie predictably hates the movie. https://www.esquire.com/entertainment/movies/a30397080/irishman-chuckie-obrien-true-story/

 

 

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On 1/2/2020 at 12:06 AM, Blotto said:

Give American Tabloid by James Ellroy a shot if you haven't already. Its historical fiction, but a good read. 

honestly one of the best books I've ever read.

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Michael Franzese has a bunch of YouTube interviews where he claims he knows exactly who shot Hoffa but he ain't telling.  He does say that Shearan is full of shit about it though.

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On 2/14/2020 at 11:31 AM, Parliament said:

Who whacked him?  The FBI?

I always thought the union or the mafia.  Not sure what reason the FBI would have to kill him (not that they probably need a reason).  I thought it was one of Nicholsons best roles.

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