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Posted
2 minutes ago, Litig8r said:

I'm going to try that and save a couple of hunnerd

 

It's the kind of cheap bastard I am. :) 

 

But yes, it only takes a few minutes to get a smooth shiny surface.  It takes a little longer to build up seasoning, but no different than a carbon steel pan really.

Posted
On 5/12/2020 at 4:33 PM, 52-80 said:

Smitheys command a $100 premium over lodge, on the basis of 15 minutes of labor for polishing.

 

It is literally their marketed differentiator, "our pans have a nice smooth interior compared to the rough surfaces of existing commercial pans"

Smithey pans look great but way too expensive. Put in the time and find the vintage stuff from Wagner or Griswold. There used to be a great online retailer who sold it but she closed up shop a few years ago. It was called The Panhanlder or something like that. 

 

On 5/12/2020 at 4:48 PM, Upgrayedd said:

Oh, I get it.  I refurbed my grandmother's cast iron skillet.  Almost 100 years old.  Wagner.  The good stuff.  

Easy off oven cleaner.  Little steel wool and a little more easy off.  Rinse.  Coca cola bath.  Rinse.  Oven-dry.  Season.  Easy-peasy.

Have several Wagner cast iron pans of various sizes as well as a deeper CI pan/pot for frying chicken.

 

On 5/12/2020 at 4:59 PM, 52-80 said:

My friend does that as a hobby.  Apparently theres a not-insignificant community of cast iron fetishists who seeks this vintage stuff and 'restores' them for fun.

surface supposed to aid adhesion.. but people dont have problems developing seasoning on carbon steel pans and woks.  personally i think dealing with either for daily use is a PITA.  i get the appeal for doing a rustic outdoor cook, but for day to day stuff i just go with SS

My FIL is one. He's got dozens and dozens of cast iron pan cookware. He doesn't use it. It's displayed in his wild game trophy room. I'm getting the good shit when he passes. He's already gifted me a few things.

 

23 minutes ago, Litig8r said:

Man there is huge difference in cast iron pans.  Lodge is everywhere now but the surface is so rough.  I bought a couple of Smithey.  (humblebrag) What a difference.  

Find some vintage stuff -- Wagner or Griswold. The original Lodge cast-iron was smooth. I have a Lodge pan from my ex-wife's grandmother that my current father-in-law brought back from the dead. It's a smooth Lodge that is over 100 years. My FIL probably has well over 50 pieces of cast iron cookware that he's collected over the years.

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, C-Man said:

The original Lodge cast-iron was smooth

My understanding is that they are cast in sand and, at some point, they began using a coarse sand.  Lodge's Blacklock pans are a little smoother, but still not completely smooth.

Edited by dcbc
Posted
1 minute ago, dcbc said:

My understanding is that they are cast in sand and, at some point, they began using a coarse sand.  I think Lodge has a higher end line that is smooth though.

If I remember the story from my FIL, Lodge started getting "bumpy" when they started coating them while hanging from the handle on hooks above the ground. I'll have to ask him. (He's done several cast iron talks to his various professional groups -- Rotary Club, Retired Dentist Associations, etc.) Lodge also bought out Wagner and Griswold during WW2???

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, C-Man said:

If I remember the story from my FIL, Lodge started getting "bumpy" when they started coating them while hanging from the handle on hooks above the ground. I'll have to ask him. (He's done several cast iron talks to his various professional groups -- Rotary Club, Retired Dentist Associations, etc.) Lodge also bought out Wagner and Griswold during WW2???

According to Google, I was a little wrong earlier.  They are indeed rough because they are cast in sand.  Around 1960, they stopped mechanically smoothing the surface to save on production costs.  To me that makes sense.  If it were the seasoning application that made it rough, it would have smoothed out over several years of use before I got tired of it and sanded it down.  But I'm not expert.  So I'd love to hear what your FIL has to say about it.

 

 

Edited by dcbc
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Posted

My highly likely dunning Kruger influenced opinion based on making French toast and fried eggs in my not-very-old lodge comal every single morning is that none of this matters much if you have a bit of butter, the right temp, and a metal spatula.

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, Celery Man said:

My highly likely dunning Kruger influenced opinion based on making French toast and fried eggs in my not-very-old lodge comal every single morning is that none of this matters much if you have a bit of butter, the right temp, and a metal spatula.

Yeah, over the years, I've gradually figured out how to use this stuff better.  I just clean it and make sure it's smooth.  Usually, this is just a brush, a little soap, and hot water.  Since soap doesn't contain lye these days, have at it, and get all the stuck on food off.  If I need more than this, I have a chain mail scrubber that makes quick work of it.  

 

I let it dry on the burner for a minute or two.  If it looks like it needs a little maintenance, I'll put a tiny bit of oil on it, rub it in, and leave it on low for 15 minutes.  Let it cool, put it away.  I don't care what it looks like as long as it works.  

 

Temperature control and enough oil/butter is the key.

Edited by dcbc
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Posted (edited)
19 hours ago, dcbc said:

According to Google, I was a little wrong earlier.  They are indeed rough because they are cast in sand.  Around 1960, they stopped mechanically smoothing the surface to save on production costs.  To me that makes sense.  If it were the seasoning application that made it rough, it would have smoothed out over several years of use before I got tired of it and sanded it down.  But I'm not expert.  So I'd love to hear what your FIL has to say about it.

 

 

In case you were unaware, most cast iron anything is cast in sand.  Engine blocks, skillets, you name it.

I was shocked to learn in the 80s that it remains, to this day, one of the dominant methods of casting iron and other alloys.

And there's a lot of science or technique that goes into it.  What kind of sand you use, how often you change it, whether and for how long you tamp the mold before casting to compact the sand, and so on, that provide opportunities for cost-cutting and enshittification.

And some other things, like high-clay-content sand can make smoother castings.  But the water content of clay molecules means they explode on contact with molten iron or other metals, which sends silica molecules into the atmosphere and creates silicosis problems for casting workers.  And once the clay gets burned, like pottery, it goes from a fine colloid in the sand to big burnt clods, making castings rougher when you don't change the sand.

Also, one of my lifelong fascinations is the amount of technology (engineering and ingenuity) that goes into manufacturing even a prosaic, no-moving-parts item like a cast-iron skillet.

Edited by TwiceHorn
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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, Steel Shank said:

Making sure the skillet gets up to temperature (slowly) is also important when it comes to nonsticking.

And induction to prevent warping, but that's just an issue with carbon steel pans. 

 

But it's a good point.  Cast iron and carbon steel are poor conductors of heat, which is one of their strengths when it comes to searing meat, i.e., not releasing all of the heat at once.  So by heating it up slowly, you're allowing the whole pan to heat up and hopefully avoiding hot spots that could cause sticking.

Edited by dcbc
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Posted
1 hour ago, TwiceHorn said:

In case you were unaware, most cast iron anything is cast in sand.  Engine blocks, skillets, you name it.

I was shocked to learn in the 80s that it remains, to this day, one of the dominant methods of casting iron and other alloys.

And there's a lot of science or technique that goes into it.  What kind of sand you use, how often you change it, whether and for how long you tamp the mold before casting to compact the sand, and so on, that provide opportunities for cost-cutting and enshittification.

And some other things, like high-clay-content sand can make smoother castings.  But the water content of clay molecules means they explode on contact with molten iron or other metals, which sends silica molecules into the atmosphere and creates silicosis problems for casting workers.  And once the clay gets burned, like pottery, it goes from a fine colloid in the sand to big burnt clods, making castings rougher when you don't change the sand.

Also, one of my lifelong fascinations is the amount of technology (engineering and ingenuity) that goes into manufacturing even a prosaic, no-moving-parts item like a cast-iron skillet.

It's really cool.  They talk a little about the composition of the mold (sand, clay, water), as well as the precise temperature range they have to have the molten pig-iron in to prevent some of the things you're talking about, as well as to preserve the structural integrity of the pan.  Really interesting, and this video is just the dumbed down version of it all.

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Posted
1 hour ago, TwiceHorn said:

Also, one of my lifelong fascinations is the amount of technology (engineering and ingenuity) that goes into manufacturing even a prosaic, no-moving-parts item like a cast-iron skillet.

manufacturing science/eng is fascinating.  thats why those 'how its made' videos are so popular. the older i get the more interested i am in topics that wouldve bored by teenage-self to death.  

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Posted

I know this is a cast iron discussion but maybe y'all can help. I need to replace my All Clad non-stick 10-inch pan and skillet. The pan got too hot without anything in it one time and has a weird haze to it. I haven't used it much since but I'm sure I'm slowly poisoning myself every time I do use it. The skillet is even worse. I'm interested in carbon steel but there's lots of choices out there. And they get spendy. My next door neighbor is a fantastic cook and he just replaces his non-stick pans from Costco every year. That's not usually how I roll.

Posted
4 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

In case you were unaware, most cast iron anything is cast in sand.  Engine blocks, skillets, you name it.

I was shocked to learn in the 80s that it remains, to this day, one of the dominant methods of casting iron and other alloys.

And there's a lot of science or technique that goes into it.  What kind of sand you use, how often you change it, whether and for how long you tamp the mold before casting to compact the sand, and so on, that provide opportunities for cost-cutting and enshittification.

In my prior life I co-developed, designed and manufactured large energy storage M/G/FW devices.  The housings were cast iron, many inches thick.  It took a lot of trial and error to dial in the tolerancing, draft angles, chimney locations etc.  Those cast iron shops have so much experience, we never could have come up with those processes on our own.  Here's a photo of one device with half the housing in place:

image.png.8fb2495347110e3bdc1d9c7e59282cf5.png

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, C-Man said:

I know this is a cast iron discussion but maybe y'all can help. I need to replace my All Clad non-stick 10-inch pan and skillet. The pan got too hot without anything in it one time and has a weird haze to it. I haven't used it much since but I'm sure I'm slowly poisoning myself every time I do use it. The skillet is even worse. I'm interested in carbon steel but there's lots of choices out there. And they get spendy. My next door neighbor is a fantastic cook and he just replaces his non-stick pans from Costco every year. That's not usually how I roll.

I abandoned nonstick for C/S.  I have a mix of Matfer-Bourgeat and De Buyer.  I recommend either of the brands, but the De Buyer are a bit more expensive and robust.  That said, they run sales on their website frequently.  

 

Some notes:

 

The De Buyer "Minderal B" line has an epoxy coating on the handle.  They come with a warning that they can be in the oven for 10 minutes max at 400.  I've seasoned mine in the oven with some foil wrapped around the handle and the coating was not damaged.  But if you like De Buyer and want to put it in the oven, the "Pro" version has a nice, stainless handle.  If you have a gas cooktop though, the regular Mineral B will be fine because you easily can season on the cooktop and a little oven time isn't a big deal.  But the Pro is only $30 more.

 

Matfer is comparably priced to the regular Mineral B, and its 11 7/8" pan was the gold standard for years.  The handle is uncoated, and putting it in the oven is a non-issue.  The rivitless handle design is nice too.  But (full disclosure) last year, a local French agency tested their cookware by boiling an acid solution in a bare (unseasoned) pan for 2 hours and the result was some leached chemicals that are no bueno.  But it's pretty common knowledge that (1) you season these pans and (2) you don't put acidic solutions in them, which strip seasoning.  So under ordinary use, this test is ludicrous, and I have continued to use my two Matfer pans without worry.  Also, in theory, there probably aren't many similar products which would perform differently under this same standard.

 

Both pans have pretty good sloped sides (other than the De Buyer omelet pans and the crepe pans).  So you want to research how much cook area you get (my 10" Matfer has 7" of cooking area for instance), and go from there.  

 

Lastly, do not expect a carbon steel pan to perform like Teflon.  They are very good alternatives and will last forever.  With room temperature eggs and a good pat of butter, I can have fried eggs sliding around like hockey pucks.  But a little sticking will happen, particularly when pan frying proteins.  It's not bad though.  You can clean these and cast iron with soap without issue (previously, this was discouraged when soaps contained lye).  

I don't think you can go wrong with either of these brands.  Heat them slowly, especially if you use them on an induction HOB (induction HOBs have warped C/S pans when put on blast, but most pans, including the two above, incorporate a slightly upward bow in the base to fight this tendency).

 

Edited by dcbc
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Posted

Second all that.  I went with Matfer because of the handle being able to withstand any oven temp, but I don't think you can go wrong with either brand.  If you do want a non stick pan down the road, be like you neighbor and buy cheap and replace cheap.  Even your high end all clad non stick has a limited life.

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Posted

I just don't see any reason at all to buy non-stick. Any advantage they have is offset with disadvantages. Combo of stainless, carbon steel, and cast iron is all you need for the rest of your life.

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Posted
14 hours ago, Steel Shank said:

Making sure the skillet gets up to temperature (slowly) is also important when it comes to nonsticking.

First thing I do when I come downstairs in the morning is stick the pan on the burner on about medium heat. Pack backpacks, lunch, pour coffee, slice bananas, prepare french toast, etc before I put a half tbsp of butter on the pan where it melts quickly and bubbles gently. Drop the eggs or whatever it is in and let it sit for a minute before fucking with it.

 

I do like cooking on the comal because low sides makes it easy to work with the spatula 

IMG_6715.thumb.jpeg.03eb075204c8954acf3e8e3a4c6d7abf.jpeg

 

I think most decent quality nonstick pans are comparable and none of them last for more than a couple of years. Don’t break the bank on them and replace them when they’re old or your wife superheats them empty. 

 

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Posted

I use a bit of de Buyer for carbon steel. Just haven't had a chance to try a Matfer. I also have a few Darto for fun, supports a good cause. Less finished, heavier duty. They used to run really good sales including shipping but now with tariffs I don't expect that anytime soon.

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Posted
6 hours ago, jimmyjazz said:

In my prior life I co-developed, designed and manufactured large energy storage M/G/FW devices.  The housings were cast iron, many inches thick.  It took a lot of trial and error to dial in the tolerancing, draft angles, chimney locations etc.  Those cast iron shops have so much experience, we never could have come up with those processes on our own.  Here's a photo of one device with half the housing in place:

image.png.8fb2495347110e3bdc1d9c7e59282cf5.png

Tooling generally is almost a black art. Sand casting is necromancy. 

Posted
6 hours ago, Celery Man said:

First thing I do when I come downstairs in the morning is stick the pan on the burner on about medium heat. Pack backpacks, lunch, pour coffee, slice bananas, prepare french toast, etc before I put a half tbsp of butter on the pan where it melts quickly and bubbles gently. Drop the eggs or whatever it is in and let it sit for a minute before fucking with it.

 

I do like cooking on the comal because low sides makes it easy to work with the spatula 

All this. I turn the heat on the skillet before I start my coffee.

Posted (edited)
22 minutes ago, Steel Shank said:

All this. I turn the heat on the skillet before I start my coffee.

My omelet routine is structured around the pan's heating up. 

 

Pan on the induction cooktop.  Temp level 2.  Go to the refrigerator and get the eggs and butter.  Get a bowl out of the cabinet.  Turn on water until it runs hot.  Put the eggs in the bowl with the hot water to take the chill off of them.  Wave hand over the pan to see how it's heating up.  Coffee was on a timer, so I pour myself a cup and drink.  After a few minutes, I take the eggs out and pour the water out of the bowl.  Turn temp level on the cooktop to 3.  Crack eggs into the bowl, add a splash of cold water and a pinch of kosher salt to them and beat until smooth.  Turn the temp level on the cooktop to 4.  Pull a plate down.  Cut a pat of butter and set the knife with the butter stuck to it to the plate.  Check the temp.  Get a silicone spatula from the drawer.  Butter into the pan.  Once it's done bubbling, Temp to 5 and eggs in.  Stir and shake and do that omelet thing.  Temp down to 4.  Keep them moving, clear the sides, start moving things to the bottom of the pan.  Temp to 3.  Keep spreading things around.  HOB off.  Roll and flip onto the plate.  Add pepper and chives. 

Edited by dcbc
Posted
Just now, dcbc said:

Pan on the induction cooktop.  Temp level 2.  Go to the refrigerator and get the eggs and butter.  Get a bowl out of the cabinet.  Turn on water until it runs hot.  Put the eggs in the bowl with the hot water to take the chill off of them.  Wave hand over the pan to see how it's heating up.  Coffee was on a timer, so I pour myself a cup and drink.  After a few minutes, I take the eggs out and pour the water out of the bowl.  Turn temp level on the cooktop to 3.  Crack eggs into the bowl, add a splash of cold water and a pinch of kosher salt to them and beat until smooth.  Turn the temp level on the cooktop to 4.  Pull a plate down.  Cut a pat of butter and set the knife with the butter stuck to it to the plate.  Check the temp.  Get a silicone spatula from the drawer.  Butter into the pan.  Once it's done bubbling, Temp to 5 and eggs in.  Stir and shake and do that omelet thing.  Temp down to 4.  Keep them moving, clear the sides, start moving things to the bottom of the pan.  Temp to 3.  Keep spreading things around.  HOB off.  Roll and flip onto the plate.  Add pepper and chives. 

bingo

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Posted

I have DeBuyer for carbon.  They're really fucking heavy though and I would advise you do a wife-check before deciding to buy such things.  (Mine doesnt touch them).

Darto is an option out of Argentina. We have local distribution from a bunch of Spanish manufacturers of carbon pans and those are good too... I mean its just a pressed/spun disc of carbon-steel material afterall.

Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, 52-80 said:

I have DeBuyer for carbon.  They're really fucking heavy though and I would advise you do a wife-check before deciding to buy such things.  (Mine doesnt touch them).

Darto is an option out of Argentina. We have local distribution from a bunch of Spanish manufacturers of carbon pans and those are good too... I mean its just a pressed/spun disc of carbon-steel material afterall.

Mine doesn't even know where they are.  But they are heavy.  Still a pound or two shy of cast iron in most cases.  But that 32 cm De Buyer pan is 3mm thick and definitely pushing cast iron territory.  For a first pan, better to go with the 11".  I've heard of Darto, but I haven't tried them.  From all I've heard, they're good pans.  The handle angle looks odd in pictures, but I'd probably get used to it in a minute or two.

 

In the end, there are so many different brands out there, your head will spin.  I'd stay away from anything too thin (I'd say minimum 2.5mm).  Any thinner, and you're giving up some heat retention, which is part of the point.

Edited by dcbc
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Posted
27 minutes ago, dcbc said:

Mine doesn't even know where they are.  But they are heavy.  Still a pound or two shy of cast iron in most cases.  But that 32 cm De Buyer pan is 3mm thick and definitely pushing cast iron territory.  

The other thing is the Lodge skillets are taller-sided pans, almost like a Saute pan, and you tend to use them in-place almost like a dutch pot.

The carbon skillets are shallower and slopey, so you tend to pick them up more like a classic frying pan, and thats not easy when loaded with food.  They also dont have the dual handle like Lodge CIs do for heavy carrying.

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