Abbott being Abbott

[Captainant 26861]

4 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

It's quite the world we live in where we decide to reframe the uniquely female ability to bring life into this world, by casting that ability into one where their female qualities are actually empowered by the ability to snuff one out before it comes into the world. 

Now see, this gets to the core of the argument against abortion. Having been raised southern baptist and inundated with their propoganda for nearly 20 years, I definitely have a reflexive "abortion bad" stance and I agree that past a certain point its closer to murder than it isnt. 

But. I'm not a woman and I don't think it's my place to tell women how they should feel and how they should live. Especially with respect to something that I as a man will never have to face the consequences of first hand. 

I also think that an outright ban is going to cause more pain and harm to the mothers that the dogmatically anti abortion folks claim they want to protect (and definitely not control)

[mchookem 15430]

to be clear, i wasn't making a judgement other than based on libertarian political arguments i've seen @Anastasis make i was actually surprised at the vehemence of the initial response. 

having said that, in line with my comment above re: the Catholic church...i can at least respect a consistent pro-life stance, even if i do not agree.

[JimmyJames 12267]

3 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

On this we agree.  There is no political solution to the issue. Social and moral death spiral imo.  

I have always hated abortion. I would never ask a woman to get one.  I have also always hated state regulation of abortion. Where doesn’t that leave me on the issue. I don’t know. I guess it means I would rather we don’t discuss it. Is that cowardly? Maybe so. Or maybe it means there is no answer. 

[Bama Chick 28595]

A bunch of old men trying to regulate something growing inside a women's body is barbaric. 

We sure do! That’s when this discussion goes plaid and the actual women become abstract and theoretical.

We love that shit.

[Anastasis 23191]

Just now, mchookem said:

to be clear, i wasn't making a judgement other than based on libertarian political arguments i've seen @Anastasis make i was actually surprised at the vehemence of the initial response. 

having said that, in line with my comment above re: the Catholic church...i can at least respect a consistent pro-life stance, even if i do not agree.

I've been around the block a few times wrt both the abortion debate and the death penalty one on this board. There aren't really any surprises in any of these arguments, at least from me, at this point.  Although I do try to work in new wrinkles from time to time, such as the juxtaposition of the traditional defining quality of the female being one of bringing life into this world transitioning to the definition of feminine empowerment based on the ability to snuff one out of her own regard.  

 

 

[Bama Chick 28595]

Women are traditionally defined by their ability to give life?

Miss me with that.

[TwiceHorn 30715]

On 5/18/2021 at 4:00 PM, Ag with kids said:

The local gov't only had the power to issue mandates because king Abbott granted it to them last year with his emergency EOs.

So, are you happy you have a king Abbott or mad you have a king Abbott?

False.  https://statutes.capitol.texas.gov/Docs/GV/htm/GV.418.htm  See in particular 418.108.

[HenryJames 64901]

I think women should be allowed to have abortions as long as they smile more.

[Woland 695]

I wish abortions did not occur. My question is this...If we outlaw abortions, what evidence is there that the War on Abortions will be any more successful than the War on Drugs? If the goal is reducing/eliminating abortion, criminalization seems a bad strategy.

[workswithseed 2012]

40 minutes ago, mchookem said:

fwiw i also am surprised bc i thought you were pure libertarian.

 

and this is a good question sort of...but i would say 'pro-life or anti-choice' as literally nobody thinks abortions are awesome. 

having said that, you bring up a good point... it's always seemed the height of hypocrisy to me for someone to be pro-life and also pro-capital punishment. if you believe 'all life is sacred'... then all life is sacred.

one of the few issues i give credit to the Catholic church for, they are ideologically consistent in their pro-life stance. 

I would disagree with "literally no one," but I don't want to get into another abortion debate in the Abbott thread. I'm glad that Protestants changed their tune on the subject since it makes more sense biblically. Even if it's because of those pompous Catholics. Just kidding, sorta. I've changed my tune on a lot of things, One of those is state sanctioned murder. I don't know if I could totally be against it yet, but the quote "I'd rather let 10 guilty men go free, if it means that 1 innocent is prisoned" kinda puts me in a bind since I agree with it too much.

[Anastasis 23191]

4 minutes ago, Bama Chick said:

Women are traditionally defined by their ability to give life?

Miss me with that.

Women have the unique and awesome ability to bring human life into this world. Sorry that that is lost on you. 

Edited May 20, 2021 by Anastasis

[Hank Scorpio 17691]

As a Texas citizen this law is disgusting and I will do everything I can to oppose it. As a lawyer this is a great bill that gives me thousands of potential new clients to sue those greedy abortion clinics into the ground. The days of Planned Parenthood millionaire doctors facing no repercussions for providing free pre natal care to underprivileged women are over. 

[JimmyJames 12267]

Unless and until the state is prepared to care for potentially aborted babies then it should not be forbidden. It’s currently not able or willing to, so preventing it should not be allowed.
 

As for the death penalty, the state should not ever impose it until its able and willing to do so in a non discriminatory manner. It currently is not able to do so, so it should also be disallowed. 
 

These are the hard truths. 

[Hank Scorpio 17691]

3 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Women have the unique and awesome ability to bring human life into this world. Sorry that that is lost on you. 

Exactly! Sometimes you really have to spell it out for these dumb bitches. 

[mchookem 15430]

i mean it's not like we can just spontaneously shoot out a kid, we do need some assistance 😐

also, as a woman who chose not to have children, fuck 'tradition'.

[Bama Chick 28595]

Yes I had my two kids by asexual reproduction.

Men betta not hope women figure that shit out.

[Hank Scorpio 17691]

Manslpaining what it means to be a woman to a woman is the final test before you get your Libertarian black belt (every Libertarian obviously takes karate classes) 

[Bama Chick 28595]

Not just what it means.

Being told that’s what defines you is just

[JimmyJames 12267]

10 minutes ago, Bama Chick said:

Yes I had my two kids by asexual reproduction.

Men betta not hope women figure that shit out.

The problem with you women is no matter how stupid men constantly act, and it is constant, you just can’t quite quit us. Through my travels I’ve think I figured out why but I’ll refrain from mansplaining it. 

[softlynow 1612]

Anastasis channeling his inner Escriva/Laphroaig/LonghornLaw the last couple pages. Good stuff.

[Anastasis 23191]

1 minute ago, softlynow said:

Anastasis channeling his inner Escriva/Laphroaig/LonghornLaw the last couple pages. Good stuff.

I suppose barbarism as a form of self-empowerment is a progressive quality to be lauded. 

[softlynow 1612]

2 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

I suppose barbarism as a form of self-empowerment is a progressive quality to be lauded. 

I'm pro-life, too. I just think the tack you're taking to support our shared belief is misguided. It's not particularly persuasive and quite obviously offensive. Also a bit tantrum-ish. But I'm entertained, so . . . proceed.

[workswithseed 2012]

9 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

I suppose barbarism as a form of self-empowerment is a progressive quality to be lauded. 

 

[workswithseed 2012]

9 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

I suppose barbarism as a form of self-empowerment is a progressive quality to be lauded. 

 

[Captainant 26861]

4 minutes ago, softlynow said:

I'm pro-life, too. I just think the tack you're taking to support our shared belief is misguided. It's not particularly persuasive and quite obviously offensive. Also a bit tantrum-ish. But I'm entertained, so . . . proceed.

I'm just waiting for the heel turn both sides argument

[Bama Chick 28595]

lol both sides

If men got pregnant the Catholic Church would have a Saint Dilation and Curettage and abortion would be in the Bill of Rights.

I fucking wish y’all could get pregnant.

[Bama Chick 28595]

Fucking tapa

[JimmyJames 12267]

5 minutes ago, Bama Chick said:

lol both sides

If men got pregnant the Catholic Church would have a Saint Dilation and Curettage and abortion would be in the Bill of Rights.

I fucking wish y’all could get pregnant.

Yeah maybe but what ya gonna do.

[Reynolds Woodcock 4585]

Absolutely peak Anastasis on this page. It’s an art form.

[bonnieblue 542]

The people who would require one life to incubate and be subject to another (against their will) for almost a year are largely the same people who can’t even manage to wear a piece of fabric over their faces without throwing a tantrum. 
 

 

[workswithseed 2012]

8 minutes ago, Bama Chick said:

lol both sides

If men got pregnant the Catholic Church would have a Saint Dilation and Curettage and abortion would be in the Bill of Rights.

I fucking wish y’all could get pregnant.

So men can't get pregnant? I can't keep up with y'all.

[JimmyJames 12267]

Shit I’m actually tempted to defend old Anastasis up here right now.

But I guess I’ll just sit back.

[Born to Run 6186]

I'll follow up by saying I agree with what Bill Clinton said when nominated. I would prefer no woman have to choose. I would prefer that there be no abortions, that all pregnancies were welcome. I respect anybody trying to use persuasion to change a woman's mind about abortion so long as the persuasion is not intrusive.
But I'm not dictating to a woman that she have a child.

I would be cool if pro lifers switched thier efforts to reducing the need and amount of abortions. But in my life they have done zero to reduce demand. In fact many increase demand by insisting gays not adopt or that races shouldn't mix. Harder to adopt out = more abortions.
More rape - more abortions.

Not a shot at Ana at all but ...

[PenelopeWitherspoon 18303]

Women have the unique and awesome ability to bring human life into this world. Sorry that that is lost on you. 

Go fuck yourself. We live in a country where sex education teaches abstinence rather than protection, and birth control isn’t readily available to everyone at a cheap or reduced cost. Without a woman’s ability to control her body completely, she becomes a second class citizen.

[Anastasis 23191]

15 minutes ago, softlynow said:

I'm pro-life, too. I just think the tack you're taking to support our shared belief is misguided. It's not particularly persuasive and quite obviously offensive. Also a bit tantrum-ish. But I'm entertained, so . . . proceed.

Maybe one day you will chime in and advocate your pro-life position on this board, using your powers of persuasion. Or maybe not.

The abortion debate has broke many brains. We've turned empowering female qualities around live giving on their head, defining female empowerment instead on the alternative.   

 

[Longhorn_Fan68 33694]

1 minute ago, Anastasis said:

Maybe one day you will chime in and advocate your pro-life position on this board, using your powers of persuasion. Or maybe not.

The abortion debate has broke many brains. We've turned empowering female qualities around live giving on their head, defining female empowerment instead on the alternative.   

 

WHAT? no, seriously, what the fuck does that mean?

[Dr. Teeth 5737]

I read that way too many times thinking it would make sense. 

[Anastasis 23191]

Just now, Dr. Teeth said:

I read that way too many times thinking it would make sense. 

[WhatTheBuck 28574]

2 hours ago, RomaVicta said:

I'll follow up by saying I agree with what Bill Clinton said when nominated. I would prefer no woman have to choose. I would prefer that there be no abortions, that all pregnancies were welcome. I respect anybody trying to use persuasion to change a woman's mind about abortion so long as the persuasion is not intrusive.

But I'm not dictating to a woman that she have a child.

“Abortion should be safe, legal, and rare.”

[tantric superman 4667]

17 minutes ago, PenelopeWitherspoon said:

Go fuck yourself. We live in a country where sex education teaches abstinence rather than protection, and birth control isn’t readily available to everyone at a cheap or reduced cost. Without a woman’s ability to control her body completely, she becomes a second class citizen.

This is the primary and best argument.  But to me the most persuasive is whether you would want any of these pro-life assholes involved in any of your family decisions.  This roles back around to your argument.  This is a method of control, pure and simple.  And at it's most basic level a grotesque denial of liberty for women and those who they include in their personal decisions.

[Anastasis 23191]

21 minutes ago, Born to Run said:

I would be cool if pro lifers switched thier efforts to reducing the need and amount of abortions. But in my life they have done zero to reduce demand. In fact many increase demand by insisting gays not adopt or that races shouldn't mix. Harder to adopt out = more abortions.
More rape - more abortions.

Not a shot at Ana at all but ...

I've argued multiple times that we should focus the discussion on the repeated abortions. I've cited MMWR statistics regarding ~16% of all abortions being performed as the 3+ abortion for that individual. About 6% are the fourth go round. That is simply unacceptable in a modern society. 

 

But the reality is that nobody really wants to move the needle.  It's all just political posturing. 

[WhatTheBuck 28574]

3 minutes ago, tantric superman said:

This is the primary and best argument.  But to me the most persuasive is whether you would want any of these pro-life assholes involved in any of your family decisions.  This roles back around to your argument.  This is a method of control, pure and simple.  And at it's most basic level a grotesque denial of liberty for women and those who they include in their personal decisions.

There’s also the fact that there’s nothing in the Bible that recognizes an unborn child as a human life.

[mchookem 15430]

28 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Maybe one day you will chime in and advocate your pro-life position on this board, using your powers of persuasion. Or maybe not.

The abortion debate has broke many brains. We've turned empowering female qualities around live giving on their head, defining female empowerment instead on the alternative.   

 

i mean i started out basically giving you kudos for at least being consistent but then you go and earn a rare 🖕 rep from me for the follow up because fuck you. 

Edited May 20, 2021 by mchookem

[Anastasis 23191]

Just now, mchookem said:

i mean i started out basically giving you kudos for at least being consistent but then you go and earn a rare 🖕 rep for the follow up because fuck you. 

It's all good mchookem. 

[Captainant 26861]

Gotta say, I wasn't expecting Annie's first unequivocal position in the history of surly to be a religious stance on a health issue.

[Anastasis 23191]

4 minutes ago, Captainant said:

Gotta say, I wasn't expecting Annie's first unequivocal position in the history of surly to be a religious stance on a health issue.

Go play with the blocks in the corner Ant. 

[Captainant 26861]

32 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

The abortion debate has broke many brains. We've turned empowering female qualities around live giving on their head, defining female empowerment instead on the alternative.   

Let's double click on this for a moment... You're basically saying that if a woman cannot or does not have children, they have no power, or at the very least are less than those who do.

Do you realize how fucking medieval that thinking is?

A woman who is raped by her uncle has to carry it to term, and if she doesn't, she's less empowered? Give me a fucking break. 

[tantric superman 4667]

9 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

There’s also the fact that there’s nothing in the Bible that recognizes an unborn child as a human life.

Given that the bible is a unreliable, non-credible piece of fiction, that's not a particularly relevant point.

[Anastasis 23191]

1 minute ago, Captainant said:

Let's double click on this for a moment... You're basically saying that if a woman cannot or does not have children, they have no power, or at the very least are less than those who do.

Do you realize how fucking medieval that thinking is?

A woman who is raped by her uncle has to carry it to term, and if she doesn't, she's less empowered? Give me a fucking break. 

Speaking of broke brains. No one is saying that. 

[bonnieblue 542]

If all men were forced to get vasectomies, abortions would drop overnight. Problem solved.