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UTPhil2006

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United Wholesale Mortgage CEO Mat Ishbia is offering a simple explanation for explosive allegations that his company has “corrupted” mortgage brokers in order to cheat “hundreds of thousands of borrowers out of billions of dollars” in fees and costs.

Ishbia claims the allegations — made public Tuesday by a company affiliated with a hedge fund that’s taken a short position in UWM, and which also form the basis of a consumer lawsuit against the nation’s largest mortgage lender — have been cooked up by UWM’s fiercest rival, Rocket Mortgage, and its founder, Dan Gilbert.

“That’s Rocket Mortgage and Dan Gilbert doing Rocket Mortgage and Dan Gilbert things,” Ishbia told reporters Thursday. “And that’s just what it’s been funded by.”

Rocket Mortgage and Hunterbrook Media, the newly-launched media company that published the scathing report on UWM’s alleged business practices, say Ishbia’s accusations are baseless.

One of Hunterbrook Media’s founders, Sam Koppelman, called Ishbia’s take “a baseless conspiracy theory” on X, the social media platform formerly known as Twitter.

“Neither Rocket nor Gilbert even agreed to provide us with comment,” Koppelman posted on X. “Ishbia, meanwhile, has yet to point to a single fact we got wrong in our reporting. Mat, up for an interview?”

A hedge fund that’s affiliated with Hunterbrook Media, Hunterbrook Capital, has taken a short position in UWM — a bet that the company’s share price will crash. It’s also long on Rocket Companies, meaning it’s bought shares it hopes will increase in value — perhaps fueling Ishbia’s suspicions.

(UWM had not responded to a request for comment on the basis of Ishbia’s allegations as of publication time Friday).

A spokesperson for Rocket Mortgage told Inman that Gilbert and Rocket have nothing to do with Hunterbrook Media.

“Dan Gilbert and Rocket Mortgage have no investment, other financial interests or relationship to Hunterbrook Media,” Rocket Mortgage spokesperson Aaron Emerson said in a statement to Inman. “The professional investigation speaks for itself and appears to be based on factual, public information uncovered by the journalists who conducted the investigation.”

The allegations detailed in Hunterbrook Media’s report are serious — and are the basis of a lawsuit seeking class-action status in a federal district court to represent UWM borrowers who were allegedly harmed.

In prohibiting mortgage brokers who send borrowers to UWM from sending loan applications to rivals Rocket Mortgage or Fairway Independent Mortgage, the lawsuit alleges that UWM has caused a growing number of mortgage brokers to “artificially steer loans to UWM.”

In the process, UWM has violated the Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act (RICO) and the Real Estate Settlement Procedures Act (RESPA), the lawsuit alleges.

 
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The entire basis of this lawsuit is utter nonsense.  UWM says not us if you want to be with Rocket or Fairway.  Rocket is a bunch of shitheads that treat my client like their client and would just as soon slice my throat as help me out in any way.  And yet still- with all this awful steering screwing customers out of Billions or trillions or whatever nonsense they claim I have 87 different lenders I can take a loan to, my typical customer pays zero points, gets a rate 3/8 of a point less than national average, and the wholesale channel- even with bullshit TPO fees that have zero basis in fact or reality that get charged to people in that channel come in $9800 less, on average, than retail.  

Again, I don't even particularly like UWM, but they are the consumers best friend in the industry with absurdly fast close times, they solved the appraisal problem that plagued so many of us during covid, and all sorts of other stuff, all at a price consistently less than retail.  Gilbert can fuck off and I hope whatever shit bag lawyer filing this class action suit gets fake cancer and fake dies and needs a wreath fund.

3 hours ago, UTPhil2006 said:

Years long, very expensive Eskimo brothers fight 

But yeah- this is also an amusing aspect of the whole thing.  Helen of Troy wasn't responsible for stirring up this much shit. 

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1 hour ago, Mother mopar said:
14 hours ago, Neonmoon said:
Those 3 rate cuts trending towards no rate cuts this year. 

This shit is not helping me with my effort to move. Here's to 2025 cuts!

Buy now when you can get a deal. Get a free 1/0 buy down. Ask the sellers for a 2/1 buy down. Refinance later. Boom. 

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6 hours ago, Mother mopar said:
15 hours ago, Wulaw Horn said:
Buy now when you can get a deal. Get a free 1/0 buy down. Ask the sellers for a 2/1 buy down. Refinance later. Boom. 

For sure, except I'm building, not buying.

Ah. Missed that part. Carry on. 

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Inflation come in super hot today?  
I had 2 deals not locked ( not mine but my mentees) because we were waiting on her cup points so I assume today we will lose about 50 in the mbs market. 
rise and shine originators and people looking to buy a home- it’s time for your daily kick to the junk! 

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16 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

Inflation come in super hot today?  
I had 2 deals not locked ( not mine but my mentees) because we were waiting on her cup points so I assume today we will lose about 50 in the mbs market. 
rise and shine originators and people looking to buy a home- it’s time for your daily kick to the junk! 

Yep. Will open at 4.50+ more than likely 

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Last year through April I’d closed 10 des. This year through April I will be at 40. There’s absolutely nothing helpful about what’s happening though, other than people are being jettisoned out of the market as far as originators go. 
Hope to hold onto- if you can make it through this (and it will turn at some time) it’s going to be fucking glorious on the other side. 

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Also, @Wulaw Horn, bright side is those 10 deals you locked won’t be calling you and saying “look Gabe, I like you and all but I know the market improved and this other guy is beating you by .25%-I’ve got to do what’s best for my family.”

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On 4/8/2024 at 12:06 AM, TreatyOak said:

As someone who thought I worked insane hours in advertising in NY, her job has been fairly astounding to us. She was a computer engineering major at Duke and interned at Morgan Stanley in NY two summers in school. Since graduation, she has been there full-time. The hours are like nothing we’ve ever seen. She will stay at her job (with a promotion in Aug) and has already accepted a job at another private equity firm & start in Aug of 2025. I have no understanding how the industry works as it seems to have its own unique structure, but perhaps all finance is like that. She has worked on some pretty cool deals, as well. I would encourage it, since your son can bank a lot of money and then be very valuable to so many different companies. 

yeah I think the law equivalent is about 10% less in hours but a whole lot less in pay. I worked 100 hours per week rarely but it happened. 65-70 was pretty standard - a lot of 12 hour days and a few hours to organize, think, catch up on the weekend. not great but manageable when you're young and no kids. but bump that up to 75-80 hours and more often at 100 hours per week and that will burn. but the money and the skills for sure.  good luck to her that's awesome.  world will be her oyster for sure.

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There’s a lot of people w expertise in this thread and I’ve learned a lot. From my untrained perspective, it seems the most high-end properties are relatively unaffected by the downturn in sales prices. All the reductions are really hitting the mid-level inventory. Can someone corroborate this or tell me if this is wrong?

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18 hours ago, LCHorn said:

Also, @Wulaw Horn, bright side is those 10 deals you locked won’t be calling you and saying “look Gabe, I like you and all but I know the market improved and this other guy is beating you by .25%-I’ve got to do what’s best for my family.”

For sure. Had 2 that weren’t locked and just too exposed. 
the bad news is I was going to roll my entire October pipeline (5 loans but still) into a refinance  after the 6 payments had been made. This 1/4 point loss doesn’t help that. Not all the doors I’ve been knocking on. 
It’s not really about the lousy day it’s about putting a nail in the idea of a Refiance boom this summer/fall. Looking like winter at earliest. 
that means a bigger boom later with less originators around to share it, the philosophical side of me says, but most of me is like fuck that shit- let’s do this now. 

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9 hours ago, TreatyOak said:

There’s a lot of people w expertise in this thread and I’ve learned a lot. From my untrained perspective, it seems the most high-end properties are relatively unaffected by the downturn in sales prices. All the reductions are really hitting the mid-level inventory. Can someone corroborate this or tell me if this is wrong?

Work with a couple agents at the 1.5-2M price point occasionally. 50+ percent of their deals are cash. Anecdotal, but yeah/ less rate sensitive the higher you get. 

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, TreatyOak said:

There’s a lot of people w expertise in this thread and I’ve learned a lot. From my untrained perspective, it seems the most high-end properties are relatively unaffected by the downturn in sales prices. All the reductions are really hitting the mid-level inventory. Can someone corroborate this or tell me if this is wrong?

Definitely location sensitive, but the lower level buyers are getting hamstrung by rates and other outside forces, whereas higher level buyers and homes, while there are fewer of them, are generally less concerned about rate and/or qualification 

Edited by UTPhil2006
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29 minutes ago, UTPhil2006 said:

Definitely location sensitive, but the lower level buyers are getting hamstrung by rates and other outside forces, whereas higher level buyers and homes, while there are fewer of them, are generally less concerned about rate and/or qualification 

Also when they sell they have appreciation from their purchase and plenty for downpayment, obviously. 

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10 hours ago, TreatyOak said:

There’s a lot of people w expertise in this thread and I’ve learned a lot. From my untrained perspective, it seems the most high-end properties are relatively unaffected by the downturn in sales prices. All the reductions are really hitting the mid-level inventory. Can someone corroborate this or tell me if this is wrong?

What’s high end?  I definitely think the $1m-$1.5m market in Austin is struggling.  It’s better at $2m plus because they are more rare immune. 
 

Most of the mid-level inventory I see in Austin is moving as long as the seller isn’t greedy.  

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Core PPI came in higher. That means CPE is possibly coming in higher later this month. 

Rate cuts ain't happening this summer and this year's outlook ain't so great either. 

I would bet higher for much longer than most people expect or want

image.png.9689c5737f392b7f34381d6ba5da02d0.png

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59 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

Core PPI came in higher. That means CPE is possibly coming in higher later this month. 

Rate cuts ain't happening this summer and this year's outlook ain't so great either. 

I would bet higher for much longer than most people expect or want

image.png.9689c5737f392b7f34381d6ba5da02d0.png

This is going to be so funny when we get a 50 basis hike in July.  I'm here for it baby.  I'm tired of waiting expectantly- just lean into the suck.  The ride will be that much more glorious on the way back down.  Yeeeee haaaaaw.  

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26 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

This is going to be so funny when we get a 50 basis hike in July.  I'm here for it baby.  I'm tired of waiting expectantly- just lean into the suck.  The ride will be that much more glorious on the way back down.  Yeeeee haaaaaw.  

The reverse jinx isn’t working 

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Just now, UTPhil2006 said:

The reverse jinx isn’t working 

I"m not actually going for the reverse jinx.  I'm just trying to condition myself to this mindset and not worry about rate at all making my life easier b/c the hope is killing me.  Kill all hope and just deal with the suck and figure it will put more people out of business, get more market share and create a bigger refinance boom and more robust market when things finally break loose.  Have to embrace environment instead of pining for a different one. Trying to find reason for optimism or a good step forward. 

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Person calls me Tuesday late asking to be pre approved fast as dream house has multiple offers. Etc. I drop everything and get it done within an hour. They got the house. CPI hits. Now they say rates are too high and went shopping and found an online lender willing to give them an 1/8 better. The aristocrats.
 

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10 hours ago, Neonmoon said:

Person calls me Tuesday late asking to be pre approved fast as dream house has multiple offers. Etc. I drop everything and get it done within an hour. They got the house. CPI hits. Now they say rates are too high and went shopping and found an online lender willing to give them an 1/8 better. The aristocrats.
 

They’ll be back when whomever that was can’t get them approved 

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13 hours ago, Neonmoon said:

Person calls me Tuesday late asking to be pre approved fast as dream house has multiple offers. Etc. I drop everything and get it done within an hour. They got the house. CPI hits. Now they say rates are too high and went shopping and found an online lender willing to give them an 1/8 better. The aristocrats.
 

I don't want purport that I'm some master salesmen but I've had a lot of training and trained up a team of my own and I'd like to think they were pretty good at executing my vision. 

A sales coach will rebut that pricing with "sell them service".  I have tried all kinds of different scripting and I bet it works about 10% of the time, and we have basically built our entire business on supporting a service model over pricing.  I've even table-set by saying "this should be very competitive pricing but if you find something better let's chat on it.", in the hopes of getting a chance to match.  I'm sure you did that, too, because the borrower told you about it and didn't ghost you. 

CSB: I lost a deal two years ago that still stings--jumbo, I connected well with the borrower, he's a new dad (same as me at the time), sent him a Berenstein bears book after our initial phone call, etc.  He's talking to me and the highest production team in Austin (his agent referred both of us) and I loved competing against them because I respected them (they didn't make promises they couldn't keep). 

Anyway, our pricing is very similar and they cut him a deal that I could match but their LO got their first, and he gave them a verbal commitment.  I didn't have any more margin left to give up and couldn't do much but sell him on service after that loan closed, which didn't work work (probably doesn't help that by that point I usually feel like I'm begging). 

Fast forward a few months and our bank is appearing insolvent, my partner and I are looking for a place to land and we've got two options under consideration--a bank that's been purchased by some of our former peers and promises no LLPA's, at least on investment properties (which at the time, a lot of our investors were California engineers, southeast Asian or Asian, and ruthless shoppers, so it's be cheapest or lose the business) and the Austin IMB that we lost that jumbo deal to. 

We're interviewing/being interviewed by the bank president/owner and I brought up that loan (which was originated by his most accomplished LO on his team) and he said "Yup, I'll tell you a secret about her--she's very transactional.", i.e., she understood that bottom-line, if you find yourself competing on price don't fuck around, get to the LOWEST you can stomach right off the bat.  Win it or lose it and move on.  I can get way too precious about trying to maximize profit and it's a bad strategy in that particular contest. 

Back to you, I'm sure doing this already but don't forget to sell him the refinance, but you're going to have to match the rate and maybe beat it. 

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3 hours ago, LCHorn said:

I don't want purport that I'm some master salesmen but I've had a lot of training and trained up a team of my own and I'd like to think they were pretty good at executing my vision. 

A sales coach will rebut that pricing with "sell them service".  I have tried all kinds of different scripting and I bet it works about 10% of the time, and we have basically built our entire business on supporting a service model over pricing.  I've even table-set by saying "this should be very competitive pricing but if you find something better let's chat on it.", in the hopes of getting a chance to match.  I'm sure you did that, too, because the borrower told you about it and didn't ghost you. 

CSB: I lost a deal two years ago that still stings--jumbo, I connected well with the borrower, he's a new dad (same as me at the time), sent him a Berenstein bears book after our initial phone call, etc.  He's talking to me and the highest production team in Austin (his agent referred both of us) and I loved competing against them because I respected them (they didn't make promises they couldn't keep). 

Anyway, our pricing is very similar and they cut him a deal that I could match but their LO got their first, and he gave them a verbal commitment.  I didn't have any more margin left to give up and couldn't do much but sell him on service after that loan closed, which didn't work work (probably doesn't help that by that point I usually feel like I'm begging). 

Fast forward a few months and our bank is appearing insolvent, my partner and I are looking for a place to land and we've got two options under consideration--a bank that's been purchased by some of our former peers and promises no LLPA's, at least on investment properties (which at the time, a lot of our investors were California engineers, southeast Asian or Asian, and ruthless shoppers, so it's be cheapest or lose the business) and the Austin IMB that we lost that jumbo deal to. 

We're interviewing/being interviewed by the bank president/owner and I brought up that loan (which was originated by his most accomplished LO on his team) and he said "Yup, I'll tell you a secret about her--she's very transactional.", i.e., she understood that bottom-line, if you find yourself competing on price don't fuck around, get to the LOWEST you can stomach right off the bat.  Win it or lose it and move on.  I can get way too precious about trying to maximize profit and it's a bad strategy in that particular contest. 

Back to you, I'm sure doing this already but don't forget to sell him the refinance, but you're going to have to match the rate and maybe beat it. 

Always appreciate the feedback. But yeah, if I know I'm competing, I drop my shorts all the way down. It's the best strategy. I've also found that when there's a huge change in pricing, people get sticker shock (very understandably). The shock usually equals looking around. It is what it is. As you know, when people are looking around, they either don't know what they're comparing or the sharks are offering fairytales to lure you in. Again, part of the business. Just frustrating when good service gets discarded like a prom dress. 

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2 hours ago, Neonmoon said:

Always appreciate the feedback. But yeah, if I know I'm competing, I drop my shorts all the way down. It's the best strategy. I've also found that when there's a huge change in pricing, people get sticker shock (very understandably). The shock usually equals looking around. It is what it is. As you know, when people are looking around, they either don't know what they're comparing or the sharks are offering fairytales to lure you in. Again, part of the business. Just frustrating when good service gets discarded like a prom dress. 

As an aside, was I the only one in the world who didn't have sex on prom night? I got drunk with a bunch of dudes in like a Fairfield Inn. ugh. That's probably why my interest rate sucks.

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On 4/11/2024 at 7:47 PM, Neonmoon said:

Person calls me Tuesday late asking to be pre approved fast as dream house has multiple offers. Etc. I drop everything and get it done within an hour. They got the house. CPI hits. Now they say rates are too high and went shopping and found an online lender willing to give them an 1/8 better. The aristocrats.
 

Some people suck. 1/8 of a point is a lousy jump off point man. I don’t blame anyone over 1/4. What sucks is they probably shopped your deal over to them and told them beat by 1/8 and we are good. Which/ cool- of you know you are going the lowest route go the lowest route and get with them from the word go, don’t go get everything sorted with you and get white glove service and then fuck you in the ass over a couple bucks. I mean, I’m sure there’s people on here that will consider what they did to be perfectly right and justifiable, but it’s a really shitty way to live and for your sake I hope they get fake cancer and die. 

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