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30 For 30 On Michael Jordan: The Last Dance


Vic Mackey

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Wayne Gretzky is so far and away the greatest hockey player ever, that if you took away every goal he ever scored he would *still* be the all time NHL points leader. Gretzky is the GOAT of GOAT's. There's an argument to be made for more than one person as the GOAT in any sport I can think of except for hockey. 

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1 hour ago, Not a cat said:

My son, who is in a constant argument with me about LBJ being the goat, pointed me to some YouTube commentary that basically said the changing of the defensive rules in the early 2000s would make Jordan less effective today.  No more isolation moves that were Jordan's bread and butter and since his career 3 pt % is low compared to the players of today he'd have trouble scoring as much.

My response was do you think for a second if 3s were the most important part of the game he wouldn't spend all summer practicing from long range until he was hitting 50%?  I mean he's watched all 8 episodes with me, has he just not been paying attention?  

Kids are stoopid. You know that right ?  If you didn't see Jordan play you can't even begin to know how friggin great he was.

I watched him his whole college, and pro career, and I go how the fuck did he do that watching the clips in the documentary.

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Guest Lobo

Yeah, there are players who were statistically better than Jordan.  Who won more rings than Jordan.  Who did better with a less great supporting cast than Jordan.  But Jordan is still the best ever to most of us, but we can at least acknowledge he has close competition on the Mount Rushmore of NBA hoops.  

But Gretzky was statistically the best.  In terms of eyeball test, he was the best.  In terms of hardware, he was the best.  He was just so far and away, that nobody even bothers to debate it.  If they made that documentary, nobody would even show up for the opposing argument interviews.  

The only downside of his career is China goes and produces the greatest opening ceremonies of an Olympics probably ever.  Two years later, Canada gets to host the Winter Games and feature her favorite son---Wayne Gretzky.  And what do they do to show up China...they have Wayne stand up in the bed of a Chevy pickup truck and ride through Vancouver.  It was then I had my doubts he was the God we made him out to be growing up on the ice of Chicago.  

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Kids are stoopid. You know that right ?  If you didn't see Jordan play you can't even begin to know how friggin great he was.
I watched him his whole college, and pro career, and I go how the fuck did he do that watching the clips in the documentary.

I won’t lie.. every time I see lebron take over I’m reminded why he’s 1B in the GOAT category. He’s a physical specimen to which we’ve never seen and at 35 he’s having one of his best seasons ever...and he’s never hurt.


This documentary reminds me that Jordan is 1A even tho I was 6 when he started the first 3 peat and I remember how the wolves finally beat Jordan once. So now that that’s settled... I think lebrons 10 straight finals appearances is one of the greatest sports streaks ever. Don’t care if the east was watered or he formed a super team
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9 minutes ago, MNLonghornFUKM said:


I won’t lie.. every time I see lebron take over I’m reminded why he’s 1B in the GOAT category. He’s a physical specimen to which we’ve never seen and at 35 he’s having one of his best seasons ever...and he’s never hurt.


This documentary reminds me that Jordan is 1A even tho I was 6 when he started the first 3 peat and I remember how the wolves finally beat Jordan once. So now that that’s settled... I think lebrons 10 straight finals appearances is one of the greatest sports streaks ever. Don’t care if the east was watered or he formed a super team

8. But I don't disagree. Esp capping it off with the 2018 run, which was more of a one-man show than the oft-sited 2007 run.

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When you look at the Eastern Conference over the time of LeBron's going to 8 straight ECF, it becomes less impressive.  From 2011 on,  LeBron's team was clearly the best team in the Eastern Conference and it's not even close.  There is a zero percent chance he goes to 8 straight in the Western Conference.  That's not to say he isn't a great player, because he is.  The Eastern Conference was pretty much trash during his 8 straight Finals appearances. 

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43 minutes ago, Chet Steadman said:

This documentary is incredible.  I have laughed out loud multiple times.  So many great characters.  MJ watching Gary Payton‘s commentary on the ‘96 Finals was aces.  

Btw, we’re eight episodes in and we have not heard John Tesh’s music even once.

Travesty.  

Here you go, Chet. Not surprising that ESPN (an ABC company) would turn down the opportunity to use something so widely associated with NBC. Pretty amazing story on how John Tesh came up with the idea for Roundball Rock and sang it over the phone to record it on his answering machine.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roundball_Rock

(1:17 for the actual theme)

 

 

Edited by UDontKnow
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LeBron still can't shoot FTs, particularly in crunch time. That alone eliminates him from any claim to being MJ's equal. 

edited to add: a lot of people who never watched Shaq play and/or are stupid like to say that he was just huge and had no skill, yet nobody ever seems to penalize LeBron the same way. He's always been a great passer, even in HS, but without being the *literal* freakiest athlete who has ever lived then he would be nowhere near any conversation about being the GOAT. MJ is insanely more skilled than LeBron, as are plenty of other all time greats. Don't know why he gets a pass but Shaq doesn't. 

doible edit: anybody think Michael Jordan growing up in today's era shoots 34% for his career from deep? 73% from the line? Markedly worse from the line in crunch time? Because those are LeBron's numbers. The idea that he's MJ's equal is ridiculous. 

Edited by Goo Punch
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Also, I like how LeBron insisted that Miami was D Wade's team, made a big deal about how D Wade was Peanut Butter while LeBron himself was just the jelly, and then he turns around and calmly, and without a trace of irony, says, "Yeah and then I hit that shot and cemented myself as the greatest of all time."

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MJ was a killer. LeBron is a kid in the body of a mythical creature. They are not the same. 

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Game 7 of the NBA Finals and your team is down by 8 points with 5 minutes to go. Rank in order the following players, from who you'd most want to be your team's best player/leader, to who you'd least want to be you teams best player/leader in this situation:

MJ, Magic, Larry Bird, Kobe, LeBron

That also happens to be my order. LeBron's ability to create for others is enticing, but Kobe can actually shoot and also has a killer mentality, so I've put him ahead of LeBron. I don't see an argument for either of those two to be ahead of any of my top 3 in that situation. 

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I remember other players fearing MJ.  Not the other greats but run of the mill players.  

I remember reading stories from then saying don't piss him off.

On B. Simmons podcast today he read his argument from his BoB book on why MJ is the greatest.

At the end he tells a story about the summer before he decides to play for the WiZards. 

He's at some charity or summer league thing and Paul Pierce is giving him shit.  You're too old.  It's our time now.  His coach Jim O'Brien sees what's happening and runs over and pulls Pierce away.  "Never talk to him". " "that's the one guy you don't fuck with". 

We need to defend this wall..

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7 hours ago, Goo Punch said:

LeBron still can't shoot FTs, particularly in crunch time. That alone eliminates him from any claim to being MJ's equal. 

edited to add: a lot of people who never watched Shaq play and/or are stupid like to say that he was just huge and had no skill, yet nobody ever seems to penalize LeBron the same way. He's always been a great passer, even in HS, but without being the *literal* freakiest athlete who has ever lived then he would be nowhere near any conversation about being the GOAT. MJ is insanely more skilled than LeBron, as are plenty of other all time greats. Don't know why he gets a pass but Shaq doesn't. 

doible edit: anybody think Michael Jordan growing up in today's era shoots 34% for his career from deep? 73% from the line? Markedly worse from the line in crunch time? Because those are LeBron's numbers. The idea that he's MJ's equal is ridiculous. 

Lebron has a better career shooting % than MJ,  even with his free throw woes....to say that Lebron isn't as skilled as other greats is laughable.

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1 minute ago, Pam Cummings said:

Lebron has a better career shooting % than MJ,  even with his free throw woes....to say that Lebron isn't as skilled as other greats is laughable.

a 6'8" physical monster who can jump four feet in the air has a good shooting percentage? get out! 

also, define "other greats". is he as skilled as MJ, Magic, Larry, Kobe, Hakeem, Zeke, etc? because I don't think he is. 

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8 minutes ago, Goo Punch said:

a 6'8" physical monster who can jump four feet in the air has a good shooting percentage? get out! 

also, define "other greats". is he as skilled as MJ, Magic, Larry, Kobe, Hakeem, Zeke, etc? because I don't think he is. 

You act like all the other guys on the floor aren't also gigantic physical monsters lol. Yeah theoretically they should all shoot great but they don't.

He is every bit as skilled as those other guys. You have Kobe ahead of him on your list but Kobe missed the playoffs in one of his prime years. That is a huge strike right there for an all time great. Especially considering the bad Cavs teams Lebron was slogging through the playoffs with during his first runs. And they were so terrible after he left, they were in the lottery for the next, what, 5 years? I mean who was his second best player on those teams, Antwan Jamison? Boobie?

 

Oh, and now that i think of it, Larry Bird might be as impressive of a player as i've ever seen. MJ, Lebron, Kareem, Bird, and Magic might be my true top 5. With me throwing Duncan in the mix when i feel like being a Spurs homer and trolling.

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You say, "he is every bit as skilled as those guys", and immediately follow it up with an entire paragraph about how Kobe missed the playoffs one time and how LeBron's teammates were no good. When were you planning on backing up the assertion that LeBron is as skilled as the likes of MJ, Magic, and Bird?

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You're asking me to refute a point you never made. You just said "he's not as skilled as those other guys". You had no data or method of backing up that point. So yeah, i don't know what you want me to say. The guy isn't a top 3 scorer and top 10 assist man without having skill.

 

And re-reading your post, nobody worth a shit thinks that Shaq wasn't HIGHLY talented. He was fat and lazy. There's a reason Kobe fucking hated him when they played together. If Shaq had the mentality of a Kobe or an MJ or Lebron he might be the best player ever. But he didn't keep himself in good shape and have the career longevity and success on the back end of a guy like Duncan. And now he wants to cry when people pretty much universally consider Duncan to be the better player.

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Just now, Goo Punch said:

You say, "he is every bit as skilled as those guys", and immediately follow it up with an entire paragraph about how Kobe missed the playoffs one time and how LeBron's teammates were no good. When were you planning on backing up the assertion that LeBron is as skilled as the likes of MJ, Magic, and Bird?

I guess I'm confused by what we're aiming for when proving "skill" -- because I think of LeBron as being highly skilled. Tight handle, elite passer, versatile defender and among the best shot selection in the game (I view attempts at the rim/getting to the line as something that should be celebrated; not a demerit). Is "skill" just shooting?

Had more difficulty finding shot charts than I thought: these are just from one season (but very good seasons for each player). I think the notion that Kobe is a better shooter is overstated if not flawed. LeBron is certainly a better shooter/scorer than Magic could ever claim to be. Maybe MJ ends up a great 3-pt shooter in today's era. I like his chances, but Kobe is oft-cited as someone who similarly worked tirelessly at his craft and it never really happened for him.

 

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grant_r_lebronshooting115211.jpg

 

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40 minutes ago, TommyGufano said:

I guess I'm confused by what we're aiming for when proving "skill" -- because I think of LeBron as being highly skilled.

And nobody said he isn't. The question is whether or not he is as skilled as the other greats at the top of the list, and the answer is a pretty clear "no" when it comes to Magic, Michael, and Larry. How many skills (if any) does LeBron have that are superior to all three of those players?

•His best skill is his passing (and he has a very high basketball IQ), but guess what? Magic and Larry are also two of the greatest passers ever (both better than LBJ imo), and both have higher basketball IQs.

•Jordan and Bird are far superior shooters, particularly from the line, and even more so during crunch time. Again, this is not a conversation about "is LeBron James talented", it's about where his basketball talent stacks up against the other all time greats. As a shooter, LeBron is nothing special-below average, depending on the shot. There isn't a spot on the court where he's a better shooter than these two. 

•Magic, MJ, and Bird all have better handle than LeBron. 

•LeBron is a good all around defender, but he is nowhere near MJ's level as a man defender. 

•Gonna make a whole nother bullet point to re-emphasize the fact that the guy cannot shoot FTs, and is in fact notorious for clanging dozens of horrid crunch time atte it's over the years. this cannot be overlooked

•Is LeBron even more talented than Steph Curry? I mean if they switched bodies then Steph would be the greatest player of all time and LeBron would be Russell Westbrook. 

so yeah. he's an all time great, but talent-wise he does not match up with the very best. 

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1 minute ago, Goo Punch said:

And nobody said he isn't. The question is whether or not he is as skilled as the other greats at the top of the list, and the answer is a pretty clear "no" when it comes to Magic, Michael, and Larry. How many skills (if any) does LeBron have that are superior to all three of those players?

•His best skill is his passing (and he has a very high basketball IQ), but guess what? Magic and Larry are also two of the greatest passers ever (both better than LBJ imo), and both have higher basketball IQs.

•Jordan and Bird are far superior shooters, particularly from the line, and even more so during crunch time. Again. this is not a conversation about "is LeBron James talented", it's about where his basketball talent stacks up against the other all time greats. As a shooter, LeBron nothing special-below average, depending on the shot. There isn't a spot on the court where he's a better shooter than these two. 

•Magic, MJ, and Bird all have better handle than LeBron. 

•LeBron is a good all around defender, but he is nowhere near MJ's level as a man defender. 

•Gonna make a whole nother bullet point to re-emphasize the fact that the guy cannot shoot FTs, and is in fact notorious for clanging dozens of horrid crunch time atte it's over the years. this cannot be overlooked

•Is LeBron even more talented than Steph Curry? I mean if they switched bodies then Steph would be the greatest player of all time and LeBron would be Russell Westbrook. 

so yeah. he's an all time great, but talent-wise he does not match up with the very best. 

 

I find it strange that you want to hand wave athleticism in the same thread you demand MJ is the GOAT (which he is). What a strange line of argument. If you put MJ in Jose Calderon's body is he even as good as Jose Calderon? That's obviously an important question that demands much thought.

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Last 70 years,  Ex-Jordan, there have been two seasons where a player was the scoring champ and won the NBA title. 

Jordan did it six times. 

In an era where you could flat out mug someone without a foul, and they did it all the time. 

All NBA first team defense 9 times. 

Funny to watch people twist themselves into knots trying to argue he wasn't the GOAT. Dude would average 40 a game in todays NBA without breaking a sweat. 

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Lebron scores a lot of his points(easy buckets at the rim) by using his huge body size and strength to drive through defenders, and often they yield and just get the fuck out of his way. Jordan didn't have that luxury. When it comes to pure scoring skill and the ability create his own shot and elude defenders, Jordan has no equal.  And that was in an era where a defender could hand check and mug the shit out of him. Jordan would have averaged 5+ more points in today's game. 

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4 minutes ago, immortal13 said:

Lebron scores a lot of his points(easy buckets at the rim) by using his huge body size and strength to drive through defenders, and often they yield and just get the fuck out of his way. Jordan didn't have that luxury. When it comes to pure scoring skill and the ability create his own shot and elude defenders, Jordan has no equal.  And that was in an era where a defender could hand check and mug the shit out of him. Jordan would have averaged 5+ more points in today's game. 

I think Jordan lubed himself up with WD-40 the way he squeezed thru defenses at the rim.

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I wanted to repost my last bullet point because I wanted to get other's opinions on this:

•Is LeBron even more talented than Steph Curry? I mean if they switched bodies then Steph would be the greatest player of all time and LeBron would be Russell Westbrook.

I think Steph is more talented than LeBron and it's not even close. So I obviously don't think that LBJ is anywhere near as talented basketball-wise as Magic, MJ, or Bird.

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I'm nowhere near the basketball guru as others on this thread and haven't seriously watched the NBA in years.  With that disclaimer out of the way, what little I've seen of his game I think LeBron is the most physically talented player ever, including curry and the Holy Trinity of Magic, MJ and Bird.  Honestly if someone was screwing around in a lab making basketball's Vitruvian man it would look like him. 

Obviously that doesn't mean I think he's necessarily better than the others (especially Jordan)  because those bastards would cut throats to win. 

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yes, physically speaking i seriously believe he is the greatest athlete to have ever lived. only in mythology does a creature exist who is 6'8", 250+ lbs of muscle, with sprinter speed and olympic-level leaping ability. seriously- what human *ever* can match LeBron as an athlete? I don't think anyone can.

that said, as far as basketball skills go, his vision/IQ/passing are his only elite skills that I see. As a shooter he's not even particularly good; ball handling he's good, but nowhere near elite; as a man defender he's fine but far from elite; he gets a lot of rebounds, but is he a particularly great rebounder? no, he isn't. and again, and I can't get over this, because it's completely inexcusable, the man can't shoot FTs, and is particularly bad when the heat is on. dude has been a professional since the 9th grade and he still can't shoot FTs. he's an amazing basketball player, and frankly to have the skill he does have with his size and strength is amazing; but when comparing his skill to the top 1% of players ever it's not particularly close.

 

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LeBron is 3-6 in The Finals and two of those (2013 & 2017) were gifts.  If the Eastern Conference wasn't complete trash from 2011-2019 then LeBron doesn't go to 8 straight Finals.  He basically had a bye during the playoff for 8 years.  Now, I will say that LeBron was basically a one man team for many of those years as I don't really think too much of Kryie or Love, so to drag some horrible teams to the Finals 8 straight years is pretty impressive.  Hell, LeBron could have taken last year's Lakers team to the Finals in the Eastern Conference 2011-2018. 

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2 hours ago, Hate said:

LeBron is 3-6 in The Finals and two of those (2013 & 2017) were gifts.  If the Eastern Conference wasn't complete trash from 2011-2019 then LeBron doesn't go to 8 straight Finals.  He basically had a bye during the playoff for 8 years.  Now, I will say that LeBron was basically a one man team for many of those years as I don't really think too much of Kryie or Love, so to drag some horrible teams to the Finals 8 straight years is pretty impressive.  Hell, LeBron could have taken last year's Lakers team to the Finals in the Eastern Conference 2011-2018. 

Agree with most of your post. But if no Kyrie, no championship for Cleveland over the NBA's greatest regular season team ever! 

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10 hours ago, immortal13 said:

Lebron scores a lot of his points(easy buckets at the rim) by using his huge body size and strength to drive through defenders, and often they yield and just get the fuck out of his way. Jordan didn't have that luxury. When it comes to pure scoring skill and the ability create his own shot and elude defenders, Jordan has no equal.  And that was in an era where a defender could hand check and mug the shit out of him. Jordan would have averaged 5+ more points in today's game. 

I watched a Lakers-Clippers game this year and Lebron would just run through defenders to get to the rim. Literally head down, pick up the dribble, and just run through defenders like a running back. Half the time he was getting bailed out by the ref. His play this year has been extremely hard to watch. 

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12 minutes ago, UDontKnow said:

Agree with most of your post. But if no Kyrie, no championship for Cleveland over the NBA's greatest regular season team ever! 

And that's fair.  Kyrie had a great run and is very talented.  He's just a weird dude. He will never be the best player on a team that wins a title.

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On 5/16/2020 at 2:03 AM, Goo Punch said:

LeBron still can't shoot FTs, particularly in crunch time. That alone eliminates him from any claim to being MJ's equal. 

edited to add: a lot of people who never watched Shaq play and/or are stupid like to say that he was just huge and had no skill, yet nobody ever seems to penalize LeBron the same way. He's always been a great passer, even in HS, but without being the *literal* freakiest athlete who has ever lived then he would be nowhere near any conversation about being the GOAT. MJ is insanely more skilled than LeBron, as are plenty of other all time greats. Don't know why he gets a pass but Shaq doesn't. 

doible edit: anybody think Michael Jordan growing up in today's era shoots 34% for his career from deep? 73% from the line? Markedly worse from the line in crunch time? Because those are LeBron's numbers. The idea that he's MJ's equal is ridiculous. 

When Jordan began adjusting his game to avoid taking a beating down the lane, he worked on and began taking more outside shots.  Bron has never been a consistent threat from the outside.  In fact, I'd think teams would rather he take outside shots.  

If I was a big man guarding Shaq, I'd plant my feen in front of the basket with my arms straight up in the air and Shaq would murder me in the paint while I got called for the foul.  Saw Bradley do exactly this--get his nose busted and get called for the foul.  Shaq wasn't going to finesse or dazzle anybody with fancy footwork--usually he was going to go over or through the defender.  He is really quick with a big, wide body.  He could keep a defender on his hip, spin and dunk and there's zippo the defender could do about it except hope for a 3 second violation that absolutely won't get called.  Shaq was called for offensive fouls (fouled out) both his first and last years in the league.  His game didn't adjust that much in between.

  

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2 minutes ago, Mdhorn said:

If I was a big man guarding Shaq, I'd plant my feen in front of the basket with my arms straight up in the air and Shaq would murder me in the paint while I got called for the foul.  Saw Bradley do exactly this--get his nose busted and get called for the foul.  Shaq wasn't going to finesse or dazzle anybody with fancy footwork.

  

Yes he was. Shaq had great footwork. You must not remember him in his prime. Also, nobody in the history of the NBA got legitimately fouled more often with no call than Shaq, so I'm not going to cry for any defenders who just tried to get run over and hoped for a foul call. 

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The game has changes so much through the years.  Any comparisons are impossible.  Thinking that guys used to play the game in high top canvas chucks tells me it wasn't an arial game.  And even still, it would be impossible to play in those things.  Interesting to see comparisons, especially in regards to height: https://runrepeat.com/height-evolution-in-the-nba

 

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8 minutes ago, Goo Punch said:

Yes he was. Shaq had great footwork. You must not remember him in his prime. Also, nobody in the history of the NBA got legitimately fouled more often with no call than Shaq, so I'm not going to cry for any defenders who just tried to get run over and hoped for a foul call. 

I'm not crying for them--he's a physical anomaly.  Just saying he's wasn't going to Duncan, Olajuwon or Robinson his way around defenders.  He beat the f'k out of Hakeem down low and it had nothing to do with footwork.  

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On 5/16/2020 at 8:27 AM, Pam Cummings said:

You act like all the other guys on the floor aren't also gigantic physical monsters lol. Yeah theoretically they should all shoot great but they don't.

He is every bit as skilled as those other guys. You have Kobe ahead of him on your list but Kobe missed the playoffs in one of his prime years. That is a huge strike right there for an all time great. Especially considering the bad Cavs teams Lebron was slogging through the playoffs with during his first runs. And they were so terrible after he left, they were in the lottery for the next, what, 5 years? I mean who was his second best player on those teams, Antwan Jamison? Boobie?

 

Oh, and now that i think of it, Larry Bird might be as impressive of a player as i've ever seen. MJ, Lebron, Kareem, Bird, and Magic might be my true top 5. With me throwing Duncan in the mix when i feel like being a Spurs homer and trolling.

Lebron was so incredibly physical that he allowed a shot-kneed Matrix and 37 yr old Jason Kidd to completely get him out of his game in an NBA Finals where he looked like a foolish, timid child.   He’ll always be a freakishly athletic, foolish, timid child to me.  

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45 minutes ago, Trey3216 said:

Lebron was so incredibly physical that he allowed a shot-kneed Matrix and 37 yr old Jason Kidd to completely get him out of his game in an NBA Finals where he looked like a foolish, timid child.   He’ll always be a freakishly athletic, foolish, timid child to me.  

Don’t forget Deshawn Stevenson.  He was a crazy fucker, but he could play some D and get in somebody’s head.

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6 hours ago, Mdhorn said:

I'm not crying for them--he's a physical anomaly.  Just saying he's wasn't going to Duncan, Olajuwon or Robinson his way around defenders.  He beat the f'k out of Hakeem down low and it had nothing to do with footwork.  

Wut? 

Shaq: "If I can't beat you, I'll be a man and say I can't beat you. I'm not going to [cry about it]. . . . I'm the first guy to say that somebody is better than me. I was the first guy to say Hakeem Olajuwon beat me in the [1995] NBA finals. He killed me. He dominated me. I didn't go, 'Oh, he's traveling. They had experience. Wah-wah-wah.' I'm a man. Hakeem Olajuwon dusted my butt. These guys now are crying, 'Three seconds!' It's just funny to me.""

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For me MJ got better as each round of the playoffs went. Go look up his Finals averages and you'll see how when it was time to raise his game he went to a level no one else could match. Lebrun has faded in the Finals MULTIPLE times. 

 

And GTFO with Shaq beat the fuck out of Hakeem? Hahahaha were you like 5 during the 95 Finals when Hakeem beat the fuck out of Shaq? 

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YEAR Opponent G MPG FG% 3P% FT% ORB DRB RPG APG SPG BPG TO PF PPG
1990-91 Lakers 5 44.0 .558 .500 .848 1.6 5.0 6.6 11.4 2.8 1.40 3.6 3.6 31.2
 1991-92 Trail Blazers 6 42.3 .526 .429 .891 1.0 3.8 4.8 6.5 1.7 0.33 2.0 3.5 35.8
 1992-93 Suns 6 45.7 .508 .400 .694 2.5 6.0 8.5 6.3 1.7 0.67 2.7 3.3 41.0
 1995-96 Supersonics 6 42.0 .415 .316 .836 1.7 3.7 5.3 4.2 1.7 0.17 3.0 2.8 27.3
 1996-97 Jazz 6 42.7 .456 .320 .764 1.5 5.5 7.0 6.0 1.2 0.83 2.2 2.3 32.3
 1997-98 Jazz 6 41.7 .427 .308 .814 1.5 2.5 4.0 2.3 1.8 0.67 1.7 2.2 33.5
Finals   35 43.0 .481 .368 .806 1.8 4.4 6.0 6.0 1.8 0.66 2.4 2.9 33.6
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5 hours ago, Trey3216 said:

Lebron was so incredibly physical that he allowed a shot-kneed Matrix and 37 yr old Jason Kidd to completely get him out of his game in an NBA Finals where he looked like a foolish, timid child.   He’ll always be a freakishly athletic, foolish, timid child to me.  

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On 5/15/2020 at 9:47 PM, MNLonghornFUKM said:


I won’t lie.. every time I see lebron take over I’m reminded why he’s 1B in the GOAT category. He’s a physical specimen to which we’ve never seen and at 35 he’s having one of his best seasons ever...and he’s never hurt.


This documentary reminds me that Jordan is 1A even tho I was 6 when he started the first 3 peat and I remember how the wolves finally beat Jordan once. So now that that’s settled... I think lebrons 10 straight finals appearances is one of the greatest sports streaks ever. Don’t care if the east was watered or he formed a super team

I think people underestimate what Jordan's athleticism would look like today. He played at 6'6", ~215-220lbs. LeBron is 6'8", ~240-250. The game has moved to sub-200lb forwards and 220lb 7-footers. Jordan would be a freight train just like LeBron in today's game.

 

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1 hour ago, demos said:


Lol. Talk about hilariously bad takes.

Summary of Victories
 
Games Won in Regular Season in Playoffs
Hakeem Olajuwon
11
6
5
Shaquille O'Neal
17
14
3

Stats in Games Between Them

Averages
Player
Points Rebounds Assists Steals Blocks
Hakeem Olajuwon 19.7 9.2 2.9 1.5 2.1
Shaquille O'Neal 24.0 12.1 4.0 0.8 2.2
Game Highs
Player
Points Rebounds Assists Steals Blocks
Hakeem Olajuwon 35 15 9 5 6
Shaquille O'Neal 37 20 9 2 6
Games with better stats than the other player...
Player
Points Rebounds Assists Steals Blocks
Hakeem Olajuwon 11 games 7 games 10 games 13 games 13 games
Shaquille O'Neal 16 games  20 games 14 games 5 games 11 games
Both had same stat 1 game 1 game 4 games 10 games 4 games
 

Head To Head Games Played: One by One

 
 
- 1992-93 Season - 
Game
 
Player
Pts TRb Ast Stl Blk TO PF Min
FG
%
3PT
%
FT
%
 
Nov. 25, 1992
1. Rockets 94   Hakeem Olajuwon 22 13 3 1 5 5 3 41 9-22 .409 0-0 - 4-8 .500
  Magic 107   Shaquille O'Neal 12 13 2 1 3 2 3 42 6-12 .500 0-0 - 0-0 -
 
Mar. 16, 1993
2. Rockets 94   Hakeem Olajuwon 20 15 9 2 4 5 5 46 8-19 .421 0-0 - 4-5 .800
  Magic 93   Shaquille O'Neal 16 17 1 2 2 5 4 46 5-11 .455 0-0 - 6-9 .667
 
- 1993-94 Season - 
Game
 
Player
Pts TRb Ast Stl Blk TO PF Min
FG
%
3PT
%
FT
%
 
Jan. 10, 1994
3. Rockets 100   Hakeem Olajuwon 26 11 5 3 5 3 3 38 9-20 .450 1-1 1.000 7-8 .875
  Magic 115   Shaquille O'Neal 28 7 4 1 1 1 5 39 13-19 .684 0-0 - 2-5 .400
 
Mar. 01, 1994
4. Rockets 97   Hakeem Olajuwon 26 7 5 1 6 2 3 37 12-20 .600 0-0 - 2-4 .500
  Magic 85   Shaquille O'Neal 19 13 2 1 2 1 2 44 8-19 .421 0-0 - 3-12 .250
 
- 1994-95 Season - 
Game
 
Player
Pts TRb Ast Stl Blk TO PF Min
FG
%
3PT
%
FT
%
 
Nov. 23, 1994
5. Rockets 94   Hakeem Olajuwon 27 10 3 2 3 3 4 37 10-22 .455 0-0 - 7-7 1.000
  Magic 117   Shaquille O'Neal 30 7 2 0 0 3 5 29 13-19 .684 0-0 - 4-4 1.000
 
Mar. 02, 1995
6. Rockets 96   Hakeem Olajuwon 22 9 6 5 2 5 3 44 9-23 .391 0-0 - 4-5 .800
  Magic 107   Shaquille O'Neal 19 20 6 2 2 4 5 42 9-17 .529 0-0 - 1-3 .333
 
- 1995 Playoffs - NBA Finals - 
Game
 
Player
Pts TRb Ast Stl Blk TO PF Min
FG
%
3PT
%
FT
%
 
Jun. 07, 1995
7. Rockets 120   Hakeem Olajuwon 31 6 7 2 4 3 5 48 13-26 .500 0-0 - 5-7 .714
OT Magic 118   Shaquille O'Neal 26 16 9 0 3 7 5 44 10-16 .625 0-0 - 6-9 .667
 
Jun. 09, 1995
8. Rockets 117   Hakeem Olajuwon 34 11 2 1 4 3 5 42 14-30 .467 0-0 - 6-9 .667
  Magic 106   Shaquille O'Neal 33 12 7 0 0 4 5 45 12-22 .545 0-0 - 9-14 .643
 
Jun. 11, 1995
9. Rockets 106   Hakeem Olajuwon 31 14 7 2 0 1 4 45 14-30 .467 0-0 - 3-5 .600
  Magic 103   Shaquille O'Neal 28 10 6 1 3 4 3 45 11-17 .647 0-0 - 6-11 .545
 
Jun. 14, 1995
10. Rockets 113   Hakeem Olajuwon 35 15 6 3 0 4 4 44 15-30 .500 1-1 1.000 4-5 .800
  Magic 101   Shaquille O'Neal 25 12 3 0 4 6 5 46 11-19 .579 0-0 - 3-8 .375
 
- 1995-96 Season - 
Game
 
Player
Pts TRb Ast Stl Blk TO PF Min
FG
%
3PT
%
FT
%
 
Dec. 25, 1995
11. Rockets 90   Hakeem Olajuwon 30 12 6 0 1 1 4 42 12-26 .462 0-0 - 6-6 1.000
  Magic 92   Shaquille O'Neal 22 18 5 0 1 4 5 38 10-15 .667 0-0 - 2-6 .333
 
Jan. 21, 1996
12. Rockets 96   Hakeem Olajuwon 30 11 2 5 2 1 3 45 13-28 .464 0-0 - 4-6 .667
  Magic 97   Shaquille O'Neal 29 16 3 1 1 6 4 42 13-24 .542 0-0 - 3-7 .429
 
- 1996-97 Season - 
Game
 
Player
Pts TRb Ast Stl Blk TO PF Min
FG
%
3PT
%
FT
%
 
Nov. 12, 1996
13. Rockets 115   Hakeem Olajuwon 31 7 2 1 4 1 4 32 12-22 .545 0-0 - 7-9 .778
2OT Lakers 126   Shaquille O'Neal 34 15 2 1 2 5 6 42 15-24 .625 0-0 - 4-8 .500
 
- 1997-98 Season - 
Game
 
Player
Pts TRb Ast Stl Blk TO PF Min
FG
%
3PT
%
FT
%
 
Nov. 14, 1997
14. Rockets 103   Hakeem Olajuwon 4 8 3 0 2 1 5 32 2-11 .182 0-0 - 0-0 -
2OT Lakers 113   Shaquille O'Neal 24 13 8 2 3 3 3 50 8-18 .444 0-0 - 8-13 .615
 
Feb. 15, 1998
15. Rockets 90   Hakeem Olajuwon 13 11 4 0 4 1 4 38 5-14 .357 0-0 - 3-3 1.000
  Lakers 88   Shaquille O'Neal 18 13 1 0 1 5 3 37 7-14 .500 0-0 - 4-7 .571
 
- 1998-99 Season - 
Game
 
Player
Pts TRb Ast Stl Blk TO PF Min
FG
%
3PT
%
FT
%
 
Feb. 05, 1999
16. Rockets 91   Hakeem Olajuwon 11 7 0 0 0 3 6 34 5-13 .385 0-0 - 1-4 .250
  Lakers 99   Shaquille O'Neal 30 14 6 2 0 6 2 41 13-21 .619 0-0 - 4-7 .571
 
Feb. 28, 1999
17. Rockets 90   Hakeem Olajuwon 22 8 2 0 0 2 6 29 11-17 .647 0-0 - 0-2 .000
  Lakers 106   Shaquille O'Neal 22 7 2 1 1 4 1 34 7-10 .700 0-0 - 8-14 .571
 
Apr. 26, 1999
18. Rockets 102   Hakeem Olajuwon 14 8 2 2 2 2 1 34 4-10 .400 0-0 - 6-7 .857
  Lakers 80   Shaquille O'Neal 19 12 4 1 1 6 2 36 9-14 .643 0-0 - 1-2 .500
 
- 1999 Playoffs - Western Conference First Round - 
Game
 
Player
Pts TRb Ast Stl Blk TO PF Min
FG
%
3PT
%
FT
%
 
May. 09, 1999
19. Rockets 100   Hakeem Olajuwon 22 8 0 2 1 1 5 31 10-13 .769 0-0 - 2-3 .667
  Lakers 101   Shaquille O'Neal 27 11 4 2 4 4 4 41 11-23 .478 0-0 - 5-14 .357
 
May. 11, 1999
20. Rockets 98   Hakeem Olajuwon 8 5 1 1 0 2 4 25 3-10 .300 0-0 - 2-2 1.000
  Lakers 110   Shaquille O'Neal 28 9 7 0 5 2 4 33 12-21 .571 0-0 - 4-9 .444
 
May. 13, 1999
21. Rockets 102   Hakeem Olajuwon 5 6 0 1 1 2 5 28 2-12 .167 0-0 - 1-1 1.000
  Lakers 88   Shaquille O'Neal 26 10 2 1 4 1 2 42 9-22 .409 0-0 - 8-16 .500
 
May. 15, 1999
22. Rockets 88   Hakeem Olajuwon 18 10 1 1 1 0 4 39 8-19 .421 0-0 - 2-2 1.000
  Lakers 98   Shaquille O'Neal 37 11 3 0 3 2 2 43 14-22 .636 0-0 - 9-18 .500
 
- 1999-00 Season - 
Game
 
Player
Pts TRb Ast Stl Blk TO PF Min
FG
%
3PT
%
FT
%
 
Nov. 10, 1999
23. Rockets 88   Hakeem Olajuwon 15 10 1 1 2 1 1 36 5-18 .278 0-0 - 5-7 .714
  Lakers 89   Shaquille O'Neal 6 7 1 0 1 1 1 15 3-6 .500 0-0 - 0-0 -
 
Jan. 30, 2000
24. Rockets 89   Hakeem Olajuwon 8 10 1 0 2 0 3 22 3-8 .375 0-1 .000 2-4 .500
  Lakers 83   Shaquille O'Neal 27 19 0 0 0 3 5 41 12-27 .444 0-0 - 3-8 .375
 
Feb. 27, 2000
25. Rockets 85   Hakeem Olajuwon 6 6 1 0 0 0 4 13 3-7 .429 0-0 - 0-0 -
  Lakers 101   Shaquille O'Neal 24 13 8 1 5 2 1 36 11-20 .550 0-0 - 2-6 .333
 
- 2000-01 Season - 
Game
 
Player
Pts TRb Ast Stl Blk TO PF Min
FG
%
3PT
%
FT
%
 
Nov. 07, 2000
26. Rockets 84   Hakeem Olajuwon 12 5 0 5 0 0 4 35 5-9 .556 0-0 - 2-2 1.000
  Lakers 74   Shaquille O'Neal 24 7 5 0 3 4 3 45 8-19 .421 0-0 - 8-14 .571
 
Nov. 12, 2000
27. Rockets 99   Hakeem Olajuwon 13 7 2 0 2 0 4 31 4-9 .444 0-0 - 5-6 .833
  Lakers 105   Shaquille O'Neal 14 5 3 0 6 5 6 32 6-14 .429 0-0 - 2-5 .400
 
Dec. 21, 2000
28. Rockets 94   Hakeem Olajuwon 16 7 0 0 1 1 5 31 6-11 .545 0-0 - 4-4 1.000
  Lakers 99   Shaquille O'Neal 25 12 6 1 1 2 4 43 9-17 .529 0-0 - 7-22 .318
Shaq had a few goto shots down low and scored mostly near the basket.  Here's his weight:
  • 1987 (HS junior): 250

  • 1991 (LSU College): 294

  • 1992 (Rookie Season in Orlando): 301

  • 1999 (Lakers): 340

  • 2002 (Lakers): 380

  • 2003 (Lakers) 345

  • 2004 (Lakers): 370

  • 2005 (Heat): 320

  • 2010 (Celtics): 345

Posting Shaq's early years against an experienced Hakeem is fun I guess.  But then he packs on about a 40-60 more pounds and becomes an immovable object, a bull that does bull things. He's not going to dazzle with his shot selection and fancy footwork.   Shaq's a banger, he's going to use his body down low to absolutely move guys, including Hakeem.  Even when he uses his baby hook, he makes contact to create separation. This isn't rocket science.  

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So it’s ok for You to post shaq in his prime vs a end of his career Hakeem but it’s totally unfair for anyone to bring up Hakeem sweeping shaq when he was so young. Lol. Ok.

Heres a stat. 4-0 sweep. And Shaq himself said Hakeem was the best center he ever faced. Just say you gave a dumb example instead of doubling down.

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24 minutes ago, Rockethorn1978 said:

So it’s ok for You to post shaq in his prime vs a end of his career Hakeem but it’s totally unfair for anyone to bring up Hakeem sweeping shaq when he was so young. Lol. Ok.

Heres a stat. 4-0 sweep. And Shaq himself said Hakeem was the best center he ever faced. Just say you gave a dumb example instead of doubling down.

Wtf are you rambling on about?  I would have taken Hakeem over Shaq.  I enjoyed watching Hakeem's game more than Shaq.  My argument was that Shaq's game is mostly him being bigger bodied than everybody else.  He got his points bullying people down low, within a few feet of the basket.  I don't like his game--at all.  But because I mentioned him bullying Hakeem from Rockets, the mentally incontinent come blasting out of the surly webs.  He absolutely bullies Hakeem offensively.  Lets think about what he has that Hakeem doesn't--what can it be?  He's certainly not quicker, or has the shot selection, what can it be? He did well in that series and is really young.  Does it matter to you that Houston had a better team than Orlando which kind of matters?  Great, Hakeem was the best center he played--how many were there in the game--like 5?  GTFOOH.  The games listed are all of their meetings--stop cherry picking.  

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