Is Objectivity in Politics Dead?

[Lidig8r 1846]

Gentlemen, ladies and gentlemen pretending to be ladies... let me pose a serious question.

Is objectivity in politics dead?

By way of example, in seemingly every thread in this section, the argument quickly devolves into a "Trump is an idoit and so are all of the Trumpkins! You are mouth breathers!"  Contrarily, we read, "You are a pansy liberal, Hillary supporter who is naive and you are have socialistic views!"

Unfortunately, I believe we our political parties have become simply pawns for the special interest groups who fund them and the Repubs are going to the right, Dems are going to the left, there is a vast number of people caught in the middle who are equally repulsed by both extremes. And we have nowhere to go.  The system is rigged to make a Centrist Party almost an impossibilities as so called "leaders" in both parties do not lead but are mere mouthpieces for those who fund their campaigns.

Am I the only one who would enjoy coming on here to read some intelligent political discourse only to be turned away again and again by the personal attacks and lack of insight.  Gentleman and Ladies, many of us graduated from the University of Texas! Our motto, "What starts here changes the world!" What happened to that ideal.  What happened to the Ronald Reagans and Tip O"Neils, who in public, spoke of the other with respect and epitomized the term, "the loyal opposition" but who in private, probably went after it tooth and nail.

Are we truly that far gone? I would love to read about and join in an intelligent discussion on trade with China, withdrawing from the Iran Nuclear Deal, North Korea, and domestic issues without the inane and ridiculous personal attacks. Is it truly so impossible to discuss with an open mind and intelligence, issues even though we may disagree with them without wallowing in the mud of simple mindedness and despair.

Find me a person of intelligence who speaks of vision, who inspires us to chase our own passions and visions, who will act with their courage of their convictions.  I don't care if that person is red or blue... I would embrace that person.

[staboner 4955]

here. thanks. 9.95 please

[Brisketexan 104226]

The rest of your post sounds great, but unfortunately, it is killed by the answer to your opening question.  Yes, it's dead.  Completely.   So dead that corpse has decayed beyond the point of even stinking -- it's just some debris on the ground.

There are no objective facts or truths, and when you understand that, there can be no objective discussion about policy.

Go for it, start the conversations, but good luck having it not go in the shitter within 5 minutes.

I don't know when this trend really picked up speed, I just know that at some point in the past few years, it drove us over the cliff.  And here we are.  YAY TEAM!

[Lidig8r 1846]

6 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

The rest of your post sounds great, but unfortunately, it is killed by the answer to your opening question.  Yes, it's dead.  Completely.   So dead that corpse has decayed beyond the point of even stinking -- it's just some debris on the ground.

There are no objective facts or truths, and when you understand that, there can be no objective discussion about policy.

Go for it, start the conversations, but good luck having it not go in the shitter within 5 minutes.

I don't know when this trend really picked up speed, I just know that at some point in the past few years, it drove us over the cliff.  And here we are.  YAY TEAM!

Well hell Brisket... I don't want to believe the Visigoths are at the gates. It doesn't have to be that way.  Perhaps it is time to weep for the republic.

[Chuckie Finster 22571]

Democracy is supposed to work as follows:  

People have beliefs/People elect people that they think will act closest to said beliefs/Elected officials act accordingly

Somehow it has evolved to:

Political parties have beliefs/People shape their beliefs around whatever their chosen political party believes/Elected officials do whatever the fuck they want

When the majority of citizens no longer have their own belief system and rely on others to shape their worldview, it's no wonder that there is an inability to compromise.

Edited May 21, 2018 by Chuckie Finster

[staboner 4955]

no its not dead. its dead on here because the medium is terrible for constructive conversation

if we behaved better here you would find more surly posters here, and maybe more new posters here interacting

first step - stop being a R v D culture warrior at every step in your thoughts and actions. 

rinse and repeat. someday hope you motherfuckers will hopefully realize how we govern and communicate is the problem, not guns, trump, immigrants, or any other goddamn thing you get distracted by

happy monday, lets keep the week nuke free

[Jack Burton 35]

This isn't a both sides issue

[staboner 4955]

second step - learn to ignore posters that have repeatedly acted like idoits

[Brisketexan 104226]

2 minutes ago, Lidig8r said:

Well hell Brisket... I don't want to believe the Visigoths are at the gates. It doesn't have to be that way.  Perhaps it is time to weep for the republic.

It ain't about what we want to believe.  Look outside the gate -- the Visigoths are there, there's a shitload of 'em, and that gate ain't gonna hold.

Here's a perfect example of our team mentality.  Read this old statement from the White House:

Quote

With the rising of tonight’s moon, I send my greetings and best wishes to all Muslims observing Ramadan in the United States and around the world.

During the holy month of Ramadan, Muslims commemorate the revelation of the Quran to the prophet Muhammad through fellowship and prayer.  Many observe this holy time by fasting, performing acts of charity, reciting prayers, and reading the Quran.

Ramadan is a time of self-reflection intended to deepen one’s spiritual growth and renew a sense of appreciation for the many blessings God provides.  In this spirit of thanksgiving and reflection, those observing Ramadan can strengthen our communities, help those in need, and serve as good examples for how to live a holy life.

Ramadan reminds us of the richness Muslims add to the religious tapestry of American life.  In the United States, we are all blessed to live under a Constitution that fosters religious liberty and respects religious practice.  Our Constitution ensures Muslims can observe Ramadan in accordance with the dictates of conscience and unimpeded by government.  By doing so, the Constitution also furnishes varied opportunities for all Americans to deepen their understanding of the human soul.

As so many people unite to celebrate Ramadan, the first lady and I join in the hope for a blessed month.  Ramadan Mubarak.

Imagine how that statement was perceived when Obama issued it.  We all know that the Trump crowd was frothing at the mouth about how this is pathetic simpering catering to muslims.  Not the "get tough on muslims" that we desperately need.

And the Obama defenders told us how this was actually the kind of measured and human statement that we need in order to get along better with muslims in our country.

 

Except, you know....this was TRUMP'S statement on Ramadan a week ago.  Wanna bet how those takes would COMPLETELY flip once we told those folks who actually said it?  Yeah, no need to answer.

Visigoths.  Gate's down.

[deadshank 24648]

5 minutes ago, Jack Burton said:

This isn't a both sides issue

Do tell

[Jack Burton 35]

i just did

[hpslugga 4026]

Quote

There are no objective facts or truths, and when you understand that, there can be no objective discussion about policy.

Hammer meets nail.

Postmodernist thinking has absolutely infected our political discourse to the point where we really aren't supposed to, as Gandhi put it, "call a liar a liar." Everyone has "different narratives," and like you say, "there are no objective facts or truths."

[Nivek 16771]

The moderates have the Democratic party and little else.   The Right has been taken over by the extremes.  The left has not.   The left still marginalizes the kooks within the left.  The few on the right willing to challenge the kooks on the right, quit/pout and vote with them so they can retain office.   

The demonizing of the anyone in the opposition is the SOP of the right.   They worked to undermine a President whom they disagreed with out of pure politics, but not out of policy.  He took their policy, had them help write it,  and he enacted it, and they hated him for it.   That is the current Republican party.  The left does no such thing. 

The left has a fuckton of problems, but they are still adults and hold themselves to a much higher standard.  

Edited May 21, 2018 by Nivek

[RomaVicta 29704]

Objectivity is difficult perhaps impossible to attain in any field. I want to except science but my scant knowledge of Heisenberg's Principle stays my hand.

The plague on our political house that you describe is pretty much the embracing of a simplistic dogma and vilification of opponents. Elements of our electorate have refined Heil Hitler/It's the Jews! to Hail Party/It's the Libs!  The other side of the spectrum is stupid and simplistic but not so lock-step and hate-oriented.

We like the fit of worn, comfortable argument that has armored us for years against any new thoughts or positions. It has a nice downward spiral pattern in the fabric.

[sugar 100]

Rush Limbaugh and Fox News destroyed "truth".

The left still tells truths, and they lose elections as a consequence.

Crime pays, and the scumfuck President the right elected proves that. He's using his office to get paid.

[bernorange 8345]

When two tribes go to war
A point is all you can score

[deadshank 24648]

6 minutes ago, Jack Burton said:

i just did

 

7 minutes ago, Jack Burton said:

i just did

Intriuging explanation.   Can you expand on it?

[Brisketexan 104226]

5 minutes ago, Nivek said:

The moderates have the Democratic party and little else.   The Right has been taken over by the extremes.  The left has not.   The left still marginalizes the kooks within the left.  The few on the right willing to challenge the kooks on the right, quit/pout and vote with them so they can retain office.   

The demonizing of the anyone in the opposition is the SOP of the right.   They worked to undermine a President whom they disagreed with out of pure politics, but not out of policy.  He took their policy, had them help write it,  and he enacted it, and they hated him for it.   That is the current Republican party.  The left does no such thing. 

The left has a fuckton of problems, but they are still adults and hold themselves to a much higher standard.  

I don't put the left on nearly the pedestal you do in that regard....but I get your point.

How about this -- today, I see the phenomenon we bemoan as present among many folks on the left, and it is a defect present in their political thinking.  But among the right, it's not a defect, it's their brand.  And it's not just present, it controls the party at its highest level.

But all of that said, the problem has enough universality that it has to be addressed objectively and without regard to party/end of the political spectrum.  But the folks who need to hear it aren't listening.  And they never will.

[Jack Burton 35]

23 minutes ago, deadshank said:

 

Intriuging explanation.   Can you expand on it?

No, it's self-evident in dealing with posters throughout the spectrum.

[Guest]

55 minutes ago, hpslugga said:

Hammer meets nail.

Postmodernist thinking has absolutely infected our political discourse to the point where we really aren't supposed to, as Gandhi put it, "call a liar a liar." Everyone has "different narratives," and like you say, "there are no objective facts or truths."

This, we aren't singing from the same sheet of music anymore. That's the power of the ego and individualism run amok. Enjoy your 70 years on earth, I guess.

[EMAWesome 101]

1 hour ago, Nivek said:

The moderates have the Democratic party and little else.   The Right has been taken over by the extremes.  The left has not.   The left still marginalizes the kooks within the left.  The few on the right willing to challenge the kooks on the right, quit/pout and vote with them so they can retain office.   

The demonizing of the anyone in the opposition is the SOP of the right.   They worked to undermine a President whom they disagreed with out of pure politics, but not out of policy.  He took their policy, had them help write it,  and he enacted it, and they hated him for it.   That is the current Republican party.  The left does no such thing. 

The left has a fuckton of problems, but they are still adults and hold themselves to a much higher standard.  

Which planet are you living on?  It's not planet Earth.  The "right" is the furtherest to the left it has ever been.  No one on the right gives one shit about balanced budgets or budget deficits, no one on the right is condemning homosexuality as part of a campaign strategy.  Name me the last time a Republican championed the idea of smaller government?  The only reason the right seems further to the right than ever is because the left is the furthest to the left it has ever been.  Hell, in the last week alone the left has taken the side of Hamas and MS-13 over the side of the President of the United States.  How much more to the left can you get?  As far as demonizing goes, give one example of the Democrats doing absolutely anything other than demonizing Trump since Nov. 8, 2016.  They have introduced zero ideas on any political issue since Trump's election.  And as far as the hold themselves to a higher standard baloney, name one Democrat criticizing the FBI for planting a spy in the Trump campaign.  Name one Democrat criticizing the FBI for using an unverified dossier full of opposition research paid by a political opponent as cause for obtaining FISA warrants.  Name one Democrat who has criticized Comey, Clapper, Brennan, etc. for lying under oath in Congressional testimonies.  The only higher standard the Democratic Party holds itself to is the standard of willing to do anything, no matter how unethical, immoral, or illegal in order to gain and maintain power and control in the federal government.

 

Here is the current difference between the two parties.  

The Republican Party takes logical, sane positions on issues and become stumbling, bumbling, incompetent putzes when it comes time to turn those positions into policies.  The Democrats take ridiculous, illogical, insane positions on issues and become motherfucking MacGyvers when it comes time to turn those positions into policies.

 

The Republicans are the political version of The Gang That Couldn't Shoot Straight.  If Wile E. Coyote was a politician, he would be a Republican.  The Democrats are Big Brother in 1984 or the pigs in Animal Farm.  They are the authoritarian, conformist, controlling nightmare straight out of the mind of George Orwell.  The Democrats believe they are entitled to unfettered power over everyone and everything.  If you think that is an exaggeration I offer their reaction to the last three presidential elections they have lost as evidence.

 

Edited May 21, 2018 by EMAWesome

[RomaVicta 29704]

1 hour ago, bernorange said:

When two tribes go to war
A point is all you can score

Are we living in a world where sex and horror are the new gods?

[sugar 100]

Fox bad.

[RomaVicta 29704]

15 minutes ago, EMAWesome said:

Which planet are you living on?  It's not planet Earth.  The "right" is the furtherest to the left it has ever been.  No one on the right gives one shit about balanced budgets or budget deficits, no one on the right is condemning homosexuality as part of a campaign strategy.  Name me the last time a Republican championed the idea of smaller government?  The only reason the right seems further to the right than ever is because the left is the furthest to the left it has ever been.  Hell, in the last week alone the left has taken the side of Hamas and MS-13 over the side of the President of the United States.  How much more to the left can you get?  As far as demonizing goes, give one example of the Democrats doing absolutely anything other than demonizing Trump since Nov. 8, 2016.  They have introduced zero ideas on any political issue since Trump's election.  And as far as the hold themselves to a higher standard baloney, name one Democrat criticizing the FBI for planting a spy in the Trump campaign.  Name one Democrat criticizing the FBI for using an unverified dossier full of opposition research paid by a political opponent as cause for obtaining FISA warrants.  Name one Democrat who has criticized Comey, Clapper, Brennan, etc. for lying under oath in Congressional testimonies.  The only higher standard the Democratic Party holds itself to is the standard of willing to do anything, no matter how unethical, immoral, or illegal in order to gain and maintain power and control in the federal government.

 

Here is the current difference between the two parties.  

The Republican Party takes logical, sane positions on issues and become stumbling, bumbling, incompetent putzes when it comes time to turn those positions into policies.  The Democrats take ridiculous, illogical, insane positions on issues and become motherfucking MacGyvers when it comes time to turn those positions into policies.

 

The Republicans are the political version of The Gang That Couldn't Shoot Straight.  If Wile E. Coyote was a politician, he would be a Republican.  The Democrats are Big Brother in 1984 or the pigs in Animal Farm.  They are the authoritarian, conformist, controlling nightmare straight out of the mind of George Orwell.  The Democrats believe they are entitled to unfettered power over everyone and everything.  If you think that is an exaggeration I offer their reaction to the last three presidential elections they have lost as evidence.

 

This needs to go into a time capsule. This pristine example of self-delusion and projection will explain to the future world why the shining city on a hill collapsed from rot throughout.

[David Dennison 18487]

29 minutes ago, EMAWesome said:

The Republican Party takes logical, sane positions on issues and become stumbling, bumbling, incompetent putzes when it comes time to turn those positions into policies.  The Democrats take ridiculous, illogical, insane positions on issues and become motherfucking MacGyvers when it comes time to turn those positions into policies.

The problem is how we define logical and sane, because I think Republican positions are anything but.

[Guest]

the fact that anyone thinks one side has the "high ground" is all you need to know.

 

"yeah we've lost objectivity, but it's because of those guys."

 

Fuck you.

 

It's on all of us.

[DDD Dad 14144]

Maybe we should start having [serious] threads.

[MaybeACoordinator 8349]

2 hours ago, Chuckie Finster said:

Democracy is supposed to work as follows:  

People have beliefs/People elect people that they think will act closest to said beliefs/Elected officials act accordingly

Somehow it has evolved to:

Political parties have beliefs/People shape their beliefs around whatever their chosen political party believes/Elected officials do whatever the fuck they want

When the majority of citizens no longer have their own belief system and rely on others to shape their worldview, it's no wonder that there is an inability to compromise.

Nope.
 

It's people have beliefs. They want to see them represented in the form of laws. But billionaires will only allow us to have those beliefs enshrined in law if they want them too, so they screen out any candidates that they can't bend over the kitchen sink along with the rest of us. And so we only get to choose between Tweedlefucked and TweedleCucked. 

[Chuckie Finster 22571]

6 minutes ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

Nope.
 

It's people have beliefs. They want to see them represented in the form of laws. But billionaires will only allow us to have those beliefs enshrined in law if they want them too, so they screen out any candidates that they can't bend over the kitchen sink along with the rest of us. And so we only get to choose between Tweedlefucked and TweedleCucked. 

See, I actually used to think this way too.  But the last couple of years has completely stripped away any delusions of us poor civilians being herded by billionaires.

We care about presidential transparency (birth certificate/emails), until they don't.  We care about the President golfing, until they don't.  We get really mad at the President for negotiating with hostile nations, until they don't.  And we do it all willingly.

We care about what we are told to care about for as long as they need us to care about it, and then we hold out our soup bowls for a refill.  

Edited May 21, 2018 by Chuckie Finster

[Smax 3799]

2 hours ago, Nivek said:

The moderates have the Democratic party and little else.   The Right has been taken over by the extremes.  The left has not.   The left still marginalizes the kooks within the left.  The few on the right willing to challenge the kooks on the right, quit/pout and vote with them so they can retain office.   

The demonizing of the anyone in the opposition is the SOP of the right.   They worked to undermine a President whom they disagreed with out of pure politics, but not out of policy.  He took their policy, had them help write it,  and he enacted it, and they hated him for it.   That is the current Republican party.  The left does no such thing. 

The left has a fuckton of problems, but they are still adults and hold themselves to a much higher standard.  

 

 

Couldnt disagree more, everything you typed applies to both parties, the left plays identity politics and they've demonized oil companies corporations and now anyone who isn't bleeding heart open arms accepting of lgbqrt and illegals are now labeled racist.

[DDD Dad 14144]

13 minutes ago, Smax said:

 

 

Couldnt disagree more, everything you typed applies to both parties, the left plays identity politics and they've demonized oil companies corporations and now anyone who isn't bleeding heart open arms accepting of lgbqrt and illegals are now labeled racist.

This is not a very objective post.

[thrillhammer 682]

so much negativity.  no, objectivity is not dead.  we can work together to come up with common solutions.  for this to happen though we need to elect moderates, representatives willing to compromise, reach across the aisle, and work with the other party.   the end game is not winner take all, where all the chips end up in one party's hands.  the end game is making america great again, and that will only be achieved with compromise and common solutions.

[David Dennison 18487]

25 minutes ago, Smax said:

Couldnt disagree more, everything you typed applies to both parties, the left plays identity politics and they've demonized oil companies corporations and now anyone who isn't bleeding heart open arms accepting of lgbqrt and illegals are now labeled racist.

Not anyone, just the ones who make homophobic, transphobic, or racist arguments.

[Brisketexan 104226]

3 minutes ago, thrillhammer said:

so much negativity.  no, objectivity is not dead.  we can work together to come up with common solutions.  for this to happen though we need to elect moderates, representatives willing to compromise, reach across the aisle, and work with the other party.   the end game is not winner take all, where all the chips end up in one party's hands.  the end game is making america great again, and that will only be achieved with compromise and common solutions.

So....it's not going to happen.

[thrillhammer 682]

Just now, Brisketexan said:

So....it's not going to happen.

probably not in our lifetime.

[Anastasis 23329]

#bothsides

[David Dennison 18487]

Just now, Anastasis said:

#bothsides

This is absolutely true.

Also true: one side is way worse.

[Ragnarok 103]

Sigh, OP is right.  That's why the political board is just so uninteresting now.  No rational discussion is possible.  Not much point in posting or reading. There's more interesting stuff elsewhere.

[JBJ 3646]

3 hours ago, Lidig8r said:

Gentlemen, ladies and gentlemen pretending to be ladies... let me pose a serious question.

Is objectivity in politics dead?

Have you read the rest of this thread?

To be fair, the change has been mostly this board.

[staboner 4955]

29 minutes ago, Ragnarok said:

Sigh, OP is right.  That's why the political board is just so uninteresting now.  No rational discussion is possible.  Not much point in posting or reading. There's more interesting stuff elsewhere.

its like this because the division is the guiding light of the conversation. 

if we had new parties, new people and new ways of thinking we can reinvent how we interact. right now the luggage weighs more than the places we want to go. 

change the process. in any well run business - a good manager or management team will change the process, not misidentify the symptom (as the root of the problem) and try to fix it. 

for the life of me i can't understand why we humans can't think about government like this. its painfully obvious that our government actually doesn't do anything, yet we vote for it over and over. 

[Nivek 16771]

3 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

I don't put the left on nearly the pedestal you do in that regard....but I get your point.

How about this -- today, I see the phenomenon we bemoan as present among many folks on the left, and it is a defect present in their political thinking.  But among the right, it's not a defect, it's their brand.  And it's not just present, it controls the party at its highest level.

But all of that said, the problem has enough universality that it has to be addressed objectively and without regard to party/end of the political spectrum.  But the folks who need to hear it aren't listening.  And they never will.

Allow me to put on my Brisket hat and robe for a moment.  It is less of a pedestal and more like a rock pathway through a pig stye. In the old days, Rep/Dem used to walk the path occasionally tossing some slop to the pigs and getting a little mud on their wingtips.   The Republicans have slowly been wobbling and decided to jump in the mud and rub shit on their faces to humor the pigs.  Then they got a boner,  went aggy and created a new subspecies.     

 

[Ragnarok 103]

Oh, our government does something. It screws over taxpayers to the benefit of special interest, without any regard for fiscal responsibilities. They have us fighting over which one gets the bigger share of the pie, but really, it hardly matters at all.  The system is broken, mainly by parties infinite ability to spend more than they take in.

Edited May 21, 2018 by Ragnarok
because

[David Dennison 18487]

18 minutes ago, Ragnarok said:

Oh, our government does something. It screws over taxpayers to the benefit of special interest, without any regard for fiscal responsibilities. They have us fighting over which one gets the bigger share of the pie, but really, it hardly matters at all.  The system is broken, mainly by parties infinite ability to spend more than they take in.

This is a campaign finance issue more than anything else. 

[Doc Holliday 198]

It's already been said above and because of the extremist and volatile nature of this forum for discussing politics I don't engage.   I'll read, skim usually, and pick out interesting nuggets that appear to be based in truth.  Then I go talk to my friends, one specifically, who was chest deep in Bill Clinton's first run for office, and still has deep ties into Washington and even Austin's political scene.  She and I have objective conversation more often than not and it's usually asking questions that we can't always answer so it's an agreed speculation.  I'm good discussing and trying to understand in person.  On here, again, it's a whole bunch of nopes since it rarely goes beyond tomfoolery.

[WBT 20376]

20 hours ago, David Dennison said:

This is a campaign finance issue more than anything else. 

More of a voter ignorance/apathy issue

[SHOOTER12 8782]

Sorry to say, but I'm afraid objectivity, along with his twin brother civility died minutes apart.

[Mole 4318]

It's merely symptomatic of our post-modern ennui. There are no absolutes, and thus you perceive our world as meaningless when it's really your own freedom you detest! 

On 5/21/2018 at 3:53 PM, Smax said:

 

 

Couldnt disagree more, everything you typed applies to both parties, the left plays identity politics and they've demonized oil companies corporations and now anyone who isn't bleeding heart open arms accepting of lgbqrt and illegals are now labeled racist.

 

Most of the racism accusations have fortunately faded from this site, but there were a few weeks where the label was loosely thrown around in order to stifle discussion. The move was to declare someone a racist and gaslight them by calling the overly sensitive when they protested. Think back to the tiki torch parade and Trump's idiotic "both sides" comments. There were interesting and useful discussions to be had surrounding the place of Antifa in society, but it was very difficult to have a discussion without having to preface everything with "Nazis are bad." Numerous shaggy posters were called Nazis for not being sufficiently angry. I suspect that there are very few or more likely zero shaggy/surly posters who are Nazis or sympathizers. In the rage of Trump's admittedly enraging comments, there was no place for thoughtful discussion. It becomes difficult to have an honest and thoughtful discussion when certain thoughts are off-limits or bound to be used as weapons.

We've accepted the very evangelical idea that what you think is more important than how you think. If a person agrees with me, they are thinking the right thoughts, so they must be right thinking. If they disagree, there is something wrong with them. They're a libtard, trumpkin, racist, redneck, cuck, etc. We dehumanize those with disagree with.  I'm not sure if this is just a cultural problem or a broader human problem. In other words, I'm not sure if objectivity was ever alive.

Edited May 22, 2018 by Mole

[David Dennison 18487]

Objectivity from a subject is impossible. All the subject can do is try its very best to act with as much useful information as possible.

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Objectivity from a subject is impossible. All the subject can do is try its very best to act with as much useful information as possible.

You never been to Tahoe, eh?

[Ragnarok 103]

Here's the thing.  Most of the right (including me) is utterly convinced that we have an out of control and criminal DOJ and FBI covering up it's own crimes with a fake investigation into Trump and Russia.  The left is utterly convinced that Trump somehow conspired with Russia.  It's laughable to me, but they believe it.  And they see the DOJ and FBI and Mueller as the heroes in this drama.  And no rational dialog is possible between the 2 groups. The left has kinda taken over this board, and well, it's not like you can have a real debate here.  Now, I'm not actually proposing this (cause it wouldn't work) but it would almost be better to have a left and right board.  The lefties can breathlessly discuss Trump's crimes and how close they are to actually uncovering Trump's crimes. And the right could breathlessly discuss Comey's crimes, and how close we are to uncovering the real dirt on the DOJ and the FBI.  Better than the mindless insult fest this has become.