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I’ll be at church and can’t make it.  But thanks for all you do and please post the next one.  Didn’t even occur to my naive ass that back to school season can be so rough for so many young people.  If possible; can you post the recording of the panel?  Or I’ll just click on  it later today and see if it’s there.  Godspeed

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Thank you again to those who post things from your lives here. This is still a safe place to do so and I really appreciate reading everything because it helps me continue to better understand our fellow human beings and how we operate and live our lives. I have spent most of my life just watching and listening to people (I really should get myself in gear and become a social psychologist) because I find it to be one of the most interesting things I can do. 
 

All of you are amazing in your own way. Please keep sharing the details of your lives when you need to. You never know who you are helping.

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21 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

Man, this is relevant here and many places.  Check it out.  https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2023/09/us-culture-moral-education-formation/674765/

Not a big David Brooks fan and this is another example of why. He’s windy and throws in a lot of data but his reasoning isn’t very compelling to me. And he’s pretty delusional, or at least myopic, when he appears to want cultural mores but somehow without the “enforcement” — shaming or whatever — that would support them. And he wants to throw stones at politicians he doesn’t like as lacking the morality we should want while ignoring that, in one of his examples, the other candidate seemed pretty lacking in morality herself. 

There’s obviously no easy answer, let alone solution, for why the stuff he’s writing about is like it is. It’s reductionist AF, and I know that, but to me probably the fundamental factor that drives the “meanness” he mentions is galactically shitty parenting — often with the best of intentions — that results in little shitweasels so steeped in “look at me and how important I am and how I can do no wrong and how the world revolves around me” that their sense of self-importance, entitlement, and selfishness has solidified into a worldview in which someone who disagrees with them doesn’t simply have a different opinion, isn’t simply wrong, but is essentially affirmatively evil. Of course you’re going to be mean to someone who is affirmatively evil. 

An outgrowth of that is, imo, “given that I’m so fucking special, why isn’t life catering to my every whim and it’s making me sad and unhappy that it isn’t” which has very predictable outcomes for happiness. Or lack thereof. 

Personally, I blame the mindset that gives five year olds “preschool graduations.” You didn’t graduate preschool. You showed up and played and sang and drew somewhere other than home. It’s not an accomplishment. When every damned thing is an event, perspective is out the window with, again, very predictable outcomes. Also, get off my lawn. 

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Preschool graduations are to blame for America getting so cruel again?  Okay. I am going to take my 4.5yo to pre school today.  First day and all.  God willing, just us and maybe her grandparents will attend her little graduation ceremony in nine months time.  We won’t send out announcements or even post photos.  Just a moment for her and her surviving grandparents to enjoy.  
 

if I have to listen to losers whine about an event for three fucking years, then I can sure as shit tolerate positive talk about an event for three hours.  
 

we were always mean.  But we tried to get better and did a more inspiring job at it than most countries.  Our problem now is we suddenly decided being stupid was the cool part.  

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22 hours ago, Doc Daneeka said:

Not a big David Brooks fan and this is another example of why. He’s windy and throws in a lot of data but his reasoning isn’t very compelling to me. And he’s pretty delusional, or at least myopic, when he appears to want cultural mores but somehow without the “enforcement” — shaming or whatever — that would support them. And he wants to throw stones at politicians he doesn’t like as lacking the morality we should want while ignoring that, in one of his examples, the other candidate seemed pretty lacking in morality herself. 

There’s obviously no easy answer, let alone solution, for why the stuff he’s writing about is like it is. It’s reductionist AF, and I know that, but to me probably the fundamental factor that drives the “meanness” he mentions is galactically shitty parenting — often with the best of intentions — that results in little shitweasels so steeped in “look at me and how important I am and how I can do no wrong and how the world revolves around me” that their sense of self-importance, entitlement, and selfishness has solidified into a worldview in which someone who disagrees with them doesn’t simply have a different opinion, isn’t simply wrong, but is essentially affirmatively evil. Of course you’re going to be mean to someone who is affirmatively evil. 

An outgrowth of that is, imo, “given that I’m so fucking special, why isn’t life catering to my every whim and it’s making me sad and unhappy that it isn’t” which has very predictable outcomes for happiness. Or lack thereof. 

Personally, I blame the mindset that gives five year olds “preschool graduations.” You didn’t graduate preschool. You showed up and played and sang and drew somewhere other than home. It’s not an accomplishment. When every damned thing is an event, perspective is out the window with, again, very predictable outcomes. Also, get off my lawn. 

I suppose that's fair.  

But you hit on what kind of resonated with me that you don't see that often in sort of mainstream journalism.

My main experience with mental health has been my own alcoholism and in recovery, consequently, my concern with and exposure to other addicts.  That winds up being kind of a crash course in a lot of aspects of mental health.

At some point, I read about the program of AA and the Big Book being an outstanding work of practical "moral psychology."  I was unfamiliar with that term, and have little exposure to philosophy.   So, I thought "moral psychology" meant learning the difference between right and wrong type stuff.  But that's not true, exactly.

In the sense it is used there, and by Brooks, and in the principles of AA, it is to stop being so damned "self-referential."  My terminology for that is "inward dwelling" (not sure where I got that, it's probably not original to me, hardly anything is).

One of the bigger things that AA tries to instill is that you are not in charge, it's not all about you, you don't run this shit.  You have to get out of your own head, interface with and serve other people, and realize that you are a tiny molecule in this larger community of humans where you depend on them and they on you.

One of the more common features of mental illnesses of all types is that people are stuck in their own heads and dominated by their own flawed perceptions and reactions to things.

It sounds kind of like "stop being a selfish prick," but it's far more subtle than that.  I am absolutely not saying that all mental health sufferers are selfish pricks.

AA puts you in a smallish, interdependent community that teaches and reinforces those lessons.  And for a variety of reasons, modern life has discarded a lot of those communities, and, as Brooks observes, people have become increasingly isolated and "self-referential" or inward-dwelling, and mental health and other things have suffered.

You seem to agree with that premise and fail to address the role of community institutions in overcoming that "shitty parenting."  I just happen to agree with him that the experience of community that comes from things like church, scouts, and a lot of other institutions that are discredited now, sometimes for very good reason, leaves a bit of a hole in the "moral education" of children and people in general.

It's a complex problem and the absence of community is but one aspect of it and I think Brooks touches on and acknowldges those other things.

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2 hours ago, YGIFS said:

Preschool graduations are to blame for America getting so cruel again?  Okay. I am going to take my 4.5yo to pre school today.  First day and all.  God willing, just us and maybe her grandparents will attend her little graduation ceremony in nine months time.  We won’t send out announcements or even post photos.  Just a moment for her and her surviving grandparents to enjoy.  
 

if I have to listen to losers whine about an event for three fucking years, then I can sure as shit tolerate positive talk about an event for three hours.  
 

we were always mean.  But we tried to get better and did a more inspiring job at it than most countries.  Our problem now is we suddenly decided being stupid was the cool part.  

It’s not the event. It’s the mindset that every. fucking. thing. a kid does is an event. 

And, as I readily acknowledged, it’s very reductionist but when you lionize all the things you, imo, get overly self-centered kids. Who often turn into overly self-centered adults. Who tend to be narcissistic and mean. 

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1 hour ago, TwiceHorn said:

You seem to agree with that premise and fail to address the role of community institutions in overcoming that "shitty parenting."  I just happen to agree with him that the experience of community that comes from things like church, scouts, and a lot of other institutions that are discredited now, sometimes for very good reason, leaves a bit of a hole in the "moral education" of children and people in general.

It's a complex problem and the absence of community is but one aspect of it and I think Brooks touches on and acknowldges those other things.

I can’t really address much my opinion of the role of community institutions, or society at large, without getting into CR territory. A fundamental issue there, imo, is the “you’re not the boss of me” aspect of the situation along with a general tendency of society these days to apply “who are you to judge” and “you don’t know his situation” to the point that you are probably a bigot of some sort if you presume that moral education can even be a thing.

I also think, though, there’s a little bit of a chicken and egg problem with whether the hole in the moral education of children and people in general is due to the “abandonment,” for lack of a better word, of those institutions or whether the hole led to that abandonment. 

When so much seems to turn on which smaller and smaller boxes one wants to use to define oneself, community gets harder and harder, imo. I’m sure a lot of people here have some relatively recent examples of being cast out by friends or even family as unclean due to disagreement about some political, medical, social, moral, or other issue that really doesn’t define whether a person is worth having around.

This ties back to my earlier point that people seem to be increasingly rigid in their own views and less tolerant of other views to the point where malice is often used as an explanation for differing opinions rather than just having different opinions. I don’t know where you’d even start with broad, community-based moral education in that environment… or whether such a discussion would belong anywhere outside CR, in general, or in this thread, in particular.

I’ll just say that I think the current lack of moral education is a case of the people knowing what they want and deserving to get it good and hard. I’ve probably veered outside the purpose of this thread, though I do think finding more common ground with others would ease some of the stress and anxiety people seem to be feeling, even if there’s not complete overlap in beliefs  

 

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10 minutes ago, troph said:

I quit birthdays for the most part. I think they are narcissistic as fuck.

I have a 5 year old “niece” who found out her gender reveal party was lame by today’s standards so she wants another one. And her mother is planning it. I can’t even. 

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25 minutes ago, Doc Daneeka said:

I can’t really address much my opinion of the role of community institutions, or society at large, without getting into CR territory. A fundamental issue there, imo, is the “you’re not the boss of me” aspect of the situation along with a general tendency of society these days to apply “who are you to judge” and “you don’t know his situation” to the point that you are probably a bigot of some sort if you presume that moral education can even be a thing.

I also think, though, there’s a little bit of a chicken and egg problem with whether the hole in the moral education of children and people in general is due to the “abandonment,” for lack of a better word, of those institutions or whether the hole led to that abandonment. 

When so much seems to turn on which smaller and smaller boxes one wants to use to define oneself, community gets harder and harder, imo. I’m sure a lot of people here have some relatively recent examples of being cast out by friends or even family as unclean due to disagreement about some political, medical, social, moral, or other issue that really doesn’t define whether a person is worth having around.

This ties back to my earlier point that people seem to be increasingly rigid in their own views and less tolerant of other views to the point where malice is often used as an explanation for differing opinions rather than just having different opinions. I don’t know where you’d even start with broad, community-based moral education in that environment… or whether such a discussion would belong anywhere outside CR, in general, or in this thread, in particular.

I’ll just say that I think the current lack of moral education is a case of the people knowing what they want and deserving to get it good and hard. I’ve probably veered outside the purpose of this thread, though I do think finding more common ground with others would ease some of the stress and anxiety people seem to be feeling, even if there’s not complete overlap in beliefs  

 

Good talk, Russ.  Seriously, though I appreciate the thoughtful discourse.  

Ironically, I was raised in a methodist church, free from child abuse and overt white supremacy that actually taught tolerance and respect for other faiths and the actual larger message of Christ, the good part.  I'm an Eagle Scout and had a positive experience there, free from child abuse, etc.  Which is not to say either of those institutions is free of problems.

I also was a mediocre athlete that felt the sting of never or rarely starting and actually being cut once or twice and I don't think I ever got anything like a participation trophy.  So, I had to learn to deal with that adversity at a fairly young age.  It's not mentioned much, but sports are a community institution that survives and thrives, but I think the fundamental nature of it has changed over the last 25 years or so into another "me me me" thing.

Of course, I'm also an addict that has a problem with being self-referential.  So those community institutions and experiences didn't save me.  And I can't blame my parents, either.  They were a bit overbearing as parents of only children tend to be, and that warped me in certain ways leading or feeding into my addictive traits, but they were far from shitty parents.

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Twice

Similarities include the Eagle Scout experience, without abuse.  We had, in our quartermaster’s room, the largest collection of Playboy’s.  So besides the law and the oath and winning camporees, there was plenty of just being boys. 
Second the experience of being a mediocre or worse athlete.  Being well known as a good target to crush on the scout defense was not as much fun as I’d planned.  But the real world lessons learned in those years were terrific.  I’m not so great.  Other people matter.  I should go and be and do better.

A dozen years of Church of Christ only gave me a decade of useless alienation from too many institutions.

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This is not from a society wide perspective, but only my own experiences. One of the best ways to understand society around you, as well as making a positive contribution to it, is to be engaged with people. One of the things I feel is important is that everyone should at some point in their existence is to work in a service industry job. Learn to communicate with your fellow humans. Learn how to be compassionate and care for others. While self-care is extremely important so is how you relate and show care and compassion to the world outside of your bubble.

I can also say that this does not come natural to me. Being able to be around people for hours at a time takes a mental toll on me that causes me to just go home and say and do nothing. The wear on an autistic mind from constant people interactions is a lot for me at times and is way more mentally draining than it is for a neurotypical person, but I do it. I am content to just hangout with my two dogs after a long day. However, when I am around people I make the effort to now communicate even when I am not working. Just simple interactions and conversations that will remind you that you are just one of several billion people on the road of life. Last week I helped a woman carry luggage up the subway stairs. I could have hurried up and left her to do it on her own. Taking the time to help this elderly woman made for a pleasant interaction between us and made both our days better. I talked a few minutes after to a guy while I was waiting for some fresh coffee at a bodega on my way to church. We talked about his car being side-swiped a couple of hours before by a likely drunk driver (Hit three total parked cars). I said that perhaps he should be thankful this happened because what if he had gotten in his car and something else had happened while he was driving. His car was damaged, but he was okay. That perspective helped him feel better about what transpired. 
 

Have those conversations with people. The smallest of interactions can be the most beneficial thing you do in someone else’s day. Make doing this everyday be a permanent part of who you are. You’ll be doing your small part to be kind. 

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On 8/16/2023 at 10:27 AM, troph said:

I quit birthdays for the most part. I think they are narcissistic as fuck.

Last year I decided that I would take my birthday and use it to celebrate other folks I worked with. I decided to cook them some chicken fajitas and I made it was salsa I made as well. I am not real big on celebrating my birthday so I felt a better use of the day would be to let others know how much they are appreciated. I still had someone bring me a small gift (It was some gummy snacks that were pretty good.) and I thought it was cool.

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15 hours ago, UpperWestside said:

This is not from a society wide perspective, but only my own experiences. One of the best ways to understand society around you, as well as making a positive contribution to it, is to be engaged with people. One of the things I feel is important is that everyone should at some point in their existence is to work in a service industry job. Learn to communicate with your fellow humans. Learn how to be compassionate and care for others. While self-care is extremely important so is how you relate and show care and compassion to the world outside of your bubble.

I can also say that this does not come natural to me. Being able to be around people for hours at a time takes a mental toll on me that causes me to just go home and say and do nothing. The wear on an autistic mind from constant people interactions is a lot for me at times and is way more mentally draining than it is for a neurotypical person, but I do it. I am content to just hangout with my two dogs after a long day. However, when I am around people I make the effort to now communicate even when I am not working. Just simple interactions and conversations that will remind you that you are just one of several billion people on the road of life. Last week I helped a woman carry luggage up the subway stairs. I could have hurried up and left her to do it on her own. Taking the time to help this elderly woman made for a pleasant interaction between us and made both our days better. I talked a few minutes after to a guy while I was waiting for some fresh coffee at a bodega on my way to church. We talked about his car being side-swiped a couple of hours before by a likely drunk driver (Hit three total parked cars). I said that perhaps he should be thankful this happened because what if he had gotten in his car and something else had happened while he was driving. His car was damaged, but he was okay. That perspective helped him feel better about what transpired. 
 

Have those conversations with people. The smallest of interactions can be the most beneficial thing you do in someone else’s day. Make doing this everyday be a permanent part of who you are. You’ll be doing your small part to be kind. 

However  you have come to it, you certainly give the impression of being a person for others.

And yeah, I can relate.  Don't think I'm neuro-atypical, but I am, at some level. fairly introverted.  I can be quite content alone:  alone but not lonely.  Not sure if nature or nurture as an only child.

At the same time, I do seem to crave some social interaction.  But only "so much."  At times, I can be more or less the life of the party and will talk your ear off.  Other times, my "social battery" is drained and I can't.  That was one thing I liked about drinking, it seemed to unlock the social animal in me.

I don't worry too much about it.  But one of the tenets of AA is "radical acceptance," which includes accepting who you are and being an authentic person.  And sometimes I feel like the social animal is a put on, it's not really me.  Ah, progress not perfection, even after 25 years.

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20 hours ago, UpperWestside said:

This is not from a society wide perspective, but only my own experiences. One of the best ways to understand society around you, as well as making a positive contribution to it, is to be engaged with people. One of the things I feel is important is that everyone should at some point in their existence is to work in a service industry job. Learn to communicate with your fellow humans. Learn how to be compassionate and care for others. While self-care is extremely important so is how you relate and show care and compassion to the world outside of your bubble.

I can also say that this does not come natural to me. Being able to be around people for hours at a time takes a mental toll on me that causes me to just go home and say and do nothing. The wear on an autistic mind from constant people interactions is a lot for me at times and is way more mentally draining than it is for a neurotypical person, but I do it. I am content to just hangout with my two dogs after a long day. However, when I am around people I make the effort to now communicate even when I am not working. Just simple interactions and conversations that will remind you that you are just one of several billion people on the road of life. Last week I helped a woman carry luggage up the subway stairs. I could have hurried up and left her to do it on her own. Taking the time to help this elderly woman made for a pleasant interaction between us and made both our days better. I talked a few minutes after to a guy while I was waiting for some fresh coffee at a bodega on my way to church. We talked about his car being side-swiped a couple of hours before by a likely drunk driver (Hit three total parked cars). I said that perhaps he should be thankful this happened because what if he had gotten in his car and something else had happened while he was driving. His car was damaged, but he was okay. That perspective helped him feel better about what transpired. 
 

Have those conversations with people. The smallest of interactions can be the most beneficial thing you do in someone else’s day. Make doing this everyday be a permanent part of who you are. You’ll be doing your small part to be kind.  

People, in general, drain the holy hell out of me in a way that would make Colin Robinson blush. Unless we’re talking about something that I find hella engaging — Texas football, economics, maybe WoW back in the day — I just can’t for very long. I can do it for short periods and I’m polite to those in service industry jobs — and no one wants me in a service industry job, though some of my calls when I did computer tech support were legendary within the company — but it’s not my forte. 

Back when I went to more Texas away games, there was an older couple who were almost always there, too, and the wife carried an expensive and heavy as fuck purse. So I carried her purse from the tailgates into the stadiums. I’m gigantic. I’m wearing burnt orange. I’m walking into stadiums in Stillwater, Columbus, Colombia, Manhattan, Lawrence, etc. carrying a purse. And hoping a bitch would. It wasn’t as altruistic as helping with luggage, I suppose, but it was a pretty cool ritual for a while. 

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7 hours ago, Doc Daneeka said:

People, in general, drain the holy hell out of me in a way that would make Colin Robinson blush. Unless we’re talking about something that I find hella engaging — Texas football, economics, maybe WoW back in the day — I just can’t for very long. I can do it for short periods and I’m polite to those in service industry jobs — and no one wants me in a service industry job, though some of my calls when I did computer tech support were legendary within the company — but it’s not my forte. 

Back when I went to more Texas away games, there was an older couple who were almost always there, too, and the wife carried an expensive and heavy as fuck purse. So I carried her purse from the tailgates into the stadiums. I’m gigantic. I’m wearing burnt orange. I’m walking into stadiums in Stillwater, Columbus, Colombia, Manhattan, Lawrence, etc. carrying a purse. And hoping a bitch would. It wasn’t as altruistic as helping with luggage, I suppose, but it was a pretty cool ritual for a while. 

Oh my gosh you mentioned WoW. I played that game like it was a job for a long time. Good memories and whatnot, but man it was addictive. Service industry jobs can teach better communication skills. We sorely need that as a worldwide society. Staring at phones all day in public has killed communication.
 

I think your example is a good one. You did something that helped someone else out. I think that’s great. I have to say that I probably would have laughed if someone had confronted you and you went full Deebo on them. 

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2 hours ago, UpperWestside said:

Oh my gosh you mentioned WoW. I played that game like it was a job for a long time. Good memories and whatnot, but man it was addictive. Service industry jobs can teach better communication skills. We sorely need that as a worldwide society. Staring at phones all day in public has killed communication.
 

I think your example is a good one. You did something that helped someone else out. I think that’s great. I have to say that I probably would have laughed if someone had confronted you and you went full Deebo on them. 

Communication skills, I have. Self-control with using them with people who won’t listen or who say silly things, not so much. 

I could play WoW for 12 hours and it seemed like nothing. I still remember the first time I went to Thunder Bluff at night. Or to Stranglethorn Vale. Or logging in on my priest sitting in Dalaran and having all the tanks on my friends list messaging to run stuff. IMO, WotLK was peak WoW. Every so often, I’ll listen to the Grizzly Hills ambient music and decide to play again and, for a while, it’s 2008 again. 

As far as the purse, I suppose they figured that anyone willing to carry a purse in that situation is probably able, or at least willing to try, to make the encounter go very poorly for them.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Today is one of those days I have to remind myself that no one can hurt my feelings without my permission. I'm taking a lot of heat from colleagues for leaving my profession's state association but it has to happen. I've spent 11 years with the group, pay dues every year, and do everything they ask me to do. I call my state rep, call my state senator, call my us house rep, call my us senators, meet with most of them (except Cornyn because his people don't respond), call offices when a bad bill is up for vote, and I go to Austin every legislative session wearing my white coat. When they needed me the most, I stepped up to the plate and delivered. But when I needed them the most they acted like it was beneath them. They'll go hard in the paint for people who try to step out of their comfort zone on the statewide level but not on the local level? This is the thank you I get for loyal support? 

The only reason I bring this up here is because this has been eating at me for an entire year. Every time I see a social media post from them I just get reminded how I wasn't good enough for them to support. Now I'm getting these texts saying how I should re-up for another year, important goals for next year, can't do the hard work without member support, etc. Blah blah blah. Fuck that. 

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On 8/20/2023 at 2:14 PM, UpperWestside said:

One of the things I feel is important is that everyone should at some point in their existence is to work in a service industry job. Learn to communicate with your fellow humans. Learn how to be compassionate and care for others.

I'd say that working jobs like that have caused me to be less compassionate because people can be such assholes. I have people that call my office every day and it's basically "I haven't read the forms or the instructions, I can't comprehend anything being said to me, I don't know how to operate a computer and all of that is someone else's fault. I am incapable of fucking up."

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1 hour ago, Sandman said:

I'd say that working jobs like that have caused me to be less compassionate because people can be such assholes. I have people that call my office every day and it's basically "I haven't read the forms or the instructions, I can't comprehend anything being said to me, I don't know how to operate a computer and all of that is someone else's fault. I am incapable of fucking up."

We all have the capability to be that. I do not always spend time attempting to understand everyone that acts like that, but there is usually a reason for someone being that way. I naturally find things like this interesting though so thinking about a person’s reasons for their behavior is probably not going to be as interesting in the types of encounters you have. Having daily face-to-face encounters doing my job makes it fun to me.

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