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Posted

Kurt Cobain had a stronger than usual sensitive streak compared to a lot of other punks, but outside of Krist's intellect I sure wouldn't say either Novoselic or Grohl were passive, or pussies, or whatever.  I mean, Cobain tried to fight Axl Rose on a couple of occasions.  He could place himself in another character as a songwriter, and his lyrics certainly weren't all self-reflective.

To be very clear:  the pervasive pussiness in popular music started well after Cobain died.  We had to sort through the hacks like Gwen Bush or whaver the fuck his name was in their lame efforts to be Kurt or Eddie or whoever.  That took a few years. Hey to Scott Stapp.

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Posted
4 minutes ago, Celery Man said:

I’m really not a lyrics guy and I haven’t spent a lot of time pondering what is meant by a guy with teeth like god’s shoeshine getting another orange Julius or whatever but at this point I’m curious - what about Modest Mouse makes them seem like passive victims? This would make sense to me if we were dissecting Bright Eyes, I don’t quite follow for Modest Mouse.

Equal parts modesty and mousiness. 

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Posted
1 minute ago, Celery Man said:

I’m really not a lyrics guy and I haven’t spent a lot of time pondering what is meant by a guy with teeth like god’s shoeshine getting another orange Julius or whatever but at this point I’m curious - what about Modest Mouse makes them seem like passive victims? This would make sense to me if we were dissecting Bright Eyes, I don’t quite follow for Modest Mouse.

 

Man, I knew this was gonna get way off track which is why I was hesitant to even respond. Lyrics are not even really what I'm describing, though they can be a part of it. 

 

The only reason I even brought up Modest Mouse in the first place was because it's just one of those bands my drummer was really into with some of our other friends, could be like Band of Horses or whatever, I wouldn't get so hung up on a particular band. My general thought about Modest Mouse is essentially the Don Draper " I don't think of you at all" line.

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Posted
13 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

To be very clear:  the pervasive pussiness in popular music started well after Cobain died.  We had to sort through the hacks like Gwen Bush or whaver the fuck his name was in their lame efforts to be Kurt or Eddie or whoever.  That took a few years. Hey to Scott Stapp.

We only got deep in our feels AFTER Nirvana.  Those very pussies!

 

Meanwhile, back in the early 80's

Sometimes, I try to do things
And it just doesn't work out the way I want it to
And I get real frustrated
And like, I try hard to do it
And I like, take my time, but it just doesn't work out the way I want it to
It's like I concentrate on it real hard
But it just doesn't work out
And everything I do and everything I try
It never turns out
It's like, I need time to figure these things out

 

'Nevermind' that The Cure put out their first album in the 79.  I also remember listening to one of my older brother's records that he had just gotten.  Gang of Four Entertainment!   It was uh, new, new's a good word for that record in the late 70's.

 

tl/dr Let's not blame the millennials for everything.  

Spoiler

foo > killers

 

Posted
22 minutes ago, G650 said:

 

Man, I knew this was gonna get way off track which is why I was hesitant to even respond. Lyrics are not even really what I'm describing, though they can be a part of it. 

 

Well yeah but now you're trapped in a conversation about Modest Mouse.

I think it's kind of interesting actually - to me, Modest Mouse is about 1 iteration away from the grunge era. Band of Horses falls into a different camp that I don't have as good of a handle on but it is much more of a.... My Morning Jacket, Tame Impala, even Mumford or Avett Bros early 2010s indie jam folk etc stuff. But also, I really don't have a ton of familiarity with Modest Mouse past Good News. The first thing that pops into my head when I think of that band is Lonesome Crowded West from 1997. Which I would describe as following the loud soft loud thing, where the loud has a lot of grungey/80s alternative influence and soft is downtempo bass with noise.

The pussy music thing is also interesting because... say we're talking about music from the 2000s/2010s, what do we even mean by pussy? Cutting yourself pussy or scarf wearing banjo pussy? Cause we had both, but they were different scenes entirely.

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, Celery Man said:

Well yeah but now you're trapped in a conversation about Modest Mouse.

I know, fucking jokes on me obviously!

 

7 minutes ago, Celery Man said:

I think it's kind of interesting actually - to me, Modest Mouse is about 1 iteration away from the grunge era. Band of Horses falls into a different camp that I don't have as good of a handle on but it is much more of a.... My Morning Jacket, Tame Impala, even Mumford or Avett Bros early 2010s indie jam folk etc stuff. But also, I really don't have a ton of familiarity with Modest Mouse past Good News. The first thing that pops into my head when I think of that band is Lonesome Crowded West from 1997. Which I would describe as following the loud soft loud thing, where the loud has a lot of grungey/80s alternative influence and soft is downtempo bass with noise.

The pussy music thing is also interesting because... say we're talking about music from the 2000s/2010s, what do we even mean by pussy? Cutting yourself pussy or scarf wearing banjo pussy? Cause we had both, but they were different scenes entirely.

 

My Morning Jacket, that is like exactly the type of band I think of.

 

Did I call them pussies or did I say limp and passive? I can't remember actually, but the latter would be more accurate. And like I said this started in the mid 90s. Korn was the first one that really made me stop and ask wtf was going on, but you have you Linkin Parks, your At the Drive Ins, you name it. It seems like it started to shift mid 2010s. Stuff like lovelytheband's Broken was one of the ones from that era that I noticed a different vibe starting, along with all the stuff like Isbell and Stapleton, through a lot of indie rock like Ryan Hamilton and Kurt Baker. It really isn't genre specific as I said.

Edited by G650
Posted
6 minutes ago, G650 said:

Did I call them pussies or did I say limp and passive? I can't remember actually, but the latter would be more accurate.

…..your At the Drive Ins, you name it….

😀

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Posted
2 minutes ago, G650 said:

Did I call them pussies or did I say limp and passive? I can't remember actually, but the latter would be more accurate. And like I said this started in the mid 90s. Korn was the first one that really made me stop and ask wtf was going on, but you have you Linkin Parks, your At the Drive Ins, you name it. It seems like it started to shift mid 2010s. Stuff like lovelytheband's Broken was one of the ones from that era that I noticed a different vibe starting, along with all the stuff like Isbell and Stapleton, through a lot of indie rock like Ryan Hamilton and Kurt Baker. It really isn't genre specific as I said.

I'm honestly trying to follow what you are saying here, but I'm at a loss. What about this music/performance is hitting you as limp and passive exactly? You may think it sucks or isn't what you respond to in music, but that just feels like a bizarre way to describe it. 

 

 

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Posted
21 minutes ago, locodos said:

We only got deep in our feels AFTER Nirvana.  Those very pussies!

OK, it comes in waves.  Morrissey was a puss, too.  I'm just saying that the indie folk hey-ho bullshit that is STILL going on didn't show up in the mainstream until after grunge.  (Ironically, I was going to start a thread about that after hearing the flavor of the moment Myles Smith, but now it's not necessary.)

Posted
1 minute ago, jimmyjazz said:

OK, it comes in waves.  Morrissey was a puss, too.  I'm just saying that the indie folk hey-ho bullshit that is STILL going on didn't show up in the mainstream until after grunge.  (Ironically, I was going to start a thread about that after hearing the flavor of the moment Myles Smith, but now it's not necessary.)

image.thumb.jpeg.be837a1237925188d9b98201d2c2a898.jpeg

😀

Posted

Oh I definitely struggled with 60s folk, too.  Like I said, it comes in waves, but this latest wave is 2 decades old and it's annoying as hell.

So who am I seeing there?  Joni, Van, Dylan, Robbie, etc.?

Posted
7 minutes ago, UncleSonny said:

I'm honestly trying to follow what you are saying here, but I'm at a loss. What about this music/performance is hitting you as limp and passive exactly? You may think it sucks or isn't what you respond to in music, but that just feels like a bizarre way to describe it. 

 

 

 

Yeah, I get that you are, and I'm sure I'm not adequately describing it. But it's really just passivity/reactive action vs affirmative action, that's all.

 

At the Drive In is definitely one of the poster child bands for this. Screaming and yelling and banging your guitar doesn’t mean you aren't reactive and whiny. It's like a temper tantrum onstage. You know the scene in Dazed and Confused where Newhouse is in the back seat and goes all tearful and yells "I wanna dance!". It's basically that.

 

a9bbd9b8f918aa76dde04843ce5b0cd4.gif

 

Posted
1 hour ago, jimmyjazz said:

Oh I definitely struggled with 60s folk, too.  Like I said, it comes in waves, but this latest wave is 2 decades old and it's annoying as hell.

So who am I seeing there?  Joni, Van, Dylan, Robbie, etc.?

Neil Diamond in the red shirt. Neil Young in the white next to Joni.

Posted
2 hours ago, Celery Man said:

Well yeah but now you're trapped in a conversation about Modest Mouse.

I think it's kind of interesting actually - to me, Modest Mouse is about 1 iteration away from the grunge era. Band of Horses falls into a different camp that I don't have as good of a handle on but it is much more of a.... My Morning Jacket, Tame Impala, even Mumford or Avett Bros early 2010s indie jam folk etc stuff. But also, I really don't have a ton of familiarity with Modest Mouse past Good News. The first thing that pops into my head when I think of that band is Lonesome Crowded West from 1997. Which I would describe as following the loud soft loud thing, where the loud has a lot of grungey/80s alternative influence and soft is downtempo bass with noise.

The pussy music thing is also interesting because... say we're talking about music from the 2000s/2010s, what do we even mean by pussy? Cutting yourself pussy or scarf wearing banjo pussy? Cause we had both, but they were different scenes entirely.

I'm thoroughly confused by what @G650 is talking about with regard to Modest Mouse. It's definitely a weird, potentially limp-wristed band name, but nothing about the band IMO is soft. My wife and I went to the reunion show for the Lonesome Crowded West album and I forgot how heavy that thing was from start-to-finish. "Trailer Trash" and "Bankrupt on Selling" are the two anomalies and they're my two favorite tracks on the record. That was not a "wussy" crowd in attendance that night. There were lots of jean pocket chains and more than few bikers in attendance. They got a little more indie in the early '00s by the time I first stumbled across them. Putting them in any discussion with fucking Korn or Limp Bizkit is way off base. Completely different offshoots of rock music.

For reference, do we have an age for @G650? I'm 52 and grew up with the 80's (especially British New Wave) but pride myself on constantly discovering new (mostly indie) music as I get older. My wife and I probably average seeing 45-50 bands live per year (number is skewed because we'll hit at least one festival per year, sometimes two like this year). I just counted our 2024 run sheet and we saw 46 in 2024 with one festival (Kilby Block Party). We're already at 38 for 2025 (we went to both High Water Fest and Kilby and that is about 25 of the artists we've seen thus far).

Posted (edited)

Not to speak for @G650 but this is how I interpret what he's saying.  A lot of rock from that time felt more EMO  and didn't scratch that hard edge / straight ahead rock thing at least it didn't for me.   Like the musical equivalent of edging.  

For me MM and others were just background party music.   Kinda like The Killers

 

Edited by locodos
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Posted
37 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

I may be off base but I thought @G650 was alluding more to lyrical content than musical style in his criticisms.

 

So yeah, I specifically mentioned that it was style agnostic. In fact, it probably came through in heavier music more than light stuff now that I think about it. I mean Gordon Lightfoot was one of the hardest motherfuckers out. But when people post At the Drive IN, it's literally the thing I'm talking about to a tee. 

I'll just reiterate some things since some of it is kind of getting glossed over. What I'm really talking about is a larger mass cultural phenomenon and the only real part of this related to music is that obviously culture gets expressed through music, so it shows up there. And I wasn't even specifically talking about lyrics, though they certainly carry a lot of the message. It's more just an entire way of being. I also was not referring to a particular generation, but more a moment in time. If anything, it started with the tail end of my generation, Gen X and disaffected suburban kids who had no real challenges in life other than to complain about their fee fees. But I really don't subscribe to much in the way of generational stereotypes. There's certain commonalities, but they aren't monoliths. Hell I have been fairly out of step with my generation my whole life, yet I embody Gen X stereotypes more than almost anyone I know. It was just a general shift to professional victimhood and letting life happen to you instead of taking ownership of your own life. Proactive vs reactive. It's how a large segment of society related to the world they inhabited. And these people have always existed, hell I have them in my family, but it became very widespread.

I also don't think there was no music from this time period that was good. I think I mentioned in this thread actually Social Distortion put out a great album, Supersuckers did a couple good ones, Dropkick Murphys, Bad Religion. Florence and the Machine put out Lungs in this time period I think? MGMT was starting. And funny enough celeryman mentioned Mumford and Sons, I am not a big Mumford stan, but Little Lion Man is like 180 degrees from what I am talking about. A totally self actualized song. My Chemical Romances cover of Desolation Row is one of my top 5 covers ever. But then again it was written by Dylan.

And as I mentioned there was a change in the mid teens. Isbell and Stapleton really on the scene. Revivalists have been good. I named Broken by lovelytheband already, but I can't name everything clearly these are just some that spring to mind from that time.

 

Also, the 60s folk guys, 

Animal House GIF

 

And I'm 100% sure @Celery Man is reading my take in early aught bands 

Screen_Shot_2020-10-05_at_11.51.58_AM.pn

 

 

Posted

I mostly find that hyper-feely approach very intellectually unstimulating.  I want to hear someone twist the language.  And, I know you're not just talking about words.  But I want to hear Paul Westerberg and Kurt Cobain and and Brandi Carlisle and Jason Isbell and John Lennon manipulate the same fucking 12 notes (words) into something new.  I struggle to appreciate most of what I hear breaking through to the mainstream these days.  But, there is plenty of great stuff out there, it's just a wide world of choices that makes one need to go digging for gold.  It's out there, though.

Tangentially: didn't My Morning Jacket used to rock?  Am I thinking of another band?  If not, wtf happened?

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Posted
1 hour ago, G650 said:

 

And I'm 100% sure @Celery Man is reading my take in early aught bands 

Screen_Shot_2020-10-05_at_11.51.58_AM.pn

 

 

ha, as someone who still has his warped tour all access pass and literally headlined an emo night concert week before last I don't really disagree with you overall. In this thread I'm needling a little bit because it's fun and also because, while I don't disagree with you broadly, I truly don't get the band choices (modest mouse and at the drive in) you've made to illustrate the point. Which, also, totally fine. We covered Modest Mouse - for At The Drive In, I personally don't understand the first fucking thing about what they're saying in the lyrics and while yes I know you said it's not about lyrics, I also don't get where else you have the limp passive thing or the my fees fees thing unless it's because they're wearing girl jeans. Which, fine, but that's one of the cross generational things and is a tale as old as time.

I am about 1000% certain that you could track the rise and fall of mall emo with instances of teen self harm. There were several fucked up toxic things about that genre, one of which was how mental health and generally being fucked up and somehow traumatized got turned into what makes you special and essentially fashion or part of the whole affectation. That stuff is bad, but on the flip side you also have very sick and twisted people (obviously not talking about 650) who use that kind of obvious toxicity to take a completely opposite and evil stance towards mental illness and people who are different than themselves or have had the audacity to face actual obstacles in their lives. I bristle at that because I think we should treat others how we'd like to be treated. Anyways, that's a tangent that's really not related to even this side conversation which is distracting us from the important purpose of this thread.

Also I really don't know anything about Mumford and Sons - before I ever listened to them I got the sense that they sucked and so I never did. But there have been several times I've been tricked into liking his stuff (Ted Lasso theme, Oscar Isaac duet from Llewyn Davis, New Basement Tapes, which also reminds me of Dawes being a band from this category) and so my assumption is that he is actually a super talented guy who has the audacity to make extremely accessible music that girls like. So maybe I'll check out that album.

If you really want to hurt my millennial feelings, tell me that Sufjan is a pussy whose music is bad.

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Posted
7 hours ago, G650 said:

I mean, I don't really consider it generational. It was just prevailing culture for a period of time, I see generally a shift over the past 5 or 10 years, if not back to more aggression, at least less passivity. Probably more nihilism now than anything.

I found out today there’s apparently a neo-grunge movement happening and I am all for it. Very AIC-Soundgarden sounding. The two bands I like so far are Return to Dust and Dark Sun. Apparently one of the drummers (Return to Dust?) is Slash’s kid. 

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Posted
4 minutes ago, Celery Man said:

I am about 1000% certain that you could track the rise and fall of mall emo with instances of teen self harm. There were several fucked up toxic things about that genre, one of which was how mental health and generally being fucked up and somehow traumatized got turned into what makes you special and essentially fashion or part of the whole affectation. That stuff is bad, but on the flip side you also have very sick and twisted people (obviously not talking about 650) who use that kind of obvious toxicity to take a completely opposite and evil stance towards mental illness and people who are different than themselves or have had the audacity to face actual obstacles in their lives. I bristle at that because I think we should treat others how we'd like to be treated. Anyways, that's a tangent that's really not related to even this side conversation which is distracting us from the important purpose of this thread.

 

So actually I think this is part of what I'm talking about, while I think it's symptomatic and not a cause, these things are absolutely other markers of what is going on.

 

6 minutes ago, Celery Man said:

 

If you really want to hurt my millennial feelings, tell me that Sufjan is a pussy whose music is bad.

 

I would never!

 

As far as At the Drive In, the one guitarist was ok and started a pretty decent band, the singer however is a fucking douche canoe and absolute poster child for this shit. Absolute bitch made pussy with the emotional fortitude of an 8 year old.

Posted

a) I assume you're talking about The Mars Volta for the guitarist?

and

b) it's funny, ATDI is a pretty formative post-hardcore band and one I've listened to a fair bit both back in the day and later on up till even now, and they're from Texas as well, and certainly their stage presence was an influence on my little baby band's whole thing, but I don't actually know that much about the guys or even which ones are in Mars Volta or their stances on stuff or etc. But also, one time we were in LA to meet with some labels in that very cool era of "we're definitely going to make it" and saw Cedric sitting alone at Jumbo's Clown Room, right before Justin Long bummed a cigarette in the parking lot. Which was a funny fucking night.

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Posted
4 minutes ago, Celery Man said:

a) I assume you're talking about The Mars Volta for the guitarist?

and

b) it's funny, ATDI is a pretty formative post-hardcore band and one I've listened to a fair bit both back in the day and later on up till even now, and they're from Texas as well, and certainly their stage presence was an influence on my little baby band's whole thing, but I don't actually know that much about the guys or even which ones are in Mars Volta or their stances on stuff or etc. But also, one time we were in LA to meet with some labels in that very cool era of "we're definitely going to make it" and saw Cedric sitting alone at Jumbo's Clown Room, right before Justin Long bummed a cigarette in the parking lot. Which was a funny fucking night.

No, the opposite, Sparta. Jim Ward was his name.

 

I've only just realized I omitted one of the absolute worst offenders. And definitely my generation, Marilyn Manson.

Posted
10 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

I found out today there’s apparently a neo-grunge movement happening and I am all for it. Very AIC-Soundgarden sounding. The two bands I like so far are Return to Dust and Dark Sun. Apparently one of the drummers (Return to Dust?) is Slash’s kid. 

is Wednesday part of this? There's a lot of grunginess to that sound and MJ Lenderman is clearly heavily influence by alternative rock bands of that era

1 minute ago, G650 said:

No, the opposite, Sparta. Jim Ward was his name.

 

I've only just realized I omitted one of the absolute worst offenders. And definitely my generation, Marilyn Manson.

ahh i knew that

Posted
Just now, Celery Man said:

is Wednesday part of this? There's a lot of grunginess to that sound and MJ Lenderman is clearly heavily influence by alternative rock bands of that era

Wednesday is pretty awesome, I've followed them on IG for quite sometime. I'm glad to see them getting exposure finally.

Posted
2 minutes ago, G650 said:

No, the opposite, Sparta. Jim Ward was his name.

 

I've only just realized I omitted one of the absolute worst offenders. And definitely my generation, Marilyn Manson.

Sparta is fucking great. 

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Posted (edited)
59 minutes ago, Celery Man said:

Also I really don't know anything about Mumford and Sons - before I ever listened to them I got the sense that they sucked and so I never did. But there have been several times I've been tricked into liking his stuff (Ted Lasso theme, Oscar Isaac duet from Llewyn Davis, New Basement Tapes, which also reminds me of Dawes being a band from this category) and so my assumption is that he is actually a super talented guy who has the audacity to make extremely accessible music that girls like. So maybe I'll check out that album.

Funny thing about Mumford -- I couldn't stand them (really still can't) but watching "Marcus" fight his way through anxiety on that New Basement Tapes doc really elevated him in my eyes.  Not only did he care, a lot, but he ended up bring the best song, and he wrote it on the last night.

Dawes, I really like.  I know the guy is kind of a weasel, but he embues that LA Jackson Browne vibe more than anyone I've seen since JB.  He's really talented.  Plus, Mandy Moore.

 

Edited by jimmyjazz
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Posted
On 6/3/2025 at 11:35 AM, locodos said:

Everlong > Mr Brightside  Also, I don't care.  Grohl was a legend, he shoulda kept it in his pants.  I've heard some other not nice things about him but IDK if those are true. 

On the other hand Brandon Flowers seems like a decent guy, clean cut guy. Who knows what he's like in real life though. No opinion on the LDS stuff.

Btw - the third page of this thread was not what I was expecting.

 

 

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Posted
1 minute ago, ajax said:

Btw - the third page of this thread was not what I was expecting.

Keep you on your toes around here.

Posted

Drive-By Truckers and The Hold Steady were at the peak of their powers in the early to mid aughts.

Nothing but pummeling riffs and tales of miscreant behavior.  None of the passivity bullshit that absolutely existed in that era (and I say that as someone who graduated HS in 2003 and was already annoyed with it then).

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Posted
2 hours ago, Al_4_ISU said:

Drive-By Truckers and The Hold Steady were at the peak of their powers in the early to mid aughts.

Nothing but pummeling riffs and tales of miscreant behavior.  None of the passivity bullshit that absolutely existed in that era (and I say that as someone who graduated HS in 2003 and was already annoyed with it then).

I just saw DBT touring on Southern Rock Opera.  They put on a hell of a show.  I was waiting for this song, didn't disappoint.

 

2 hours ago, ajax said:

On the other hand Brandon Flowers seems like a decent guy, clean cut guy. Who knows what he's like in real life though. No opinion on the LDS stuff.

Btw - the third page of this thread was not what I was expecting.

 

 

Let's not start comparing invisible friends

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Posted
On 5/28/2025 at 9:34 PM, Gil Bang said:

Dude, you're fast becoming the Derka of the music board.

I think it was way back on shaggy when Derka first wandered into the baseball board and started a Who's The Best 2nd Baseman? thread.  By about the 5th post, it became apparent that the thread was really about how Brandon Phillips was the Best 2nd Baseman and that there would be no dissent allowed in the thread.

This thread eerily parallels that.  

Posted
On 5/28/2025 at 5:35 PM, Sbbruin said:

Is this really a question?  I've got one: Led Zeppelin or Triumph?

Not saying they're better, but if you want to bag on these guys, then we can't be friends.

 

 

Posted
20 minutes ago, Beau Vine said:

Not saying they're better, but if you want to bag on these guys, then we can't be friends.

 

 

I dig me some Triumph.  I just see the spread between Foo and the Killers to be similar to Zep and T

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