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Goo Punch

Give me your top 10 NBA players of all time

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5 hours ago, TommyGufano said:

Scottie was a blown Hubert Davis call away from an ECF in the only non-Jordan EC playoffs of his career. He also played 42 mins/gm for Blazers team that took LA to 7 in WCF.

I don't have strong feelings on Pippen vs Robinson, but I think you're underselling Scottie.

 

 

The Bulls were markedly worse in 94-95 before Jordan came back.  34-31 without Jordan, and 13-4 with him.  That kind of team performance puts Pippen in Mark Price territory.  While that Bulls roster was terrible and not really built for Pippen to lead, it was more or less the same roster from 93-94 so there was considerable regression.

As a 2nd option, Pippen may have been the greatest of all time, but when you talk about the best overall players of all time, you are usually talking about players who spent a lot of years as the best player on their team.  On the Blazers, he was maybe the 4th best player.  That team was pretty stacked.

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18 minutes ago, FondrenRoad said:

The Bulls were markedly worse in 94-95 before Jordan came back.  34-31 without Jordan, and 13-4 with him.  That kind of team performance puts Pippen in Mark Price territory.  While that Bulls roster was terrible and not really built for Pippen to lead, it was more or less the same roster from 93-94 so there was considerable regression.

As a 2nd option, Pippen may have been the greatest of all time, but when you talk about the best overall players of all time, you are usually talking about players who spent a lot of years as the best player on their team.  On the Blazers, he was maybe the 4th best player.  That team was pretty stacked.

Sure. Other than losing their second best player, they were the same team. The regression was considerable; it was more pronounced than when MJ left and it was Scottie-Horace. When your surroundings are bare enough, nobody wins. MJ can spin tales about his baseball body all he wants, but the reason they lost is not because he wasn't still the best player in the world (he was) or out of shape. It was because that team wasn't good enough.

I don't know wtf yall are talking about with the Blazers. Sheed was their best player, but also a historical mental midget who couldn't be relied on. Scottie was 2nd-team all-defense and ran the offense. Maybe 4th best? You're misremembering or arguing in bad faith

 

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36 minutes ago, TommyGufano said:

Sure. Other than losing their second best player, they were the same team. The regression was considerable; it was more pronounced than when MJ left and it was Scottie-Horace. When your surroundings are bare enough, nobody wins. MJ can spin tales about his baseball body all he wants, but the reason they lost is not because he wasn't still the best player in the world (he was) or out of shape. It was because that team wasn't good enough.

I don't know wtf yall are talking about with the Blazers. Sheed was their best player, but also a historical mental midget who couldn't be relied on. Scottie was 2nd-team all-defense and ran the offense. Maybe 4th best? You're misremembering or arguing in bad faith

 

Sorry Mrs. Pippen. Your son was a good player too. 

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Stephen Jackson and Matt Barnes each put Kobe over Duncan on Simmons' pod today. I think Barnes maybe even put Kobe as his personal #2. I disagree with them on Kobe/Duncan, and they seemed to maybe put more emphasis on the Mamba Mentality sort of stuff than I would, but figure it's interesting to hear two of their peers weigh in on the matter (they're both also quite complimentary of TD).

I have a bit of a love/hate relationship with Simmons, but I thought this was a pretty good/interesting convo throughout and would recommend as a listen for ppl who don't already listen to his pod.

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Individually, I would take Kobe for his talent.

Impact as a leader and someone who can carry a franchise, along with his talent;  I would take Timmy.

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Most players take Kobe over Duncan. Most players are horrible at judging talent/greatness too. Duncan should be over Kobe, and it's not even that close. 

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37 minutes ago, CBT said:

Most players take Kobe over Duncan. Most players are horrible at judging talent/greatness too. Duncan should be over Kobe, and it's not even that close. 

yeah this. most players don't have a clue what they're talking about when it comes to this stuff. in the last few days i've heard  current players refer to Kobe as "The GOAT"; saw another one who had him no.2 all time; saw another one who said, "he's the greatest Laker of all time so he has to be the GOAT!". 

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1 hour ago, Iceman said:

hell, he might not even be the 2nd best Laker.

yeah for me he's behind both Magic and Kareem without question. 

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Kobe seems to have the largest variance among the players who make most people’s list.

I have a hard time with guys like Kareem and Dr. J, because while I saw them play, it was at the end of their careers and they were playing with something less than their A game.  I think it influences my opinion of them in a negative way.

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So Kareem faded into the alltime leading scoring spot in the NBA? 6 rings, one with Milwaukee and 5 with LA.  6 MVPs 19X All Star and 10X All-NBA 1st team; 4X Blocks leader, 2X scoring leader, 1X rebounding leader.  hell we all get old...

Dr J was Jordan before Jordan with regard to playing above the rim and shot creation. he also had a considerable portion of his career in the ABA, while being 3X MVP in that league. He won 2 rings in the ABA and one with Philly in the NBA.  he was an 11X allstar and 5X all NBA 1st team.  CSB- he was my favorite player as a kid in the 70's and early 80's.  

 

I never saw Jim Brown play football, but the stats and the testimonials say he was a badass motherfucker, generally regarded as the best RB ever.  At a certain point, you just gotta believe people with regard to Kareem and the Doctor.

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Kareem also got to ride Magic’s coattails at the end of his career (which was awesome for me personally because I loved watching great post play). He’s so underrated it’s criminal, and yet Cap is still in everyone’s top 5. 

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3 hours ago, Iceman said:

So Kareem faded into the alltime leading scoring spot in the NBA? 6 rings, one with Milwaukee and 5 with LA.  6 MVPs 19X All Star and 10X All-NBA 1st team; 4X Blocks leader, 2X scoring leader, 1X rebounding leader.  hell we all get old...

Dr J was Jordan before Jordan with regard to playing above the rim and shot creation. he also had a considerable portion of his career in the ABA, while being 3X MVP in that league. He won 2 rings in the ABA and one with Philly in the NBA.  he was an 11X allstar and 5X all NBA 1st team.  CSB- he was my favorite player as a kid in the 70's and early 80's.  

 

I never saw Jim Brown play football, but the stats and the testimonials say he was a badass motherfucker, generally regarded as the best RB ever.  At a certain point, you just gotta believe people with regard to Kareem and the Doctor.

My point was this:  I never saw Wilt, Russell, Oscar, West, etc. play, so with them I believe the narrative.  I saw Doc and Kareem at the end of their career, and it impairs my ability to just accept the narrative of their career.  And it’s not like they were scrubs.  I saw Kareem win multiple titles with the Lakers, and he was a big part of it, but I never felt like I was watching a top-5 all-time guy.  That was Magic.  I got Dr. J when he wasn’t really doing the above the rim thing anymore, but I did get to watch him sink a half-court shot at the buzzer to beat the Mavs during his last year.  If I had never seen them play, I would just group them in with the other old guys, and accept whatever the accepted hierarchy was.  But I did see them play, and am acknowledging the fact that it probably taints my view of them.

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Posted (edited)

Wasn’t really sure where to put this, but since I think duncan is a top 10 player, I’ll put it here:

he starts talking about it at the 1:10 mark, but it is still a pretty good interview
 
I still think Garnett is a clown (and I’m pretty sure he was one of the few people Duncan legitimately didn’t like) but this was still kinda cool to here him talk about. No idea how old it is.
Edited by youdunnf'dup

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On 4/9/2020 at 2:51 PM, Kermit said:

Oh, the excuses that Jordan-stans offer up for that loss. There are many who refuse to acknowledge he even played that season. 

JFC Kermit.  Stick to bashing Malone.  The excuse that he started hooping a few months before that game?  Couple years off seems like a decent excuse?

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Posted (edited)

Why does it demand an explanation?  Do we hold the Laker losses to the Celtics against Magic?  Is the 83 Sixers Championship held against Bird?

 

Good grief.  There was actually some fucking competition in the league back then.

Edited by Iceman

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1 hour ago, ChiTownDoc said:

JFC Kermit.  Stick to bashing Malone.  The excuse that he started hooping a few months before that game?  Couple years off seems like a decent excuse?

Not for a self-proclaimed deity. 

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42 minutes ago, Kermit said:

Not for a self-proclaimed deity. 

Oh for sure.  I’ve already opined on those mental issues.  From that lens - sure, fair post.  

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Dream vs Shaq is an easy call. If the game is tied in the last few seconds and you coach Shaq's team, you're going to send the double team when Hakeem gets the ball. If you're coaching the other team, you don't have to send the double team to help Dream--you can hope for a steal, block, altered shot, or something from Dream, who is clutch. And then there are free throws and the basketball elegance of Dream over the brute force of Shaq.

To me, Duncan is the toughest Top 10 call. Lots of accolades and accomplishments, and he did make clutch shots--but he missed some clutch free throws. Also, he often took the easier big man defensive assignment, particularly in the playoffs. You almost never saw him guard the best post player all game. Nit-picky, yeah, but we are talking Top 10. And how do you factor the cultural significance of Dr. J?  Anyway, here are my Top 10:

  1. Jordan
  2. Magic
  3. LBJ
  4. Bird
  5. Olajuwon
  6. Kareem
  7. Russell
  8. Wilt
  9. Shaq
  10. Duncan

Dr. J, Oscar, and Kobe are next. I don't think Steph is Top 10 material and KD will have to do a few more things before he works his way up to consideration.

Speaking of Hakeem, the first 3:40 of this video are something else. 

 

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