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Patrick Bateman

2020 NBA Offseason Thread (Abbreviated) -- Draft, Free Agency, Trades, etc

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2 minutes ago, Patrick Bateman said:

Hill was traded because he was leaving..... Sign and trades are still free agency wins.  TMac is arguable but he was a burgeoning star coming off a crazy 2nd half.  He was a fall back position after they tried to appeal to Duncan, but he was at least a star.

Meh, I said they were nits. 

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Alright, here's an offseason question.. MVP odds

Giannis Antetokounmpo +390
Luka Doncic +440
Anthony Davis +700
James Harden +850
Steph Curry +1200
LeBron James +1400
Kawhi Leonard +1600
Kevin Durant +1600
Damian Lillard +2000
Jayson Tatum +2400

 

 

Who you got? Two ways:

- Straight up, who wins?

- Who's the best betting value on the board?

 

This is as wide open of an MVP race as I can remember. After 2x MVPs and post-season failure, Giannis would have to do something historic, else he'll end up with voter fatigue. I can't find a bet that I really like. Maybe Luka? Davis, LeBron, Kawhi are going to have injury and/or planned rest issues. Harden is a known quantity who won't win unless he does something insane. Steph might shoot 18-20x per game on that team and put up ridiculous stats, but I don't think the team will be good enough. Tatum doesn't have the eye-popping stats. 

I think Luka might be the answer to both questions for me, with Lillard as a super dark horse if he somehow carries his bubble shooting back to reality.

Edited by BradInATX

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Wow, kinda surprised Tatum is getting odds and not just part of "the field"     I'm not sure who will win it.     I just know Giannis wont win it.   I dont care what he does, he isnt winning 3 in a row.  Harden won't get another either.

AD/LBJ will more than likely have the same issue KD/Steph did so I think both are out barring crazy seasons.

The more I look at the list, its prolly Luka's to lose barring injury.

Edited by d2o
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This one is more recent and has Luka as the favorite:

https://www.covers.com/nba/nba-mvp-odds

Basically everyone but Luka has at least one flaw that would give you serious pause.

I could see Devin Booker having just absolutely bonkers stats this year with CP3 running point and Ayton's gravity on the interior. But I just don't think Phoenix will be a top 2-3 seed that's necessary to win an MVP. But at +3000, maybe worth a flyer.

Edited by BradInATX
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23 minutes ago, conVINCEd said:

KD is the best value.

I think so too. And has the best ready-made narrative by far. Just not sure he will play enough or get enough minutes to get there. 

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I think so too. And has the best ready-made narrative by far. Just not sure he will play enough or get enough minutes to get there. 

Yeah, I didn't even really consider KD just because I don't imagine he plays more than low 30s minutes the first half of the season. They don't need him putting heavy minutes in to make the playoffs. 30 mpg until the last two weeks, ramp him up into playoff shape.

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10 hours ago, BradInATX said:

 

Agreed on Phoenix. Why do you say Orlando? I honestly don't know much about their roster.

I think NOLA could surprise. I'm basing that purely on the fact that I think Alvin Gentry was a terrible coach and the Pelicans do have some talented players. 

 

Portland, I dunno. I've never liked Enes Kanter as a player. RoCo is a decent piece and helps a bit defensively. I also think you're going to see some of the guys who went nuclear in the bubble come back to earth; Lillard, Jamal Murray, etc. There was something about the bubble that clicked for some guys, maybe lack of crowd behind the basket, who knows. Portland seems to me like they'll be pretty well the same team they have been. High scoring, defensive issues, not enough to get to the WCF.

I disagree on Gentry being a horrible coach, but I wont belabor that point in particular. N.O.'s roster was injury plagued to begin the season. As soon they got their players back they went on a immediate run and played great basketball before the league was shut down due to COVID. And then during the bubble Zion was essentially useless due to missing time due to COVID. I was actually surprised Gentry was let go given his relationship with Griffin (Phoenix) and the season being hampered by injuries. The one season that front office got their shit together he took the team to the western conference semi-finals (after losing Cousins to an achilles inury). He's more or less a victim of coaching for a moribund franchise. And Stan Van Gundy may surprise me, but as a tactician he isn't a coach known for running an movement based, up tempo offense. Hopefully he isn't a poor fit for their roster. I'm genuinely perplexed by Griffin's plan for the franchise. I guess I can understand his lust for draft pics, but moving on from Holiday may stunt the team's growth.  

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I disagree on Gentry being a horrible coach, but I wont belabor that point in particular. N.O.'s roster was injury plagued to begin the season. As soon they got their players back they went on a immediate run and played great basketball before the league was shut down due to COVID. And then during the bubble Zion was essentially useless due to missing time due to COVID. I was actually surprised Gentry was let go given his relationship with Griffin (Phoenix) and the season being hampered by injuries. The one season that front office got their shit together he took the team to the western conference semi-finals (after losing Cousins to an achilles inury). He's more or less a victim of coaching for a moribund franchise. And Stan Van Gundy may surprise me, but as a tactician he isn't a coach known for running an movement based, up tempo offense. Hopefully he isn't a poor fit for their roster. I'm genuinely perplexed by Griffin's plan for the franchise. I guess I can understand his lust for draft pics, but moving on from Holiday may stunt the team's growth.  
A team with AD and Holiday should make the playoffs every year, regardless of what the front office does with the rest of the roster. That's a top 5 and a top 30 player.

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24 minutes ago, BradInATX said:
10 hours ago, Catdaddyhorn said:
I disagree on Gentry being a horrible coach, but I wont belabor that point in particular. N.O.'s roster was injury plagued to begin the season. As soon they got their players back they went on a immediate run and played great basketball before the league was shut down due to COVID. And then during the bubble Zion was essentially useless due to missing time due to COVID. I was actually surprised Gentry was let go given his relationship with Griffin (Phoenix) and the season being hampered by injuries. The one season that front office got their shit together he took the team to the western conference semi-finals (after losing Cousins to an achilles inury). He's more or less a victim of coaching for a moribund franchise. And Stan Van Gundy may surprise me, but as a tactician he isn't a coach known for running an movement based, up tempo offense. Hopefully he isn't a poor fit for their roster. I'm genuinely perplexed by Griffin's plan for the franchise. I guess I can understand his lust for draft pics, but moving on from Holiday may stunt the team's growth.  

A team with AD and Holiday should make the playoffs every year, regardless of what the front office does with the rest of the roster. That's a top 5 and a top 30 player.

Neither of them were consistently healthy and the roster was filled out with G-league level guys most seasons.   That same recipe led to about 25-30 wins for GSW this season

 

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Neither of them were consistently healthy and the roster was filled out with G-league level guys most seasons.   That same recipe led to about 25-30 wins for GSW this season
 
Lol what? Who was the top 5 player on the Warriors?

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7 minutes ago, BradInATX said:
1 hour ago, d2o said:
Neither of them were consistently healthy and the roster was filled out with G-league level guys most seasons.   That same recipe led to about 25-30 wins for GSW this season
 

Lol what? Who was the top 5 player on the Warriors?

Ugh, Steph, who was injured most of the yr which is my point.

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AD averaged like 65 games started per year in NOLA. Curry played 5 last year. What a dishonest point. Hopefully not intentional.

Lol at arguing that Gentry isn't a bad coach. No discipline, let his players get away with chucking and terrible effort and rotations. Tried to run a DAntoni offense without DAntoni players. His teams are fundamentally incapable of running half court sets every year despite having the best big man in the game. Incredibly poor defensive technique by his entire team.

He is terrible.

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1 hour ago, BradInATX said:

AD averaged like 65 games started per year in NOLA. Curry played 5 last year. What a dishonest point. Hopefully not intentional.

Lol at arguing that Gentry isn't a bad coach. No discipline, let his players get away with chucking and terrible effort and rotations. Tried to run a DAntoni offense without DAntoni players. His teams are fundamentally incapable of running half court sets every year despite having the best big man in the game. Incredibly poor defensive technique by his entire team.

He is terrible.
 

And Holiday avg'd less than that.    While the rest of the roster was G-league level most of the seasons.    Just saying that they werent healthy together a whole lot.  So a top 5 guy and top 30 guy that arent healthy much and surrounded by below average talent isnt going to result in many playoff spots particularly in the west.   The one season both were healthy (AD played 75 and Jrue played 81 and had a half season with Boogie) is the season they beat POR in the first round.

No argument on Gentry though.   He's mediocre at best and should be exhibit A when people saying NBA teams are racist in hiring coaches.   hahahahahahahhaha There is no way in hell he should have been an NBA coach for 20 yrs.

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And Holiday avg'd less than that.    While the rest of the roster was G-league level most of the seasons.    Just saying that they werent healthy together a whole lot.  So a top 5 guy and top 30 guy that arent healthy much and surrounded by below average talent isnt going to result in many playoff spots particularly in the west.   The one season both were healthy (AD played 75 and Jrue played 81 and had a half season with Boogie) is the season they beat POR in the first round.
No argument on Gentry though.   He's mediocre at best and should be exhibit A when people saying NBA teams are racist in hiring coaches.   hahahahahahahhaha There is no way in hell he should have been an NBA coach for 20 yrs.
I hear ya. The Pelicans rarely had the full squad together when they tried to put together the Jrue/Evans/AD/Cousins team. That's true while Gentry being terrible also is.

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58 minutes ago, d2o said:

 

I've always loved this kid's skillset since he was back at Michigan.  I've never understood his inability to stick with a team for a defined role. Hopefully the year he spent away in Europe instilled some confidence in him.

  • Hook 'Em 1

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4 hours ago, Catdaddyhorn said:

I've always loved this kid's skillset since he was back at Michigan.  I've never understood his inability to stick with a team for a defined role. Hopefully the year he spent away in Europe instilled some confidence in him.

I liked him too, but he's not a good enough shooter for the NBA given his limitations.

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I'd like to see a breakdown of his 3pt shooting. Most view him as a spot up shooter, but watching him play early on in Philly and Sacramento a lot of his 3pt shooting was off the dribble and while moving off ball screens and handoffs. 

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On 11/25/2020 at 2:56 PM, aggie08 said:

Russ, PG, and Melo tried to form on in OKC. Though your definition of "super team" may vary. Oakland's super team was about as organic as humanly possible. Though, I guess San Fran did help in luring KD away from Oklahoma.

This is a good counter example. RW did convince PG to come over (via trade),¬†but Melo was apparently over the hill.¬†My post was in reply to someone saying ‚Äúsuper teams‚ÄĚ aren‚Äôt a new phenomenon and people are complaining now bc they don‚Äôt like that it‚Äôs the players building them rather than GMs. My point was that when it was front offices assembling ‚Äúsuper teams‚ÄĚ via draft/development, FA (including S&T), and trades, any franchise¬†with good leadership could become a super team. It also seemed many super stars would stay with the teams that drafted them rather than counting down the days until they became a FA.¬†Now it just seems like the star players flock to a couple posh cities and franchises in honkyville USA are fucked unless they draft or trade assets for two or more star players, because they likely won‚Äôt be getting¬†star talent through free agency.¬†

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This is a good counter example. RW did convince PG to come over (via trade),¬†but Melo was apparently over the hill.¬†My post was in reply to someone saying ‚Äúsuper teams‚ÄĚ aren‚Äôt a new phenomenon and people are complaining now bc they don‚Äôt like that it‚Äôs the players building them rather than GMs. My point was that when it was front offices assembling ‚Äúsuper teams‚ÄĚ via draft/development, FA (including S&T), and trades, any franchise¬†with good leadership could become a super team. It also seemed many super stars would stay with the teams that drafted them rather than counting down the days until they became a FA.¬†Now it just seems like the star players flock to a couple posh cities and franchises in honkyville USA are fucked unless they draft or trade assets for two or more star players, because they likely won‚Äôt be getting¬†star talent through free agency.¬†
It definitely feels worse since the Heatles. I'd love to see a time comparison of how many all-nba players play 6+ years with the team that drafted them. The Kawhi/AD/Playoff P moves happening in succession might just be a blip. I hope so.

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11 hours ago, Murfdogg21 said:

This is a good counter example. RW did convince PG to come over (via trade),¬†but Melo was apparently over the hill.¬†My post was in reply to someone saying ‚Äúsuper teams‚ÄĚ aren‚Äôt a new phenomenon and people are complaining now bc they don‚Äôt like that it‚Äôs the players building them rather than GMs. My point was that when it was front offices assembling ‚Äúsuper teams‚ÄĚ via draft/development, FA (including S&T), and trades, any franchise¬†with good leadership could become a super team. It also seemed many super stars would stay with the teams that drafted them rather than counting down the days until they became a FA.¬†Now it just seems like the star players flock to a couple posh cities and franchises in honkyville USA are fucked unless they draft or trade assets for two or more star players, because they likely won‚Äôt be getting¬†star talent through free agency.¬†

Players stayed with teams they were drafted by because the FA rules were different.   Unrestricted free agency didnt even start until 1988.

https://www.nba.com/suns/history/impact-tom-chambers-and-unrestricted-free-agency#

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