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Posted
6 minutes ago, linux said:

"The patriarchy is why you are poor and also your fault!"

This never happens in real life conversations with friends and family. It might not even be good enough to be said by a pink haired feminist character on a failed Adam Carolla exclusive Daily Wire Plus cartoon series.

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Posted
Just now, chainsaw said:

This never happens in real life conversations with friends and family. It might not even be good enough to be said by a pink haired feminist character on a failed Adam Carolla exclusive Daily Wire Plus cartoon series.

I mean I exclaim "fuck the patriarchy" when I'm about to orgasm. seems better than exclaiming "oh god" given that I'm not religious.

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Posted
27 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

The strategy of ceding online spaces entirely is a massive failure. Speak everywhere the opposition is speaking and you'll see how quickly the polling numbers on the issues shift back to something resembling sanity. You can't save the people who take their political cues from sex traffickers and WoW streamers who live in squalor, but you can at least stop the bleeding.

That's what some of the older democrats aren't understanding....you have to stop the fucking bleeding. Do whatever you can to stop the bleeding.

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Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

Then maybe stop trying man.

If you stop trying then you're basically ceding the vote....you're already viewed as failing 18-45 males, you're already viewed as the corporate elitist party, so what do you think democrats should do for that age block for males and females? Democats absolutely are getting their shit pushed in by conservatives on social media platforms and that is a MASSIVE MASSIVE issue that democrats NEED to deal with. 

Edited by BurntOrange&White
Posted
5 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

This never happens in real life conversations with friends and family. It might not even be good enough to be said by a pink haired feminist character on a failed Adam Carolla exclusive Daily Wire Plus cartoon series.

Well thanks to social media friends and family is no longer the limit, but if you are going so far as to call it a strawman you are wrong

Quote

Life in a Time of Food Price Volatility study1 suggests that the majority of men – men on low and precarious incomes – at present enjoy the relatively limited privileges of a patriarchal system, or at least considerably fewer such privileges than they relatively recently believed they held. Further, while the privileges seem somewhat fewer, the burdens appear greater. As such, it appears that theirs is a ‘poor man’s patriarchy’ in two ways. First, a set of norms about male rights and responsibilities sets standards for the lives of men living in or near poverty. Second, both the rights and responsibilities are weakly adhered to in a watered down version of masculinity that revolves around the idea of the male breadwinner or provider

https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/43538369.pdf

What would I say? "two incomes are better than one", but X forbid we ever say the smart thing

Posted
10 minutes ago, troph said:

I mean I exclaim "fuck the patriarchy" when I'm about to orgasm. seems better than exclaiming "oh god" given that I'm not religious.

Do you enunciate patriarchy? What's the tone of the "fuck?" 

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Posted

It'd be cool if that dumbass old bald piece of shit Chuck Schumer would ever show even a little fucking balls. Like maybe asking why Trump is eroding due process and other constitutional rights, why we have been bombing a foreign country without congressional approval, any number of things that might show that the Democrat party has even a little bit of spine.

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Posted
17 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

Then maybe stop trying man.

Eventually I will, but it needs to be said now when it is time to learn.

Posted
Just now, Brian Fantana said:

It'd be cool if that dumbass old bald piece of shit Chuck Schumer would ever show even a little fucking balls. Like maybe asking why Trump is eroding due process and other constitutional rights, why we have been bombing a foreign country without congressional approval, any number of things that might show that the Democrat party has even a little bit of spine.

Schumer and the entire DNC head that is trying to force Hogg out need to fucking go. Their ineffective in this era of politics. 

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Posted

I actually agree with @linux about liberal lingo. I mean I can go on and on and on about how the patriarchy has fucked me over and over and (BO&W) not in a good way. But it doesn't matter, it's tone deaf language except in certain liberal circles. When I'm in women only discussions it's rarely stated but it's well understood and stated more informally what the root cause is. Make no fucking mistake about it, this world would be immensely better off with women running the show, research is pretty clear on that. RBG was right, when will it be enough? When there are 9 women on the Bench. 

But NONE of that matters to poor undereducated men in this country because they are getting a raw deal too.

Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, troph said:

I actually agree with @linux about liberal lingo. I mean I can go on and on and on about how the patriarchy has fucked me over and over and (BO&W) not in a good way. But it doesn't matter, it's tone deaf language except in certain liberal circles. When I'm in women only discussions it's rarely stated but it's well understood and stated more informally what the root cause is. Make no fucking mistake about it, this world would be immensely better off with women running the show, research is pretty clear on that. RBG was right, when will it be enough? When there are 9 women on the Bench. 

But NONE of that matters to poor undereducated men in this country because they are getting a raw deal too.

That's my qualm about talking about this stuff. I come from rural small town and have lived in large cities the second half of my life so I know the average white guy for both areas in the 18-45 year demo pretty well for broad appeal. I'm trying to keep my conversation as simple as possible about the insights into their thoughts and minds in this thread. The key is simplicity in messaging and direct, nobody in that demo gives a fucking about how the markets are doing, they don't give a fuck about celebrity endorsements, etc. I was negged by wildcat for "fascist propaganda" in one post because of that. If you don't want to see in their mindset and how they think then you can literally provide nothing from a campaign POV that will bring them back. Where does the 18-45 year old male have to go in the democratic party that has been telling them for decades that they are not superior and even inferior by certain far left groups. Guys like having ego stroked no matter what....guys need self confidence, guys need to feel needed. 

 

Democratic party at the top is so aloof at majority of their senior leadership because they still operate like this is the 80s, 90s, and 00s. 

Edited by BurntOrange&White
Posted
5 minutes ago, troph said:

I actually agree with @linux about liberal lingo. I mean I can go on and on and on about how the patriarchy has fucked me over and over and (BO&W) not in a good way. But it doesn't matter, it's tone deaf language except in certain liberal circles. When I'm in women only discussions it's rarely stated but it's well understood and stated more informally what the root cause is. Make no fucking mistake about it, this world would be immensely better off with women running the show, research is pretty clear on that. RBG was right, when will it be enough? When there are 9 women on the Bench. 

But NONE of that matters to poor undereducated men in this country because they are getting a raw deal too.

Yeah it is a tragedy that "academic" discussions can do so much political damage, while the ball of lard can say do anything he wants and get away with it.

But to me reason and logic are the singular most important thing to maintain. I don't even think we need to shackled by them either, I don't need 6 sigma proof that we need to adopt populism, what we should never do is to abandon reason and just operate on pure emotion.

 

Posted (edited)
48 minutes ago, linux said:

Actually children rebel against their parents, that is the natural order of things, there has been important progress because old people die and new people are better, would this be the case if the plantation owner managed to download his ideology onto his son? the civil rights movement worked in 1960 but it would have never passed in 1860.

 

 

there is some truth to what you are saying but you are way underestimating how sticky parental religious and political views are on kids.  from Pew:

https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/05/10/most-us-parents-pass-along-their-religion-and-politics-to-their-children/

 

image.thumb.png.aad070086965729f68f54aa47856b5ea.png

 

Over 80% success rate in passing Trumpism (aka Republican views) to their kids.  Same with religion.  Another survey showed it usually sticks through the age surveyed (29 years old).

Edited by troph
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Posted
1 minute ago, linux said:

Yeah it is a tragedy that "academic" discussions can do so much political damage, while the ball of lard can say do anything he wants and get away with it.

But to me reason and logic are the singular most important thing to maintain. I don't even think we need to shackled by them either, I don't need 6 sigma proof that we need to adopt populism, what we should never do is to abandon reason and just operate on pure emotion.

 

you only really get one shot to sell your product to the audience. as a practitioner of the English language and the art of persuasion I get it. 

Posted
12 minutes ago, Pig Bellmont said:

NSIAP - Schumer failing (again) to meet the moment as opposition leader

idiotic, when the bill fails, trump will say see, congress has spoken, I get muh plane!

Posted

Yeah that 15-8% is literally the delta of progress, that is why I do despair about Gen Z, if this cannot be fixed then the system is now 100% broken, they were supposed to be the cavalry, I am leaning more to the camp of starting over.

4 minutes ago, troph said:

there is some truth to what you are saying but you are way underestimating how sticky parental religious and political views are on kids.  from Pew:

https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/05/10/most-us-parents-pass-along-their-religion-and-politics-to-their-children/

 

image.thumb.png.aad070086965729f68f54aa47856b5ea.png

 

Over 80% success rate in passing Trumpism (aka Republican views) to their kids.  Same with religion.  Another survey showed it usually sticks through the age surveyed (29 years old).

.

Posted

If one high up Dem stands in front of a microphone and calls on Schumer to resign, they would immediately be considered a 2028 Dem presidential candidate. This is a meatball, someone just please fucking swing. 

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Posted

In parliementary democracies the underperforming party sacks their leadership, the portuguese left party did just that, but in the US the democrats almost always love to lose because they are never forced to accept the consequences of their actions.

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Posted
50 minutes ago, Pig Bellmont said:

NSIAP - Schumer failing (again) to meet the moment as opposition leader

 

28 minutes ago, Hank Kingsley said:

If one high up Dem stands in front of a microphone and calls on Schumer to resign, they would immediately be considered a 2028 Dem presidential candidate. This is a meatball, someone just please fucking swing. 

I honestly think I hate him more than Trump. I'm not even kidding.

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Posted
1 hour ago, Pig Bellmont said:

NSIAP - Schumer failing (again) to meet the moment as opposition leader

He's just trying to keep it in the news cycle.  At best, if it actually went to a vote, he could get Republican Senators on the record for supporting corruption (as if that would fucking matter). What alternative was the "right" path?

Schumer deserves a lot of shit for a lot of reasons, but I don't think this is one of them.    

 

Posted
2 minutes ago, Tuco said:

He's just trying to keep it in the news cycle.  At best, if it actually went to a vote, he could get Republican Senators on the record for supporting corruption (as if that would fucking matter). What alternative was the "right" path?

Schumer deserves a lot of shit for a lot of reasons, but I don't think this is one of them.    

 

He could get them on record but none of that shit matters and he's too much of a pussy to do anything about having them on record anyway. 

Posted
3 minutes ago, BurntOrange&White said:

He could get them on record but none of that shit matters and he's too much of a pussy to do anything about having them on record anyway. 

Ok, if he wasn't a pussy, what would he do?  A strongly worded attack mailer.   

 

Posted
3 hours ago, linux said:

Actually children rebel against their parents, that is the natural order of things, there has been important progress because old people die and new people are better, would this be the case if the plantation owner managed to download his ideology onto his son? the civil rights movement worked in 1960 but it would have never passed in 1860.

Admitedly there is a repellent on identity politics foundations like hating meritocracy, but at the same time I don't think Gen Z men break for Trump if not for the cultutre war that was waged from around 2010 to 2020, and while the party has started to distance itself from it, they kinda still remain in some subreddits (and no wildcat I am not blaming democrats for what happens outside the party)

As for getting people off their couch we need economic leftism, they are so desperate for it they fall for the fascist conman promising them unobtanium.

Kamala and her GS solution to the housing shortage was aid on down payments which was a drop in the bucket she needed to promote low density public housing. This is how Finland is doing it

Children DO rebel but a large segment of them come back to the ideological fold when they get to adulthood. That's exactly how racism, bigotry, and hatred stay alive my friend.

Posted
3 minutes ago, Thatguy said:

Children DO rebel but a large segment of them come back to the ideological fold when they get to adulthood. That's exactly how racism, bigotry, and hatred stay alive my friend.

Somebody posted the statistics above 7% was the rate of progress, that molasses pace is gone now if things can't be reversed it is too slow to get rid of fascism at this rate so we need to start over and denazify.

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Posted
3 hours ago, troph said:

100%

but doesn't mean you don't get in the mix of the podcast, youtube and whatever else universe and throw some punches and explain your position.

I am all for dunking on the right so you will get no argument from me.

Posted
Just now, Thatguy said:

I am all for dunking on the right so you will get no argument from me.

Gotta create the soundbites that resonate and are easy to post on socials tbh. That's why Hogg, AOC, Crockett, Booker, and some others are the future of the party. They know how to attack the right.

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Posted
7 hours ago, Thatguy said:

Watching you guys go round and round about shit that won't make a fuck is quite entertaining. You aren't saving the sons of Trumpers. Full stop. Quit trying to. All that happens when Dems try and placate to centrists and moderate Republicans is you alienate part of your base. Most of the people sitting out elections are people who voted for change, got nothing, and now threw their hands up and said fuck it. You don't need to dangle a carrot over the fence, you just need proper motivation for the people on our side to get off the couch. Obama proved that.

And then he let Wall Street off the hook. Big mistake.

 

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Posted

Resistance tidbit. Went to the Rangers-Astros game Friday night. Was surprised to see that my bunch was not the only group who declined the invitation to stand and sing God Bless America at the bottom of the 6th.

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Posted
6 hours ago, David Dennison said:

I'm talking about the dearth of prosecutions from the Obama DOJ.

I agree and that is the reason I said that Dems are to blame for the way the American public views politics. In their view a Dem pres was the one who signed the Glass-Steagal reform and a Dem pres who bailed out and allowed Wall St to go free. People also see the bank accounts of these leaders grow exponentially while in office and they feel like they are no different than the Rs. If we could just get rid of that then we would encourage all the apathetic non-voters to get off the couch. 

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Posted
14 hours ago, immamac said:

https://www.youtube.com/clip/Ugkxb-fzUfCo3tJUeJQzhxhSt8XJ9y2nKV7J

click the link, this is a 1 ish minute excerpt that hits home. 

I have no real objection to what he said because where he said it and because I know he stands for equal protection under the law for my people - but if taken at face value it’s simply not true. People absolutely do care who I am, or on the other side “what I am” - if it really didn’t matter I wouldn’t have retained a lawyer to help get our affairs in order to leave the US.

Posted
15 hours ago, linux said:

Actually children rebel against their parents, that is the natural order of things, there has been important progress because old people die and new people are better, would this be the case if the plantation owner managed to download his ideology onto his son? the civil rights movement worked in 1960 but it would have never passed in 1860.

Admitedly there is a repellent on identity politics foundations like hating meritocracy, but at the same time I don't think Gen Z men break for Trump if not for the cultutre war that was waged from around 2010 to 2020, and while the party has started to distance itself from it, they kinda still remain in some subreddits (and no wildcat I am not blaming democrats for what happens outside the party)

As for getting people off their couch we need economic leftism, they are so desperate for it they fall for the fascist conman promising them unobtanium.

Kamala and her GS solution to the housing shortage was aid on down payments which was a drop in the bucket she needed to promote low density public housing. This is how Finland is doing it

 

You aren't winning these kids

 

https://youtu.be/ePbMNq8m7Jw?si=b4X01fF1COalx2cX

Posted
1 hour ago, Thatguy said:

I agree and that is the reason I said that Dems are to blame for the way the American public views politics. In their view a Dem pres was the one who signed the Glass-Steagal reform and a Dem pres who bailed out and allowed Wall St to go free. People also see the bank accounts of these leaders grow exponentially while in office and they feel like they are no different than the Rs. If we could just get rid of that then we would encourage all the apathetic non-voters to get off the couch. 

They're absolutely 100% to blame. Every single time they refused to take action because "the Republicans might do the same in the future" or in the name of decorum or whatever the fuck just pushed us closer and closer to where we are now.

I swear to god every time I have to hear "you can't blame the Democrats for what the Republicans are doing now" I want to throw myself off a tall building because you absolutely can blame them and should for spending decades being enablers while paying lip service to giving a shit about the people.

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Posted
You aren't winning these kids
 


Writing off an entire generation is as useless as the shit Schumer is doing.

Yes, there are kids that are unreachable and make great Comedy Central clips. Those have existed in every generation since the dawn of time. But there’s a fuckton more who are merely voting for the only side that has actually made an effort to court their vote.

They can be won back, but it won’t be accomplished by lumping them together with the truly lost ones.
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Posted (edited)
19 minutes ago, Chuckie Finster said:


Writing off an entire generation is as useless as the shit Schumer is doing.

Yes, there are kids that are unreachable and make great Comedy Central clips. Those have existed in every generation since the dawn of time. But there’s a fuckton more who are merely voting for the only side that has actually made an effort to court their vote.

They can be won back, but it won’t be accomplished by lumping them together with the truly lost ones.

I agree with this, the failed logic with some of the kids is so extreme their current beliefs are extremely vulnerable to change. This is a good thing. As soon as their life circumstances change their politics may too.

However, young men who are all in on violence and bro culture are unlikely to vote dem, ever. That’s not new, even though their unique expression of masculinity appears new. Contrast that with my son who says none of this will really impact him but it’s going to impact those he loves and it makes him sad and makes him want to fight for change. Bro culture men think that’s weak and they are never coming around. It’s in their ethos - no excuses, self reliance, no help from anyone (all of which are convenient lies, everyone gets help).

reality is demographics are changing and the country is fast approaching minority majority.

image.thumb.png.0c286cceff14560613978989a79bad76.png

until a new reality of our plurality settles in, the unrest and upheaval will continue and there’s not a damn thing Dems can really do to stop it, and much like the times of the civil rights era, times during the 1980s municipal ERO battles, you will have whites, especially hetero white men (and their traditional wives) acting out. Only this time we have the echo chamber of the social media algorithm to act as the incendiary device. Add the fact that building an audience is one way to make tons and tons of money (where it wasn’t before) and you have talented people getting into this historical game.

its going to look like we are losing until we are not.

doesn’t mean Dems should just be idiots, and Bernie, Warren, AOC, booker, and others should be the party leadership for sure. The alternate message has to be clear so when it’s time to vote a clear alternative is laid out and compelling.

 But we aren’t stopping this unrest and acting out by conservative men, it’s a clear repeat of history. 

Edited by troph
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Posted
54 minutes ago, Chuckie Finster said:


Writing off an entire generation is as useless as the shit Schumer is doing.

Yes, there are kids that are unreachable and make great Comedy Central clips. Those have existed in every generation since the dawn of time. But there’s a fuckton more who are merely voting for the only side that has actually made an effort to court their vote.

They can be won back, but it won’t be accomplished by lumping them together with the truly lost ones.

The kids in this video were never going to be on our side. You can hear in what they are saying that they are just regurgitating their parents' talking points. Meanwhile there are millions of young ethnic adults that DON'T vote because the government doesn't care about us that we ignore every single election cycle. Those are the young adults we should be going after. When I was a young adult in the 90's when Clinton was championing the 94 crime bill do you think that inspired me to vote? If you couple the apathetic kids with the already liberal leaning kids that is plenty enough to offset the ones in this video.

The mistake the Dems make every cycle is to keep trying to win people back over to their side instead of taking care of their own constituents. Meanwhile the Republicans could give two shits about winning any leftists and just double down on their efforts and come away just fine. We need to quit fucking worrying about what white kids spawned by Republicans care about.

 

Posted
1 hour ago, troph said:

I agree with this, the failed logic with some of the kids is so extreme their current beliefs are extremely vulnerable to change. This is a good thing. As soon as their life circumstances change their politics may too.

However, young men who are all in on violence and bro culture are unlikely to vote dem, ever. That’s not new, even though their unique expression of masculinity appears new. Contrast that with my son who says none of this will really impact him but it’s going to impact those he loves and it makes him sad and makes him want to fight for change. Bro culture men think that’s weak and they are never coming around. It’s in their ethos - no excuses, self reliance, no help from anyone (all of which are convenient lies, everyone gets help).

reality is demographics are changing and the country is fast approaching minority majority.

image.thumb.png.0c286cceff14560613978989a79bad76.png

until a new reality of our plurality settles in, the unrest and upheaval will continue and there’s not a damn thing Dems can really do to stop it, and much like the times of the civil rights era, times during the 1980s municipal ERO battles, you will have whites, especially hetero white men (and their traditional wives) acting out. Only this time we have the echo chamber of the social media algorithm to act as the incendiary device. Add the fact that building an audience is one way to make tons and tons of money (where it wasn’t before) and you have talented people getting into this historical game.

its going to look like we are losing until we are not.

doesn’t mean Dems should just be idiots, and Bernie, Warren, AOC, booker, and others should be the party leadership for sure. The alternate message has to be clear so when it’s time to vote a clear alternative is laid out and compelling.

 But we aren’t stopping this unrest and acting out by conservative men, it’s a clear repeat of history. 

I'm sorry but what the fuck has Corey Booker done to justify him being a core Democratic leader? I could get on board with the rest.

Sorry if I am misreading you.

Posted
1 minute ago, Brian Fantana said:

I'm sorry but what the fuck has Corey Booker done to justify him being a core Democratic leader? I could get on board with the rest.

Sorry if I am misreading you.

He gave a good speech one time and he stood up for 25 hours to fillibuster (checks notes) absolutely nothing. 

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Posted

Man...as someone who was very Republican when I was 18-22 but now haven't voted for a GOP Presidential candidate since Bush, I find it very odd people think the play is to just give up on a generation of young, male voters. 18-22 was very transformative for me as I was finally exposed to a lot of different views at UT which caused me to question my worldview. Some of it was solidified, other parts have shifted drastically. You have to reach people where they are and the Dems are doing a terrible job of that (shocking). 

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Posted
2 minutes ago, LurkingHorn said:

Man...as someone who was very Republican when I was 18-22 but now haven't voted for a GOP Presidential candidate since Bush, I find it very odd people think the play is to just give up on a generation of young, male voters. 18-22 was very transformative for me as I was finally exposed to a lot of different views at UT which caused me to question my worldview. Some of it was solidified, other parts have shifted drastically. You have to reach people where they are and the Dems are doing a terrible job of that (shocking). 

Username not adding up. 

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Posted
17 hours ago, BurntOrange&White said:

If you stop trying then you're basically ceding the vote....you're already viewed as failing 18-45 males, you're already viewed as the corporate elitist party, so what do you think democrats should do for that age block for males and females? Democats absolutely are getting their shit pushed in by conservatives on social media platforms and that is a MASSIVE MASSIVE issue that democrats NEED to deal with. 

Democrats have always sucked at short form messages due to the nature of their platforms and ideas.  Republicans have their messaging down pat: freedom, low taxes, small govt, protect your guns. The Dem messages struggle to resonate in short bursts. It's why more Dems need to go on long form programming. And if they can't handle that type of interview including some tough questions, we should question if we have the right people.

Take Pelosi. I think she was one of the most capable speakers in my lifetime, if not the most capable. But I'm of the opinion that she only speaks with friendly press is because of her and her husband's investments. To my knowledge she never takes questions on it, and that prevents her from going on a neutral or even hostile interview.

Posted
5 minutes ago, LurkingHorn said:

Man...as someone who was very Republican when I was 18-22 but now haven't voted for a GOP Presidential candidate since Bush, I find it very odd people think the play is to just give up on a generation of young, male voters. 18-22 was very transformative for me as I was finally exposed to a lot of different views at UT which caused me to question my worldview. Some of it was solidified, other parts have shifted drastically. You have to reach people where they are and the Dems are doing a terrible job of that (shocking). 

It's incredibly stupid. It reflects the same type of attitude that is currently trying to drum people like David Hogg out of the party.

Establishment Dems care about 3 things: Representing the interests of their corporate hackers, representing the interests of Israel, and getting re-electiled. Until they start being held accountable for the first 2, the 3rd will just keep happening and nothing will change.

The young people that want to break into the party leadership want to do this, and from establishment Dem perspectives, it can't be allowed.

Posted
The kids in this video were never going to be on our side. You can hear in what they are saying that they are just regurgitating their parents' talking points. Meanwhile there are millions of young ethnic adults that DON'T vote because the government doesn't care about us that we ignore every single election cycle. Those are the young adults we should be going after. When I was a young adult in the 90's when Clinton was championing the 94 crime bill do you think that inspired me to vote? If you couple the apathetic kids with the already liberal leaning kids that is plenty enough to offset the ones in this video.
The mistake the Dems make every cycle is to keep trying to win people back over to their side instead of taking care of their own constituents. Meanwhile the Republicans could give two shits about winning any leftists and just double down on their efforts and come away just fine. We need to quit fucking worrying about what white kids spawned by Republicans care about.
 

I think we are largely aligned: you are absolutely correct, Dems should not try and win over the lost souls.

Where we disagree, I think, is I do not agree that every “white kid spawned by Republicans” is a lost soul, nor do I agree that attempting to meet them where they are is a lost cause. If anything, that line of thinking is a self-fulfilling prophecy, as we have seen over the last decade.

Many of them merely just want to felt heard, which only one group is even attempting at this point. And Dems don’t even need to change their messaging: their platform on employment, healthcare, education, etc. is widely popular… they just have to figure out how to effectively get their ideas to that audience.

Honestly, writing them completely off proves that the bullshit they’ve been told about Democrats over the last decade by the bad faith right wing commentators is not all wrong.


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