2018 San Antonio Spurs Offseason Thread -- Into the Great Unknown

[SilasCoade 2,620]

6 hours ago, texasstrong12 said:

1-Name the duos in the West that are better than LMA/DeRozan? Certainly the 3 I listed above. Maybe Butler/KAT but I think KAT is overrated. Lillard/McCollum is alright but don't think it's better than LMA/DeRozan. Gobert/Mitchell is an interesting duo but I think Mitchell is a year or 2 away before they are in this discussion. 

2-People are drastically overvaluing the Lakers. Their roster is meh outside of Lebron. 

3-How did the Spurs get worse by adding an All-Star caliber player? The Spurs had nobody outside of LMA last year that even compares to DeRozan. 

4-I don't think the "top half of the West got better". I would say a lot of teams didn't make improvement or regressed. What was the big move made by any Western Conference team that made the playoffs last year outside of Cousins to the Warriors? The Pelicans adding Randle? 

5-Where I think the West improved is the lower half of the conference. The Nuggets, Lakers, Mavs, Grizzlies and even Suns should all be improved. 

1. You are aware it's 5 on 5? Weird argument.

2. Young talented players get better. Add LeBron and they should get a while lot better.

3. Spurs got worse by getting older. LMA last year was a nice surprise but to expect a big man to keep turning back the clock is silly.

4 and 5. You are probably right. Probably misspoke saying the top half. Better way to say it is no team ahead of spurs last year should be predicted to finish below them this year and several teams below them last year should be expected to gain or surpass them.

 

[EvilCaseMcCoy 684]

23 minutes ago, Llogg said:

2. Young talented players get better. Add LeBron and they should get a while lot better.

3. Spurs got worse by getting older. LMA last year was a nice surprise but to expect a big man to keep turning back the clock is silly.

Young talent also has overinflated stats when they're the only guys getting minutes.  Remember, the Lakers were 30 games behind Houston last year.  They've got a lot of wood to chop in a stacked western conference. 

Your argument against LMA could be applied to Lebron as well, who is about 6 months older and has a lot of wear and tear on his body. 

[Eastwood 4,394]

LMA's style of play is better for longevity in the big-man positions. He's not a bruiser. In other words, he's more Dirk than he is Charles Barkley. I think he has one, maybe two more years of play at the level we saw last year. I'm hoping Lonnie will add a little more weight to him in the meantime. 

[HookEm 2,432]

You can't compare LMA age to LeBron. Bron is an alien.

[EvilCaseMcCoy 684]

So was Vince Carter, until he hit 33.

[Mitch Cumsteen 18,326]

I'm starting to talk myself more into Derozan. I mean, he's probably one of the top 15 - 20 players in the league and arguably a top 3 shooting guard, depending on if you classify James Harden as a point guard or a 2-guard. There's Klay Thompson and Jimmy Butler and then probably Derozan. He's a better player than Bradley Beal and then who else is there? CJ McCullom? Am I missing somebody? Derozan is not chopped liver and by all accounts, he's a perfect Spurs guy for the locker room. After this Kawhi bullshit, they need someone like him.

The thing that worries me most about Derozan is defense. They couldn't get stops last year when they needed them when Green was their primary perimeter defender and Derozan's defense, to be kind, is a step back from even Green's declining play.

And now, on offense, we have a starting backcourt that doesn't shoot 3's with any sort of proficiency or volume. So, they are going to have to play great defense and grind shit out. 

I don't have a great feel for what their record will be, but we need to remember just how terrible they were on the road last year. They got off to a really good start, mostly due to a favorable schedule and the players' familiarity with the system, but they were toothless after about January. I understand the notion that you are what your record says you are, but I don't feel that 47 wins is a realistic barometer on just how good they really were. To me, even though the advanced numbers don't bear it out, they just seemed much closer to a 40 win team than a 50 win team.

That said, let's take a look at the roster:

I hate to say it, but losing Parker is addition by subtraction. He would have just been eating minutes that Murray and White need.

I do think the lingering Kawhi situation wore on the team last year, but it still doesn't account for their atrocious road play. But whatevs, he gone. Don't the door hit ya where Uncle Dennis split ya.

I'm sorry to see Kyle Anderson go, but his loss doesn't move the needle either way.

PG: Murray, Mills-ish, and I think White gets minutes here as well.

SG: Derozan, Walker, Belineli, Manu, (they need his leadership more than ever this year), Forbes, Paul

SF: Gay, Cunningham

PF: Aldridge, Bertans

C : Gasol, Poeltl

That's 15 and doesn't include #Metu, who I think finds a roster sport. They need his size. Poeltl, who is everybody's least favorite of Toronto's young assets, actually fills a fairly large need. They haven't had much shot blocking presence since Dewayne Dedmon mysteriously got benched in the playoffs against the Warriors and then promptly departed. Assuming Manu comes back and since they resigned Forbes, I imagine Paul is on the way out. I think they have a team option on him that comes due August 1 so if there isn't a Manu announcement before then, we might get an indication of what his intentions are based on what happens with Paul. Of course, they could just let him go either way. 

[Eastwood 4,394]

I'm just spitballing and throwing shit out there, but... With Becky being moved to the front row, could we possibly see Manu retire and possibly fill a staff role? If he still has enough gas in the tank, I obviously want him to play, but this would be a way for him to contribute and save what is left of his body. He is a coach on the court and his basketball IQ is insanely high.

[Patrick Bateman 3,851]

Zach Lowe's analysis of the trade.  He hits some of the points I've been trying to argue more succinctly.  He reviews both teams and likes the trade for Toronto.  Isn't a fan for the Spurs, although somewhat understands.

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/24128608/zach-lowe-kawhi-leonard-trade-spurs-raptors-nba

Quote

This is an unsatisfying end to a bitter saga for the Spurs -- one that still flummoxes people within the team. It remains unclear exactly when they lost Leonard, or why the relationship grew so toxic. Leonard certainly has not verbalized his reasoning.

It annoyed some in Leonard's camp that the Spurs had him wait for a max contract after the 2014 Finals to keep cap space free for the following summer, but Leonard understood the logic and appeared to accept it, sources familiar with the matter say.

Team and player disagreed on the nature of Leonard's leg injury, and the best course of treatment. That happens. It should not fracture an essential relationship. Some combination of things did, and now Leonard is in the North.

DeRozan as a centerpiece is a disappointing return, but also one that reflects market realities. Gregg Popovich does not want to finish his career in a rebuild. The Spurs never showed interest in packages -- including Boston's -- heavy on picks and unproven players, sources have said. The Celtics would not swap any of their core guys, including Jaylen Brown, perhaps the most interesting Leonard trade chip in the league, without some assurances about Leonard's health and future plans, sources have said.

Philadelphia's potential package of Robert Covington, Dario Saric, and the Heat's unprotected 2021 pick didn't move the needle. It's unclear if the Spurs had interest in Markelle Fultz; the two sides never discussed him seriously, and the Sixers would not have parted with him, sources say. The Spurs made it clear any deal with Philly would require Ben Simmons or Joel Embiid (likely Simmons), and the Sixers weren't going anywhere near that, league sources say.

Talks with Boston and Philly stalled weeks ago. There was no frenzied last call Monday or Tuesday. San Antonio over the past four days lowered its asking price with a few other potential Leonard teams, according to sources around the league, but it was hard to build any realistic deal.

DeRozan will keep the Spurs relevant in the playoff race. They won 47 games last year without Leonard, juggling a hodgepodge roster. You know they will find a way to at least approach 50 this season, even if DeRozan and LaMarcus Aldridge jack 40 midrange jumpers per game between them. Those guys grind out regular-season wins. Pair them with good coaching and smart team defense, and the Spurs will be in almost every game.

But this is a blah long-term play -- one of the first times having a coach installed as the top decision-maker might have hurt San Antonio. Without Leonard, a rebuild is coming. This move only delays it. DeRozan is an All-Star, but not a franchise star who alone forestalls a downslope.

It's tempting to suggest the Spurs could eventually flip DeRozan for the sorts of assets that would trigger a proper rebuild, but he doesn't carry that sort of trade value. (DeRozan's role in this trade does not indicate much about his league-wide trade cachet. This is a unique set of circumstances involving a seller with zero leverage.)

It's possible Boston, Philly, and other teams loaded with picks weren't offering their best ones -- including the juicy 2019 Kings pick the Sixers and Celtics have divided like a summer timeshare. But a franchise with different priorities could have bid those sorts of teams against each other, and come out with an interesting collection of future assets.

He's reporting we didn't fully engage with Philly unless they were going to add Simmons in the deal (WTF?).  Only way we could have done that (and it was a shot in the dark) was if Lebron went to Philly and demanded Kawhi come with him.  Looking at some the other reports, this definitely feels personal.  Pop/RC seemed determined to send him East and weren't entertaining the best deal for the future but the best deal for now.

In the end, he nails it.  The trade keeps us playoff relevant but only delays the inevitable tear down and rebuild for a couple of years unless someone like Lonnie Walker blows up like Kawhi did and becomes a top 10 player.   So the last page is folks arguing if we'll win 42 games or 48 games.  Maybe we'll get to 50.  Okay, but the playoffs are going to blow.  And now with over 30 million committed to our Kawhi bounty, it's going to be extremely difficult to make enough room to better ourselves in free agency unless we move 2-3 majorly shitty contracts.  Perhaps, RC and Pop can pull a rabbit out of the proverbial hat.  They've sort of done it before...... but never, ever without Tim Duncan.  

[Kermit 3,081]

I’ve been a fan of mediocre teams before (see Texas Football) so this transition won’t be difficult. At least tickets will be easier to get and possibly cheaper. I feel like they’ll surprise some people and give Pop a couple of years to make the playoffs. It’s a Warriors league anyway, so playing for second is all they had, even with a healthy Nephew. The rebuild will happen soon enough, so I’ll just enjoy the few remaining seasons that Pop has left.

[miguelito 11,060]

I heard that season ticket sales are down about $2 mil due to people waiting to see what would happen.  That might have been a spitball number, but sales have been down regardless.

[Dbeasy 14,733]

More moves before the season is likely. We are guard heavy and size light.

[EvilCaseMcCoy 684]

1 minute ago, miguelito said:

I heard that season ticket sales are down about $2 mil due to people waiting to see what would happen.  That might have been a spitball number, but sales have been down regardless.

I thought that was because of Pop's stance on Trump #cloakroom

[Gut Wagon 8,017]

I think we did well, all things considered. Short of a generational player (the kind we were just forced to dump, after amazingly managing to catch lightning in a bottle in 2011), we aren't going to rebuild into another monster squad any time soon. Could be a decade or more, in fact. Until/unless SA suddenly becomes the chic center of basketball culture (unlikely) and thus is a hot market for FA talent, we'll probably go back to wandering in the wilderness of mediocrity. But I do hold out hope that as Pop rides into the sunset, the next coach (Becky?) will revitalize things and keep the franchise respectable. For most of my life the franchise had no titles, so I suspect I'll be OK with fondly looking at banners until our turn comes around again. 

Edited July 19, 2018 by Gut Wagon

[Amos Moses 795]

More post mortem analysis, but this article seemed to nail it for me:

https://theathletic.com/436793/2018/07/18/leroux-what-the-kawhi-leonard-trade-means-for-the-raptors-the-spurs-and-his-other-suitors/

Quote

The trade for the Spurs

For years now, the Dallas Mavericks have been in a holding pattern of sorts as franchise cornerstone Dirk Nowitzki ages while staying in the league. Worse than expected regular seasons have given Dallas’ front office the opportunity to draft intriguing young prospects the last two years, but their other summer moves have focused more on veterans good enough to help the team stay viable with Nowitzki around, from Wes Matthews’ big contract in 2015 to DeAndre Jordan this offseason.

It was hard to see this clearly before now but the Spurs committed to a remarkably similar holding pattern around their franchise cornerstone: Gregg Popovich.

They signed veteran power forward LaMarcus Aldridge the year before Tim Duncan retired and their decisions since that time have been a mix of adding in veterans who fit well with Popovich, such as Pau Gasol, Rudy Gay and Marco Belinelli. They combined those additions with overpaying aging Spurs Patty Mills and Gasol in 2017.

There is also an understandable rationale with that approach as one of the best coaches in NBA history will turn 70 during the upcoming season and is reportedly looking toward retirement in the next few years. San Antonio has engineered a truly remarkable run through excellent coaching, a remarkably strong culture and a beautiful meshing of star talent with capable role players. But their recent decisions have eroded the talent level and fit sufficiently to threaten that amazingly consistent success.

While there is a logic to the front office’s approach, it makes complete sense that going after aging veterans who fit with that “Spurs” ideal instead of building a modern, competitive team would rub Leonard the wrong way. Going big when the league is going small is not seen as zigging while everyone else is zagging for anyone other than San Antonio. It is more akin to buying up an obsolete product on the off chance it becomes fashionable again down the line.

That deliberate obsolescence is encapsulated beautifully in what the Spurs front office chose to receive in return for Leonard. DeRozan is certainly a talented player who deserved All-NBA consideration after putting together his best season at age 28. He can help key a successful offense as a high volume scorer who punishes teams through drawing fouls, and he deserves credit for doubling his three-point attempt rate even if doing so put him closer to where he should have been the whole time than as a part of the league’s vanguard.

DeRozan will make the Spurs better in the immediate and it must be noted that they just made the playoffs with a top-five defense essentially without Leonard, a testament to San Antonio’s coaching, system and talent.

That said, DeRozan will not do much to elevate his new team beyond a postseason appearance and first-round exit as he consistently struggles against superior competition. Moreover, the West is absolutely loaded with perimeter defenders who give him trouble. We have also seen DeRozan’s defensive limitations come into clearer focus during the playoffs as opponents realize how aggressively they can attack him. Being in San Antonio may change that dynamic but the general contours will likely be the same.

***

The Spurs will still be competitive and exceedingly well coached but the window of championship contention seems awfully narrow for a long, long time unless and until they get another superstar.

 

[C-Man 26,535]

Zach Lowe's analysis of the trade.  He hits some of the points I've been trying to argue more succinctly.  He reviews both teams and likes the trade for Toronto.  Isn't a fan for the Spurs, although somewhat understands.
http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/24128608/zach-lowe-kawhi-leonard-trade-spurs-raptors-nba

This is an unsatisfying end to a bitter saga for the Spurs -- one that still flummoxes people within the team. It remains unclear exactly when they lost Leonard, or why the relationship grew so toxic. Leonard certainly has not verbalized his reasoning.

It annoyed some in Leonard's camp that the Spurs had him wait for a max contract after the 2014 Finals to keep cap space free for the following summer, but Leonard understood the logic and appeared to accept it, sources familiar with the matter say.

Team and player disagreed on the nature of Leonard's leg injury, and the best course of treatment. That happens. It should not fracture an essential relationship. Some combination of things did, and now Leonard is in the North.

DeRozan as a centerpiece is a disappointing return, but also one that reflects market realities. Gregg Popovich does not want to finish his career in a rebuild. The Spurs never showed interest in packages -- including Boston's -- heavy on picks and unproven players, sources have said. The Celtics would not swap any of their core guys, including Jaylen Brown, perhaps the most interesting Leonard trade chip in the league, without some assurances about Leonard's health and future plans, sources have said.

Philadelphia's potential package of Robert Covington, Dario Saric, and the Heat's unprotected 2021 pick didn't move the needle. It's unclear if the Spurs had interest in Markelle Fultz; the two sides never discussed him seriously, and the Sixers would not have parted with him, sources say. The Spurs made it clear any deal with Philly would require Ben Simmons or Joel Embiid (likely Simmons), and the Sixers weren't going anywhere near that, league sources say.

Talks with Boston and Philly stalled weeks ago. There was no frenzied last call Monday or Tuesday. San Antonio over the past four days lowered its asking price with a few other potential Leonard teams, according to sources around the league, but it was hard to build any realistic deal.

DeRozan will keep the Spurs relevant in the playoff race. They won 47 games last year without Leonard, juggling a hodgepodge roster. You know they will find a way to at least approach 50 this season, even if DeRozan and LaMarcus Aldridge jack 40 midrange jumpers per game between them. Those guys grind out regular-season wins. Pair them with good coaching and smart team defense, and the Spurs will be in almost every game.

But this is a blah long-term play -- one of the first times having a coach installed as the top decision-maker might have hurt San Antonio. Without Leonard, a rebuild is coming. This move only delays it. DeRozan is an All-Star, but not a franchise star who alone forestalls a downslope.

It's tempting to suggest the Spurs could eventually flip DeRozan for the sorts of assets that would trigger a proper rebuild, but he doesn't carry that sort of trade value. (DeRozan's role in this trade does not indicate much about his league-wide trade cachet. This is a unique set of circumstances involving a seller with zero leverage.)

It's possible Boston, Philly, and other teams loaded with picks weren't offering their best ones -- including the juicy 2019 Kings pick the Sixers and Celtics have divided like a summer timeshare. But a franchise with different priorities could have bid those sorts of teams against each other, and come out with an interesting collection of future assets.

He's reporting we didn't fully engage with Philly unless they were going to add Simmons in the deal (WTF?).  Only way we could have done that (and it was a shot in the dark) was if Lebron went to Philly and demanded Kawhi come with him.  Looking at some the other reports, this definitely feels personal.  Pop/RC seemed determined to send him East and weren't entertaining the best deal for the future but the best deal for now.
In the end, he nails it.  The trade keeps us playoff relevant but only delays the inevitable tear down and rebuild for a couple of years unless someone like Lonnie Walker blows up like Kawhi did and becomes a top 10 player.   So the last page is folks arguing if we'll win 42 games or 48 games.  Maybe we'll get to 50.  Okay, but the playoffs are going to blow.  And now with over 30 million committed to our Kawhi bounty, it's going to be extremely difficult to make enough room to better ourselves in free agency unless we move 2-3 majorly shitty contracts.  Perhaps, RC and Pop can pull a rabbit out of the proverbial hat.  They've sort of done it before...... but never, ever without Tim Duncan.  


Well, we did draft George Hill late 1st round and develop him to where we could flip him for the #15 pick where we took Kawhi. Jazz got Mitchell around that spot. It can happen.

[Patrick Bateman 3,851]

1 minute ago, Amos Moses said:

More post mortem analysis, but this article seemed to nail it for me:

https://theathletic.com/436793/2018/07/18/leroux-what-the-kawhi-leonard-trade-means-for-the-raptors-the-spurs-and-his-other-suitors/

 

Pretty much aligns with Lowe's analysis.  It'll keep us in the playoff conversation but the most likely outcome is one and done's.  I was hoping Pop/RC would really want to leave the house loaded and in order and that meant a rebuild or reload of some kind or to some level.  Instead, it looks like we're going to just play it out as we quietly slide back into mediocrity and ride into the sunset without making another real run.  Help us Lonnie Walker, you're our only help.

[Amos Moses 795]

Agree - but this article made me realize I never really thought of Pop as the part of all the success (among Duncan, Parker, and Manu) that would be the "hanger on" delaying the inevitable reset.    

[EvilCaseMcCoy 684]

37 minutes ago, Amos Moses said:

until they get another superstar.

Come on Dejounte!!

[NoRagrets 1,120]

1 hour ago, Amos Moses said:

More post mortem analysis, but this article seemed to nail it for me:

https://theathletic.com/436793/2018/07/18/leroux-what-the-kawhi-leonard-trade-means-for-the-raptors-the-spurs-and-his-other-suitors/

 

Nonsense.

they were a zaza dirty play away from having a good shot at winning another title in 2017, imo. PATFO constructed a team with two badasses in Aldridge and Leonard. Leonard went awol and they got a great trade given circumstances. This trade gives them a chance to be really good in the future with a core of dejante/white, derozen/Lonnie, gay, LA, and poetl as your core. Cue the "but they'll never beat the warriors" Whiney pants posters. No one will. But in a few years we'll have a great team of young talent mixed with solid veterans.

 

love this trade. Love pop. Love the Spurs. F the haters.

[Amos Moses 795]

What's nonsense?  You seem to have missed the point.  The trade was fine if you view it from the perspective of why the Spurs agreed to deal with Toronto as opposed to other teams offering picks/young assets only.  What happened in 2017 has nothing to do with this trade and why it was made.  Sorry.  "In a few years" or "in the future" neither LMA or DeRozan will be able to carry a team and Pop will be retired.  

This is all about Pop.  The trade removes from his worries a huge headache and distraction of nephew's "group" and allows the Spurs to stay competitive while he closes out his coaching career.  Again, you never know what happens with this group but the window is really small.  Spurs fans should just try to accept it for that, IMO.

 

[Eskimohorn 5,544]

Nonsense.
they were a zaza dirty play away from having a good shot at winning another title in 2017, imo. PATFO constructed a team with two badasses in Aldridge and Leonard. Leonard went awol and they got a great trade given circumstances. This trade gives them a chance to be really good in the future with a core of dejante/white, derozen/Lonnie, gay, LA, and poetl as your core. Cue the "but they'll never beat the warriors" Whiney pants posters. No one will. But in a few years we'll have a great team of young talent mixed with solid veterans.
 
love this trade. Love pop. Love the Spurs. F the haters.

I very much like the tread water approach to the drown and hope to be reborn Sixers rebuild approach. Durant, Zaza, then Kawhi totally sabotaged the Spurs rebuild. None of which could have been controlled by the Spurs.

With respect to Kawhi and Spurs narrative, it’s clear to me that Kawhi’s camp had an agenda to get him to Cali. Any chance he doesn’t will be due to Kawhi distancing himself from relatives.

Any fan wanting a complete rebuild is nuts. This team has a chance to fight deep into the playoffs. This trade permitted the Spurs to have a much higher ceiling than before.

Now call me when the old guys break down and the young guys struggle. Then you get a rebuild.

[Patrick Bateman 3,851]

1 minute ago, Eskimohorn said:

 

I very much like the tread water approach to the drown and hope to be reborn Sixers rebuild approach. Durant, Zaza, then Kawhi totally sabotaged the Spurs rebuild. None of which could have been controlled by the Spurs.

With respect to Kawhi and Spurs narrative, it’s clear to me that Kawhi’s camp had an agenda to get him to Cali. Any chance he doesn’t will be due to Kawhi distancing himself from relatives.

Any fan wanting a complete rebuild is nuts. This team has a chance to fight deep into the playoffs. This trade permitted the Spurs to have a much higher ceiling than before.

Now call me when the old guys break down and the young guys struggle. Then you get a rebuild.

 

What's the ceiling in your mind?  And how long does that ceiling exist?

 

Edited July 19, 2018 by Patrick Bateman

[NoRagrets 1,120]

54 minutes ago, Eskimohorn said:

 

I very much like the tread water approach to the drown and hope to be reborn Sixers rebuild approach. Durant, Zaza, then Kawhi totally sabotaged the Spurs rebuild. None of which could have been controlled by the Spurs.

With respect to Kawhi and Spurs narrative, it’s clear to me that Kawhi’s camp had an agenda to get him to Cali. Any chance he doesn’t will be due to Kawhi distancing himself from relatives.

Any fan wanting a complete rebuild is nuts. This team has a chance to fight deep into the playoffs. This trade permitted the Spurs to have a much higher ceiling than before.

Now call me when the old guys break down and the young guys struggle. Then you get a rebuild.

 

Bingo

that article incenuated that Spurs have been placating pop for years and are continuing to do so. What they are actuallly doing is maintaining the best run franchise in all of sports by putting the pieces together to win now and in the future.

i'd also like remind the masses that our Spurs almost won a championship with a broken down Duncan and Baby Kawhi (nothing near what he would become) in 2013 and then did when it with an even more broken down Duncan and a rising star Kawhi.

Anything is possible!

[Kermit 3,081]

I wish I could sunshine pump, but this team will be lucky to win 55 and is probably a second round out. Of course, this is without having seen them play. Maybe Tony leaving is a boon (I mean he was done last season, so I don’t know how White can be any worse). Maybe Pop is able to assist in Demarr’s shot selection and defense. Maybe Manu comes back. Maybe the rookies get some shine. Who knows? All I know is barring a horrible injury or series of them, the Warriors are winning and Nephew going to the Lakers isn’t going to change that outcome. If it’s inevitable, just relax and enjoy it.

[Patrick Bateman 3,851]

4 hours ago, Mitch Cumsteen said:

I'm starting to talk myself more into Derozan. I mean, he's probably one of the top 15 - 20 players in the league and arguably a top 3 shooting guard, depending on if you classify James Harden as a point guard or a 2-guard. There's Klay Thompson and Jimmy Butler and then probably Derozan. He's a better player than Bradley Beal and then who else is there? CJ McCullom? Am I missing somebody? Derozan is not chopped liver and by all accounts, he's a perfect Spurs guy for the locker room. After this Kawhi bullshit, they need someone like him.

The thing that worries me most about Derozan is defense. They couldn't get stops last year when they needed them when Green was their primary perimeter defender and Derozan's defense, to be kind, is a step back from even Green's declining play.

And now, on offense, we have a starting backcourt that doesn't shoot 3's with any sort of proficiency or volume. So, they are going to have to play great defense and grind shit out. 

I don't have a great feel for what their record will be, but we need to remember just how terrible they were on the road last year. They got off to a really good start, mostly due to a favorable schedule and the players' familiarity with the system, but they were toothless after about January. I understand the notion that you are what your record says you are, but I don't feel that 47 wins is a realistic barometer on just how good they really were. To me, even though the advanced numbers don't bear it out, they just seemed much closer to a 40 win team than a 50 win team.

That said, let's take a look at the roster:

I hate to say it, but losing Parker is addition by subtraction. He would have just been eating minutes that Murray and White need.

I do think the lingering Kawhi situation wore on the team last year, but it still doesn't account for their atrocious road play. But whatevs, he gone. Don't the door hit ya where Uncle Dennis split ya.

I'm sorry to see Kyle Anderson go, but his loss doesn't move the needle either way.

PG: Murray, Mills-ish, and I think White gets minutes here as well.

SG: Derozan, Walker, Belineli, Manu, (they need his leadership more than ever this year), Forbes, Paul

SF: Gay, Cunningham

PF: Aldridge, Bertans

C : Gasol, Poeltl

That's 15 and doesn't include #Metu, who I think finds a roster sport. They need his size. Poeltl, who is everybody's least favorite of Toronto's young assets, actually fills a fairly large need. They haven't had much shot blocking presence since Dewayne Dedmon mysteriously got benched in the playoffs against the Warriors and then promptly departed. Assuming Manu comes back and since they resigned Forbes, I imagine Paul is on the way out. I think they have a team option on him that comes due August 1 so if there isn't a Manu announcement before then, we might get an indication of what his intentions are based on what happens with Paul. Of course, they could just let him go either way. 

I think Metu will get a 2 way contract and start in Austin.  I think we're holding a spot for Manu but could be wrong.  I like Poeltl.  He's a good player who plays within his skill set.  He's a huge improvement on King No Block.  Protects the rim.  Rebounds.  5 foot and in.  He has a good basketball IQ.  He's a nice bench player.  DeMar is a big step down from Kawhi, but he's a big improvement on Danny, especially offensively.  A guy who can get his own shot and has turned into a very willing passer.  The roster is a bit of mystery right now in how you approach playing time.

I think we'll see a lot of lineups which may not make sense from a name perspective.  Example:  Starting lineup by name and resume' probably would look like this...

Murray, DeMar, Gay, LMA, and Pau

Defensively, this would make some sense too.  However, it would be extremely difficult to trot that team out in today's game b/c of the lack of 3 point shooting.  Last year (career):

Murray -- 26.5% (31.6)

DeRozan -- 31% (28.9)

Rudy -- 31.4% (34.3)

LMA -- 29.3% (28.8)

Pau -- 35.8% (36.6)

Ouch.  It's probably not a good thing when your 38 year old center is the best distance shooter on the floor.  Therefore, I actually think we may end up matching up Marco with this group and have Rudy come off the bench.  We may even start someone like Davis vs some teams dependent on matchups and bring Pau off the bench.  You lose some defense but gain shooting and spacing on the floor.  So maybe something like this....

Murray, DD, Marco, LMA, Pau/Davis

Patty, Manu, Lonnie, Gay, Jakob/Davis

Fill in:  White (bums me out), Cunningham, and Forbes.

As usual, we're pretty deep..... we simply lack top tier talent now.  Even our best players (DeMar and LMA) are more 2nd tier stars.  Guys probably more like top 25-40 overall players.  We should do well in the regular season but when rotations get short and superstars start playing 36+ minutes in the playoffs, we'll be a little weak.  

It was always going to be a transitional year b/c of some of the contracts and shipping off Faking Injuries.

[Welch 635]

4 hours ago, Patrick Bateman said:

Pretty much aligns with Lowe's analysis.  It'll keep us in the playoff conversation but the most likely outcome is one and done's.  I was hoping Pop/RC would really want to leave the house loaded and in order and that meant a rebuild or reload of some kind or to some level.  Instead, it looks like we're going to just play it out as we quietly slide back into mediocrity and ride into the sunset without making another real run.  Help us Lonnie Walker, you're our only help.

 

How are we defining mediocrity?

I’m not sure the Spurs have been mediocre for as long as I can remember.  They were awful in the mid-late ‘80s which allowed them to get Robinson, then won 56 games in ‘89-‘90 and arguably haven’t been mediocre since then.

Or are you saying we’ll be quietly sliding back to ‘90s Spurs basketball, always good but never a title contender?

[Patrick Bateman 3,851]

28 minutes ago, Welch said:

 

How are we defining mediocrity?

I’m not sure the Spurs have been mediocre for as long as I can remember.  They were awful in the mid-late ‘80s which allowed them to get Robinson, then won 56 games in ‘89-‘90 and arguably haven’t been mediocre since then.

Or are you saying we’ll be quietly sliding back to ‘90s Spurs basketball, always good but never a title contender?

Probably somewhere between the mid 80's and mid 90's..... probably playing for bottom 4 playoff seedings or just missing the playoffs (probably because of injuries).  Today's NBA is so much different than past decades though, in things can change quickly and you can change tact with one or two moves (as we unfortunately just found out).  If somehow we found takers for Patty and Pau's contracts within the next year without having to give up too much and taking back no salary then we may be able to do some things although we'd still have to trade out some of our core to afford a true difference maker.  But the mid 80's is the last time we didn't have a future HOF, top 20 caliber player on the roster (Still had Iceman but he on the severe backside).  Even after Tim's prime, he was a fairly amazing and efficient player who's defense was still elite until maybe his last season.  I

Two other times since then were when we tanked and got Timmy and last year.....  

Another thought.... I hope Pop isn't his surly self about rookies this year.  Really want to see how our young guys (Lonnie, White, maybe even Metu) can develop with some meaningful minutes.  That may be the most fun this season..... and if Manu comes back.

 

[BradInATX 9,208]

Y'all crazy. We lost three average to below average players and a guy that didn't play last year and added a top 25 guy, a good prospect, and a pick. We win 50+ next year.

 

Sure, it's not going to matter because the Warriors are going to blow everyone out of the water, but there's nothing the spurs could have reasonably done about that. Enjoy the ride, another winning season and playoff run, and save the concern trolling for what the hell we're going to do when the GOAT coach decides to retire. Because then we're a bottom 5 free agent destination with an owner that won't go deep into the tax, sans the best coach of all time.

 

Just enjoy this shit. In 4 years we'll miss 47 wins. Have fun while its here. Cant wait to watch our boy LMA continue his renaissance and Demar, Rudy, DJ and Lonnie be the most athletic spurs team we've had in awhile.

 

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

 

 

 

 

 

 

[NoRagrets 1,120]

1 minute ago, BradInATX said:

Y'all crazy. We lost three average to below average players and a guy that didn't play last year and added a top 25 guy, a good prospect, and a pick. We win 50+ next year.

Sure, it's not going to matter because the Warriors are going to blow everyone out of the water, but there's nothing the spurs could have reasonably done about that. Enjoy the ride, another winning season and playoff run, and save the concern trolling for what the hell we're going to do when the GOAT coach decides to retire. Because then we're a bottom 5 free agent destination with an owner that won't go deep into the tax, sans the best coach of all time.

Just enjoy this shit.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
 

Preach.

Listened to bill Simmons podcast dedicated to this trade. They love derozan and consider him top15 player in the league.

[ZanTheFan 49]

Forget where I saw this angle - hell it might even have been on this thread - but I liked it:

 

Given that Kawhi missed all of last season, it's almost as though they traded Danny for DeMar, Poetl, and the pick.

 

Viewed through that lens, it's tasty AF

 

 

[Michael Knight 12,662]

This trade will look better once Kawhi never plays again

[Gut Wagon 8,017]

1 hour ago, ZanTheFan said:

Forget where I saw this angle - hell it might even have been on this thread - but I liked it:

 

Given that Kawhi missed all of last season, it's almost as though they traded Danny for DeMar, Poetl, and the pick.

 

Viewed through that lens, it's tasty AF

 

 

That thought had occurred to me. Makes it much more palatable, no doubt. 

And then, there’s this: Roll the tape back to 2011. Team was just spinning its wheels. The Big Three were starting to slow down a bit (or a lot). We drafted some raw kid  whose J we hoped Chip could make halfway serviceable. Suddenly...without first tanking...we started on a sharp upward trajectory. Two years later, we should have won a title. A year after that, we did one...in large part due to that 2011 pick that blossomed out of nowhere. To me, the most satisfying Spurs crown since 1999. 

Another homegrown team with great young firepower soon came along to make many people forget the SA resurgence. And it’s easy to see why...especially with that 2011 pick’s bizarre departure. But if we’re realistic in appraising 2011-now as a single block of team history, I think it’s easy to see we’re playing with house money. We turned a #15 pick into yet another title and now, seven years later, one of the league's better scorers. And again, while remaining relevant. That’s amazing and gratifying, no matter what’s next.

[Patrick Bateman 3,851]

1 hour ago, ZanTheFan said:

Forget where I saw this angle - hell it might even have been on this thread - but I liked it:

 

Given that Kawhi missed all of last season, it's almost as though they traded Danny for DeMar, Poetl, and the pick.

 

Viewed through that lens, it's tasty AF

 

 

Unfortunately, that would be an obtuse angle.....

[texasstrong12 4,668]

10 hours ago, longhornmatt said:

Sacramento, Minnesota, the Clippers, the Knicks and countless other franchises have proven you can just suck for a really long time in spite of how many picks and young assets you accumulate.  

That's because this approach fails much more than it succeeds. This board puts way too much faith in young "assets and picks".

Some of this board seems to think that going through a "rebuild process" automatically = success. More than likely it will fail if we ever get to that process. That's just how this goes. 

 

 

Edited July 20, 2018 by texasstrong12

[texasstrong12 4,668]

17 hours ago, HookEm said:

They also lost Parker, Anderson, and Green.

 

These 3 players aren't even in the same league as DeRozan. I think some of this board for whatever reason doesn't know how good DeRozan is. Yes, he's struggled in the playoffs but he's a top 25 caliber player at worst. 

These 3 are role players (2 of which are declining). The NBA is now a league defined by rosters with "stars". DeRozan is much closer to being a "star", if not already, than those 3 players. 

I really like Anderson but it's odd people are upset over losing Parker and Green. 

[texasstrong12 4,668]

16 hours ago, Llogg said:

1. You are aware it's 5 on 5? Weird argument.

2. Young talented players get better. Add LeBron and they should get a while lot better.

3. Spurs got worse by getting older. LMA last year was a nice surprise but to expect a big man to keep turning back the clock is silly.

4 and 5. You are probably right. Probably misspoke saying the top half. Better way to say it is no team ahead of spurs last year should be predicted to finish below them this year and several teams below them last year should be expected to gain or surpass them.

 

1-It was just a hypothetical discussion. 

2-"Young talented players get better". Yeah and the Lakers young talented players need to get much better. They haven't even sniffed the playoffs prior to Lebron.  I don't know why people think the young players from a roster that's finished 30 games and 12 games under .500 the past 2 years is just going to magically improve to a great supporting cast for Lebron. They will definitely improve with Lebron but people are overvaluing the Lakers young core. They're 2 to 4 years away to even being at a point where people can evaluate what type of NBA players they really are. 

3-We're still old in some spots but definitely got younger in other areas. Specifically at the 1 and 2 we're much younger with Murray, White, Forbes and DeRozan likely getting a chunk of minutes with Parker and Green gone. I also bet Poeltl gets a lot more minutes at the 5 than people are expecting. 

Also, how can you be high on the Lakers but use LMA as an argument against the Spurs because of age? LMA and Lebron are the same age and Lebron has played a billion more minutes.

 

 

 

[PilotsError 2,234]

I feel better after listening to the Simmons podcast.

[texasstrong12 4,668]

This entire thread is so true. People (especially NBA twitter) have no clue how to differentiate between tiers of good players. In NBA twitter/online forum world 2nd and 3rd tier players = trash. 

Edited July 20, 2018 by texasstrong12

[texasstrong12 4,668]

 

Edited July 20, 2018 by texasstrong12

[EvilCaseMcCoy 684]

Wife has already transformed her bobblehead.  The future is bright!

[Chad 1,728]

I'll admit I didn't know much about Poeltl before the trade, but after reading about him I'm anxious to see what he can do. He's a very good defender who should fit in well and continue to grow. He's never going to be an offensive juggernaut, but he'll eventually anchor the defense and is more than just a shot blocker. The 1st rounder the Spurs acquired can also be used to dangle as bait towards a package to dump Gasol or Mills. Gasol's 16 million yearly in particular  is an obstacle towards making any moves, I'm still scratching my head over that  contract he was awarded which allegedly was going to be a team friendly deal and Poeltl's acquisition makes him expendable.

[Patrick Bateman 3,851]

13 minutes ago, Chad said:

I'll admit I didn't know much about Poeltl before the trade, but after reading about him I'm anxious to see what he can do. He's a very good defender who should fit in well and continue to grow. He's never going to be an offensive juggernaut, but he'll eventually anchor the defense and is more than just a shot blocker. The 1st rounder the Spurs acquired can also be used to dangle as bait towards a package to dump Gasol or Mills. Gasol's 16 million yearly in particular  is an obstacle towards making any moves, I'm still scratching my head over that  contract he was awarded which allegedly was going to be a team friendly deal and Poeltl's acquisition makes him expendable.

Gasol's deal for next year is only partially guaranteed for 6.7 million, that's the good news.  The bad news is the deadline is July 1st, the opening day of free agency so it doesn't allow the Spurs time to find a team who may want to take on his number.  Therefore, we probably need to move him at some point during the season or our only option may be to waive him and stretch his guaranteed portion.  Patty's deal will be the most costly to move because of the length.  

Gasol was given almost 23 million because he agreed to opt out the summer of 2017 so we would have space to chase Chris Paul.  After Paul asked to go to Houston, we rewarded him with more guaranteed money for being a team player.  It's Dick Jefferson part deux.

 

[kingkoopa6 8,263]

Poeltl plays like Timmy's later later years.. me likey

[HookEm 2,432]

You aren't allowed to compare black and white players. Try again.

[chainsaw 9,440]

If Lonnie gels and Murray continues improving, the Spurs definitely make the playoffs.  This trade is much better than sending Kawhi to the Lakers.  I can live with it.  It sucks having to adjust my expectations from title contending to putting up a respectable record, but at least it won't be boring.

[Mitch Cumsteen 18,326]

17 hours ago, Gut Wagon said:

That thought had occurred to me. Makes it much more palatable, no doubt. 

And then, there’s this: Roll the tape back to 2011. Team was just spinning its wheels. The Big Three were starting to slow down a bit (or a lot). We drafted some raw kid  whose J we hoped Chip could make halfway serviceable. Suddenly...without first tanking...we started on a sharp upward trajectory. Two years later, we should have won a title. A year after that, we did one...in large part due to that 2011 pick that blossomed out of nowhere. To me, the most satisfying Spurs crown since 1999. 

Another homegrown team with great young firepower soon came along to make many people forget the SA resurgence. And it’s easy to see why...especially with that 2011 pick’s bizarre departure. But if we’re realistic in appraising 2011-now as a single block of team history, I think it’s easy to see we’re playing with house money. We turned a #15 pick into yet another title and now, seven years later, one of the league's better scorers. And again, while remaining relevant. That’s amazing and gratifying, no matter what’s next.

I feel like we've been playing with house money since 1999. I never thought I would see one banner, much less five.

[C-Man 26,535]

10 minutes ago, Mitch Cumsteen said:

I feel like we've been playing with house money since 1999. I never thought I would see one banner, much less five.

[Patrick Bateman 3,851]

 

[Dbeasy 14,733]

I don’t like the arrangement of vowels and consonants in Poeltl’s name, therefore I’m not going to like him.

[Gut Wagon 8,017]

33 minutes ago, Dbeasy said:

I don’t like the arrangement of vowels and consonants in Poeltl’s name, therefore I’m not going to like him.

User name checketh not out.