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Critical Race Theory policy in hiring at UT


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3 minutes ago, TurkeyChew said:

My only point was that in modern times today, the majority of folks aren't racist against BIPOCs as they were in the past. Today it has more to do with class than color.

And again, society disagrees. Black folks are denied on mortgages at demonstrably higher rates when everything is equivalent EXCEPT race. There was ample discussion of it in this very thread. Black folks are targeted by police officers, and often times victimized by cops for no reason but being black in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Individuals may not be racist, but the systems and mechanisms we use every day certainly still carry that bias.

5 minutes ago, TurkeyChew said:

And to your last point; I don't even know what you are trying to say other than use your political hammer because all problems look like political nails.

And my point is that it's NOT that easy to just make more money. In this country if you're poor, you're fucked. Our entire fiscal policy is geared to help billionaires and cut away incrementally more of the social safety net. It's all policy that's been advanced by you and your party. It's pulling the ladder up after yourself and eating the seed stock.

Hourly wage earners are being ground into dust by this country and dont have the same access to opportunities that you or I do to actually improve ones self and make a better future.

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49 minutes ago, Captainant said:

And again, society disagrees. Black folks are denied on mortgages at demonstrably higher rates when everything is equivalent EXCEPT race. There was ample discussion of it in this very thread. Black folks are targeted by police officers, and often times victimized by cops for no reason but being black in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Individuals may not be racist, but the systems and mechanisms we use every day certainly still carry that bias.

And my point is that it's NOT that easy to just make more money. In this country if you're poor, you're fucked. Our entire fiscal policy is geared to help billionaires and cut away incrementally more of the social safety net. It's all policy that's been advanced by you and your party. It's pulling the ladder up after yourself and eating the seed stock.

Hourly wage earners are being ground into dust by this country and dont have the same access to opportunities that you or I do to actually improve ones self and make a better future.

Appreciate the response.

My entire point (I guess you can call it, my thesis) for two pages now has been that we are focused on the wrong -ism. We don't have a racism problem, we have a classism problem. If you address the classism, the "racism" as you see it will naturally fall away.

To your first point: why are black folks denied mortgages higher than others? Is it because people view them as inferior based on their skin and biology? I would argue no. Is it because they believe that despite their income and earnings, they will deploy behaviors associated with the poor which would be undesirable and/or bad investments? That discrimination then would be based off social standing and class more than race. Rich black people aren't denied mortgages. Middle class black people are.

While I don't agree with your last point, I appreciate it and your beliefs. I think your last point is actually digging deeper and if one were to align with your way of thinking economically and politically and you wanted to label the Republican party, ultimately it's more appropriate to label the Republican party "Classist" than "Racist".

Edited by TurkeyChew
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1 minute ago, TurkeyChew said:

Appreciate the response.

My entire point (I guess you can call it, my thesis) for two pages now has been that we are focused on the wrong -ism. We don't have a racism problem, we have a classism problem. If you address the classism, the "racism" as you see it will naturally fall away.

To your first point: why are black folks denied mortgages higher than others? Is it because people view them as inferior based on their skin and biology? I would argue no. Is it because they believe that despite their income and earnings, they will deploy behaviors associated with the poor which would be undesirable and/or bad investments? That discrimination then would be based off social standing and class more than race. Rich black people aren't denied mortgages. Middle class black people are.

While I ultimately don't agree with your last point, I appreciate it and your beliefs. I think your last point is actually digging deeper and if one were to align with your way of thinking economically and politically and you wanted to label the Republican party, ultimately it's more appropriate to label the Republican party "Classist" than "Racist".

Some of that is true, in terms of a classism problem.

But, as pointed out, there are discriminations against against blacks that are not explained statistically.  At some point, someone used "black" as an heuristic to devalue their homes on appraisals and to deny them mortgages when the objective evidence is that the black borrower is every bit as creditworthy as the white.

Moreover, "reclassifying the problem" as something other than race denies the fact that race has been a problem for most of the existence of this country, and still hangs on as a problem to the present day.

I don't think we can ever overcome the problem if we continue to deny its existence, or whitewash it away with other explanations.

And that is the fundamental problem with this anti-CRT horseshit.

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Rich black people ARE denied mortgages from time to time.

Poor black people ARE subjected to more discrimination than poor white people more often than not.  If "racism" isn't at the root of these two issues, then I'd like to know what is, because it isn't "classism", despite what BirdBaccy would have us believe.

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Just now, TwiceHorn said:

Some of that is true, in terms of a classism problem.

But, as pointed out, there are discriminations against against blacks that are not explained statistically.  At some point, someone used "black" as an heuristic to devalue their homes on appraisals and to deny them mortgages when the objective evidence is that the black borrower is every bit as creditworthy as the white.

Moreover, "reclassifying the problem" as something other than race denies the fact that race has been a problem for most of the existence of this country, and still hangs on as a problem to the present day.

I don't think we can ever overcome the problem if we continue to deny its existence, or whitewash it away with other explanations.

And that is the fundamental problem with this anti-CRT horseshit.

I addressed the first point already as a discrimination and prejudice against a stereotype on behavior.

For the bolded point: That's not what is happening. I know for my part, I've stated now no fewer than 6 times, that racism is ugly, real, and employed as a violent mechanism to rationalize inhumane violence upon dark skinned people. Admitting racism in America existed at scale should be table stakes for anyone and learning about it should be in scope. It's history.

 

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12 minutes ago, TurkeyChew said:

I addressed the first point already as a discrimination and prejudice against a stereotype on behavior.

For the bolded point: That's not what is happening. I know for my part, I've stated now no fewer than 6 times, that racism is ugly, real, and employed as a violent mechanism to rationalize inhumane violence upon dark skinned people. Admitting racism in America existed at scale should be table stakes for anyone and learning about it should be in scope. It's history.

 

It is happening. There is an attempt to whitewash the current level of systemic and institutional racism that still exists.

Edited by David Dennison
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7 hours ago, TurkeyChew said:

Appreciate the response.

My entire point (I guess you can call it, my thesis) for two pages now has been that we are focused on the wrong -ism. We don't have a racism problem, we have a classism problem. If you address the classism, the "racism" as you see it will naturally fall away.

To your first point: why are black folks denied mortgages higher than others? Is it because people view them as inferior based on their skin and biology? I would argue no. Is it because they believe that despite their income and earnings, they will deploy behaviors associated with the poor which would be undesirable and/or bad investments? That discrimination then would be based off social standing and class more than race. Rich black people aren't denied mortgages. Middle class black people are.

While I don't agree with your last point, I appreciate it and your beliefs. I think your last point is actually digging deeper and if one were to align with your way of thinking economically and politically and you wanted to label the Republican party, ultimately it's more appropriate to label the Republican party "Classist" than "Racist".

Did you hear the one about Oprah’s shopping sprees in Paris and Zurich?

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4 hours ago, VRHorn said:

https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2022-wells-fargo-black-home-loan-refinancing/

Black engineer with 800 credit score denied a refi by Wells Fargo. This story is ancient though - it was 3 whole weeks ago. I know the world is much different now.

Engineer with 800 credit score = middle class. Middle class black people get discriminated against and assumed they have poor people behaviors, has been the point the entire time. It's nasty, but that doesn't surprise me.

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3 hours ago, Satchel said:

Did you hear the one about Oprah’s shopping sprees in Paris and Zurich?

I googled it. I think you are joking around, but in the off-chance you aren't, three points: 1) We specified many times, racism in America, not abroad and 2) nothing more blatantly classist then being snobby to someone at a high end posh shop and saying you are too poor to look at a bag, it's pretty on the nose classism, and 3) there seems to be some he-said/she-said to this: https://www.cnn.com/2013/08/13/showbiz/oprah-winfrey-racism-switzerland/index.html

Asked to give her version of the incident, Adriana said Winfrey had come into the store and was looking at bags when her eye was caught by a $38,000 crocodile skin number by Tom Ford.

She told the newspaper, “I explained that this was exactly the same bag as the one I had in my hand. Only much more expensive. I would happily show her other bags, I said.”

Adriana said Winfrey’s claim that she told the media mogul the bag was too expensive for her was absolutely not true.

“That’s absurd. I would never say such a thing to a customer. Absolutely not. Good manners and politeness are everything in this shop,” she said.

The store assistant added that she hadn’t recognized Winfrey but that it would not have made a difference in any case. “We make a huge effort to treat everyone with the same respect and in the same way,” she said.

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1 minute ago, TurkeyChew said:

Engineer with 800 credit score = middle class. Middle class black people get discriminated against and assumed they have poor people behaviors, has been the point the entire time. It's nasty, but that doesn't surprise me.

What are poor people behaviors? Does Oprah have them?

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, Satchel said:

What are poor people behaviors? Does Oprah have them?

I wouldn't think she would; I'm sure we would have heard about them. Behaviors associated with poor people with respect to classism and what drives discrimination and prejudice are mostly negative and mostly in opposition to what the hegemonic class holds up as ideal. They are negative stereotypes that serve to "other" and make villains of the poor in an "us vs. them" that even extends to the aspirational (e.g. ladder climbing ambitious poor identifying or otherwise acting as if they belong to a higher social status):

Antisocial behavior, loud, improper, messy, sloppy, vulgar, impolite, unhygienic/unclean, lazy, poor work ethic, victim-mentality, irresponsible, unreliable, etc. et al.

Edited by TurkeyChew
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3 minutes ago, TurkeyChew said:

I wouldn't think she would; I'm sure we would have heard about them. Behaviors associated with poor people with respect to classism and what drives discrimination and prejudice are mostly negative and mostly in opposition to what the hegemonic class holds up as ideal. They are negative stereotypes that serve to "other" and make villains of the poor in an "us vs. them" that even extends to the aspirational (e.g. ladder climbing ambitious poor identifying or otherwise acting as if they belong to a higher social status):

Antisocial behavior, loud, improper, messy, sloppy, vulgar, impolite, unhygienic/unclean, lazy, poor work ethic, victim-mentality, irresponsible, unreliable, etc. et al.

Thanks. So, did you hear the one about Oprah’s shopping sprees in Paris and Zurich?

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2 minutes ago, Satchel said:

Thanks. So, did you hear the one about Oprah’s shopping sprees in Paris and Zurich?

This is obviously a joke or a bit you are doing and I don't get it. I'm sorry. Are you agreeing with me?

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6 minutes ago, TurkeyChew said:

This is obviously a joke or a bit you are doing and I don't get it. I'm sorry. Are you agreeing with me?

It’s not a bit. Oprah is one of the richest women in the world. She was rebuffed in haute couture fashion houses in Rome, Paris and Zurich and I’m pretty sure it wasn’t because of her poor people behaviors.

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Posted (edited)
21 minutes ago, Satchel said:

It’s not a bit. Oprah is one of the richest women in the world. She was rebuffed in haute couture fashion houses in Rome, Paris and Zurich and I’m pretty sure it wasn’t because of her poor people behaviors.

Again. Slower this time.

1) For two pages we made pained efforts to specify American racism. You keep wanting to highlight an alleged European incident.

2) There is literally not an example more classist than someone rebuffing someone else because of an assumption of not being wealthy enough to afford something, especially in high end haute couture fashion houses. There is a reasonable expectation and assumption knowing this that a black or a white person looking drab and not otherwise signaling wealth would be, allegedly, treated as not an appropriate patron who could purchase hyper-expensive accessories.

3) This incident may not even be true and it might be fake news. It's, at the very least disputed, and unproven.

Surely this is a bit.

Edited by TurkeyChew
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12 minutes ago, TurkeyChew said:

Again. Slower this time.

1) For two pages we made pained efforts to specify American racism. You keep wanting to highlight an alleged European incident.

2) There is literally not an example more classist than someone rebuffing someone else because of an assumption of not being wealthy enough to afford something, especially in high end haute couture fashion houses. There is a reasonable expectation and assumption knowing this that a black or a white person looking drab and not otherwise signaling wealth would be, allegedly, treated as not an appropriate patron who could purchase hyper-expensive accessories.

3) This incident may not even be true and it might be fake news. It's, at the very least disputed, and unproven.

Surely this is a bit.

Ooooh! You want the good stuff. My bad. Let’s start here: 

 

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Posted (edited)
38 minutes ago, Satchel said:

It’s not a bit. Oprah is one of the richest women in the world. She was rebuffed in haute couture fashion houses in Rome, Paris and Zurich and I’m pretty sure it wasn’t because of her poor people behaviors.

Well, it was because they assumed she might act like or be a poor because  . . . wait for it  . . . she was black.

Which is the entire point.

It wasn't because she looked "drab."  

Edited by TwiceHorn
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3 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Well, it was because they assumed she might act like or be a poor because  . . . wait for it  . . . she was black.

Which is the entire point.

It wasn't because she looked "drab."  

The article made a point to say she was not wearing any jewelry, diamonds, high end shoes or any other short-cut that signals wealth. That would seem to imply that there were indicators people look for that drive employees and buying power assumptions, no? 

Wait did you even read the article before commenting? lol

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There’s a lot of this kinda crap:

Dr. Fatima Cody Stanford is a doctor at Massachusetts General Hospital and an instructor at Harvard Medical School. She was questioned by two flight attendants when she began helping a passenger in distress on a Delta plane.

Poor people behaviors? 

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This is Dr. Tamika Cross:

I raised my hand to grab her [the flight attendant’s] attention. She said to me, ‘oh no sweetie put ur hand down, we are looking for actual physicians or nurses or some type of medical personnel, we don’t have time to talk to you,’ I tried to inform her that I was a physician, but I was continually cut off by condescending remarks,” she recalled.

The flight attendant proceeded to push Dr. Cross, even going as far as asking for proof of her diploma. Soon after, a white man intervened and shared with the flight crew that he was a doctor.”

More poor people behaviors?

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12 hours ago, TurkeyChew said:

Engineer with 800 credit score = middle class. Middle class black people get discriminated against and assumed they have poor people behaviors, has been the point the entire time. It's nasty, but that doesn't surprise me.

Dude it's like you're trying to tell us the sky is purple. Open your fucking eyes. Handwaving away discrimination against a black person because they are assumed to "have poor people behaviors" is just a fucking dogwhistle so you can avoid the thought of racism still existing.

It's the same fucking reason that republicans like you pull your crotch goblins from the OPRESSIVE and OVERLY POLITICAL public school system and hide them away in a private bubble where you can control the narrative and perpetuate your waking lie. And when very fine people like you can't do that because you're too poor to keep your kids out of public schools, you instead ban the books from libraries and fucking burn them. [you == the run of the mill republican]

 

Just fucking acknowledge that racial profiling still is alive and well. Please. If we can't fucking agree that it exists, we're never going to do a goddamn thing about it. We're going to forever go in this loop of the right intentionally mischaracterizing and demonizing buzzwords, which is never really critically examined, but nonetheless treated as indelible truth by chuds, who then storm school board meetings. Congrats on your success.

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3 minutes ago, Captainant said:

Dude it's like you're trying to tell us the sky is purple. Open your fucking eyes. Handwaving away discrimination against a black person because they are assumed to "have poor people behaviors" is just a fucking dogwhistle so you can avoid the thought of racism still existing.

It's the same fucking reason that republicans like you pull your crotch goblins from the OPRESSIVE and OVERLY POLITICAL public school system and hide them away in a private bubble where you can control the narrative and perpetuate your waking lie. And when very fine people like you can't do that because you're too poor to keep your kids out of public schools, you instead ban the books from libraries and fucking burn them. [you == the run of the mill republican]

 

Just fucking acknowledge that racial profiling still is alive and well. Please. If we can't fucking agree that it exists, we're never going to do a goddamn thing about it. We're going to forever go in this loop of the right intentionally mischaracterizing and demonizing buzzwords, which is never really critically examined, but nonetheless treated as indelible truth by chuds, who then storm school board meetings. Congrats on your success.

That's pretty clearly what he wants.

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39 minutes ago, Captainant said:

Dude it's like you're trying to tell us the sky is purple. Open your fucking eyes. Handwaving away discrimination against a black person because they are assumed to "have poor people behaviors" is just a fucking dogwhistle so you can avoid the thought of racism still existing.

It's the same fucking reason that republicans like you pull your crotch goblins from the OPRESSIVE and OVERLY POLITICAL public school system and hide them away in a private bubble where you can control the narrative and perpetuate your waking lie. And when very fine people like you can't do that because you're too poor to keep your kids out of public schools, you instead ban the books from libraries and fucking burn them. [you == the run of the mill republican]

 

Just fucking acknowledge that racial profiling still is alive and well. Please. If we can't fucking agree that it exists, we're never going to do a goddamn thing about it. We're going to forever go in this loop of the right intentionally mischaracterizing and demonizing buzzwords, which is never really critically examined, but nonetheless treated as indelible truth by chuds, who then storm school board meetings. Congrats on your success.

Racial profiling absolutely still exists.

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2 hours ago, TurkeyChew said:

Racial profiling absolutely still exists.

Since you’ve already identified the kind of behaviors seen in the Popeyes employees, it might be helpful if you named the behavior exhibited by the customer:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10654815/Man-threatens-lynch-black-employee-calls-N-word.html

'I'm white - that means I'm automatically better than you': Man threatens to lynch black Popeyes employee and calls her the n-word in racist rant in Florida

  • A viral video captured the moment a white man went on a racist rant against black employees at a Popeyes in Okeechobee, Florida
  • The man claimed the black employee called him a 'cracker,' but when the manager asked what he said to her, the man admits he called her the N-word
  • He goes on a racist tirade as the employee fires back at him
  • The man then threatens to beat the woman and hang her from a tree
  • As he leaves the store, he yells that he's white and 'automatically' better than her
  • Popeyes officials said they're providing support for the franchise and reviewing how to help employees deal with negative customers
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1 minute ago, Satchel said:

Since you’ve already identified the kind of behaviors seen in the Popeyes employees, it might be helpful if you named the behavior exhibited by the customer:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10654815/Man-threatens-lynch-black-employee-calls-N-word.html

'I'm white - that means I'm automatically better than you': Man threatens to lynch black Popeyes employee and calls her the n-word in racist rant in Florida

  • A viral video captured the moment a white man went on a racist rant against black employees at a Popeyes in Okeechobee, Florida
  • The man claimed the black employee called him a 'cracker,' but when the manager asked what he said to her, the man admits he called her the N-word
  • He goes on a racist tirade as the employee fires back at him
  • The man then threatens to beat the woman and hang her from a tree
  • As he leaves the store, he yells that he's white and 'automatically' better than her
  • Popeyes officials said they're providing support for the franchise and reviewing how to help employees deal with negative customers

I guess you couldn't tell by my ignoring your onesy twosy bits of news where racism, like the above, is abhorrently at forefront of some weird incident. 

I've stated that racism exists. I know that there are racist people among us that believe by virtue of being white they are automatically better. 

Pointing out one-off incidents among a nation of 330mm people and then acting as if that is the macro and overarching norm is so foolish I hadn't felt the need to respond. Of course this will always exist to some degree. I never negated the existence of this type of racism when I said that today America has generally moved on from this type of racism (white skin = automatically better than black because you are an inferior subspecies and race) and moved to a more social/class prejudice and discrimination.

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6 minutes ago, TurkeyChew said:

I never negated the existence of this type of racism when I said that today America has generally moved on from this type of racism (white skin = automatically better than black because you are an inferior subspecies and race) and moved to a more social/class prejudice and discrimination.

You are getting nixon-pilled if you think it's really about social/class prejudice and not actually racial prejudice. Roger Stone and Paul Manafort have been selling that schtick to aggrieved whites since the Civil and Voting Rights Acts were passed. 

Open your eyes, listen to something besides what your reagan-era education.

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1 minute ago, Captainant said:

You are getting nixon-pilled if you think it's really about social/class prejudice and not actually racial prejudice. Roger Stone and Paul Manafort have been selling that schtick to aggrieved whites since the Civil and Voting Rights Acts were passed. 

Open your eyes, listen to something besides what your reagan-era education.

I don't know what to tell you, I just don't see it. I don't see it that way in my lived experiences and in my community, workplace or place of worship, etc.

I'm not saying you are wrong-- I actually generally appreciate your perspectives though I mostly disagree-- but maybe I just am not in the space to understand this as you do. And that's about I guess all we can say about this topic, at least as far as I'm concerned. I'll recuse myself now.

Peace be with you all.

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22 minutes ago, TurkeyChew said:

I guess you couldn't tell by my ignoring your onesy twosy bits of news where racism, like the above, is abhorrently at forefront of some weird incident. 

I've stated that racism exists. I know that there are racist people among us that believe by virtue of being white they are automatically better. 

Pointing out one-off incidents among a nation of 330mm people and then acting as if that is the macro and overarching norm is so foolish I hadn't felt the need to respond. Of course this will always exist to some degree. I never negated the existence of this type of racism when I said that today America has generally moved on from this type of racism (white skin = automatically better than black because you are an inferior subspecies and race) and moved to a more social/class prejudice and discrimination.

You have yet to provide support for your poor people behavior theory. Can you pinpoint the seminal moment that marked an end to the type of racism from which America has moved on?

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, Satchel said:

You have yet to provide support for your poor people behavior theory. 

Why would he need to? Either way his argument is still because people are racist against Black people. If it's because people assume they have "poor people behavior" that's just as racist as any other theory. 

 

The fact he doesn't equate the two is the stunning or possibly disingenuous part.

Edited by SimonBolivar
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Just now, SimonBolivar said:

Why would he need to? Either way his argument is still because people are racist again Black people. If its because people assume they have "poor people behavior" it's just as racist as any other theory. 

Yeah for fucking real. Let's double click on that framing as set up by Chrispy: why are the black folks more likely to be assumed to "have poor people behavior" than the white folks? Must be one of them co-inky-dinks I guess, and has absolutely nothing to do with racism that is still inherent to some institutions and groups of people.

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2 minutes ago, SimonBolivar said:

Why would he need to? Either way his argument is still because people are racist again Black people. If its because people assume they have "poor people behavior" it's just as racist as any other theory. 

True, but the whole point of engaging in the Socratic method is to help us come to grips with the contradictions in our arguments.

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15 minutes ago, Captainant said:

Yeah for fucking real. Let's double click on that framing as set up by Chrispy: why are the black folks more likely to be assumed to "have poor people behavior" than the white folks? Must be one of them co-inky-dinks I guess, and has absolutely nothing to do with racism that is still inherent to some institutions and groups of people.

It's like you don't read. I've addressed it multiple times. Here

Quote

 

t is not weird that the black and minority population is WAY overrepresented. I've said no less than 4 times that the intersectionality for poor and BIPOCs in modern America is a real result of real (systematic) racism. My only point was that in modern times today, the majority of folks aren't racist against BIPOCs as they were in the past. Today it has more to do with class than color.

(Of course there are populations who still believe blacks are inherently biologically inferior to white people, but they are not the mainstream and the backwaters of Alabama and Vidor aren't germane to the conversation so let's agree they exist but are not statistically significant to discuss)

 

Quote

 

The problem is we too easily conflate this classism with racism because, ironically, of real racism. There is a big overlap and intersectionality of poor people who are black because of a past society which was racist (again, the real racism that said whites were better than blacks by virtue of just being white in a sort of begged question, backed up by what is overwhelmingly accepted as pseudo-science).

I hope that explains my point better so you don't continue thinking I wasn't serious. Further, to you point, I'm sure there are still people or populations in the deep south or Orange, Texas or other places like that who still are traditional racists, but for the general population and society I think it's this classism that is the real culprit.

 

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25 minutes ago, Satchel said:

You have yet to provide support for your poor people behavior theory. Can you pinpoint the seminal moment that marked an end to the type of racism from which America has moved on?

I don't know if there can ever be a seminal moment, but you can pinpoint the seminal beginning and that would be with the Brown vs BOE and the subsequent desegregation of America. I think once people intermixed in society as "equals" (at that time, of course, things were not equal), a lot of the learned or inherited ignorance that prevailed in the "blacks are subhuman/subspecies and whites are a superior biological race" melted away under the light of lived experiences and realization that biology is more or less equal opportunity employers for our capabilities, features and attributes in both physical and mental.

Satchel let me be clear here for you, because you seem to be trying to stump-the-chump when you really don't grasp my position: I haven't published a paper in the Mid-Atlantic Journal of Social Sciences for a Modern World under the title "Classism as the new modality for racism in America" so I'm not going to have a bunch of scholarship at my disposal and and your beck-and-call, but you asking a bunch of mind-numbing questions because you don't grasp what I'm saying isn't disproving or discrediting my opinion. It would be more productive if you could push back or challenge with your own take, in agreement or disagreement.

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3 minutes ago, TurkeyChew said:

It's like you don't read. I've addressed it multiple times. Here

No, I read your whole thing. Your assertion that "today it has more to do with class than color" is bullshit. The words that people choose to use is "class" instead of "color" but the end result is still the same. The work of multiple generations of conservative operatives has been to use more ambiguous language to abstract racial prejudice and inequity into plain old American market forces. Paul Manafort, Roger Stone, Richard Nixon, Barry Goldwater, all kicked it off and promulgated the grievances into the conservative movement.

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6 minutes ago, Captainant said:

No, I read your whole thing. Your assertion that "today it has more to do with class than color" is bullshit. The words that people choose to use is "class" instead of "color" but the end result is still the same. The work of multiple generations of conservative operatives has been to use more ambiguous language to abstract racial prejudice and inequity into plain old American market forces. Paul Manafort, Roger Stone, Richard Nixon, Barry Goldwater, all kicked it off and promulgated the grievances into the conservative movement.

Gotta put Lee Atwater on the Mount Rushmore of shitbag racist conservatives.

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2 hours ago, TurkeyChew said:

I don't know what to tell you, I just don't see it. I don't see it that way in my lived experiences and in my community, workplace or place of worship, etc.

I'm not saying you are wrong-- I actually generally appreciate your perspectives though I mostly disagree-- but maybe I just am not in the space to understand this as you do. And that's about I guess all we can say about this topic, at least as far as I'm concerned. I'll recuse myself now.

Peace be with you all.

I don't think you understand what it means to recuse yourself.

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7 minutes ago, cactusflinthead said:

I don't think you understand what it means to recuse yourself.

No, but they do.  And they're the ones recusing the excusing.../kramer

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I think I get where poultry tobacco is coming from, although I still think it's wrong.  The citation of Brown keyed it for me.

He had defended or justified white flight and the continuous deterioration of inner-city schools and neighborhoods/gentrification as an issue of  people with the means to do so fleeing the socio-economically disadvantaged, not merely because they're brown. And there may be a nugget of truth there.

And I guess you could argue that browns suffer more from their socio-economic disadvantages (poor people behavior) than current racism, as long as your argument acknowledges that the pervasive disadvantages stem directly from historical racism.

But it's not a general case.  And the way that race is used as an heuristic to assume poor people behavior is racist as hell.  And there is certainly evidence that systemic or institutional racial "assumptions" continue to undermine blacks and browns to this day.

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An informal case study on the classism vs. racism debate:

My (white) wife has a name that is typically considered as Black. She is as white as can be, and people who meet her typically treat her pretty respectfully, relatively speaking.

At one point, she got a job doing chat tech support. People would chat or text in with their tech problems and she’d solve them. She was one of the top performing tech support people in the company. Customers only interaction with her was a name and text support for their problems.

Her female colleagues (so controlling for the sexism) — women who were largely less competent than her but had more racially neutral names — were generally treated respectfully by customers. The customers may have been angry or frustrated, but they remained open and receptive to help. My wife received all sorts of racist comments and general belligerence. Even after solving the problem, she was assumed to be untrustworthy and incompetent.

The same person: in person she’s treated respectfully and assumed to be competent and trustworthy; when her whiteness is hidden, she’s assumed to be incompetent even after solving the problem. The only difference is her presumed skin color.

I assume this presumption of incompetence and untrustworthiness is pretty typical for Black Americans. Classism may be a part of the equation, but it’s not the major driver. And even that classism is built on a foundation of racism.

Polite society has largely driven out the ugliest expressions of racism, but the underlying assumptions that drove those ugly expressions are still widely present.

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It is needless to say that racism is baked into our society. We have profound inequality here on so many levels. I hope we can alleviate this problem, but I don’t see much change in my already-long lifetime. 
 

That said, my opinion is that we now teach people to feel like victims and that is as destructive as systemic racism to break the bonds of poverty. 
 

You want to help people? Teach them coding. Give them skills to empower themselves. My daughter currently does this through her university and the program is making a difference. 


Rather than focus teaching on all the wrongs, spend that time giving people skills. 
 

Neg away.

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1 hour ago, TreatyOak said:

It is needless to say that racism is baked into our society. We have profound inequality here on so many levels. I hope we can alleviate this problem, but I don’t see much change in my already-long lifetime. 
 

That said, my opinion is that we now teach people to feel like victims and that is as destructive as systemic racism to break the bonds of poverty. 
 

You want to help people? Teach them coding. Give them skills to empower themselves. My daughter currently does this through her university and the program is making a difference. 


Rather than focus teaching on all the wrongs, spend that time giving people skills. 
 

Neg away.

Not saying you don't have a valid point here, but could you give some examples of the things we should try to stop teaching?  Maybe clarify the "we" also. Are you referring to teachers, parents, politicians, celebrities?

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34 minutes ago, TreatyOak said:

It is needless to say that racism is baked into our society. We have profound inequality here on so many levels. I hope we can alleviate this problem, but I don’t see much change in my already-long lifetime.

That said, my opinion is that we now teach people to feel like victims and that is as destructive as systemic racism to break the bonds of poverty. 

You want to help people? Teach them coding. Give them skills to empower themselves. My daughter currently does this through her university and the program is making a difference.

Rather than focus teaching on all the wrongs, spend that time giving people skills.

Neg away.

That post has a very “I’m not a racist, but...” quality to it. Nobody is teaching anyone to feel like victims other than white people who don’t want to acknowledge the history of racism in our country and who think that reverse racism is worse than actual racism. And who feel victimized by having to face reality. History happened. If you think that teaching history, you know, the shit that happened in the past, makes you feel victimized, then you should maybe consider the possibility that you’re a racist. The minorities who are victimized get taught but they learn it by experiencing it firsthand. It’s kind of hard to blame black folks for not trusting white folks. Especially when those white folks are wearing a police uniform (or holding a political office, or running a bank, or selling houses, or hiring white collar jobs, etc.)

I understand how the white majority have victimized minorities in this country. I didn’t take part in it and I feel no personal guilt about it. People who claim “They’re teaching white guilt!” are fucking morons. And probably racists. Nobody is doing that. Again, shit that happened in the past happened and there’s nothing wrong with talking about it. If it makes you uncomfortable then that’s your problem.

Get over it already. There’s only one race, the human race, and we’re all the same. Most of us are assholes. We can occasionally be astonishing in our brilliance, and often just as astonishing in our stupidity. I grew up in two tiny lily-white rural towns and it took me awhile to get over my ignorance and I treasure my exposure to the diversity at my school, and at work, and in my community, that made me realize that superficial differences just don’t fucking matter.

In the course of learning not to care about “race,” I’ve made some mistakes in my language due to my ignorance. But I learned and got over it. For a lot of people, including family members and other people I know, it starts with ignorance. They just don’t know any better. That’s why I’m always beating the drum about Ignorance -> Fear -> Intolerance-> Hate. Each follows from the other. I shouldn’t have to add that violence is a consequence of hate. And I could throw “Suspicion” in there after “Fear.” But I don’t think those are really necessary to illustrate the concept.

People are people. We’re all the same. I don’t know if we’ll ever get to a point where everyone gets that but I think it starts with people not being afraid to discuss the fact that people all over the world have been pretty shitty to other people over superficial and trivial differences for as long as we’ve been people. E pluribus unum” means “Out of many, one.” Why don’t we talk about that more than “In God we trust?” We should. And whatever happened to the Golden Rule?

And yeah, let’s get all the people working in oil and gas and coal to learn coding skills. Easy peasy. JFC.

Also, pics of daughter?

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