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Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, huge said:

Rex.

Also it sounds like a freak accident, one that could have potentially been avoided if they had just guarded against the elderly woman sneak attack plot.  Lots of industrial facilities have hardened fence exteriors but a whole shitload do not.

Their stock price has gone down some, that has to make you feel a little better?

I'm moreso just baffled how such a critical and sensitive valve has zero physical protections in place. Doesn't heavy equipment operate on those sites? It's shocking that there would be no bollards or physical barrier protecting that infra.

Is it standard procedure to run a 1400PSI pipeline through a residential area with effectively zero physical protection? I am incredulous that it could be just normal to have giant exposed weak points all over the country running in between neighborhoods.

Edited by Captainant
Posted
6 minutes ago, Evil Bill Obrien said:

I get what you are saying, and for people “in the biz” (used to be me) there’s a difference, but for 99% of the population, it doesn’t make a shit. If your firms pipeline is carrying natural gas and it’s burning out of control, O&G firm you are…

 

 

5 minutes ago, Captainant said:

I'd call apple and nvidia both tech firms because their primary product is tech. Exxon and ETP both have O&G as a primary product, and is therefore an O&G firm.

It seems weird to carve it out just because it isn't a fully vertically integrated operation. Is it like they need to have a fully realized hydrocarbon value chain complete with conveinence stores to meet your definition?

 

Anywho, why the fuck do yall care so much? Or is this just rex doing his pissant thing?

 

5 minutes ago, royiv said:

Would your say that Apple and Nvidia are both tech companies?

 

They're both in the tech sector.  Apple's a consumer electronic company.  Nvidia's a semiconductor company.  Exxon and ETP are both in the oil and gas sector.  Exxon's the world's largest integrated energy firm.  ETP is a midstream operator.    

 

I'm in finance, not energy.  The label "oil and gas firm" has a distinct standard that will make you look like a first day hire if used in the wrong way.  I'm surprised at the blowback and unwillingness to acknowledge an innocent misconception as if that discredits whatever point you're trying to make. 

 

 

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Posted
Just now, Rex Kramer said:

It’s a midstream company, and more specifically a transportation company. It does not produce hydrocarbons. It is very understood that oil and gas companies are producers. They are not ET, or a services company like Halliburton, or a retail electric provider like Centerpoint. These are idiotic comments by people who have no understanding of the industry. 

I know the difference.  But most don't care about the distinction.

 

Thank the heavens we got that sorted.   Anything else to add?

 

 

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, gsoda3 said:

 

 

 

 

They're both in the tech sector.  Apple's a consumer electronic company.  Nvidia's a semiconductor company.  Exxon and ETP are both in the oil and gas sector.  Exxon's the world's largest integrated energy firm.  ETP is a midstream operator.    

 

I'm in finance, not energy.  The label "oil and gas firm" has a distinct standard that will make you look like a first day hire if used in the wrong way.  I'm surprised at the blowback and unwillingness to acknowledge an innocent misconception as if that discredits whatever point you're trying to make. 

 

 

The point that I was trying to make is, who gives a flying fuck? A pipeline exploded, people’s shit is getting wrecked and the air quality in Houston takes another hit and people are squabbling about what an O&G company is. Maybe focus on the events at hand instead of dumb semantics.

Edited by royiv
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Posted
27 minutes ago, Evil Bill Obrien said:

What was in that pipeline again? 
 

Veggie Tales Thinking GIF
 

Sorry it’s just horrendously pedantic to think a midstream pipeline company like ET isn’t also a “O&G firm”

This is the Internet, horrendously pedantic is what we do

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Posted
3 minutes ago, royiv said:

The point that I was trying to make is, who gives a flying fuck? A pipeline exploded, people’s shit is getting wrecked and the air quality in Houston takes another hit and people are squabbling about what an O&G company is. Maybe focus on the events at hand instead of dumb semantics.

Right, because this is taking away from the repair efforts at Deer Park. I know people don't like acknowledging mistakes so if you want to move on just move on, you don't need to keep arguing. 

Posted
2 minutes ago, Hate said:

That pipeline was pretty damn far away from any traffic. The fence was sufficient for many years.

"I always drive carefully. I've been fine not wearing a seatbelt for years" Just because something has always been done one way doesn't mean it's the best or safest way to do it. 

And I again ask: is it normal to have these massively high pressure pipelines laid in between neighborhoods? It seems like a MAJOR operational security risk, not to mention the ongoing disaster that was getting entire homes close to autoignition temperature. 

 

That's one hell of a public subsidy to allow an extremely hazardous pipeline through a residential area.

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Posted
3 minutes ago, Rex Kramer said:

99% of people are energy idiots, yet spout off about “O&G firms”.

My comment above describes why I care. You in particular mouth off and you haven’t a clue what you’re talking about. For example, your middle paragraph is way off. There are very few integrated firms, and even that’s a misnomer. Integrateds, often called majors(Exxon, Chevron), aren’t even fully integrated in that they don’t own/operate pipelines. Because pipelines are highly specialized. O&G companies can do very poorly while simultaneously, midstream companies can be flourishing. 

The appropriate, all-encompassing descriptor is to talk about “Energy” companies. Midstream companies are most certainly NOT Oil and Gas companies. 

 

Just now, Rex Kramer said:

You should aim your venom at Captainant, who ignorantly mouthed off and fucked it up in the first place. I responded with a one-liner, and that clown doubled down. Sorry not sorry.  

So rather than engage on my questions around pipeline locations and hardening, you're just being a pissant and latching onto an arbitrary industry-specific labeling. Lol in my team at my job both of those firms are in the "oil and gas" cluster of companies. I'll let them know that their entire business plan is invalid because of this oversight.

 

I'll ask again, knowing that portahouse won't answer: is it normal to have these massively high pressure pipelines laid in between neighborhoods? It seems like a MAJOR operational security risk, not to mention the ongoing disaster that was getting entire homes close to autoignition temperature. 

Posted
Just now, Captainant said:

 

So rather than engage on my questions around pipeline locations and hardening, you're just being a pissant and latching onto an arbitrary industry-specific labeling. Lol in my team at my job both of those firms are in the "oil and gas" cluster of companies. I'll let them know that their entire business plan is invalid because of this oversight.

 

I'll ask again, knowing that portahouse won't answer: is it normal to have these massively high pressure pipelines laid in between neighborhoods? It seems like a MAJOR operational security risk, not to mention the ongoing disaster that was getting entire homes close to autoignition temperature. 

Yes they are everywhere

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Posted
1 minute ago, Captainant said:

 

So rather than engage on my questions around pipeline locations and hardening, you're just being a pissant and latching onto an arbitrary industry-specific labeling. Lol in my team at my job both of those firms are in the "oil and gas" cluster of companies. I'll let them know that their entire business plan is invalid because of this oversight.

 

I'll ask again, knowing that portahouse won't answer: is it normal to have these massively high pressure pipelines laid in between neighborhoods? It seems like a MAJOR operational security risk, not to mention the ongoing disaster that was getting entire homes close to autoignition temperature. 

Sometimes the neighborhoods come after.  Not sure about this case.

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Posted
5 minutes ago, Captainant said:

allow an extremely hazardous pipeline through a residential area.

There are transmission pipelines running through lots of residential areas. Most were there before the homes were built. I have 4 that run across my property. A 5th one got yanked out of the ground and ruptured when a bulldozer caught an unmarked valve with it's ripper. Thank God it was decommissioned, but it still spewed out shit for hours. I was mudfarming drilling mud back then. The dozer operator never told anyone what he was going to do and left without telling anyone. He was suppossed to run a disc and plow it in. It was a helluva sight to see when I got home from work.

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Posted
6 minutes ago, Captainant said:

 

So rather than engage on my questions around pipeline locations and hardening, you're just being a pissant and latching onto an arbitrary industry-specific labeling. Lol in my team at my job both of those firms are in the "oil and gas" cluster of companies. I'll let them know that their entire business plan is invalid because of this oversight.

 

I'll ask again, knowing that portahouse won't answer: is it normal to have these massively high pressure pipelines laid in between neighborhoods? It seems like a MAJOR operational security risk, not to mention the ongoing disaster that was getting entire homes close to autoignition temperature. 

No. This was the only one in the entire country.

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Posted
3 minutes ago, RPM said:

There are transmission pipelines running through lots of residential areas. Most were there before the homes were built. I have 4 that run across my property. A 5th one got yanked out of the ground and ruptured when a bulldozer caught an unmarked valve with it's ripper. Thank God it was decommissioned, but it still spewed out shit for hours. I was mudfarming drilling mud back then. The dozer operator never told anyone what he was going to do and left without telling anyone. He was suppossed to run a disc and plow it in. It was a helluva sight to see when I got home from work.

Buried and underground, I understand running through a residential area. If you need to come above ground and expose it near neighborhoods, that's one hell of a public subsidy to not require those firms to carry a ton of insurance and/or harden the weak points in case of what's still burning in Deer Park.

1 minute ago, Hate said:

No. This was the only one in the entire country.

Hey man, it's in one of the most cancer-infested parts of Houston that's been getting the benefits of O&G industry for decades. It was an honest question if something so neglectful to public safety was unique to Houston

Posted

While I can appreciate the severity of this situation and feel terribly for the families impacted, this is a fairly unique event. I don’t think it requires any kind of an overreaction. Those valves are pretty ubiquitous and are pretty safe until some old lady has a medical event and plows into it while driving backwards from a shopping center. 

Posted
1 minute ago, Rex Kramer said:

Second paragraph, wrong again, you fucking antagonistic idiot. It’s in the epicenter of the midstream, refining and petrochemical industries of the US. There are no oil and gas fields in Deer Park to my knowledge and if there are, they are not prolific. 

Holy shit next you're gonna say refineries aren't O&G either lmao

 

methinks the portahouse doth protest too much.

Posted
1 minute ago, Rex Kramer said:

 antagonistic 

sublime

1 minute ago, Captainant said:

Holy shit next you're gonna say refineries aren't O&G either lmao

 

methinks the portahouse doth protest too much.

and you aren't helping either 

 

Posted
4 minutes ago, Captainant said:

Buried and underground, I understand running through a residential area. If you need to come above ground and expose it near neighborhoods, that's one hell of a public subsidy to not require those firms to carry a ton of insurance and/or harden the weak points in case of what's still burning in Deer Park.

Hey man, it's in one of the most cancer-infested parts of Houston that's been getting the benefits of O&G industry for decades. It was an honest question if something so neglectful to public safety was unique to Houston

20-25 years ago, there was a big story in Austin about the Longhorn Pipeline that passes through a chunk of Baja South Austin. If I recall correctly, it was originally built to carry crude oil between the Permian Basin and the Gulf. When it was brought back to life, homeowners and the City had concerns about leaks from this old pipeline because (in its second iteration) the plan was to carry gasoline in the opposite direction under much higher pressure passing within only a few feet of people's backyards within Austin and through environmentally sensitive aquifer recharge zones. I think it was converted once again at some point back to oil, and it eventually did leak somewhere in the Hill Country. Fortunately, it was oil instead of gasoline so it caused less of a mess.

At any rate, I think there was a big legal battle pitting the City of Austin, homeowners, and Hill Country landowners against the pipeline company that dragged out for a while, and obviously the latter ended up winning after giving reassurances that they'd improve the pipeline so that it wouldn't leak, which it eventually did. Apparently, some quirks in Texas law give pipeline companies extraordinary powers that extend to even having the power of eminent domain, so I guess the point of this post is simply to say do your due diligence and don't buy homes/buildings/land where oil & gas pipelines were or might be built because your property rights are secondary to theirs.

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Posted
38 minutes ago, Captainant said:

That's one hell of a public subsidy to allow an extremely hazardous pipeline through a residential area.

 

17 minutes ago, Captainant said:

If you need to come above ground and expose it near neighborhoods, that's one hell of a public subsidy to not require those firms to carry a ton of insurance and/or harden the weak points in case of what's still burning in Deer Park

Yes, we get it.  It is subsidized and someone, somewhere is making a dollar so it’s evil. I’m sure the fine folks in those Deer Park neighborhoods never understood there’s 1,243,473 pipelines running thru the middle of their community - just totally hoodwinked and bamboozled by Big Oil and its oligarchs. I bet they were specially told there was no pipelines there - what an injustice. 
How long does it take to put on your clown makeup every day? 

Posted
7 minutes ago, Rex Kramer said:

Um, they absolutely are not. Did you lose a bet where you had to intentionally make an ass of yourself today?

Why are you calling me portahouse over and over again?

Correct but I’d call it the energy industry. O&G is limited to upstream. 

I would consider the Energy Industry to include renewables and coal.  Upstream, Midstream, and Downstream are sectors of the O&G Industry.

Posted
7 minutes ago, Rex Kramer said:

Why are you calling me portahouse over and over again?

Because your last account was porterhouse before you "quit" and came back as rex. And thank you for the thorough and tactful education that the only people allowed to call themselves members of the illustrius O&G industry are producers.

Posted
Just now, Rex Kramer said:

I would too. But O&G is limited to upstream. 

I'm not in the industry but grew up with it all around me, and I always considered E&P to be the upstream portion of the broader O&G industry.

Posted
22 minutes ago, Captainant said:

If you need to come above ground and expose it near neighborhoods, that's one hell of a public subsidy to not require those firms to carry a ton of insurance and/or harden the weak points in case of what's still burning in Deer Park.

All pipelines have above ground valves and pig ports for maintenance. The largest line that crosses my place (8 inch) has one about 1/2 mile away. It has a chainlink fence for protection. 

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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, bolverk said:

I'm not in the industry but grew up with it all around me, and I always considered E&P to be the upstream portion of the broader O&G industry.

The Office Thank You GIF
 

has always been my understanding as well. Source: I used to work for a company that provided various software solutions mostly to E&P firms.

Edited by Evil Bill Obrien
Posted
4 minutes ago, RPM said:

All pipelines have above ground valves and pig ports for maintenance.

Fucking PHMSA and their lack of gaf about the safety or regulation of pipelines.  It’s about time we demand this government run entity much more heavy handed.  Someone needs to be held accountable for these subsidized freak accidents.  Also, should we be burying lines anymore?  I know you are required to do an 811, but imagine if someone excavated into one…

Posted
9 minutes ago, RPM said:

All pipelines have above ground valves and pig ports for maintenance. The largest line that crosses my place (8 inch) has one about 1/2 mile away. It has a chainlink fence for protection. 

Why is it not guarded 24x7 by Seal Team 6? I know there are a lot of old people in North Texas.

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Posted
4 minutes ago, royiv said:

WTF does this protracted discussion of what is or isn’t O&G have to do with the current events in Deer Park? This discussion is a beating. 

About as much as the discussion hardening every pig trap and riser across America because clownworld. 

Posted
9 minutes ago, royiv said:

WTF does this protracted discussion of what is or isn’t O&G have to do with the current events in Deer Park? This discussion is a beating. 

As a somehow favorite professor of mine at the Harvard of the Hill Country Texas State once said: “we aren’t talking about what the grass is, we are talking about what the grass IS

Can’t wait to /Thread this once the stupid fire is finally out

Posted (edited)

It's always a good time when fatty comes around and misrepresents what I posted about hardening sites near neighborhoods to instead be every site everywhere. And double lulz for citing a safety regulatory body that lost its ability to regulate thanks to the Loper decision, while getting indignant about someone being accountable to this disaster.

 

My bad for being surprised that it's perfectly normal to have zero physical barriers to protect a valve holding back 2 days (and counting) worth of 1400psi gas in the middle of residential area.

Edited by Captainant
Posted
14 minutes ago, Rex Kramer said:

A better argument and you and NMAS are clearly more educated on the topic. We’re getting into semantics territory a bit. But there is often very little communication between upstream and midstream. They’re totally different businesses. Midstream I view as a tollway charging a tariff. They don’t often take commodity price risk. Upstream is totally different.  Midstream players are not a part of the oil and gas industry. They’re part of the pipeline, midstream or infrastructure industry. 

I don't know, Energy Transfer Partners seems to feel differently. It posted a YouTube video entitled "We're Proud to be a Leader in the Oil & Gas Industry"

I don't really get why this is so contentious either way. 

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Posted

For shits and giggles I looked at the site of the explosion in Google maps. Using the past images feature, I was able to see that the pipeline was installed somewhere between 1995-2002. The houses that were near the explosion were not there at the time. Let’s assume that it was 2002 when the pipeline was installed. That means the pipeline existed without issue for at least 22 years including during a period of extensive construction near the site. Like I said, there is no reason to over react to this incident. 

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Posted
40 minutes ago, Rex Kramer said:

Correct but I’d call it the energy industry. O&G is limited to upstream. 

In my world it's officially (Bloomberg, Morningstar, SP) classified as the Energy sector with industries referred to as O&G Integrated, O&G Midstream, O&G Refining and Marketing, etc. 

Most of the time though (research reports, notes, discussions) the phrase "oil and gas" is used to denote that industry vs renewables and alts.  

 

 

 

Posted
Just now, Hate said:

For shits and giggles I looked at the site of the explosion in Google maps. Using the past images feature, I was able to see that the pipeline was installed somewhere between 1995-2002. The houses that were near the explosion were not there at the time. Let’s assume that it was 2002 when the pipeline was installed. That means the pipeline existed without issue for at least 22 years including during a period of extensive construction near the site. Like I said, there is no reason to over react to this incident. 

I suppose so, but I just don't understand not improving/hardening access as the surrounding area became more residential. I understand your point of "well it's been fine up till now", but isn't a part of being a professional looking to mitigate future risk and potential for operational issues like this? Nothing insane like fort knox like fatty would assert - just four concrete bollards every 90 degrees around the valve to prevent heavy collisions with a very vulnerable piece of equipment. 

I don't see that as overreaction, and it's surprising to see it framed as such

Posted
31 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

About as much as the discussion hardening every pig trap and riser across America because clownworld. 

The rare occasion I agree with you.

Posted

Sidenote, I was curious on what the safety reg is for pipeline valve safety and found the following:

https://www.phmsa.dot.gov/regulations/title49/interp/pi-12-0008

In a letter to the Pipeline and Hazardous Materials Safety Administration (PHMSA) dated August 9, 2012, the Associated Safety Consultants (ASC), Inc., requested an interpretation of the applicability of the Federal pipeline safety regulations at 49 CFR 192.317(b) to an aboveground gas transmission line or main.  Specifically, ASC asks PHMSA's interpretation of how a 'safe distance' is defined or determined, and what would constitute an effective barricade?

Section 192.317(b) reads as follows:

(b) Each aboveground transmission line or main, not located offshore or in inland navigable water areas, must be protected from accidental damage by vehicular traffic or other similar causes, either by being placed at a safe distance from the traffic or by installing barricades. 

PHMSA has not adopted general criteria to judge the safety of distances and effective barricades separating aboveground gas pipeline facilities from vehicular traffic.  Therefore, a safe distance and effective barricade would be whatever a reasonable and prudent pipeline operator would conclude is safe under the site specific circumstances, considering relevant factors such as the speed limit, the direction of traffic, the terrain, and any natural barriers.

 

So there's no actual rules or regulations on what is required, just as long as it passes the gut check of the operator. The valve is 100 feet from a 50mph road (45 posted, but cmon its Houston yall), surrounded by gravel. A chainlink fence seems sub-par at best.

Posted
On 9/16/2024 at 12:55 PM, faps said:

Seems like they could've shut an upstream valve by now.

On 9/16/2024 at 1:08 PM, Evil Bill Obrien said:

Yeah whoever is running this pipeline sure is taking their sweet time getting it shut off…

On 9/16/2024 at 1:31 PM, Rip76 said:

Agreed.

"Y-Grade NGL is an un-fractionated hydrocarbon mixture comprising ethane, propane, butane, isobutane, and pentane plus. Pentane plus comprises pentane, isopentane, and/or heavier weight hydrocarbons, for example hydrocarbon compounds containing at least one of C5 through C8+."

Y-Grade is the mixture of Natural Gas Liquids (NGL) that are removed in a Gas Processing Plant.  The processing plants are located proximate to the wells producing the gas (West Texas for example), and the recovered NGL are transported via pipelines to the fractionation plants (FRACTIONal + distillATION = FRACTIONATION) where the the multi-component Y-Grade stream is separated into the 5 "purity products" (these are some of the tall towers you see in petrochemical complexes).

Mont Belvieu, TX, north of Baytown, is the largest concentration of NGL fractionation plants and underground storage of NGL's in the world, with a small cartel of midstream companies with fractionation plants that include hundreds of underground storage caverns. The underground caverns are created by "solution mining" tear-drop shaped caverns (cavities) out of huge underground "salt plugs". A cavern a nominal, 2,000 foot deep, 1,000 feet tall, 100-200 ft in diameter cavity holding ~ 1,000,000 barrels, or 50,000,000 gallons of product. Envision downtown Houston, turned upside down so the tall buildings extend into the ground, and now fill all those deep depressions full of flammable hydrocarbons.

Hundreds of gas processing plants transport NGL from across the country through multiple pipelines to the various fractionation facilities along the Gulf Coast from Corpus Christi to Mississippi, where hundreds of more pipelines connect to the various refineries and petrochemical plants along the coast.  Each pipeline will a series of block valves along the route, with the number and locations of valves dependent on a number of factors. Whether the pipelines are privately owned or common carrier pipelines, they are all governed by government and industry standards that allow them function properly every day, without any discernible impact to the general public.

"Nothing is fool proof, because fools are so ingenious." 

Apparently a motor vehicle hit one of those above ground block valve locations near Deer Park. 

On 9/16/2024 at 6:53 PM, Captainant said:

Pipelines hold a shitton, local news said the pipe was was 1400PSI at the time of the rupture. And the rupture happened at one of the pipeline isolation valves so the fire is getting fed by two multi-mile mile segments of isolated 20" diameter pipe.

Deer Park mayor said it's likely gonna burn through the night. 

Thank God the EPA has been stripped of its authority and power and we get to enjoy the free spicy air in H-town

Yes, once the pipeline is breached, all you can do is isolate the section with the breach. If the product in normally a vapor at room temperature and pressure, it will vent until all the high pressure liquids have vaporized and dissipated naturally, or it finds an ignition source. If the product is normally a liquid at room temperature and pressure, it will leak until the leak is repaired or until all the leak stops flowing. It will take a long time for a Y-grade NGL pipeline to completely vaporize, as the heavier fractions have similar characteristics to gasoline and vaporize slowly. Once the area is evacuated, letting the pipeline burn out is the safest option, because it won't explode. 

Fuck the EPA. Natural Gas Liquids are the last place you want a EPA bureaucrat involved.

NGL industry pipelines operate under the umbrella of the Department of Transportation and the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission. Whether the pipelines are privately owned or common carrier pipelines, they are built and operated to government standards and Industry guidelines, including the Gas Processors Association. The GPA is an industry led group that has been a forum for sharing best practices for over 100 years ...  

Enhancing the viability of natural gas, natural gas liquids and crude oil

Shaping the U.S. midstream energy sector since 1921, GPA Midstream sets standards for natural gas liquids; develops simple and reproducible test methods to define the industry’s raw materials and products; manages a worldwide cooperative research program; provides a voice for our industry on Capitol Hill; and is the go-to resource for technical reports and publications. The annual GPA Midstream Convention is the premiere meeting place for midstream professionals from around the globe.

On 9/16/2024 at 7:20 PM, Captainant said:

Dude you can't expect these O&G companies to do inspections and maintenance on their equipment! Do you know how much that costs??? Just ask centerpoint

Please, don't ever confuse a real Midstream company with a refinery or chemical plant, or an exploration and production company, or for god's sake, a utility.

Every day, trained and experienced personnel take the most volatile hydrocarbon products known to man, boost it to a pressure high enough that a leak would cut you half, and for good measure, put it in large steel tanks, and add heat. They work alongside 25,000 HP gas turbines every day, that have jet engines on one side of a shaft connected to a compressor that boosts 250,000,000 FT3 of gas per day to pressures exceeding 1,000 pounds per square inch. Everything is mechanical, and eventually, if not maintained properly, it will break.

Our job is never so important that we cannot take the time to do it safely.

If I don't have the time to do it right the first time, when will I have the time to fix it.

We're a technical company, so technical people are going to run it.

Sorry guys, this for the adults for which math makes your heart go pitter-patter.

On 9/16/2024 at 10:13 PM, pacman said:

Well, you would like to think any exposed infrastructure are protected by concrete barriers of some sort, if your fence is too pussy to take on a white suv. But, I know these billionaire o&g types can't afford $500 in concrete and materials.

On 9/16/2024 at 10:19 PM, Brisketexan said:

There’s a natural gas valve for the local distribution system near us (I drive by it). A steel pipe cage - pipe looks to be 6-inch OD - was built around it to protect from a vehicle strike. And I would expect it to work except against a really heavy truck.

The valve stations and other above facilities are usually protected by chain link fences, to keep people out, or steel pipes filled with concrete, to keep bigger things out.

A barrier built to protect from a tractor with a blade may not stop a bull dozer, or an SUV.

Odds are the pipeline and other facilities were built well before the Wal-Mart.

On 9/17/2024 at 7:23 AM, Nice Guy Eddie said:

I would bet the crisis manual item #1 is to release as little information as possible to limit liability claims. This will be the priority of the company. 

Wouldn’t be surprised if those in the evacuation zone are being asked to sign a release today in exchange for $5,000. We want to help you get back on your feet ASAP but I can only do that if you sign this 10 page document right this second.

Not to mention PI lawyers also descending on them which is who I would sign with.

There is ample evidence that ignorant (lacking knowledge, information, or awareness about a particular thing) people will make statements of fact without knowing the facts. 

I would expect the company shared the pertinent information with law enforcement, fire departments, etc. Those governmental entities would have the responsibilities to share information with those directly impacted by the incident, and with the general public as deemed appropriate. There is nothing that is beneficial with sharing unconfirmed information or theories with reporters and PI attorneys. 

10 hours ago, Captainant said:

still begs the question: how are there not more bollards or other protective measures to keep heavy things away from such a vulnerable and critical valve? In a residential area no less? They just throwing up a chainlink fence and calling it good?

Go look at the "Green Belt" in your neighborhood. Odds are it is a pipeline right of way, laser straight with well defined inflection points. And those neighbors paid a premium to live next to it!

The pipelines have beneficial use of the right of ways on the land they traverse, by virtue of legal documents agreed to by the landowner and the operating company. Maintenance of the right of way, and everything on it, is the responsibility of the operating company. The operating companies have no rights or responsibilities for anything outside of the right of way. 

Most of the pipelines and related facilities were built away from population centers many years ago. They were built to the standards at the time construction, including limitations on the maximum allowable operating pressures relative to the population density at that time. As the cities have expanded, they have encroached on that pre-existing infrastructure. Relocating and rerouting pipelines happens occasionally, but that is not the norm.  A cultivated field that had corn or wheat for 50 years is now a subdivision with streets and roads and houses and driveways and swimming pools and water lines and power lines.

Whether you agree or not, in my example, the financial burden to remedy the situation lies with the developer and the government entity that approved the encroachment. Whether you agree or not, there are practical limits as to what could and should be done, on a case by case basis, including relocating the pipeline.

There were over 40,000 auto related fatalities in 2023. Every entity in government and civil society with a means to change that has accepted that fatalities are unavoidable, and acceptable. We could not afford to drive cars, or fly airplanes, that are 100% "safe."

You want safe and protective measures?

What is the probability that a titanium blade on a steam turbine spinning at 4,000 rpm could break off, penetrate the turbine shell, penetrate the turbine building, fly 1,000's of feet, and penetrate a 4 1/2 foot thick reinforced-concrete secondary containment building (build with a lattice of ~ 15 layers of 2' steel rebar), penetrate a 2 foot thick reinforced-concrete primary containment building, and penetrate a 14" thick steel nuclear reactor vessel?

I don't know either, but the Nuclear Regulatory Commission thought is was high enough that the orientation of the turbines should be turned 90 degrees relative to the nuclear reactor. I guess they were right because it's never happened.

  • Hook 'Em 1
Posted
3 minutes ago, PTINS said:

Y-Grade is the mixture of Natural Gas Liquids (NGL) that are removed in a Gas Processing Plant.  The processing plants are located proximate to the wells producing the gas (West Texas for example), and the recovered NGL are transported via pipelines to the fractionation plants (FRACTIONal + distillATION = FRACTIONATION) where the the multi-component Y-Grade stream is separated into the 5 "purity products" (these are some of the tall towers you see in petrochemical complexes).

Mont Belvieu, TX, north of Baytown, is the largest concentration of NGL fractionation plants and underground storage of NGL's in the world, with a small cartel of midstream companies with fractionation plants that include hundreds of underground storage caverns. The underground caverns are created by "solution mining" tear-drop shaped caverns (cavities) out of huge underground "salt plugs". A cavern a nominal, 2,000 foot deep, 1,000 feet tall, 100-200 ft in diameter cavity holding ~ 1,000,000 barrels, or 50,000,000 gallons of product. Envision downtown Houston, turned upside down so the tall buildings extend into the ground, and now fill all those deep depressions full of flammable hydrocarbons.

Hundreds of gas processing plants transport NGL from across the country through multiple pipelines to the various fractionation facilities along the Gulf Coast from Corpus Christi to Mississippi, where hundreds of more pipelines connect to the various refineries and petrochemical plants along the coast.  Each pipeline will a series of block valves along the route, with the number and locations of valves dependent on a number of factors. Whether the pipelines are privately owned or common carrier pipelines, they are all governed by government and industry standards that allow them function properly every day, without any discernible impact to the general public.

"Nothing is fool proof, because fools are so ingenious." 

Apparently a motor vehicle hit one of those above ground block valve locations near Deer Park. 

Yes, once the pipeline is breached, all you can do is isolate the section with the breach. If the product in normally a vapor at room temperature and pressure, it will vent until all the high pressure liquids have vaporized and dissipated naturally, or it finds an ignition source. If the product is normally a liquid at room temperature and pressure, it will leak until the leak is repaired or until all the leak stops flowing. It will take a long time for a Y-grade NGL pipeline to completely vaporize, as the heavier fractions have similar characteristics to gasoline and vaporize slowly. Once the area is evacuated, letting the pipeline burn out is the safest option, because it won't explode. 

Fuck the EPA. Natural Gas Liquids are the last place you want a EPA bureaucrat involved.

NGL industry pipelines operate under the umbrella of the Department of Transportation and the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission. Whether the pipelines are privately owned or common carrier pipelines, they are built and operated to government standards and Industry guidelines, including the Gas Processors Association. The GPA is an industry led group that has been a forum for sharing best practices for over 100 years ...  

Enhancing the viability of natural gas, natural gas liquids and crude oil

Shaping the U.S. midstream energy sector since 1921, GPA Midstream sets standards for natural gas liquids; develops simple and reproducible test methods to define the industry’s raw materials and products; manages a worldwide cooperative research program; provides a voice for our industry on Capitol Hill; and is the go-to resource for technical reports and publications. The annual GPA Midstream Convention is the premiere meeting place for midstream professionals from around the globe.

Please, don't ever confuse a real Midstream company with a refinery or chemical plant, or an exploration and production company, or for god's sake, a utility.

Every day, trained and experienced personnel take the most volatile hydrocarbon products known to man, boost it to a pressure high enough that a leak would cut you half, and for good measure, put it in large steel tanks, and add heat. They work alongside 25,000 HP gas turbines every day, that have jet engines on one side of a shaft connected to a compressor that boosts 250,000,000 FT3 of gas per day to pressures exceeding 1,000 pounds per square inch. Everything is mechanical, and eventually, if not maintained properly, it will break.

Our job is never so important that we cannot take the time to do it safely.

If I don't have the time to do it right the first time, when will I have the time to fix it.

We're a technical company, so technical people are going to run it.

Sorry guys, this for the adults for which math makes your heart go pitter-patter.

The valve stations and other above facilities are usually protected by chain link fences, to keep people out, or steel pipes filled with concrete, to keep bigger things out.

A barrier built to protect from a tractor with a blade may not stop a bull dozer, or an SUV.

Odds are the pipeline and other facilities were built well before the Wal-Mart.

There is ample evidence that ignorant (lacking knowledge, information, or awareness about a particular thing) people will make statements of fact without knowing the facts. 

I would expect the company shared the pertinent information with law enforcement, fire departments, etc. Those governmental entities would have the responsibilities to share information with those directly impacted by the incident, and with the general public as deemed appropriate. There is nothing that is beneficial with sharing unconfirmed information or theories with reporters and PI attorneys. 

Go look at the "Green Belt" in your neighborhood. Odds are it is a pipeline right of way, laser straight with well defined inflection points. And those neighbors paid a premium to live next to it!

The pipelines have beneficial use of the right of ways on the land they traverse, by virtue of legal documents agreed to by the landowner and the operating company. Maintenance of the right of way, and everything on it, is the responsibility of the operating company. The operating companies have no rights or responsibilities for anything outside of the right of way. 

Most of the pipelines and related facilities were built away from population centers many years ago. They were built to the standards at the time construction, including limitations on the maximum allowable operating pressures relative to the population density at that time. As the cities have expanded, they have encroached on that pre-existing infrastructure. Relocating and rerouting pipelines happens occasionally, but that is not the norm.  A cultivated field that had corn or wheat for 50 years is now a subdivision with streets and roads and houses and driveways and swimming pools and water lines and power lines.

Whether you agree or not, in my example, the financial burden to remedy the situation lies with the developer and the government entity that approved the encroachment. Whether you agree or not, there are practical limits as to what could and should be done, on a case by case basis, including relocating the pipeline.

There were over 40,000 auto related fatalities in 2023. Every entity in government and civil society with a means to change that has accepted that fatalities are unavoidable, and acceptable. We could not afford to drive cars, or fly airplanes, that are 100% "safe."

You want safe and protective measures?

What is the probability that a titanium blade on a steam turbine spinning at 4,000 rpm could break off, penetrate the turbine shell, penetrate the turbine building, fly 1,000's of feet, and penetrate a 4 1/2 foot thick reinforced-concrete secondary containment building (build with a lattice of ~ 15 layers of 2' steel rebar), penetrate a 2 foot thick reinforced-concrete primary containment building, and penetrate a 14" thick steel nuclear reactor vessel?

I don't know either, but the Nuclear Regulatory Commission thought is was high enough that the orientation of the turbines should be turned 90 degrees relative to the nuclear reactor. I guess they were right because it's never happened.

Holy shit YGIFS has returned!

And I just posted the safety standard a couple posts up for above ground pipes and valves: if the operator says it's good, then no further questions asked. Which is to say: there is effectively zero standard for safety. I appreciate your depth of experience and passion for your field, but you're acting like it's an act of god to put up more than a chainlink fence to protect a critical valve that's 100ft away from a 50mph road. Of course there can always be something bigger that would hit a valve and overwhelm its protection, and putting bollards in around the pipeline in the greenspace in your example doesn't make sense because it's not common for there to be heavy vehicles in that area. But even so, when the area around a site changes over time it's irresponsible to refuse to update your own safety posture.

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