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SmokeyBear1861

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3 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

No I’m not, if you want to say that the Israeli government is doing crimes by facilitating the expansion of settlements in the West Bank, I’ll tell you that you’re right. 
 

What I am saying is that the narrative above is a historic anti-Semitic narrative and when it’s deployed agains the world’s only Jewish nation, it’s anti-Semitic.  All these old theories and libels are not new, and neither is the substitution of a stand-in for Jew.  It was antisemitism back when it was lobbed against “International Cosmopolitanism.”

And Jews are a people, not just a religion. The intellectual facile bit comes into play when you willfully ignore the history and context that comes with it. In an American context, it’s similar to admitting that while false cries of rape are always harmful and bad, they carry an extra level of malevolence when levied against Black men. Context matters. 

The more you post the clearer it becomes that the issue is your inability to differentiate between always and sometimes. False rape allegations against black men are not necessarily racist in origin. Frequently? Yes. Always? No. It's the same with accusations of malevolent actions by Israel. 

I did enjoy the irony of the person arguing that things are always black or white with no room for other possibilities confidently asserting that his is the intellectually rigorous position. Certainty is easier than understanding and judgment is easier than curiosity.

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3 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

You're not wrong and a lot of the "leftist, neo-Marxist" rhetoric is super silly, idealistic, and flat out wrong.

My position has always been that a military defeat of Hamas is something that can't really be accomplished short of literally killing every Palestinian in Gaza. Obviously, that would be awful and ultimately counter-productive. I don't think anyone besides the small minority of the most bloodthirsty right-wingers Israel has to offer wants that.

Hamas is many things but first and foremost it's an idea that can't truly be destroyed by simply employing an ever escalating level of violence. the first real step to truly and finally eradicating Hamas is to end the ethnic cleansing, which can only be done by Israel's government itself (really, by America's influence, but lol). When I talk about the power dynamic, that's what I mean. I don't believe Israel is in the wrong by default simply because they are in the more powerful position, that would be insane.

You can kill as many Hamas actors as you want, but in the end, the idea will stay in place until conditions are altered enough for the it to wither and die. Ultimately, it has to be defeated politically to be gone for good.

I hope that reality can ever come to fruition but I am almost as pessimistic as you.

I will absolutely 100% second this. Go there, if you can.

Well, and probably at least half of the Republican party.

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1 minute ago, Brisketexan said:

Goddammit, I sympathize with the Palestinians.  I want a two-state solution.  I want Israeli crimes against Palestinians to be punished.  But when the other side of the ledger uniformly ends with "and end the state of Israel, so that jews have no safe place left in this world," it all goes to shit.

Whoops, here you go with the Palestinians = Hamas shit, yet again. Stop it.

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1 minute ago, Brisketexan said:

Because they miss the fucking practical.  By a mile.  If a muslim wants a safe muslim ethnostate to seek refuge in, he has a dozen to choose from.  But jews....well, I guess they don't get one.  Not a single one.

And don't point to Europe as a jewish safe haven.  That's still a bit fucking raw.  Maybe don't point to the US either - we did a fine job of turning away jewish refugees during the holocaust, and are apparently deciding that violent anti-semitism is something we ought to look into doing again, at least among a depressingly significant portion of our population.  Jews don't have ANYWHERE ON EARTH that is an actual refuge....except Israel.  That is a reality, and being that a shitload of the discussion of this issue just takes that fact right off the table means that we're all just wasting our time.  Jews will never let go of the concept of having a state that is a safe haven for jews.  They'd be suicidal-stupid to do so.

Goddammit, I sympathize with the Palestinians.  I want a two-state solution.  I want Israeli crimes against Palestinians to be punished.  But when the other side of the ledger uniformly ends with "and end the state of Israel, so that jews have no safe place left in this world," it all goes to shit.

Well, as statsman pointed out, there's been a whole lot of missiles launched at Israelis for a long time. And that was before their government was completely overtaken by a corrupt band of religious extremists who seem intent on waging an all-out religious war.

I've been alarmed about the growing anti-Semitism here in America for awhile, but I think Jews are still probably on the whole safer here. 

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Just now, Brian Fantana said:

Whoops, here you go with the Palestinians = Hamas shit, yet again. Stop it.

Nope, I don't mean Palestinians = Hamas.  And you know I don't. 

I DO mean a metric shitton of the "pro-Palestinian" voices, both here and abroad.  When that's what's being chanted at pro-Palestinian march and demonstration after demonstration, it tends to poison the well.

One can be pro-Palestinian, and want the Palestinian people to live safe and secure lives, on land in the levant, and NOT be chanting "from the river to the sea."  Those voices seem rather muted in the overall discussion.

Just now, wildcat09 said:

Well, as statsman pointed out, there's been a whole lot of missiles launched at Israelis for a long time. And that was before their government was completely overtaken by a corrupt band of religious extremists who seem intent on waging an all-out religious war.

I've been alarmed about the growing anti-Semitism here in America for awhile, but I think Jews are still probably on the whole safer here. 

....for now.

That is the coda that follows every statement as to the safety and security of jews, anywhere on earth - "for now."  Millenia of history tell us so.

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10 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

I agree with the bolded. As for Hamas' intent, yeah it's absolutely genocidal. I'm not very familiar with the new(ish?) framework of determining proportionate military responses, calculating estimated civilian casualties, etc. and how they balance e.g. Hamas' genocidal intent with its actual capacity, so I can't really speak to that.

 

Bit of an aside here, but have you been to the Museum of Communism in Prague? That place is fascinating.

There was an interesting article a while back that I can’t find which dove into how the IDF is using a framework similar to the ones NATO uses/used in anti-ISIS and the Iraq War to balance military value against likely civilian impact before authorizing an air strike. It is likely similar but not identical and the key is that the “acceptable” ratio varies: We are more aggressive than the UK which is more aggressive than most Euros and the IDF is surely more aggressive than us.  But there is a framework there. 
 

That museum is OK, it’s interesting but the best museum is the New National Museum’s 20th century history wing.  It’s great but not as well-marketed to visitors. 

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1 minute ago, Brisketexan said:

One can be pro-Palestinian, and want the Palestinian people to live safe and secure lives, on land in the levant, and NOT be chanting "from the river to the sea."  Those voices seem rather muted in the overall discussion.

And yet, those of us who are exactly that are continually accused to being anti-semitic by people you fucking upvote constantly in this thread.

 

2 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Nope, I don't mean Palestinians = Hamas.  And you know I don't. 

How else am I supposed to interpret "the other side of the ledger is uniformly for wiping Israel out" ???

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7 minutes ago, Huckleberry said:

The more you post the clearer it becomes that the issue is your inability to differentiate between always and sometimes. False rape allegations against black men are not necessarily racist in origin. Frequently? Yes. Always? No. It's the same with accusations of malevolent actions by Israel. 

I did enjoy the irony of the person arguing that things are always black or white with no room for other possibilities confidently asserting that his is the intellectually rigorous position. Certainty is easier than understanding and judgment is easier than curiosity.

Parsing down whether each individual deployment of a historical anti-semitic trope has anti-semetic intent behind it is not a productive path. This is basically “you can’t know what’s in their heart.”  Ok? All I can say is that when people start saying that the Jews or an entity closely affiliated with Jews are faking or fomenting atrocities because they have a secret sinister motive to advance— it sounds pretty fucking anti-Semitic and the people who say it should know better. 
 

Similar vibes: 

image.jpeg.9d73d6d3714c9b0bb7f9b705b00a229f.jpeg

 

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16 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Because they miss the fucking practical.  By a mile.  If a muslim wants a safe muslim ethnostate to seek refuge in, he has a dozen to choose from.  But jews....well, I guess they don't get one.  Not a single one.

And don't point to Europe as a jewish safe haven.  That's still a bit fucking raw.  Maybe don't point to the US either - we did a fine job of turning away jewish refugees during the holocaust, and are apparently deciding that violent anti-semitism is something we ought to look into doing again, at least among a depressingly significant portion of our population.  Jews don't have ANYWHERE ON EARTH that is an actual refuge....except Israel.  That is a reality, and being that a shitload of the discussion of this issue just takes that fact right off the table means that we're all just wasting our time.  Jews will never let go of the concept of having a state that is a safe haven for jews.  They'd be suicidal-stupid to do so.

Goddammit, I sympathize with the Palestinians.  I want a two-state solution.  I want Israeli crimes against Palestinians to be punished.  But when the other side of the ledger uniformly ends with "and end the state of Israel, so that jews have no safe place left in this world," it all goes to shit.

Ugh, I really need to avoid this thread. Millions of Jews live safely in the United States and in Europe. You're far more likely to get murdered in an elementary school than a Synagogue in the US. The tiki torch maga anti-Semites seem more like nutless incels than serious threats. Terrorists are just as angry at Americans in general than specifically Jews, hence 9/11 as an attack on America in general, even when support for Israel is their underlying beef. 

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13 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Jews don't have ANYWHERE ON EARTH that is an actual refuge....except Israel. 

This might sound insensitive, but so...

Sadly there are lots of groups that fall into this category.  Why is it more important for this particular group of people to have a "refuge" than it is for any of the other displaced peoples of the world?

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5 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Parsing down whether each individual deployment of a historical anti-semitic trope has anti-semetic intent behind it is not a productive path. This is basically “you can’t know what’s in their heart.”  Ok? All I can say is that when people start saying that the Jews or an entity closely affiliated with Jews are faking or fomenting atrocities because they have a secret sinister motive to advance— it sounds pretty fucking anti-Semitic and the people who say it should know better. 
 

Similar vibes: 

image.jpeg.9d73d6d3714c9b0bb7f9b705b00a229f.jpeg

 

You are making your position look weaker with every post you make and don't even realize it. Here you equate opposition to government leaders with using a slur and you think you make a good point. 

The oppressed can and do become the oppressors. Christians were once persecuted and slaughtered. Now in many places around the world they treat others like shit and subject them to second class citizenship (and are trying to do the same again here). Opposition to those efforts is not religious bigotry but in your view it is.  

Theocratic ethnostates suck. All of them. 

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1 minute ago, DixonHur said:

I am, so there's at least one of us.

It's really not hard to understand.  Israel is a country...Jews are a religion/race.  

I don't like Iran but I have no issue with Persian people.

 

So you don't think Israel should exists as a country?

 

2 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

You see what I fuckin mean with this dumb shit @Brisketexan? I mean, this is borderline trolling but still.

 

Fuck you, don't like what I say put me on ignore

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1 minute ago, Smax said:

 

So you don't think Israel should exists as a country?

 

 

Fuck you, don't like what I say put me on ignore

It's more that it's just a really stupid thing to say if that makes you feel better. There are millions of Jews who hate the current Israeli government. So yes, there are lots of people who love Jews but are against Israel. Such as, you know, lots of Jews themselves. 

Lots of people on one of the two sides of the debate here thinks all Jewish people are the same. Interestingly it's not the side opposed to Israel's actions. 

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5 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

This might sound insensitive, but so...

Sadly there are lots of groups that fall into this category.  Why is it more important for this particular group of people to have a "refuge" than it is for any of the other displaced peoples of the world?

 

 

People who think like you, decided to get together and try kick them out of Israel. Those people got their ass whooped multiple times. We sit here and debate and argue in this forum about a number of topics none of us are experts in. We dish opinions on right and wrong but you know whats right in the world?

Might, might makes right, hate it love it doesn't matter because its what rules the world.

 

You want take Israel land away from them? Good fucking luck, but play and say it happens why stop there. What other of the MANY countries in existence now can we kick out the people and give it to someone else

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10 minutes ago, 'stache said:

Ugh, I really need to avoid this thread. Millions of Jews live safely in the United States and in Europe. You're far more likely to get murdered in an elementary school than a Synagogue in the US. The tiki torch maga anti-Semites seem more like nutless incels than serious threats. Terrorists are just as angry at Americans in general than specifically Jews, hence 9/11 as an attack on America in general, even when support for Israel is their underlying beef. 

If an Israel-Palestine thread prompts you to say that the neo-Nazi torch wavers who sparked a deadly riot aren’t that big of a deal, actually, again—— time for an inventory. 

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1 minute ago, Huckleberry said:

It's more that it's just a really stupid thing to say if that makes you feel better. There are millions of Jews who hate the current Israeli government. So yes, there are lots of people who love Jews but are against Israel. Such as, you know, lots of Jews themselves. 

Lots of people on one of the two sides of the debate here thinks all Jewish people are the same. Interestingly it's not the side opposed to Israel's actions. 

Youre conflating the government and the country, why?

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7 minutes ago, Huckleberry said:

You are making your position look weaker with every post you make and don't even realize it. Here you equate opposition to government leaders with using a slur and you think you make a good point. 

The oppressed can and do become the oppressors. Christians were once persecuted and slaughtered. Now in many places around the world they treat others like shit and subject them to second class citizenship (and are trying to do the same again here). Opposition to those efforts is not religious bigotry but in your view it is.  

Theocratic ethnostates suck. All of them. 

Dude, I don’t know what to tell you. When you go overseas and hear people say “9/11 was an inside job,” don’t make the incredibly stupid assumption that they are just anti-Bush or anti-Republican or something. They’re anti-Americans, full stop.

“October 7 was provoked or an inside job or is fake” is not legitimate criticism of the Israeli government and you’re being willfully ignorant to pretend like it is. 

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4 minutes ago, Smax said:

 

 

People who think like you, decided to get together and try kick them out of Israel. Those people got their ass whooped multiple times. We sit here and debate and argue in this forum about a number of topics none of us are experts in. We dish opinions on right and wrong but you know whats right in the world?

Might, might makes right, hate it love it doesn't matter because its what rules the world.

 

You want take Israel land away from them? Good fucking luck, but play and say it happens why stop there. What other of the MANY countries in existence now can we kick out the people and give it to someone else

This is the worst post in this thread by a mile. I feel like someone just took a nail gun to my frontal lobe. Holy shit.

3 minutes ago, Smax said:

Youre conflating the government and the country, why?

 

17 minutes ago, Smax said:

No one is anti Israel and likes jews

This you?

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40 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

Whoops, here you go with the Palestinians = Hamas shit, yet again. Stop it.

While Palestinians does not equal Hamas completely, it gets really complicated trying to distinguish Hamas from Palestinians generally.  It's been many years ago, but they were elected into power by a majority of the Palestinian voters.  They still, even today, garner considerable support (regardless of how misguided it may be) from a substantial portion of Gaza's population.  Many Palestinians want peace and nothing to do with Hamas' violence.  Yet, many support them, shelter and hide them, and seem to be accepting of having their military/terroristic command and control centers buried beneath or inside of civilian hospitals, places of worship, etc.

In contrast, I think it is much easier to distinguish the Israeli government (which, by the way, has members of the Knesset who are Palestinian Israeli citizens) from Jews and Israelis of all faiths and ethnicities.

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4 hours ago, 'stache said:

Americans were overwhelmingly in support of efforts to root out terrorism in the middle east after 9/11. Public support faded when it became full scale wars against Iraq and Afghanistan. It's obviously difficult to root out individuals and terrorist cells as opposed to flighting state armies, but that's the reality of the situation in that region and should be waged as such, in my opinion.

Waged for how long? And how severely? 

No matter which way Netanyahu's government goes it'll suffer an image crisis. Pull back and look weak. Keep going and look barbaric. That's the catch 22. Israel isn't the US. They don't have the stranglehold the US had on global commerce in 2001 to be in a position to alienate everyone. The US has taken great damage to it's image and alliances with it's actions post 9/11 and Israel risks taking greater damage if it tries to go this alone and isolates itself.

Besides, how many examples do we need of heavy handed tactics making things worse? The rise of Hezbollah, ISIS, etc all coming from this type of situation. Even if they manage to root out and deal a ton of damage to Hamas over the coming months/years the nature of the destruction will just create new enemies. It never ends. 

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14 minutes ago, Huckleberry said:

It's more that it's just a really stupid thing to say if that makes you feel better. There are millions of Jews who hate the current Israeli government. So yes, there are lots of people who love Jews but are against Israel. Such as, you know, lots of Jews themselves. 

Lots of people on one of the two sides of the debate here thinks all Jewish people are the same. Interestingly it's not the side opposed to Israel's actions. 

Hundreds of millions of Americans hated the Trump administration, me included, and I would never in a million years say “I’m against America.”  Neither would most of the others who worked like hell to get him out. 
 

A good test of whether it’s legitimate criticism or just bigoted conspiracy theory is to sub in entirely different political actors and see if the point changes or likely line of attack changes at all. Such it is with the extremely bigoted accusation that 9/11 was an inside job or that Israel allowed 10/7 to happen to themselves. 

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2 minutes ago, DDD Dad said:

While Palestinians does not equal Hamas completely, it gets really complicated trying to distinguish Hamas from Palestinians generally.  It's been many years ago, but they were elected into power by a majority of the Palestinian voters.  They still, even today, garner considerable support (regardless of how misguided it may be) from a substantial portion of Gaza's population.  Many Palestinians want peace and nothing to do with Hamas' violence.  Yet, many support them, shelter and hide them, and seem to be accepting of having their military/terroristic command and control centers buried beneath or inside of civilian hospitals, places of worship, etc.

In contrast, I think it is much easier to distinguish the Israeli government (which, by the way, has members of the Knesset who are Palestinian Israeli citizens) from Jews and Israelis of all faiths and ethnicities.

Hamas was never elected by a majority of Palestinians. And when they were elected, roughly half of the Palestinians alive today either weren’t alive or were children well below voting age.

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41 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

You can kill as many Hamas actors as you want, but in the end, the idea will stay in place until conditions are altered enough for the it to wither and die. Ultimately, it has to be defeated politically to be gone for good.

Hamas was founded by a man whose formative childhood experience was the ethnic cleansing of and expulsion from his village to a Gaza refugee camp. His village was cleansed by a Haganah/IDF brigade that made its way through the region raping and massacring its inhabitants as it pushed them out. You look at the pictures of all these palestinian kids...eight, nine, ten years old... literally convulsing in fear, brains soaked in cortisol and adrenaline, brutally traumatized both psychologically and physically, motherless and fatherless. Well, you are looking at the origin story of the next Ahmed Yassin. And the same goes the other way, the Israeli people are scarred by actions of Oct 7. Around and around we go.  

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22 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

If an Israel-Palestine thread prompts you to say that the neo-Nazi torch wavers who sparked a deadly riot aren’t that big of a deal, actually, again—— time for an inventory. 

You mean Charlottesville? They weren’t exactly mad about the Jews (except Soros or something). I’ve never been able to figure out how their hatred of Black people has anything to do with the Jews. They are literally morons who don’t know shit. If anything it proves that Black people and others are in far more danger in the US. Even when they throw in some stuff about the Jews. It’s more about love of authoritarians (aka Nazis) than hatred of Jews for being Jews.

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1 minute ago, 'stache said:

You mean Charlottesville? They weren’t exactly mad about the Jews (except Soros or something). I’ve never been able to figure out how their hatred of Black people has anything to do with the Jews. They are literally morons who don’t know shit. If anything it proves that Blacks and others are in far more danger in the US. Even when they throw in some stuff about the Jews. It’s more about love if authoritarians (aka Nazis) than hatred of Jews for being Jews.

I mean, I’m not going to argue that they are not morons but it sounds pretty willfully oblivious to say that waving Nazi shit and chanting “Jews will not replace us” means it’s not about Jew hatred. 
 

Come On Biden GIF by GIPHY News
 

 

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2 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

I mean, I’m not going to argue that they are not morons but it sounds pretty willfully oblivious to say that waving Nazi shit and chanting “Jews will not replace us” means it’s not about Jew hatred. 
 

Come On Biden GIF by GIPHY News
 

 

If you asked any of them what that means they couldn’t answer. They probably don’t even know how to identify a Jewish person who isn’t Orthodox. 

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6 minutes ago, 'stache said:

You mean Charlottesville? They weren’t exactly mad about the Jews (except Soros or something). I’ve never been able to figure out how their hatred of Black people has anything to do with the Jews. They are literally morons who don’t know shit. If anything it proves that Black people and others are in far more danger in the US. Even when they throw in some stuff about the Jews. It’s more about love of authoritarians (aka Nazis) than hatred of Jews for being Jews.

Modern racists view Jews as the puppetmasters that stir up the dumb, violent minority groups to threaten good white Americans and help them remake America as a godless country.

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34 minutes ago, 'stache said:

Ugh, I really need to avoid this thread. Millions of Jews live safely in the United States and in Europe. You're far more likely to get murdered in an elementary school than a Synagogue in the US. The tiki torch maga anti-Semites seem more like nutless incels than serious threats. Terrorists are just as angry at Americans in general than specifically Jews, hence 9/11 as an attack on America in general, even when support for Israel is their underlying beef. 

On the surface, I don't disagree here and I recognize fully what I am about to say is purely anecdotal.  I am not a super devoted Jew, and my Jewish circle really doesn't extend beyond the greater Houston area.  I'm about as far removed from the conflict, physically and emotionally, as a Jew can be.

In the past two weeks, there's been an Israeli restaurant vandalized in Houston and a neighbor two streets over found a note stuck under her mezuzah "take this ugly thing down."  Again, this isn't me projecting one-off occurrences from across the country, this is my fucking immediate circle.

Our plight absolutely is miniscule to what either group is facing over there, and I know we aren't the first group to have shit like this happen.  But don't gaslight us, man.  

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1 minute ago, 'stache said:

If you asked any of them what that means they couldn’t answer. They probably don’t even know how to identify a Jewish person who isn’t Orthodox. 

“Stupid, easily manipulated people who don’t understand Jews are being manipulated into waving Nazi flags and yelling about Jews” is not a supporting argument to the the thesis “anti-Semisoms isn’t a real issue,” my man.

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19 minutes ago, Willfully Horn said:

I’ve tried to find reports of Palestinians protesting attacks on, or in support of, Jews, but have failed to find them. If someone could direct me to these reports, I’d be grateful.

Conversely, there are myriad reports of Jewish protests condemning attacks on, and in support of, Palestinians.

This.  @Brian Fantana, maybe this is more what I was inartfully trying to get to.

I see and hear a shitload of division among jews -- it seems like for every hardliner I hear, I also hear dissenting jewish voices calling out Bibi, Likud, Israeli settlement and brutality in the WB, and the like.

From the pro-Palestinian voices, it's really hard to find voices who simply say "yes, Israel can exist, and its citizens should be able to exist without being in fear of genocidal attacks....and the Palestinian people should have the same."  The voices mostly seem to be divided between the "from the river to the sea" crowd and the "who gives a shit about what happens to Israel and jews?" and/or just silence on the subject.

I have said repeatedly that I WANT to be more sympathetic to the Palestinian cause, I already AM sympathetic to the Palestinian cause, I WANT for Palestinians to live safely and securely (and I see a separate state as the only way to get there), but the public conversation on the matter makes it goddamned hard.  I can find LOTS of good voices from the jewish side actually calling for justice and peace for both jews and palestinians.  It's really hard to find a significant number of similar voices on the pro-Palestinian side.  That's problematic.

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5 minutes ago, Chuckie Finster said:

In the past two weeks, there's been an Israeli restaurant vandalized in Houston and a neighbor two streets over found a note stuck under her mezuzah "take this ugly thing down."  Again, this isn't me projecting one-off occurrences from across the country, this is my fucking immediate circle.

Our plight absolutely is miniscule to what either group is facing over there, and I know we aren't the first group to have shit like this happen.  But don't gaslight us, man.  

And this.

It's been 80 years or so since the last attempt to wipe jews off the face of the earth.  Not "out of a particular area," but functional extinction and extermination -- a "final solution," if you will.  They damned well are aware that the next attempt might be just around the corner, because IT FUCKING MIGHT, and there are literally hundreds of millions of voices calling for it RIGHT NOW (tune in to the arab world, then add in those who feel similarly in the rest of the world).

There is no place on earth where it is completely safe to be a jew.  Just because the machinery of genocide hasn't been built today doesn't mean their safe from tomorrow's building project.

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13 minutes ago, Chuckie Finster said:

On the surface, I don't disagree here and I recognize fully what I am about to say is purely anecdotal.  I am not a super devoted Jew, and my Jewish circle really doesn't extend beyond the greater Houston area.  I'm about as far removed from the conflict, physically and emotionally, as a Jew can be.

In the past two weeks, there's been an Israeli restaurant vandalized in Houston and a neighbor two streets over found a note stuck under her mezuzah "take this ugly thing down."  Again, this isn't me projecting one-off occurrences from across the country, this is my fucking immediate circle.

Our plight absolutely is miniscule to what either group is facing over there, and I know we aren't the first group to have shit like this happen.  But don't gaslight us, man.  

Certainly not saying everything is great for Jewish people, but the statement was that Jews can’t live safely anywhere and that just isn’t true. I’m Hispanic and look Middle Eastern and get some shit. My friends are gay and had their donut shop vandalized twice for hosting drag shows. I have way more fear for them tbh.

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10 minutes ago, Chuckie Finster said:

On the surface, I don't disagree here and I recognize fully what I am about to say is purely anecdotal.  I am not a super devoted Jew, and my Jewish circle really doesn't extend beyond the greater Houston area.  I'm about as far removed from the conflict, physically and emotionally, as a Jew can be.

In the past two weeks, there's been an Israeli restaurant vandalized in Houston and a neighbor two streets over found a note stuck under her mezuzah "take this ugly thing down."  Again, this isn't me projecting one-off occurrences from across the country, this is my fucking immediate circle.

Our plight absolutely is miniscule to what either group is facing over there, and I know we aren't the first group to have shit like this happen.  But don't gaslight us, man.  

To this I would add— if you’re upset at the Israeli government, ok.  That’s fair, and you don’t deserve to be called anti-Semitic for that.

But if you tandem that criticism with “these actual, real-life, Nazi-flag waving assholes screaming about Jews are NBD. Shootings at Jewish places of worship and other centers, eh.  If anything this is all worse for non-Jews.” 
 

Then you need to have some awareness that it doesn’t lend people to trust that you’re speaking in good faith on the former. 

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6 minutes ago, Chuckie Finster said:

You're a really good poster, but "hatred doesn't count if they're stupid" is a really weird place to plant your flag.

Ugh, never said it didn’t count, I said they’re not exactly targeting Jews with violence, they’re driving trucks into BLM rallies. I knew better than to even try with this thread, I’m out.

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27 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

From the pro-Palestinian voices, it's really hard to find voices who simply say "yes, Israel can exist, and its citizens should be able to exist without being in fear of genocidal attacks....and the Palestinian people should have the same."  The voices mostly seem to be divided between the "from the river to the sea" crowd and the "who gives a shit about what happens to Israel and jews?" and/or just silence on the subject.

This is horseshit dude. If you can't find it, you're not looking hard enough. Once again, you're ascribing the worst case scenario intentions on all pro-Palestinian voices. Frankly, I'm sick of engaging with you on it because you do not approach this subject in good faith, and you're simply blind to that.

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