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Solar Panels for the house


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1 hour ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

One of the biggest selling points of a renewable energy purchase is the tax credit. Since the buyer of a house, already with solar panels, doesn’t get the credit, value is much much lower to them. Perhaps 0. If solar is important to me as a buyer, I might prefer to add solar to a house without them. That way I get the tax credit and full choice of what I want.

if you roll the cost of solar panels into a refi, you basically just lowered your equity and you’re slowly going to get it back over the next 10-20 years at best case. I’m really not seeing that much of an upside financially speaking. You own less of your house now and your solar panels are giving you $20 per month.  If the numbers work out.

and appraisals only mean so much. I’ve rarely heard of an appraisal not coming in what is wanted, within reason.  Be happy with your purchase but stop the crap that it’s a good financial deal.

I'm not selling it to anyone else. I'm not saying it is the best investment in the world. I'm saying, in my situation, the numbers workout on the positive side of the ledger. And that is all I personally need to make it work since I do have a concern for environment. That is it. Why do you care so much about how I view my financial situation? I understand everything you said. I understand that it reduces equity in the house. I get how that works. I'm pretty well educated amigo. 

(1) I totally get that it doesn't work that well without the tax credit. But, right now, the tax credit exists. So It goes into the calculus. 

(2) I completely understand that a buyer isn't going to increase his offer by the full price of the solar system. Why would he if he could build it himself for less by taking advantage of the tax credit? I expect that the absolute highest amount it could add to the value of a property would be the after tax-credit cost. And I also expect that it doesn't add that much. 

(3) The solar panels aren't giving me $20 a month. They are giving me $110 a month. That $90 doesn't disappear. It goes to pay off a loan, increasing my equity in the house. What I do get is an additional $20 dollars in positive cash flow. 

(4) Even if the solar panels add $0 to the value of the house, they still aren't necessarily a bad deal IF you plan on keeping the property for an extended period of time. Some math:

Cost after tax credit/rebate = 13k, all financed. 

Loan = $90 per month, 15 year term.  

Production = $110 per month or $1,320 per year. 

Average cash savings during loan term = 110-90 = $20 per month or $240 per year

Year 0

House Equity = -13k

Year 1

Net House Equity = -12.3k ($700 in payments going to principal)

All Time Additional Savings = $240 ($20 in additional production per month x 12)

Total position = -12K

Year 2

Net House Equity = -11.6k ($700 in payments going to principal)

All Time Additional Savings = $480

Total position = -11.1K 

Year 5

Net House Equity = -9.3k 

All Time Additional Savings = $1200

Total position = -8.1k

Year 10

Net House Equity = -5k 

All Time Additional Savings = $2400

Total position = -2.6k

Year 15

Net House Equity = -0k

All Time Additional Savings = $3600

Total position = +3600

 

This is damn conservative too. It has a 0 dollar increase in value of house, no yearly increase in energy cost per Kwh, and doesn't account for investing the additional savings from the production. And, all of that is within the warranty period. And, for the entire period the only affect on my monthly budget is a $20 decrease with no out of pocket outlay by me. Seriously, why should I be unhappy, financially, with this at all?

Edited by Dahobbs
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16 hours ago, troph said:

If I said you can have solar for free would you take it?

Isn’t that what every solar salesperson says?

Out of curiosity, what energy providers are providing good credits these days? I Thought green mountain was one of better options in Houston.

Edited by Nice Guy Eddie
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18 hours ago, Dahobbs said:

I'm not selling it to anyone else. I'm not saying it is the best investment in the world. I'm saying, in my situation, the numbers workout on the positive side of the ledger. And that is all I personally need to make it work since I do have a concern for environment. That is it. Why do you care so much about how I view my financial situation? I understand everything you said. I understand that it reduces equity in the house. I get how that works. I'm pretty well educated amigo. 

(1) I totally get that it doesn't work that well without the tax credit. But, right now, the tax credit exists. So It goes into the calculus. 

(2) I completely understand that a buyer isn't going to increase his offer by the full price of the solar system. Why would he if he could build it himself for less by taking advantage of the tax credit? I expect that the absolute highest amount it could add to the value of a property would be the after tax-credit cost. And I also expect that it doesn't add that much. 

(3) The solar panels aren't giving me $20 a month. They are giving me $110 a month. That $90 doesn't disappear. It goes to pay off a loan, increasing my equity in the house. What I do get is an additional $20 dollars in positive cash flow. 

(4) Even if the solar panels add $0 to the value of the house, they still aren't necessarily a bad deal IF you plan on keeping the property for an extended period of time. Some math:

Cost after tax credit/rebate = 13k, all financed. 

Loan = $90 per month, 15 year term.  

Production = $110 per month or $1,320 per year. 

Average cash savings during loan term = 110-90 = $20 per month or $240 per year

Year 0

House Equity = -13k

Year 1

Net House Equity = -12.3k ($700 in payments going to principal)

All Time Additional Savings = $240 ($20 in additional production per month x 12)

Total position = -12K

Year 2

Net House Equity = -11.6k ($700 in payments going to principal)

All Time Additional Savings = $480

Total position = -11.1K 

Year 5

Net House Equity = -9.3k 

All Time Additional Savings = $1200

Total position = -8.1k

Year 10

Net House Equity = -5k 

All Time Additional Savings = $2400

Total position = -2.6k

Year 15

Net House Equity = -0k

All Time Additional Savings = $3600

Total position = +3600

 

This is damn conservative too. It has a 0 dollar increase in value of house, no yearly increase in energy cost per Kwh, and doesn't account for investing the additional savings from the production. And, all of that is within the warranty period. And, for the entire period the only affect on my monthly budget is a $20 decrease with no out of pocket outlay by me. Seriously, why should I be unhappy, financially, with this at all?

 

This all makes sense to me. My only concern was as some noted above potential repairs or maintenance/impact to the roof. Seems like you haven't had issues at least yet. 

Dumb question alert - so you can "bank" energy created by the solar system you have with batteries etc.?  I thought most of these systems generally would not benefit if the power grid goes down or you lose access to power from the Utility/bad weather etc.  Is that not accurate, or did your system just include the storage aspect?  One of the drivers for me was the ability to have a day or two of power in event of hurricane etc without going the generator route.

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7 minutes ago, Enchubben said:
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This all makes sense to me. My only concern was as some noted above potential repairs or maintenance/impact to the roof. Seems like you haven't had issues at least yet. 

Dumb question alert - so you can "bank" energy created by the solar system you have with batteries etc.?  I thought most of these systems generally would not benefit if the power grid goes down or you lose access to power from the Utility/bad weather etc.  Is that not accurate, or did your system just include the storage aspect?  One of the drivers for me was the ability to have a day or two of power in event of hurricane etc without going the generator route.

The Powerwall storage system is the break thru (hopefully a break thru) that may make solar actually viable.

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2 hours ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

Isn’t that what every solar salesperson says?

Out of curiosity, what energy providers are providing good credits these days? I Thought green mountain was one of better options in Houston.

Green Mountain is who I went with. Energy out at same price as energy in. Also provided 2500 in a check rebate when I switched. The per kwh is more than my previous provider, but at least it is clean and simple: one straight price kwh at any energy usage. 

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22 minutes ago, Enchubben said:
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This all makes sense to me. My only concern was as some noted above potential repairs or maintenance/impact to the roof. Seems like you haven't had issues at least yet. 

Dumb question alert - so you can "bank" energy created by the solar system you have with batteries etc.?  I thought most of these systems generally would not benefit if the power grid goes down or you lose access to power from the Utility/bad weather etc.  Is that not accurate, or did your system just include the storage aspect?  One of the drivers for me was the ability to have a day or two of power in event of hurricane etc without going the generator route.

You are correct that most grid tied systems do not work if the grid is down. This is generally to protect workers and lines from unexpected current from a solar system while they work on down lines. 

Batteries can change that equation by providing someplace for the energy to go other than the grid. And, obviously, they allow you to draw energy when both the grid and sun are down. The problem: battery systems are still expensive. If you look at the life of a system, I think the more recent v2 powerwalls still add 10 to 14 cents per kwh that you draw from them. 

14 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

The Powerwall storage system is the break thru (hopefully a break thru) that may make solar actually viable.

In some areas that is true, especially if the utility doesn't allow net metering or if you can better work energy arbitrage to sell when energy is most expensive and use the grid when it is cheap. But, for Houston at least, batteries make no sense unless you just want that whole house backup for power outages. 

For many areas, solar is already very viable, even without batteries.

Edited by Dahobbs
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2 hours ago, Bevo said:

Does anyone here have opinions on geothermal power? I am going to be building in the Northern Rockies.

I've had several homes I've designed use geothermal.  In the mountains it's probably damned expensive. You need to either drill 300' deep wells or you create a horizontal loop field.  Lots of rock in the mountains, and that drives the cost of drilling, and or excavation.

I love the system. Very efficient, long life for parts.  No outdoor compressors, only indoor pumps, and heat exchangers.  There was a federal tax credit of 33% that would basically pay for your wells.  Still a more expensive system than a straight gas or electric fueled forced air system.

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11 hours ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

You need to either drill 300' deep wells or you create a horizontal loop field.

With the horizontal loop field are tree roots a big problem? The horizontal field required is pretty large and it would be a shame to have to cut down a lot trees because of it.

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2 minutes ago, Bevo said:

With the horizontal loop field are tree roots a big problem? The horizontal field required is pretty large and it would be a shame to have to cut down a lot trees because of it.

They're gonna clear a space that's 8-12' deep, and sized to fit the continual looping you need to create the correct thermal mass, think septic system drain field I think it's 3-6' of width per pipe x about 50-100' in length).  It's the rock in the spoil in the mountains that's probably the issue though.  It just increases cost.

I prefer the vertical well system, because it's the best way to get consistent temps.  It gets you the highest temps, especially when you can get down into bedrock, which then translates to having excess heat to drain off. 

Horizontal systems are suscpetible to drought conditions. You need a consistent water jacket around the piping to keep the temps working for the system.   Which ever system you choose, get guys who have a proven track record of installing closed loop systems. You only got one chance to get it right. 

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1 hour ago, Nueces River Rat said:

Anyone familiar with Tesla's Solar panels ?      

 

0 - exorbitantly expensive in a 2.9 seconds...... heeeeeey ohhhhhhh.  

No don't really know that much, but would love to see his battery system actually work, and not price middle class folks out of it as an option.  If he can make a solar system perform like the 0-60 speed of a new generation Tesla it should be a home run.

I have done some limited reading on the Tesla roof shingles, and was not believing anything they said about them with regard to price or durability. Longevity, and durability are key issues for products cladding and covering your home, and the advertised cost was a blatant lie as I remember reading it. The ACTUAL cost per 100 sq. ft. would have been in the neighborhood of $2,500 per square, or more depending on the complexity of a roof system .

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21 hours ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

0 - exorbitantly expensive in a 2.9 seconds...... heeeeeey ohhhhhhh.  

No don't really know that much, but would love to see his battery system actually work, and not price middle class folks out of it as an option.  If he can make a solar system perform like the 0-60 speed of a new generation Tesla it should be a home run.

I have done some limited reading on the Tesla roof shingles, and was not believing anything they said about them with regard to price or durability. Longevity, and durability are key issues for products cladding and covering your home, and the advertised cost was a blatant lie as I remember reading it. The ACTUAL cost per 100 sq. ft. would have been in the neighborhood of $2,500 per square, or more depending on the complexity of a roof system .

I've seen the shingle thing and have to question how in the heck those things withstand the elements.  Like you said it might not be such a good thing to have them covering the most significant part of your home.  I'd stick to the conventional panels which sit on top of the existing roof.    

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11 minutes ago, Nueces River Rat said:

I've seen the shingle thing and have to question how in the heck those things withstand the elements.  Like you said it might not be such a good thing to have them covering the most significant part of your home.  I'd stick to the conventional panels which sit on top of the existing roof.    

I won't specific any exterior material without 10 years of real world application. That and the cost is out of this world expensive. 

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5 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

I won't specific any exterior material without 10 years of real world application. That and the cost is out of this world expensive. 

One thing I did hear and I should do some further follow up on this is that Tesla either self insures their product or offers insurance from a preferred carrier to cover any loses.  It can be expensive and depending where you live on the outrageous side to insure these things on your home insurance policy.  Hence this is one reason I don't think I see too many of here on the coast because windstorm coverage is already out of this world and is increasingly hard to afford or get especially if your structure is older and the roof is more than 15 years old.  At least on the replacement cost end of it.

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On 8/3/2020 at 8:41 AM, Nueces River Rat said:

Anyone familiar with Tesla's Solar panels ?      

 

That’s who I went with.  For panels, they are very competitive with other companies.  What got me to pull the trigger with them is their 2500 discount on powerwalls when installed concurrent with panels.  I also like their integrated app to control the system and monitor where the panels are sending power (house/grid/powerwalls) and what the powerwalls are doing (charging or discharging to house or grid).

Just approved the system design, so now on to the permitting process. 

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  • 4 weeks later...

@Onboard 2.0

 

Est. yearly production: 12,719 kWh

Hanwha 340W premium black panels

SolarEdge inverter

 

$130/mo

SDGE charges me about $300/mo for that usage, so it's a substantial savings.  No out-of-pocket, and no contract. If I want them to remove the panels from my roof, it's a $2500 charge.  

 

Edited by Gil Bang
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1 hour ago, Gil Bang said:

@Onboard 2.0

 

Est. yearly production: 12,719 kWh

Hanwha 340W premium black panels

SolarEdge inverter

 

$130/mo

SDGE charges me about $300/mo for that usage, so it's a substantial savings.  No out-of-pocket, and no contract. If I want them to remove the panels from my roof, it's a $2500 charge.  

 

Nice, that leaves more cash for hookers, and blow of course.  That doesn't have a power wall system to store energy does it ?  

Is the $130 true usage cost or are they getting subsidized ?

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[mention=684]Onboard 2.0[/mention]

 

Est. yearly production: 12,719 kWh

Hanwha 340W premium black panels

SolarEdge inverter

 

$130/mo

SDGE charges me about $300/mo for that usage, so it's a substantial savings.  No out-of-pocket, and no contract. If I want them to remove the panels from my roof, it's a $2500 charge.  

 



How long until you own the system?
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34 minutes ago, luke duke said:

 


How long until you own the system?

 

Never.  It's a straight rental.  

No contract period.  I can cancel anytime, and they shut off the panels and leave them in place.  If I want the panels removed, I pay $2500.

No out-of-pocket.   They pay all permitting and installation fees.  

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49 minutes ago, Updawg said:

What happens when you need a new roof?

Take the panels off, re-roof and re-install panels.  
 

In our experience shingle roofs and panels don‚Äôt mix too well. ¬†Further, tile roofs and panels REALLY¬†don‚Äôt mix too well. ¬†Both because the flashing kits provided by the panel system manufacturers are not good, require shingle or tile roof penetration¬†work and lots of panel installers say ‚Äúwe know what to do‚ÄĚ and they really have no clue and use a lot of plastic cement to cover up their butchery. ¬†
 

Standing seam metal roofs and solar panels go together nicely as the flashing kits can clip-on attach to the standing seam with no roof penetrations for the panel stands and then penetrate where the wiring harnesses go through the roof.  

Edited by deadshank
I’m talking straight up solar panels. Don’t know enough about Tesla products.
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A modern design with some mid century elements. Lots and lots of glass on the top floor back side but down stairs (upside down house, ground floor and basement that opens to the sloped land ... property cut out like a capital L) is mostly enclosed as are three sides of the upstairs. Expecting energy bills to be about $300 a month in the summer for 4000 sq ft. - down from $450 a month 3000 sq ft older less efficient design. But who knows until it’s done.  roof is a dark metal and the solar will just sit right on it with a similar color so it shouldn't be a huge detractor in design.  I was really concerned at one point having a flat roof, slightly below street level with pitched solar panels and I told the architect no, that detracts from the design.  yeah we will have them installed but with the roof at the solar panel minimum height, we should be ok though we may sacrifice some efficiencies for aesthetics to which I say, that's exactly right.  has to look good too.
Y U No consult w/ me re: probable fail points in your design?

Also, where (generically) is the build happening?

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We will have a standing seam roof in the design but I’ll ask about clips. Gf is the builder and she’s a rabbit hole researcher so I’m sure she’s gonna look at it.
"S-5 Clips".

www.englertinc.com%2Fs-5-clip-program-and-calculator.html&tbnid=asEj3gUVCMtFwM&vet=1&docid=ArK9oT0TI7CgsM&w=1000&h=733&source=sh%2Fx%2Fim

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Anyone had their roof replaced AFTER having solar panels installed?  I want to know the added cost of such.  Does insurance cover cost of removing and reinstalling panels as part of a roof replacement or is that all out of pocket?  Also, if roof is damaged from poor installation (something they could claim) do the still cover it?


Yes & yes.

As a roofing contractor, I dig 'em.

Insurance does indeed pay for R&R & if they are damaged somehow due to any activity that would damage a roof, the panels are equally covered.

Do you need a separate endorsement for the panels?

That is something I cannot speak to.

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55 minutes ago, luke duke said:

How long is the warranty?

Lifetime. 

They own, maintain, and insure the system.  The only thing that the customer is asked to do is hose the panels off once in a while to keep them reasonably clean.   I've already figured out how to rig a pressure sprayer with a piece of PVC pipe, so I intend to clean mine every week or two.  

I am liable for "gross negligence" on my part, and any damage due to "ball strikes".  I don't see that happening.  

 

Oh, I also agree to provide internet access so the system can be monitored.  

Edited by Gil Bang
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9 minutes ago, Gil Bang said:

Lifetime. 

They own, maintain, and insure the system.  The only thing that the customer is asked to do is hose the panels off once in a while to keep them reasonably clean.   I've already figured out how to rig a pressure sprayer with a piece of PVC pipe, so I intend to clean mine every week or two.  

I am liable for "gross negligence" on my part, and any damage due to "ball strikes".  I don't see that happening.  

 

Oh, I also agree to provide internet access so the system can be monitored.  

And that's their in... you're now the property of (insert co. name) black mail letters, screen shots of your porn visits, your questions on the googlez about sexual disfunction issues to follow........

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14 hours ago, deadshank said:

Take the panels off, re-roof and re-install panels.  
 

In our experience shingle roofs and panels don‚Äôt mix too well. ¬†Further, tile roofs and panels REALLY¬†don‚Äôt mix too well. ¬†Both because the flashing kits provided by the panel system manufacturers are not good, require shingle or tile roof penetration¬†work and lots of panel installers say ‚Äúwe know what to do‚ÄĚ and they really have no clue and use a lot of plastic cement to cover up their butchery. ¬†
 

Standing seam metal roofs and solar panels go together nicely as the flashing kits can clip-on attach to the standing seam with no roof penetrations for the panel stands and then penetrate where the wiring harnesses go through the roof.  

 

Dumb question amnesty: What is a "standing seam" metal roof? Is that better than a "normal" metal roof?

 

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23 minutes ago, Gil Bang said:

Lifetime. 

They own, maintain, and insure the system.  The only thing that the customer is asked to do is hose the panels off once in a while to keep them reasonably clean.   I've already figured out how to rig a pressure sprayer with a piece of PVC pipe, so I intend to clean mine every week or two.  

I am liable for "gross negligence" on my part, and any damage due to "ball strikes".  I don't see that happening.  

 

Oh, I also agree to provide internet access so the system can be monitored.  

 

i wonder how much efficiency you lose with dusty panels. Anybody?

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4 minutes ago, High Plains Drifter said:

 

i wonder how much efficiency you lose with dusty panels. Anybody?

Depends. For instance, in the early spring in Houston I had to hose off our panels pretty frequently due to pollen. Not doing so would drop production by 50% and I'm sure it could go near zero given enough pollen. I think just normal dust is unlikely to build up to a significant enough degree to cause an issue. Rain and gravity seems enough to keep dust in check. 

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17 minutes ago, High Plains Drifter said:

 

Dumb question amnesty: What is a "standing seam" metal roof? Is that better than a "normal" metal roof?

 

16-24" wide x 8-20' long metal pans with the edges turned up about 1-2".  Set side by side one of the 1-2" turned up edges is turned/crimped  over the next edge or a pre manufactured cap is installed over those turned up edges.  Hand crimping looks best, and is the most authentic methods. 

The solar panel will attach to that turned up edge connection instead of penetrating the flat panel, making for a superior system 

Unknown-1.jpeg

Edited by Onboard 2.0
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Just now, Onboard 2.0 said:

16-24" wide x 8-20' long metal pans with the edges turned up about 1-2".  Set side by side one of the 1-2" turned up edges is turned/crimped  over the next edge or a

pre manufactured cap is installed over those turned up edges.  Hand crimping looks best, and is the most authentic methods. 

The solar panel will attach to that turned up edge connection instead of penetrating the flat panel, making for a superior system 

Unknown-1.jpeg

 

 

Ah, so no exposed screws = less leaks I assume? But also harder to replace the screws? I assume the rubber gaskets on the screws last longer since they are not in the sun?

 

 

 

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9 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

Depends. For instance, in the early spring in Houston I had to hose off our panels pretty frequently due to pollen. Not doing so would drop production by 50% and I'm sure it could go near zero given enough pollen. I think just normal dust is unlikely to build up to a significant enough degree to cause an issue. Rain and gravity seems enough to keep dust in check. 

I will report back in a month or two.   I intend to monitor these things closely, at least until the "new" wears off. 

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Just now, High Plains Drifter said:

 

 

Ah, so no exposed screws = less leaks I assume? But also harder to replace the screws? I assume the rubber gaskets on the screws last longer since they are not in the sun?

 

 

 

Correct, and the penetration in the turned up seam is above the roof plane where waters sheets off the roof, and will eventually leak thru any screw that has penetrated it.  It's a great roofing system, and is not cheap, but not like the price of slate, mission tile, or copper.  It's prevalent on old farmhouses as a classic American look, and would have been tin and painted with a red, green or silver paint every few years.  Today they come with a baked on color or metal finish or are built with real copper $$$$$$$$.

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43 minutes ago, High Plains Drifter said:

 

Dumb question amnesty: What is a "standing seam" metal roof? Is that better than a "normal" metal roof?

 

Everything @Onboard 2.0 said plus a little more nuance that I won’t go into.   
 

Onboard2.0 is my paid celebratory spokesman/gender-neutral entity 

@ROFL BOX does this kind of stuff, too, but mostly re-roof stuff in the greater Austin/SA area where as I do primarily new construction and a good amount of re-roofing in Houston.  
 

I’m a lot better looking and more fun to be around than both of them. 

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Depends. For instance, in the early spring in Houston I had to hose off our panels pretty frequently due to pollen. Not doing so would drop production by 50% and I'm sure it could go near zero given enough pollen. I think just normal dust is unlikely to build up to a significant enough degree to cause an issue. Rain and gravity seems enough to keep dust in check. 

Why don’t they just put windshield wipers on them?
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6 minutes ago, deadshank said:

Everything @Onboard 2.0 said plus a little more nuance that I won’t go into.   
 

Onboard2.0 is my paid celebratory spokesman/gender-neutral entity 

@ROFL BOX does this kind of stuff, too, but mostly re-roof stuff in the greater Austin/SA area where as I do primarily new construction and a good amount of re-roofing in Houston.  
 

I’m a lot better looking and more fun to be around than both of them. 

That whole gender neutral stuff was supposed to be on the down low brah !!   (and you using the word nuance speaks volumes).

Sent you a PM about a Texas project/question.

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