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Goo Punch

Luka Doncic

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So I think I have this straight.  Most people would probably agree that Luka has a higher ceiling than Dirk, which in and of itself is a serious mouthful.  But if you have the temerity to bring up any of the facts that support Dirk in any way then you are a blind neophyte.

Right?

 

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no, you don't have it straight. it's pretty simple-

1)Luka is already better than Dirk ever was. Never in Dirk's career was he as versatile or as talented as Luka is now. Vision, rebounding, ball handling, dynamism- Dirk at his very best was never as good as Luka is *now*.
 

2)Dirk is an all time great player and Luka has a very long way to go before being in the same class as Dirk. Luka hasn't been playing nearly long enough for that be the case. 

3)I'm having a tough time remembering anyone presenting actual facts which support the idea that Dirk is a better basketball player than Luka, but that's probably only because it's not true and therefore impossible to even post. 

got it? good.

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I mean, to say that Luka is a better basketball than Dirk ever was on a talent basis is patently objective. They have completely different styles of play and play in completely different eras. Dirk in this era would be a terror, and Luka in the Aughts would be...wasted. They’d probably have him posting up, or some shit.

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1 hour ago, Goo Punch said:

no, you don't have it straight. it's pretty simple-

1)Luka is already better than Dirk ever was. Never in Dirk's career was he as versatile or as talented as Luka is now. Vision, rebounding, ball handling, dynamism- Dirk at his very best was never as good as Luka is *now*.
 

2)Dirk is an all time great player and Luka has a very long way to go before being in the same class as Dirk. Luka hasn't been playing nearly long enough for that be the case. 

3)I'm having a tough time remembering anyone presenting actual facts which support the idea that Dirk is a better basketball player than Luka, but that's probably only because it's not true and therefore impossible to even post. 

got it? good.

As soon as Luka starts shooting better than 32% from 3 which he undoubtedly will I think you will be able to confidently state your hypothesis. (like you aren't already, harharhar).

Luka PER this season is a full 3 points higher than Dirk's highest of his career.

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28 minutes ago, Kermit said:

I mean, to say that Luka is a better basketball than Dirk ever was on a talent basis is patently objective.

ok then, name every actual basketball skill where Dirk is superior to Luka. actual basketball skill. no intangibles, nothing about him making just teammates better (because let's be real, Luka has all of the intangibles and clearly makes his teammates better). Go. 

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5 minutes ago, Goo Punch said:

ok then, name every actual basketball skill where Dirk is superior to Luka. actual basketball skill. no intangibles, nothing about him making just teammates better (because let's be real, Luka has all of the intangibles and clearly makes his teammates better). Go. 

Well, based on statistics Dirk > Luka 3P%.  

 

(ducks)

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Goo Punch said:

no, you don't have it straight. it's pretty simple-

1)Luka is already better than Dirk ever was. Never in Dirk's career was he as versatile or as talented as Luka is now. Vision, rebounding, ball handling, dynamism- Dirk at his very best was never as good as Luka is *now*.
 

2)Dirk is an all time great player and Luka has a very long way to go before being in the same class as Dirk. Luka hasn't been playing nearly long enough for that be the case. 

3)I'm having a tough time remembering anyone presenting actual facts which support the idea that Dirk is a better basketball player than Luka, but that's probably only because it's not true and therefore impossible to even post. 

got it? good.

 

Luka is on pace for juuuust under 14 win shares this season. Dirk had 5 seasons > 14 with a peak of 17.7. 

And honestly it'll all come down to what Luka can do in half court offense in the playoffs. All the other stuff is great, but it's not what drives championship runs. Dirk getting the rock in the high post(edit: or in a pick and roll/pop) is on a very short list of the best offensive options in the playoffs since the turn of the century. I sure as shit hope that Luka is just as effective, but we haven't gotten to see it yet.

Edited by TommyGufano

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1 hour ago, Goo Punch said:

ok then, name every actual basketball skill where Dirk is superior to Luka. actual basketball skill. no intangibles, nothing about him making just teammates better (because let's be real, Luka has all of the intangibles and clearly makes his teammates better). Go. 

Shooting, rebounding.

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27 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

Shooting, rebounding.

Luka is averaging more rebounds per game than Dirk did in his career and his FG% is higher than Dirk's career avg

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, immortal13 said:

Luka is averaging more rebounds per game than Dirk did in his career and his FG% is higher than Dirk's career avg

We can debate rebounding if you’d like but Luka is not near the level shooter that Dirk was. He finishes at the rim incredibly well but Dirk has a significant advantage in midrange and from 3. Luka is shooting .472 from the field this year and Dirk is .471 for his career so not much difference anyway

Edited by hobbes2702

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I'm not saying Dirk was a scrub. He was a 50/40/90 guy in one of his seasons. I'm not sure Luka will ever get to that level on 3's with the volume he is shooting, but I do expect his percentages in all areas to keep going up. He's got a long way to go to match Dirk's career accomplishments, but I think he has a higher ceiling than Dirk ever did.

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1 minute ago, immortal13 said:

I'm not saying Dirk was a scrub. He was a 50/40/90 guy in one of his seasons. I'm not sure Luka will ever get to that level on 3's with the volume he is shooting, but I do expect his percentages in all areas to keep going up. He's got a long way to go to match Dirk's career accomplishments, but I think he has a higher ceiling than Dirk ever did.

Well stated. 

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both dudes are ridiculous, that much we can all agree on. and, at the end of the day there is no Luka without Dirk. perhaps if Drazen Petrovic hadn't passed away then he'd be the guy, but imo Dirk was the first real Euro superstar who showed that Europeans could play the game at the very highest level, and that includes winning MVP and a title. Dirk is certainly an all-timer. 

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3 hours ago, Goo Punch said:

both dudes are ridiculous, that much we can all agree on. and, at the end of the day there is no Luka without Dirk. perhaps if Drazen Petrovic hadn't passed away then he'd be the guy, but imo Dirk was the first real Euro superstar who showed that Europeans could play the game at the very highest level, and that includes winning MVP and a title. Dirk is certainly an all-timer. 

That or if arvydas sabonis came over at 19. 

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8 hours ago, hobbes2702 said:

We can debate rebounding if you’d like but Luka is not near the level shooter that Dirk was. He finishes at the rim incredibly well but Dirk has a significant advantage in midrange and from 3. Luka is shooting .472 from the field this year and Dirk is .471 for his career so not much difference anyway

The fact that Dirk shot 47+% from 10ft-3pt line for his fucking career is what is beyond impressive.  That’s the shot you want people to take as a coach, and Dirk is averaging 1pt/possession for a career on that shot when you favor in FTA’s.  That’s beyond absurd.  
 

however, Luka has abilities that Dirk didn’t have.   Luka is quick, has incredible ball handling skills, and is an elite passer.   Dirk was a good passer out of the double team, a solid rebounder, and an underrated help side defender in his heyday.  Luka’s step back is deadly, his false delayed attack is scary/sneaky good, and he’s beyond entertaining.   
 

Dirk did things that were unheard of before and since, he’s an all timer.  Luka is doing things that haven’t been done in ages.  It’s gonna be a fun ride 

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Posted (edited)
On 12/30/2019 at 12:14 AM, Goo Punch said:

He's already better than Dirk at nearly everything. I know that's hard for a lot of people to swallow for some reason, but it's true. He could literally not improve at all over the next dozen years and he would still go down as a top 10 all time player. I honestly don't even understand how this is a debate. 

I'm just going to respectfully disagree. Doncic has played all of 100 non-playoff NBA games in a defense deficient league. I'm going to have to get just a little bit more of a sample size before I say that he is "better than Dirk at nearly everything." Especially because he's not better than Dirk at posting up. He's not a better shooter than Dirk. He's not better at finishing at the rim. He's not a better free throw shooter. Of course, he plays a completely different position than Dirk so it's kind of a stupid statement anyway and comparing apples to oranges.

Regardless, this take reeks of recency bias and you are horribly discounting the impact that Dirk had on the game and just how unstoppable he was offensively.  You just couldn't fucking guard him. Throw out all of the numbers you want from the 2011 finals because they are a giant heap of bullshit -- their entire offense was Dirk -- on the wing, at the top of the key, in the post, pretty much anywhere. Double him and he would make the right read and pass. Back off of him and he would shoot it in your face. Crowd him and he would take it to the hole. Put a smaller guy on him, they would post him up on the block.  And I know this has already been rehashed, but they had dogshit for talent around him. Tyson Chandler? Are you kidding me? One of the most offensively limited bigs to ever start on a championship team. Jason Kidd was 37 years old in that series for fuck's sake. If you want to give Rick Carlisle the credit then fine. But he's still the coach and I haven't seen another championship in Dallas since then. What a strange coincidence that he peaked as a coach at the same time as Dirk peaked as a player.

And for the record, I LOVE Doncic and his game. I was one of the first to sing his praises on the Shag, way before the draft. I couldn't believe what that kid was doing in Europe. And I HATE the Mavs. It's aggravating that I even feel compelled to respond to this troll post.

One last thing... go watch the  highlights below of him making one impossible shot after the next, and then tell me if this quote is still accurate:

Quote

So, there you have it. Dirk was fine (although if you take away his FT shooting his offensive numbers get pretty ugly), and he definitely stepped it up in a couple of different 4Q's, but in no way did he put the team on his back and carry them to a title. 2011 Dallas is the quintessential example of a team effort to win a title. Claiming that Dirk carried them there is 100% revisionist history. 

 

Edited by Mitch Cumsteen

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Luka is awesome to watch, but his game is going to have to evolve a bit, because he runs up and down the court like a 16 year-old and in 10 years (or less), he's not going to be able to do that. And he'll be 6'7", not 7'0".

I think that he's possibly the most exciting Maverick to watch, EVER, and that includes Roy Tarpley at his peak, I just don't know how long he'll be able to sustain it.

For now, Luka is PRIMETIME/Must See TV!

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6 hours ago, 52-80 said:

Luka has a way cleaner haircut than Dirk

Cleaner cut, sure. But Dirk had elite lettuce. Legendary flow.

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On 1/3/2020 at 11:22 PM, Mitch Cumsteen said:

I'm just going to respectfully disagree. Doncic has played all of 100 non-playoff NBA games in a defense deficient league. I'm going to have to get just a little bit more of a sample size before I say that he is "better than Dirk at nearly everything." Especially because he's not better than Dirk at posting up. He's not a better shooter than Dirk. He's not better at finishing at the rim. He's not a better free throw shooter. Of course, he plays a completely different position than Dirk so it's kind of a stupid statement anyway and comparing apples to oranges.

Regardless, this take reeks of recency bias and you are horribly discounting the impact that Dirk had on the game and just how unstoppable he was offensively.  You just couldn't fucking guard him. Throw out all of the numbers you want from the 2011 finals because they are a giant heap of bullshit -- their entire offense was Dirk -- on the wing, at the top of the key, in the post, pretty much anywhere. Double him and he would make the right read and pass. Back off of him and he would shoot it in your face. Crowd him and he would take it to the hole. Put a smaller guy on him, they would post him up on the block.  And I know this has already been rehashed, but they had dogshit for talent around him. Tyson Chandler? Are you kidding me? One of the most offensively limited bigs to ever start on a championship team. Jason Kidd was 37 years old in that series for fuck's sake. If you want to give Rick Carlisle the credit then fine. But he's still the coach and I haven't seen another championship in Dallas since then. What a strange coincidence that he peaked as a coach at the same time as Dirk peaked as a player.

And for the record, I LOVE Doncic and his game. I was one of the first to sing his praises on the Shag, way before the draft. I couldn't believe what that kid was doing in Europe. And I HATE the Mavs. It's aggravating that I even feel compelled to respond to this troll post.

One last thing... go watch the  highlights below of him making one impossible shot after the next, and then tell me if this quote is still accurate:

 

Well said. Harden is considered one of the best players of this generation in the regular season but takes a lot of shit for how her fares in the playoffs. Let's wait and see what Luka does in the playoffs when teams pay attention to defense more and the energy level is cranked up. And as you said, Dirk is a better shooter and FT shooter than Luka. Better around the rim. He also had a pretty unstoppable move once he mastered it which was going in the post. Took him awhile to implement it. I love the Luka hype as a Mavs fan but some people are taking it a little overboard in their assessments. Such as if he never improves one bit, he'd already be a top 10 player ever? And he already is better than Dirk ever was at everything? Tap the fucking brakes. Was Luka better early on than Dirk was early on? Of course. But to say Luka is better right now than Dirk ever was is pretty ridiculous. Remember, Dirk also took the league by storm early in his career. 

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15 minutes ago, Vic Mackey said:

But to say Luka is better right now than Dirk ever was is pretty ridiculous. 

No, it's just a factually correct statement. Every single argument made in this thread that tries to deny this has been largely/exclusively based on Dirk's career accomplishments, when the discussion is not about that at all. Dirk on his very best day literally could not pull off the moves that Luka displayed in that one little clip i just posted. I mean this entire thing is just comical. At this point the argument boils down to one simple thing: you either understand the difference in a player's ability and his career accomplishments, or you don't. 

As for the comparisons to A)James Harden and B)Dirk "storming the league" when he arrived, A)Luka and Harden could not be more different players. Luka makes everyone around him better, while Harden is...Harden. And B)lots of players have entered the league and created a buzz, but nobody in my lifetime aside from LeBron James has done what Luka is doing. Not Jordan, not KD, not even Grant Hill, who probably comes closest, and who by the way was a better all around player than Dirk Nowitzki, even if he didn't have as great a career.

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On 1/3/2020 at 10:07 AM, Goo Punch said:

no, you don't have it straight. it's pretty simple-

1)Luka is already better than Dirk ever was. Never in Dirk's career was he as versatile or as talented as Luka is now. Vision, rebounding, ball handling, dynamism- Dirk at his very best was never as good as Luka is *now*.
 

2)Dirk is an all time great player and Luka has a very long way to go before being in the same class as Dirk. Luka hasn't been playing nearly long enough for that be the case. 

3)I'm having a tough time remembering anyone presenting actual facts which support the idea that Dirk is a better basketball player than Luka, but that's probably only because it's not true and therefore impossible to even post. 

got it? good.

Basically what I am gathering is that Luka is better because you have seen more of high highlight plays than you have from Dirk and because Luka is more "dynamic" aka "more fun to watch". Neither of which make him a better basketball player than Dirk. To say that Luka, a second year player is already better than a future HOFer and absolute legend in the game is incredibly ignorant. Had you said that Luka will likely develop into a better player than Dirk it would be slightly more understandable, but this is blasphemous. It sounds like you probably think that Harden is better than Olajuwon too 

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21 minutes ago, Jim Tressell’s Vest said:

Basically what I am gathering is that Luka is better because you have seen more of high highlight plays than you have from Dirk and because Luka is more "dynamic" aka "more fun to watch". Neither of which make him a better basketball player than Dirk. To say that Luka, a second year player is already better than a future HOFer and absolute legend in the game is incredibly ignorant. Had you said that Luka will likely develop into a better player than Dirk it would be slightly more understandable, but this is blasphemous. It sounds like you probably think that Harden is better than Olajuwon too 

man, what a substantive post, full of facts, stats, and anecdotal evidence which support your argument! you definitely addressed the things that i've actually said and rebutted them. great job!

 

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21 minutes ago, Jim Tressell’s Vest said:

"Will be" not "is already"

he literally says, "I have great respect for Dirk, but he is not Luka Doncic." Is. Present tense. Because Luka is already *clearly* a better basketball player than Dirk. 

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49 minutes ago, Goo Punch said:

At this point the argument boils down to one simple thing: you either understand the difference in a player's ability and his career accomplishments, or you don't. 

Or you understand the difference better being better skilled and just being flat out better, or you don't. One or the other.

Harden is actually a great example to bring up. He's posted regular season stats better than Luka's for six years running now, has won an MVP, and was in the conversation for 3 more. He's obviously incredibly skilled. Even more so than most of the greats. Yet no one credible would say that he's better right now than Hakeem or Duncan or Shaq or even Kobe ever were. I wonder why that is?

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9 minutes ago, Goo Punch said:

man, what a substantive post, full of facts, stats, and anecdotal evidence which support your argument! you definitely addressed the things that i've actually said and rebutted them. great job!

 

That does sound exactly like what I did actually. You think Harden is better than Hakeem don't you?

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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, aggie08 said:

Or you understand the difference better being better skilled and just being flat out better, or you don't. One or the other.

jesus christ aggie, you are too smart for this. this entire debate started when i mentioned how much more skilled Doncic already was than Dirk. the conversation IS EXCLUSIVELY ABOUT BASKETBALL SKILL.
 

at least it was, before a fucking thundering herd of people who apparently can't read came in and completely warped the argument into a million different tangential arguments which are similar to, but not actually the same as the original fucking premise. fuck. 

Edited by Goo Punch

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, Jim Tressell’s Vest said:

That does sound exactly like what I did actually. You think Harden is better than Hakeem don't you?

you did not approach making a single cogent point, but i believe you that you think you did. also, there is no more sure sign that someone knows fuck all about what they're talking about than resorting to ad hominem theoretical accusations.

Edited by Goo Punch

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Posted (edited)

Derka, you've said multiple times that Luka is better, not just more skilled. Along with other huge leaps like being Top 10 All-Time even if he doesn't get any better. This is entirely on you, man. 

Edited by aggie08

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2 minutes ago, Goo Punch said:

you did not approach making a single cogent point, but i believe you that you think you did. also, there is no more sure sign that someone knows fuck all about what they're talking about than resorting to ad hominem theoretical accusations.

You literally argued that Doncic is more dynamic than Dirk and that is exactly what I refuted. Do you think Harden is better than Hakeem? 

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Posted (edited)
23 minutes ago, aggie08 said:

Or you understand the difference better being better skilled and just being flat out better, or you don't. One or the other.

Harden is actually a great example to bring up. He's posted regular season stats better than Luka's for six years running now, has won an MVP, and was in the conversation for 3 more. He's obviously incredibly skilled. Even more so than most of the greats. Yet no one credible would say that he's better right now than Hakeem or Duncan or Shaq or even Kobe ever were. I wonder why that is?

like, think about who you're talking to right now. I'm the guy who spent years arguing with this entire board that J'Covan Brown was not as good of a basketball player as his skill ser or scoring totals said he was, for a litany reasons very similar to what you're talking about with Dirk vs Doncic right now. there's more to how good you are as a player than talent or ability to put up numbers. i know that. i understand what every single one of you is saying. and when this started, the entire point was not "Luka has more skills therefore he his already better", it was, "he already has more skills than Dirk ever did." period. end of story. that's the only point i made when this started, and that's all i'm saying now. should never have controversial to begin with. 

Edited by Goo Punch

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3 minutes ago, Goo Punch said:

like, think about who you're talking to right now. I'm the guy who spent years arguing with this entire board that J'Covan Brown was not as good of a basketball player as his skill stats or scoring totals said he was, for a litany reasons very similar to what you're talking about with Dirk vs Doncic right now. there's more to how good you are as a player than talent or ability to put up numbers. i know that. i understand what every single one of you is saying. and when this started, the entire point was not "Luka has more skills therefore he his already better", it was, "he already has more skills than Dirk ever did." period. end of story. that's the only point i made when this started, and that's all i'm aging now. should never have controversial to begin with. 

Well that isn't what you have been saying recently, and he doesn't have better skills. He has different, more exciting skills

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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, aggie08 said:

Derka, you've said multiple times that Luka is better, not just more skilled. Along with other huge leaps like being Top 10 All-Time even if he doesn't get any better. This is entirely on you, man. 

yes, he is already better at "almost everything", that's exactly what i said. if i didn't repeat that exact same verbiage throughout this fucking retarded, off track argument then you'll have to forgive me, as it's been pretty hard to keep up with so many tangential posts being made and then replied to. 

the comment about him not getting better for the next dozen years was simply to say that, because he's already playing at a near triple double per night clip, plus providing his team with the actual substance to back up the stats, that if we looked up 12 years from now and he had simply maintained his current form (when we know that the 20 year is old is only going to get better) then you'd be looking at a player who was certainly in that conversation. 

Edited by Goo Punch

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Posted (edited)
20 minutes ago, Goo Punch said:

i understand what every single one of you is saying. and when this started, the entire point was not "Luka has more skills therefore he his already better", it was, "he already has more skills than Dirk ever did." period. end of story.

I guess I'm just missing the nuance when you say things like this:

On 1/3/2020 at 8:07 AM, Goo Punch said:

I'm having a tough time remembering anyone presenting actual facts which support the idea that Dirk is a better basketball player than Luka, but that's probably only because it's not true and therefore impossible to even post. 

From where I'm sitting, it sure sounds like your judgement on what makes a better basketball player is the summation of one's skills and abilities. Most of us just--mostly respectfully--disagree. It's really that simple.

But literally everyone here thinks that Luka is fucking amazing, so, you're right, we're just arguing semantics.

Edited by aggie08

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6 minutes ago, aggie08 said:

I guess I'm just missing the nuance when you say things like this:

From where I'm sitting, it sure sounds like your judgement on what makes a better basketball player is the summation of one's skills and abilities. Most of us just--mostly respectfully--disagree. It's really that simple.

But literally everyone here thinks that Luka is fucking amazing, so, you're right, we're just arguing semantics.

you can't expect me to make this many posts in one thread and not eventually put my foot in my mouth, that's just fair. REMEMBER WHO YOU ARE TALKING TO AGGIE!

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Dirk figured out how to convert his talent and skills into wins.  He did it every year from around year 2/3 of his career to about year 17.  There have been players with more talent and skills than Dirk that either couldn’t figure it out or didn’t care about figuring it out once they got paid.  There are certainly external factors that come into play(quality of team, organization, etc.), but Dirk basically guaranteed the playoffs for a 15 year period with different coaches and teammates, and the Mavs had homecourt advantage in the first round most of the time in an absolutely stacked Western conference.  It’s why Dirk is a better player than Melo even though their  stats are similar.
 

Is Luka more talented than Dirk?  Probably.  Is he more skilled? He certainly has more tools in his toolbox.  But until he converts the talent and skills into wins, it really doesn’t matter.  He’s taken a big step forward this year, I certainly hope he keeps it up.  When we get to the point that the Mavs consistently being a top 4 seed is a given before the season even starts, then he’ll be there.

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54 minutes ago, Goo Punch said:

man, what a substantive post, full of facts, stats, and anecdotal evidence which support your argument! you definitely addressed the things that i've actually said and rebutted them. great job!

 

This is why people don't like you, Derka

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There's also a very good chance--judging from his performances in Real Madrid's biggest games--that he'll take the playoffs by storm, go punch for punch with the best the league currently has to offer in LA (one or both), and show that he doesn't need the requisite couple of years of postseason experience/seasoning and lump taking that befalls most mere mortal superstars. Most of us are just waiting (eagerly) to see.

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25 minutes ago, aggie08 said:

There's also a very good chance--judging from his performances in Real Madrid's biggest games--that he'll take the playoffs by storm, go punch for punch with the best the league currently has to offer in LA (one or both), and show that he doesn't need the requisite couple of years of postseason experience/seasoning and lump taking that befalls most mere mortal superstars. Most of us are just waiting (eagerly) to see.

for sure. dude was unbelievably clutch for RM at such a young age, and he openly embraced the big moments, like, "yeah, bring this shit on." i'm very eager to watch him in the playoffs for (hopefully) the next decade+.

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47 minutes ago, aggie08 said:

There's also a very good chance--judging from his performances in Real Madrid's biggest games--that he'll take the playoffs by storm, go goo punch for punch with the best the league currently has to offer in LA (one or both), and show that he doesn't need the requisite couple of years of postseason experience/seasoning and lump taking that befalls most mere mortal superstars. Most of us are just waiting (eagerly) to see.

fify

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5 hours ago, Goo Punch said:

 

Jerry's off his meds. Not because of his opinion here, because maybe time will prove him right. I just think he's off his meds.

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Posted (edited)
On 12/30/2019 at 11:41 AM, gsoda3 said:

I don't think it's preposterous to say Luka's skill set at this point in time is better than Dirk's was at any point of his career. Obviously a player's greatness takes more than that in to consideration which is why no one is saying luka is greater than Dirk right now. But in terms of shooting, rebounding, scoring, assists... I think Luka is better. Can he take an entire team on his shoulders and will his way to a championship? Can he sustain that level over 2 decades? Remains to be seen.

Edited because you amended your original statement. If Luka had Dirk's shooting ability we could place him in the all time top ten today.

 

Edited by AngryDragon

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Edited because you amended your original statement. If Luka had Dirk's shooting ability we could place him in the all time top ten today.
 
What exactly did i amend?

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