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GabrielsHorn

FBI vs. NCAA Coaches

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Good for the NCAA for standing up for itself for a change. Of course, if their case hinges on adidas being a booster, that's gonna be a tough sell to the infractions committee because I don't think such a thing has ever been ruled on before.

This was a good column in the Indianapolis Star about the new penalty procedure. It's pretty much an unknown right now, but one thing that's clear is that once penalties are announced, that's the end of it. No more gutting the rulings in appeals. And that scares the fuck out of the schools.

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11 hours ago, LTtxfan said:

https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/29147741/ncaa-enforcement-office-calls-kansas-violations-egregious-severe

 

NCAA enforcement office calls Kansas' violations 'egregious, severe' 

Mark Schlabach    ESPN Senior Writer  4:38 PM CT 

So they gonna hand down punishment for this upcoming season (which will likely be a lost season anyway due to covid)?

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Posted (edited)

I haven't gotten through it yet, but what I have read shows that the NCAA is grasping in some areas.  There is a part where they use Bill Self wearing an adidas shirt and dollar sign chain as proof that KU knew what was going on.  Whether you believe KU was complicit or not, or whether it can be proven that KU was complicit or not, that is absolutely not how you demonstrate a case.  I've been told there is another part where they use the Snoop Dogg performance as evidence that KU is guilty.  Finally, saying KU is defiant in their knowledge of what was going on as evidence KU is guilty doesn't really smell right.  Basically saying "they won't admit guilt so that means they must be guilty."

I also found these quotes on Reddit:

Mike Brey on shoe companies - this is interesting because there is no correspondence between KU coaches and adidas about paying money, just saying "we need guys".

Quote

“It kind of shocked me,” says Notre Dame coach Mike Brey, who recently served as president of the National Association of Basketball Coaches. “I never thought of it like that. If there’s money changing hands, then yeah, they’re a booster, but I don’t think any of us look at the support we get from sneaker companies and think of that as violations. They’re giving us information to help close the deal (with recruits).” It’s confusing, to say the least, for the NCAA to claim that coaches are putting themselves in jeopardy by working so closely with sneaker companies. Part of the NCAA’s evidence against Kansas coach Bill Self and his assistant Kurtis Townsend are text messages revealed at trial that showed them encouraging Gassnola to help them out. That kind of dialogue may look suspicious to the public, but it’s hardly unusual. “Every one of us works the shoe company angle to help us get players,” Brey says. “I speak to those guys as much as I would speak to parents. No question if there was an Under Armour event somewhere, I’d get a call from someone at Under Armour saying, ‘Hey Mike, did you see this 15-year-old kid in Dallas? He’s in our program, you gotta get on him.’ I’m not saying they’d cheat to get him, but damn right they’re helping, absolutely.”

Here is an attorney that argues cases against the NCAA.

Quote

The argument came as a surprise to others who have been involved in the NCAA’s enforcement process. “When I first saw they were classifying Adidas as a booster, my initial reaction was honestly, that’s a slippery slope,” says Molly Richman, an Indianapolis attorney who spent six years on the NCAA’s enforcement staff and now represents universities in infractions cases. “If the enforcement staff is making the argument that just because Kansas has a contract with Adidas then that makes Adidas a booster, I think that’s incredibly unusual. It would have far-reaching implications because that would basically mean that any corporate entity that has a contract with the school is a booster of that school.”

 

I'll probably read the full report this weekend but I'm sure it is filled with exactly what I expect it to be filled with.  KU isn't giving an inch and the NCAA is posturing like they know KU is guilty.  It'll be interesting to see what evidence they present.

Edited by Jhawk

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Jhawk 

    Only problem of your argument is NCAA is not a court of law. If it looks like a cheat, smells like a cheat, and acts like a cheat. KU basketball is a voluntary member of NCAA. 

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There is no doubt in my mind that we absolutely were.  But this isn't about what I think or what others think.  It is about what can be proven to an independent committee.  Saying you're guilty of X because you wore an adidas t-shirt isn't proof of shit.

As a complete aside that has no bearing on the case, it is an interesting position to take that schools in KU's position are completely undermining the college model when the NCAA has now approved, and is moving in the next sports year to, allow corporations to pay players.  If/when KU gets their punishment they will be serving it while it is legal for all teams to do what is alleged against KU.  Kind of like having people locked up in San Quinton for selling weed when it is 100% legal in the state that San Quinton sit in.

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1 minute ago, Shaddie said:

Jhawk 

    Only problem of your argument is NCAA is not a court of law. If it looks like a cheat, smells like a cheat, and acts like a cheat. KU basketball is a voluntary member of NCAA. 

This is the wildcard in my opinion.  Reading a little more, it sounds like the NCAA takes some real shots at Bill Self.  It wouldn't surprise me if this does end up in the court of law and the NCAA is on the other end of a defamation suit.  Knowing that KU is defiant and willing to take it to court might heavily influence the NCAA's penalty position.  I've heard one attorney comment on the practice of unequal punishments as well.  The release of the NOA against Louisville and how the exact same crimes only garnered level 2 violations could be an interesting defense angle in court.

This is going to be an interesting summer for KU and the NCAA. 

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I haven't gotten through it yet, but what I have read shows that the NCAA is grasping in some areas.  There is a part where they use Bill Self wearing an adidas shirt and dollar sign chain as proof that KU knew what was going on.  Whether you believe KU was complicit or not, or whether it can be proven that KU was complicit or not, that is absolutely not how you demonstrate a case.  I've been told there is another part where they use the Snoop Dogg performance as evidence that KU is guilty.  Finally, saying KU is defiant in their knowledge of what was going on as evidence KU is guilty doesn't really smell right.  Basically saying "they won't admit guilt so that means they must be guilty." I also found these quotes on Reddit: Mike Brey on shoe companies - this is interesting because there is no correspondence between KU coaches and adidas about paying money, just saying "we need guys".

 

 

“It kind of shocked me,” says Notre Dame coach Mike Brey, who recently served as president of the National Association of Basketball Coaches. “I never thought of it like that. If there’s money changing hands, then yeah, they’re a booster, but I don’t think any of us look at the support we get from sneaker companies and think of that as violations. They’re giving us information to help close the deal (with recruits).” It’s confusing, to say the least, for the NCAA to claim that coaches are putting themselves in jeopardy by working so closely with sneaker companies. Part of the NCAA’s evidence against Kansas coach Bill Self and his assistant Kurtis Townsend are text messages revealed at trial that showed them encouraging Gassnola to help them out. That kind of dialogue may look suspicious to the public, but it’s hardly unusual. “Every one of us works the shoe company angle to help us get players,” Brey says. “I speak to those guys as much as I would speak to parents. No question if there was an Under Armour event somewhere, I’d get a call from someone at Under Armour saying, ‘Hey Mike, did you see this 15-year-old kid in Dallas? He’s in our program, you gotta get on him.’ I’m not saying they’d cheat to get him, but damn right they’re helping, absolutely.” Here is an attorney that argues cases against the NCAA.

 

The argument came as a surprise to others who have been involved in the NCAA’s enforcement process. “When I first saw they were classifying Adidas as a booster, my initial reaction was honestly, that’s a slippery slope,” says Molly Richman, an Indianapolis attorney who spent six years on the NCAA’s enforcement staff and now represents universities in infractions cases. “If the enforcement staff is making the argument that just because Kansas has a contract with Adidas then that makes Adidas a booster, I think that’s incredibly unusual. It would have far-reaching implications because that would basically mean that any corporate entity that has a contract with the school is a booster of that school.”   I'll probably read the full report this weekend but I'm sure it is filled with exactly what I expect it to be filled with.  KU isn't giving an inch and the NCAA is posturing like they know KU is guilty.  It'll be interesting to see what evidence they present.

 

 

 

   

Good grief the mental gymnastics homers go through to avoid reality is amazing.

 

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4 minutes ago, Dbeasy said:

   

Good grief the mental gymnastics homers go through to avoid reality is amazing.

 

It's JHawk's specialty.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Jhawk said:

There is no doubt in my mind that we absolutely were.  But this isn't about what I think or what others think.  It is about what can be proven to an independent committee.  Saying you're guilty of X because you wore an adidas t-shirt isn't proof of shit.

As a complete aside that has no bearing on the case, it is an interesting position to take that schools in KU's position are completely undermining the college model when the NCAA has now approved, and is moving in the next sports year to, allow corporations to pay players.  If/when KU gets their punishment they will be serving it while it is legal for all teams to do what is alleged against KU.  Kind of like having people locked up in San Quinton for selling weed when it is 100% legal in the state that San Quinton sit in.

1) I get the NCAA is inept but do you really think they would be taking this firm of a stance without evidence? 

2) The rules are the rules. Just because the model shifted doesn't exclude the fact that Kansas violated the rules. 

Edited by texasstrong12

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Paying players in return for endorsements, after a very public rule change, is completely different than leaning on adidas to pay recruits and their families to come to your school in the first place, which will remain a major violation in the foreseeable future.

The Snoop Dogg stuff is typical sprinkles added to a case to give the committee an overall sense of KU's disdain for the rules. The ruling will hinge on whether the investigators think the level of involvement KU granted adidas in the payment/recruiting process was large enough to classify as a booster.

I would doubt that works, but as the IndyStar article points out, the new NCAA "jury" consists of investigators from private firms with national security backgrounds. No more former ADs and campus eggheads. And whatever they rule is binding with no right to appeal.

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On 5/7/2020 at 7:34 PM, Bartles said:

Good for the NCAA for standing up for itself for a change.

This line...WTF does it mean?  The NCAA runs roughshod over its members, almost arbitrarily enforcing rules and regulations. They are inconsistent as hell, and additionally spineless in the face of real transgressions.

Who’s been running train on the NCAA?

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I just meant they are using much stronger language than usual for a blueblood case. I don't expect them to follow through successfully

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Iceman said:

This line...WTF does it mean?  The NCAA runs roughshod over its members, almost arbitrarily enforcing rules and regulations. They are inconsistent as hell, and additionally spineless in the face of real transgressions.

Who’s been running train on the NCAA?

We just watched Missouri get pounded for cooperating and going about the process the way the NCAA wants you to. That as much as anything prompted KU’s general attitude of “fuck off”.

If this were a court of law, KU would cruise, given what’s in the FBI case. It’s not a court of law, so we’ll see.

Edited by VolenteHawk

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Posted (edited)
23 hours ago, Jhawk said:

There is no doubt in my mind that we absolutely were.  But this isn't about what I think or what others think.  It is about what can be proven to an independent committee.  Saying you're guilty of X because you wore an adidas t-shirt isn't proof of shit.

 

Been watching "A Few Good Men" lately @Jhawk ??

 

Edited by LTtxfan

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Posted (edited)

Ouch...

Kansas Did Nothing to Stop Adidas's T.J. Gassnola, and That's Why It's in This Mess

With the tacit welcome of Bill Self, Gassnola was allowed to break rules to help the program, and now the chickens have come home to roost.

PAT FORDE.              18 HOURS AGO

Quote

David Reed, whose job at Kansas is NCAA rules compliance, compared T.J. Gassnola to infamous 20th century mobster Lucky Luciano.

Reed described him thusly to NCAA investigators: “He’s a parasite taking advantage of kids and riding their coattails to be a jock sniffer to power coaches and power players in the industry. … “ Reed said he asked the Kansas ticket manager, Scott Hahn, about Gassnola and was told, “Just Google him, he’s a scum bag.” Google don’t lie: Reed found out Gassnola had been a runner for agent Andy Miller, had his AAU team suspended by the NCAA and had a criminal record.

Sean Lester is the deputy athletic director at Kansas, essentially the No. 2 man in the department. According to NCAA Enforcement, Lester was sufficiently concerned about Gassnola’s presence around the Jayhawks that he asked the head of Adidas North America, Mark King, outside a meeting about Gassnola’s role with the company. King told Lester that Gassnola is a consultant, and that was that.

Sheahon Zenger was the athletic director at Kansas from 2011-18. He saw Gassnola in the hallways of the school’s athletic offices, and interacted with him at coach Bill Self’s Hall of Fame induction in early September 2017—where Adidas paid $250,000 to throw a party in celebration of both Self and former Adidas client Tracy McGrady’s induction. Zenger said Lester shared his concerns about Gassnola with him, but Adidas “assured (Lester) he was on the up-and-up.”

Those are the NCAA Enforcement accounts of three Kansas senior athletic administrators regarding the bagman who came home to roost in Lawrence. They didn’t like T.J. Gassnola, didn’t trust him—and didn’t do a thing to curtail his access to Self’s program. Those accounts were all part of the NCAA’s 92-page response to the school, the final follow-up phase from its 2019 Notice of Allegations.

It is a one-sided document filed in response to Kansas’s own one-sided document, the latter of which refutes almost everything the NCAA alleges. Among the disagreements was how vigilant the school could and should have been regarding Gassnola, who became a star cooperating witness at one of the federal college basketball corruption trials and testified to paying multiple former players, including multiple Jayhawks.

But if you want to know why Kansas is facing a Level One charge for lack of institutional control and failure to monitor its men’s basketball program, the hands-off approach to Gassnola (and other Adidas reps) is your answer. It is one of five Level One allegations against the school, making this the most aggressive NOA to date from the NCAA in the wake of the federal investigation of the sport. (Auburn, which won’t publicly confirm or deny receipt of its NOA, might be sitting on a doozy as well. And we don’t yet know what might await LSU or Arizona.)

The fundamental flashpoint of debate between the NCAA and Kansas revolves around Gassnola and others on the Adidas payroll. The NCAA says Gassnola, James Gatto, Merl Code and David Cutler were representatives of Kansas’s athletics interest, and thus were boosters, working to put players in Jayhawks uniforms. The school says they weren’t boosters, just Adidas employees trying to help the company and not any particular school, and thus Kansas cannot be held accountable for the raft of rules they broke on its behalf.

It will be up to the NCAA Committee on Infractions (or possibly the new Independent Accountability Resolution Process) to rule on that. But if you can navigate through the turgid waters of NCAA parlance and definitions, the crux of the matter is this: Kansas, which once famously proclaimed its victimhood at the hands of Adidas, welcomed Gassnola into its orbit and never lifted a finger to monitor him—despite his “scum bag” status in the eyes of the administration.

Why? Because Self obviously wanted him involved. And nobody at Kansas—including his titular superiors—was going to question a national champion coach who owned the Big 12. Nobody in the Kansas administration questioned Self about Gassnola’s association with the program.

What Bill Self wanted, Bill Self got. That includes tens of millions of dollars during his Kansas tenure to date. And now it includes Level One NCAA allegations that could result in massive penalties for both the school and the coach.

Self has taken the position that Gassnola was basically just part of the AAU/sneaker circuit scenery. Someone who is around, and who his program dealt with, but not someone it relied on for help in recruiting. That’s despite the text exchanges between the two that were revealed in court and are part of the NCAA’s NOA, in which Gassnola says helping Self is his top priority. (That’s after Self texts Gassnola that they “just got to get some real guys.”)

If Bill Self had spent the first 15 years of the 21st century coaching in Turkmenistan and then suddenly arrived in college basketball, he might not have any idea what Gassnola’s reputation and track record were within the sport. But that wasn’t Self’s career path. He was one of the most accomplished recruiters of high-end talent in the sport, which meant immersion in the grassroots culture that elevated Gassnola to a well-compensated fixture.

Everyone knew T.J. And everyone knew how T.J. operated.

Yet there he was with Kansas at the 2015 Maui Invitational—prompting Reed to wonder why an Adidas grassroots guy would be in attendance at a marquee tournament in Hawaii. And there he was (along with Gatto) at the same on-campus hotel as prospective recruit Billy Preston when Preston made his official visit.

Kansas will tell you that Gassnola and Gatto booked their own rooms at the Oread Hotel and were not part of the institution’s room block. And they will tell you they could not prevent Gassnola from offering money to Preston and his mother in his hotel room during that visit. But the NCAA says assistant coach Kurtis Townsend saw Gassnola with Preston and his mother at the hotel after Kansas’s Late Night season-opening event, and did nothing with that information.

Why would he? To the Jayhawks staff, Gassnola was a known friend of the program, not a rogue threat who was victimizing Kansas basketball. He was helping recruiting.

The school administrators who were uneasy about Gassnola either didn’t have the juice to challenge Self or, just as likely, fully suspected what was up and accepted it as a risky byproduct of doing business. The NCAA NOA quotes Reed himself, from a compliance seminar, acknowledging exactly that:

“(T)hese shoe companies are employing less than desirable individuals in their grass roots areas and we are placed in an impossible situation because we cannot dictate who the shoe companies hire or send to our universities. And in that same comment, I said this Adidas parades T.J. Gassnola to our campus and this guy has the same rap sheet as Lucky Luciano.”

But poor victimized Kansas, the flagship program that Adidas tirelessly catered to, had no power to request a different Adidas hanger-on.

Fact is, if you win recruiting battles for five-star talent, as Kansas routinely has, you deal with Gassnolas. Hell, you want and need the Gassnolas.

Then, when everything blows up, everyone has to play their roles. Administrators must proclaim their profound shock that payments to players and their families could occur.

Even after the entire underground economy was exposed by the FBI and Southern District of New York in late September 2017, Kansas didn’t exactly rush to disassociate from Gassnola. Gatto was arrested, so kicking him to the curb (and ultimately trying to gouge money out of him in court) was an easy call. But the school argued that it still had no reason to know Gassnola was trouble even after the Adidas schemes were revealed.

And yet … when Preston wrecked a very nice car on campus in November and the school was forced to deal with that sudden potential scandal, Reed closed his compliance interview with Preston’s mother by asking if she knew T.J. Gassnola.

Turns out she did—she received an alleged $89,000 from Gassnola in various payments. And that’s why Preston never played at Kansas.

Reed’s deeply held suspicions turned out to be correct. But neither the school’s compliance director nor any other Kansas administrator ever did a thing to stop the bagman from coming to roost in Lawrence, with the tacit welcome of Bill Self. And that’s why the Jayhawks are bitterly fighting for their future postseason lives with the NCAA.

 

https://www.si.com/college/2020/05/08/kansas-basketball-scandal-bill-self-tj-gassnola

Edited by LTtxfan

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Dunno if FBI related and likely nothing to come from this since it's Duke but worth posting.

 

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12 hours ago, Goodman said:

Dunno if FBI related and likely nothing to come from this since it's Duke but worth posting.

 

The rumor was that Zion's family received $300,000 for him to attend one semester of school at Duke, oh, and to play basketball for part of a second semester. I remember Duke's own investigation said that they were clean. We shall see.

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Would be ironic if NCSU got hammered after all the screaming they were doing when their brothers in Chapel Hill skated from their allegations. 

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