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15 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Again, what makes a fascist a fascist? 

This is something you should have learned in college. I'm not going to explain fascism to someone that is attempting to expand the meaning of fascism to include groups that were literally enemies of fascists. You are engaging in intellectual dishonesty.

My initial post was meant as a joke by pointing out that just being opposed to fascism isn't necessarily a good thing if what you propose isn't any better than what you oppose.

The original Antifa was associated with the KDP, I don't think the German people would have been better off had a Stalinist regime assumed power instead of the Nazis.

Long story short this thread is retarded.

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14 minutes ago, F250 said:

This is something you should have learned in college. I'm not going to explain fascism to someone that is attempting to expand the meaning of fascism to include groups that were literally enemies of fascists. You are engaging in intellectual dishonesty.

My initial post was meant as a joke by pointing out that just being opposed to fascism isn't necessarily a good thing if what you propose isn't any better than what you oppose.

The original Antifa was associated with the KDP, I don't think the German people would have been better off had a Stalinist regime assumed power instead of the Nazis.

Long story short this thread is retarded.

You’re the one policing the political philosophy in here.  I just wanted to get it right. I’ve read enough to know fascism when I see it but you are drawing undefined lines and I’m asking you to define them.

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2 hours ago, Newy25 said:

It’s just hilarious to me how a group of people wearing masks and running around attacking people in the name of virtue can somehow be anti fascism. The irony is so amazingly apparent they cannot even see it through their hysterical virtue signaling. 

I’m against you Neo Nazis while I dress up in black and attack people who disagree with me! It’s as if Michael Scott created this absurd group. 

Newy, you are mind bottlingly stupid.  You're in the wrong neighborhood.  

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16 minutes ago, F250 said:

This is something you should have learned in college. I'm not going to explain fascism to someone that is attempting to expand the meaning of fascism to include groups that were literally enemies of fascists. You are engaging in intellectual dishonesty.

My initial post was meant as a joke by pointing out that just being opposed to fascism isn't necessarily a good thing if what you propose isn't any better than what you oppose.

The original Antifa was associated with the KDP, I don't think the German people would have been better off had a Stalinist regime assumed power instead of the Nazis.

Long story short this thread is retarded.

Ease off, soldier.  Hugo went to LSU.  

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6 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

You’re the one policing the political philosophy in here.  I just wanted to get it right. I’ve read enough to know fascism when I see it but you are drawing undefined lines and I’m asking you to define them.

Just read some books on the subject.

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3 hours ago, washparkhorn said:

spacer.png

 

I'm sure her heart is in the right place.

NINTCHDBPICT000584528161.jpg

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4 minutes ago, F250 said:

Just read some books on the subject.

I have read books.  “Fascism” hasn’t been around that long and I’m not sure there is clear consensus among the scholars as to what makes the ideology a unique style of government.  

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1 hour ago, F250 said:

Just read some books on the subject.

Okay, here’s what I know about fascism and please correct me if I’m wrong:

Fascism gets labeled as “far-right” but requires a sort of nationalist revolution, either by force or through democratic systems.  It isn’t exactly a “conservative” movement because it requires a subversive overthrow/rejection of the traditional government in favor of an oppressive dictatorship where economic/military powers are concentrated/centralized.  

The governing philosophy can only be described as nihilism/loyalty to state power and the rejection, often violent, of the other ideologies. 
 
Where I get hung up:  Would fascism exist if it didn’t have an opponent to overthrow/suppress?  I’d have to say no because total destruction of the opposition is the underlying philosophy and therefore it cannot stand alone or make it long term.  It’s a death spiral of power and violence. 

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3 hours ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Is fascism defined by it’s opposition to leftist ideologies or is it an independent ideology that doesn’t need an enemy to exist? 

That is an open question.

My opinion: There is no doubt the communism/Stalinism fed off of hatred for Nazis/Hitler and vice versa. 

Most see that opportunity as an inherent flaw in democracy as a concept. The freedom allows the sociopaths to voice their remedies for what ails us. With hatred of "others" - there is a fever that draws nourishment for the biases inherent in any structured society - and that allowed Stalin and Hitler to thrive. Eliminating the "others" in society became a hallmark for fascism with Hitler/Stalin/Mao/Pot/Mussolini and Japanese Showa Statism (WWII Japan). 

The othering of political foes creates conditions ripe for horrific abuse. I expect 95%+ are anti-fascist when they understand the consequences.

TL/DR - Fascism is murderous. 

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7 minutes ago, washparkhorn said:

That is an open question.

My opinion: There is no doubt the communism/Stalinism fed off of hatred for Nazis/Hitler and vice versa. 

Most see that opportunity as an inherent flaw in democracy as a concept. The freedom allows the sociopaths to voice their remedies for what ails us. With hatred of "others" - there is a fever that draws nourishment for the biases inherent in any structured society - and that allowed Stalin and Hitler to thrive. Eliminating the "others" in society became a hallmark for fascism with Hitler/Stalin/Mao/Pot/Mussolini and Japanese Showa Statism (WWII Japan). 

The othering of political foes creates conditions ripe for horrific abuse. I expect 95%+ are anti-fascist when they understand the consequences.

TL/DR - Fascism is murderous. 

A person should not believe in an -ism, he should believe in himself.

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1 hour ago, softlynow said:

A person should not believe in an -ism, he should believe in himself.

absurdism

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Antifa does not exist lol

 Find me one person who’s ever said “I’m in antifa.”

 It’s a fake boogey man Fox News created for Trump to scapegoat.

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When you disingenuously pretend that BLM protesters and these guys are part of the same movement, you get “antifa.”

 

 

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^So many things going on in that picture.  What's with the girl who is smaller than her weapon?  She reminds me of the girl in Caddyshack that can't pick up Rodney's big golf bag and the big guy next to her is D'Annunzio.  Then the dude to her right in the light ballcap.  He looks like he literally just came from a frat party with the theme "Aloha or Military (your choice)".  

What's with the last girl holding the BLM sign?  Is she rubbing it in their faces?  Is she with them?  Is it supposed to be ironic?  And I don't care for that guy sporting the Blackhorse on his playtime vest.  

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13 hours ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Where I get hung up:  Would fascism exist if it didn’t have an opponent to overthrow/suppress?  I’d have to say no because total destruction of the opposition is the underlying philosophy and therefore it cannot stand alone or make it long term.  It’s a death spiral of power and violence. 

As I understand it, fascism was a reactionary idea specific to the political movements occurring in the early 20th century, it was a product of its time and not a coherent ideology. It developed in opposition to the Bolshevik threat and borrowed enough ideas from Socialism to appease the working class while protecting the interests of the industrialists. Capitalism was repurposed to serve the State and eliminate class tension without actually having a workers revolution.

So I would agree that it would have never existed without having the conditions that existed in the early 20th century. I would add that those conditions no longer exist due to the death of Communism.

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, Nope said:

Antifa does not exist lol

 Find me one person who’s ever said “I’m in antifa.”

 It’s a fake boogey man Fox News created for Trump to scapegoat.

Their relatively unorganized existence is localized to the PNW, mostly in Portland.  I have not seen anyone with a clear argument that they aren't just a bunch of methheads living with their parents or on the street.  Giving them a name allows them to be politicized, but they're basically a retarded version of Project Mayhem.

Edited by SizzleChest

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13 minutes ago, F250 said:

It was a product of its time and not a coherent ideology. 

Right, in contemporary politics it seems fascism is framed as an attitude towards political power and not so much an ideology. 

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Posted (edited)
19 hours ago, Lobo said:

I was under the impression that were against facism, almost anti-facism if they may be so bold?  Facism as a solely right wing piece of real estate is wholly wrong when married up with history.  I do realize though, perhaps to your point, that their spectral holdings in 21st century U.S. are entirely focused on a tight slice of the line.  

The literal definition of fascism is far right authoritarian ultra-nationalism. Saying a left-wing fascist is like saying somebody's a Caucasian black person. It's a pure contradiction that cannot exist. 

this is why Stalin was also fascist. He wasn't fighting Hitler because he was anti-fascism, he was fighting Hitler because he was anti getting invaded by Nazis

And looking back at that definition: far-right authoritarian ultra-nationalist. That describes the Republican party and Trump to an exact mark. People who support the Republican party and Trump are by definition fascist. 

Edited by Wanker Bob

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I’ve always hoped someone I know personally would mention “antifa,” so I can ask if they would prefer pro-fascism.

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1 hour ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Right, in contemporary politics it seems fascism is framed as an attitude towards political power and not so much an ideology. 

I think it's just a pejorative people like to throw around.

 

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19 hours ago, SmokeyTheBear said:

My point being that Antifa's primary goal is to be anti-fascist. But then you are warning about the left wing fascists in recent history. I don't understand the warning, because if their ethos is truly their goal, then it doesn't matter where on the spectrum the fascist is, they are against them because they are fascist. It seems they are left leaning only because the GOP and Trump are exhibiting all the signs of an organization that is headed towards fascism. 

I'm not pro antifa per se, but I am pro organizations who put checks on extreme ideologies (as long as they do not become extreme themselves to accomplish their goals). 

The problem with much of the message of ANTIFA is that they deem anyone not agreeing with their entire message a fascist, that they have the only correct message.  Silencing those who disagree with them and preventing them from speaking on college campuses and the like.  That’s walking the line of being a fascist in your own right.   
 

but hey, who’s counting.  

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33 minutes ago, Wanker Bob said:

this is why Stalin was also fascist. He wasn't fighting Hitler because he was anti-fascism, he was fighting Hitler because he was anti getting invaded by Nazis

This ignores Stalin's support of the Republican side during the Spanish civil war while Hitler and Mussolini supported the Nationalist side, the fascist side. He also funded the KPD which was literally promoted as AntiFascist and they were responsible for the original Antifa organization. All of this was prior to the German invasion of the Soviet Union.

Stalin was not a fascist. There might be similarities especially during WWII when The USSR became more nationalistic which makes sense because they were being invaded. Still,  the Soviet Union wasn't meant to be a permanent nation state but a mechanism to work towards the transition from capitalism to Socialism and eventually Communism. Stalin was a committed Marxist after all.

 

 

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8 minutes ago, F250 said:

This ignores Stalin's support of the Republican side during the Spanish civil war while Hitler and Mussolini supported the Nationalist side, the fascist side. He also funded the KPD which was literally promoted as AntiFascist and they were responsible for the original Antifa organization. All of this was prior to the German invasion of the Soviet Union.

Stalin was not a fascist. There might be similarities especially during WWII when The USSR became more nationalistic which makes sense because they were being invaded. Still,  the Soviet Union wasn't meant to be a permanent nation state but a mechanism to work towards the transition from capitalism to Socialism and eventually Communism. Stalin was a committed Marxist after all.

 

 

Stalin was committed to the Marxism of his subjects.  

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16 minutes ago, Trey3216 said:

The problem with much of the message of ANTIFA is that they deem anyone not agreeing with their entire message a fascist, that they have the only correct message.  Silencing those who disagree with them and preventing them from speaking on college campuses and the like.  That’s walking the line of being a fascist in your own right.   
 

but hey, who’s counting.  

Who are these people and where have you heard their message?

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Posted (edited)

Look at what these hooligans do, those confederate flag patches are much less likely to be sold when antifa keeps coming in and turning them around. 

D28BC38E-47EC-440F-9AE7-F48232BE89F6_zps

336E6F23-AC31-49CB-A778-FEA82E0AAF77_zps

Edited by Hugo Stiglitz

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Posted (edited)
22 hours ago, F250 said:

As I understand it, fascism was a reactionary idea specific to the political movements occurring in the early 20th century, it was a product of its time and not a coherent ideology. It developed in opposition to the Bolshevik threat and borrowed enough ideas from Socialism to appease the working class while protecting the interests of the industrialists. Capitalism was repurposed to serve the State and eliminate class tension without actually having a workers revolution.

So I would agree that it would have never existed without having the conditions that existed in the early 20th century. I would add that those conditions no longer exist due to the death of Communism.

This is a good assessment and the only thing I’d add is how fascism came as a result of the perceived weaknesses of democracy.  

From my understanding the fascists believed democracy wasn’t working quick enough and there needed to be a strongman authoritarian government to “get shit done” otherwise the leftist movements would succeed in subverting the democratic systems.  Fascism was almost a “burn down the village in order to save it” strategy and for Franco, this was literally the game plan.  The fascists regimes of the early 20th emerged in democratic societies using nationalism and sometimes religion as the vehicle to consolidate power while at the same time, destroying democracy. 

Edited by Hugo Stiglitz

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2 hours ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

This is a good assessment and the only thing I’d add is how fascism came as a result of the perceived weaknesses of democracy.  

From my understanding the fascists believed democracy wasn’t working quick enough and there needed to be a strongman authoritarian government to “get shit done” otherwise the leftist movements would succeed in subverting the democratic systems.  Fascism was almost a “burn down the village in order to save it” strategy and for Franco, this was literally the game plan.  The fascists regimes of the early 20th emerged in democratic societies using nationalism and sometimes religion as the vehicle to consolidate power while at the same time, destroying democracy. 

Agree, as mentioned earlier in this thread, we were fortunate enough that Western Liberal Democracy emerged victorious over Fascism and Communism.

 

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Good read/thread about what is going on under the curtain, if you’re into this sort of thing.

 

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7 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Good read/thread about what is going on under the curtain, if you’re into this sort of thing.

 

It's well worth reading the entire article so I'll tease a little more.

Quote

You’ve probably seen messages that claim to provide evidence that busloads of “out of state” looters, rioters, and members of antifa are coming to burn down your town or city. They are bullsh*t. They are a psychological operation being run against Americans. And we should all understand how dangerous they are.

The other day I was watching the protests sparked by the death of George Floyd in police custody unfold across the nation — at the time, becoming increasingly tense, accompanied by a spike of unrest and destructive activity — when I got a message from a friend who is connected to the broader military community in Ft. Bragg:

Got this from a friend; Here’s what I know this far.  All of the hotels at exit 49 are booked by protesters from out of state. The word is the group that was here Saturday that caused all the trouble was in Greenville last night.  It got so bad there last night that Greenville PD requested assistance from all agencies within a 100-mile radius. They are coming back here tonight. There is a group currently at Westwood shopping center protesting. We have credible intel that they are going to attack 3 FPD stations. Get home and stay home.

This was followed by a discussion in texts that Fayetteville, where Ft. Bragg is located, was going to “burn.” My immediate response was to laugh at the predictable specter of the antifa-bogeyman, and then to point out that this information didn’t seem to be mirrored by reality, as much as Fox News has been desperate to push a narrative of coordinated nationwide activity to bring unrest to American cities. More importantly, the construct of the message was highly similar to a set of text messages that circulated in the military and defense community at the beginning of the COVID-19 pandemic, which claimed that martial law was about to be declared (it wasn’t). 

 

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1 hour ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

It’s just so fucking stupid but also dangerous which makes it incredibly sad.

 

I remember El Paso. I don't think Tucker does. Or if he does he doesn't care. I care.

 

The projection on that chryon, though. Woooo.

Thanks for the link to the psyops article. I enjoy reading that type of info.

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55 minutes ago, Mrs Whiggins said:

I remember El Paso. I don't think Tucker does. Or if he does he doesn't care. I care.

 

The projection on that chryon, though. Woooo.

Thanks for the link to the psyops article. I enjoy reading that type of info.

fun fact: psy-ops were basically started by standard oil, grew up during WWI, perfected by the API, picked up by the nazis (the API's top propagandist actually taught the nazis a thing or three about how to do it), and echoed right back into the US by tobacco and the API. 

we've been intentionally dumbed down for a century by people whose products do the users and everyone else harm.  no wonder people are so damn gullible. 

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Good to see Evan McMullin's squad going after fascists during this critical time. 

Anyone trying to start a race war is no friend of the people. 

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2 hours ago, elfenix said:

fun fact: psy-ops were basically started by standard oil, grew up during WWI, perfected by the API, picked up by the nazis (the API's top propagandist actually taught the nazis a thing or three about how to do it), and echoed right back into the US by tobacco and the API. 

Ivy Ledbetter Lee, the father of public relations.

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The Devil's marketing team - he and Edward Bernays.

They understood Herd Mentality and how to weaponize it. 

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I makes me want to cry a little. That someone was cunning enough to take the satirical and exploit the gullible instead of using their intelligence for good and that people swallow the con without fail.

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Richard Grenell talks about Antifa a little bit:

 

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1 hour ago, FWD said:

 

 

You are not supposed to talk about “OperationSilverTsunami” run by the comrades from the 8th Comintern at Monterrey Camp Delta. 

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On 6/7/2020 at 3:23 PM, Trey3216 said:

The problem with much of the message of ANTIFA is that they deem anyone not agreeing with their entire message a fascist, that they have the only correct message.  Silencing those who disagree with them and preventing them from speaking on college campuses and the like.  That’s walking the line of being a fascist in your own right.   
 

but hey, who’s counting.  

That's not antifa. That's just young people that don't want racists getting paid to speak at their schools.

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20 hours ago, Parliament said:

Oh my god, you are so fucking stupid. Those are samples of concrete mixes taken from a construction site. You can even read the fucking notes on the side of the coffee cups, which look nothing like ice cream containers except that they’re round.

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7 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

That's not antifa. That's just young people that don't want racists getting paid to speak at their schools.

So now anyone with a political opinion different to you is a racist?  Awesome

 

i remember being called a racist because I didn’t agree with some economic policies of Obama’s.  Funny when you lay it out as policy and people come back with the racist label because you dared to disagree.  

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