NCAA Statement on Transgender Participation

[TurkeyChew 383]

23 minutes ago, troph said:

I've shared my perspective, y'all have fun.

You gave your perspective and it's definitely appreciated. Root cause and how to fix for the future generations, etc. is important. But that's not answering the topical question that has bubbled up that we as a society need to answer: What do we do about this girl today? Should she be allowed to do what she's doing and wants to continue to do, athletically?

Is it a matter of "tough crap, 99% of the time the trans community gets the raw end of the deal and in this 1% of the time we benefit on something so you (the girls swimming against Lia) should grin and bear it"?

Edited March 18, 2022 by TurkeyChew

[midtown 3334]

So the woman that finished 9th is not an All-American.  I'd like to get her take on this.

This. If I'm the parents or school of those robbed of their rightful place I'm claiming what should have been. This is not a case of everyone gets a trophy. But if I'm 4th then me and my family and my school are claiming 3rd and I'm having a medal made

[midtown 3334]

No, and I don't think anyone cares about the transgender thing - they care that she was a D1 level scholarship athlete in the MENS level. 

I don't give a shit if you take fucking hormones or get into a brutal accident. Once you have been at a D1 mens level you don't just with some pills regress to what is anywhere near fair at a D1 womens level. 

It's Penn. There are no atlletic scholarships

[BabaYaga 15116]

dp

Edited March 18, 2022 by BabaYaga

[BabaYaga 15116]

2 minutes ago, midtown said:

This. If I'm the parents or school of those robbed of their rightful place I'm claiming what should have been. This is not a case of everyone gets a trophy. But if I'm 4th then me and my family and my school are claiming 3rd and I'm having a medal made

That's all well and good once you are in school, what about scholie limits?  If your daughter is the one bumped?  If you saw tens if not hundreds of thousands in scholie money and an opportunity to attend a school like Yale, it has to be utterly devastating to both the parents and the athlete....which is the next logical step in all this.  Recruits.  

Not all schools give them out obviously, but many do and a lot is at stake for these girls that busted their asses for so long.  

[crash_davis 23038]

11 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

As  father of one, this is sensitive to me.  I also have some perspective.  My brothers daughter is flirting with a gender change.  She's already changed her name and pronouns, so we'll see what the next steps are.  I support and still love my niece immensely, but also have to take a step back and see the broader implications.  

 

my wife's niece recently married a trans-woman. she was a he when they met and fell in love. she was a he when he proposed. she became herself during the engagement. we fully support both in their courageous journey and their marriage and hosted a nice private reception for them. they visit and stay with us all the time, more than they visit their own families.

i also have daughters who competed in girls sports throughout their childhood. knowing how hard they practiced, i would not have bein OK if they were to "lose" to a transgendered girl. it makes a mockery of their hard work. it goes against the spirit of competition and fairness. 

 

 

 

[BillyGoatHill 4267]

6 minutes ago, UncleSonny said:

 

Well…some clearly do:

 

 

Transgender male that competed on the MENS swim team (same school) the previous year has no business swimming with the female team the following year. I could care less about someone being transgender, IDGAF. But when you are competing for scholarships, schooling, a degree, and taking a spot from from someone else because you couldn't compete with who you were born with/as,....yes then I have a problem with it. As do with plenty of his/her teammates on the Penn Female Swim team. They won't /cant' speak out publicly due to possible reprisals from their own school and most likely the toothless NCAA. My daughter is grown now and luckily didn't have to deal with this during her school years or playing sports. I guess you don't have a daughter and cant see how this isn't fair or in the best interest of ALL women's sports.

This guy is competing with an advantage. Much like the East German swimmers in the 72 Olympics that had a state sponsored steroid program. In the relays and many other of the races they won by half a pool length. The US team has still refused to accept their silver medals that the IOC has locked in a vault, even after the fall of the iron curtain and the east German swimmers admitting to their doping program and the medals that they received ( now taken back, but the gold never awarded to the rightful swimmers).

 

[BillyGoatHill 4267]

11 minutes ago, midtown said:

35 minutes ago, immamac said:

No, and I don't think anyone cares about the transgender thing - they care that she was a D1 level scholarship athlete in the MENS level. 

I don't give a shit if you take fucking hormones or get into a brutal accident. Once you have been at a D1 mens level you don't just with some pills regress to what is anywhere near fair at a D1 womens level. 

It's Penn. There are no atlletic scholarships

Fair enough. Today it's only Penn. Who next year, or down the road?

[Helobious 9393]

1 hour ago, crash_davis said:

fucking lulz. no one is saying the kid can't compete. he/she just needs to compete against the gender that he/she was when he/she exited the pussy. 

That’s the rule the UIL has. Then a few years ago a female high school wrestler in TX transitioned to male, and petitioned the UIL to let him compete in the boys division. His petition was denied on the basis that you have to compete with the gender on your birth certificate. He went on to win state in the girls division. 

[StruggleBus 3922]

Gender is irrelevant. Compete by biological sex or do away with women's leagues altogether. Problem solved. 

[midtown 3334]

I do believe there is a title IX lawsuit in the works on this

[BillyGoatHill 4267]

25 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

Martina Navratilova spoke up early about this.  She was such a huge and pivotal catalyst for women's rights and she got her ass cancelled in a hurry.  I think most natal female athletes feel the same and self-censor to avoid the public backlash.   

Oh, I know that. But they still need too. Penn teammates have been silent but shit like this can and will ruin women's sports. Gonna have to pick and side eventually. Get 2nd, 3rd, 4th OR do the right thing and speak out on a wrong. 

 

[UncleSonny 6455]

9 minutes ago, BillyGoatHill said:

Transgender male that competed on the MENS swim team (same school) the previous year has no business swimming with the female team the following year. I could care less about someone being transgender, IDGAF. But when you are competing for scholarships, schooling, a degree, and taking a spot from from someone else because you couldn't compete with who you were born with/as,....yes then I have a problem with it. As do with plenty of his/her teammates on the Penn Female Swim team. They won't /cant' speak out publicly due to possible reprisals from their own school and most likely the toothless NCAA. My daughter is grown now and luckily didn't have to deal with this during her school years or playing sports. I guess you don't have a daughter and cant see how this isn't fair or in the best interest of ALL women's sports.

This guy is competing with an advantage. Much like the East German swimmers in the 72 Olympics that had a state sponsored steroid program. In the relays and many other of the races they won by half a pool length. The US team has still refused to accept their silver medals that the IOC has locked in a vault, even after the fall of the iron curtain and the east German swimmers admitting to their doping program and the medals that they received ( now taken back, but the gold never awarded to the rightful swimmers).

 

Has a single person on this thread has argued that it was fair or right that Thomas was allowed to compete and win the title? Everyone I’ve seen is on the same page there. 

But for someone who “could care less” if someone is transgender you are going out of your way to misgender her and bring in transphobic bullshit. That was my point.

I have two daughters by the way. What a bizarre assumption from what I wrote.  

[MonkeyDoughnut 9944]

12 minutes ago, StruggleBus said:

Gender is irrelevant. Compete by biological sex or do away with women's leagues altogether. Problem solved. 

There are 6 "biological" sexes of note: X, XX, XXY, XY, XYY, XXXY

I assume you are talking reproductive capabilities at birth where is yes/no

The fact is the men's and women's categories were just easy broad grouping categories that excluded a portion of people. Times have changed to recognize that portion of people who were excluded up until now. If they are to be included in sports competition as we know it the competitions themselves would have to change, or we can just continue to exclude them.

 

[midtown 3334]

9 minutes ago, BillyGoatHill said:

Penn teammates have been silent

No they haven't

[BillyGoatHill 4267]

Transphobic BS? 

Again, I wrote what many others stated also. Competing on the male team one year and then the female the next doesn't make it a right. 

My bizarre assumption is not any different than yours. 

 

[BillyGoatHill 4267]

5 minutes ago, midtown said:

No they haven't

While speaking up earlier in the season, they were basically told to go along with it. They couldn't speak openly or publicly due to possible repercussions from the school or the NCAA.

[bschoolprof 6219]

29 minutes ago, Helobious said:

That’s the rule the UIL has. Then a few years ago a female high school wrestler in TX transitioned to male, and petitioned the UIL to let him compete in the boys division. His petition was denied on the basis that you have to compete with the gender on your birth certificate. He went on to win state in the girls division. 

I'm assuming he was on testosterone?  

I think the most sensible rule is if you've ever made (significant?) testosterone naturally or are taking it, you compete in the men's division.  

Edited March 18, 2022 by bschoolprof

[crash_davis 23038]

26 minutes ago, Helobious said:

That’s the rule the UIL has. Then a few years ago a female high school wrestler in TX transitioned to male, and petitioned the UIL to let him compete in the boys division. His petition was denied on the basis that you have to compete with the gender on your birth certificate. He went on to win state in the girls division. 

good for him. i'm sure he spent hundreds, maybe thousands of hours practicing. hard work and dedication should be rewarded.

[bschoolprof 6219]

double post

Edited March 18, 2022 by bschoolprof

[workswithseed 2012]

All I can think is how assmad Ghost was at ana for coming up with a way to separate people with testosterone, and Ghost going "you can't do that!"

[ChickenSandwich 9749]

1 hour ago, BillyGoatHill said:

ha! The NCAA has turned their head to this and many other noticeable discrepancies in  recent years. Corrupt and worthless organization in regards to the athletes. The MALE shouldn't have been allowed in the pool with the women on her own team vs. being at the National Championships. 

WOMEN THEMSELVES (athletes) are going to have to make the change and REFUSE to compete against someone that is not competing where they should. I would have loved it if all the WOMEN in the race false started and jumped/dove en masse into the pool, that would have made a statement and thus set the tone with how the majority of female athletes feel about this BS situation.

Worst part about this is those young ladies know they can’t disagree publicly because of the very real backlash that will ensue. I mean look at the celebrities supporting the argument that this is wrong. 
 

Jenner

JK

Martina. They can all afford private security and won’t suffer because of it, but any of these girls knows they will. 

We have created an environment that denies these ladies free speech  

Disgusting 

Edited March 18, 2022 by ChickenSandwich

[StruggleBus 3922]

34 minutes ago, MonkeyDoughnut said:

There are 6 "biological" sexes of note: X, XX, XXY, XY, XYY, XXXY

[UncleSonny 6455]

 

19 minutes ago, ChickenSandwich said:

Worst part about this is those young ladies know they can’t disagree publicly because of the very real backlash that will ensue. I mean look at the celebrities supporting the argument that this is wrong. 
 

Jenner

JK

Martina. They can all afford private security and won’t suffer because of it, but any of these girls knows they will. 
 

Disgusting 

Some probably do feel that way and their frustration about the unfairness is completely justifiable. But Erica has as much skin in the game as any of them, and:

https://www.newsweek.com/why-im-proud-support-trans-athletes-like-lia-thomas-opinion-1689192

[crash_davis 23038]

28 minutes ago, UncleSonny said:

 

Some probably do feel that way and their frustration about the unfairness is completely justifiable. But Erica has as much skin in the game as any of them, and:

https://www.newsweek.com/why-im-proud-support-trans-athletes-like-lia-thomas-opinion-1689192

good for her to come out in support. i imagine there's less risk to coming out in support than opposing. opposing may get a person auto categorized as transphobic when they are probably just pro-fairness. anyone arguing that biologically male athletes competing against women athletes as fair is selling something. 

 

[ChickenSandwich 9749]

1 hour ago, UncleSonny said:

 

Some probably do feel that way and their frustration about the unfairness is completely justifiable. But Erica has as much skin in the game as any of them, and:

https://www.newsweek.com/why-im-proud-support-trans-athletes-like-lia-thomas-opinion-1689192

I agreed with the point that she followed the rules to compete, the rules need to be changed.  Would she have the same opinion had she been denied a podium by a transgender female?  

She should never be denied the right to compete, but denying the rights of others to fairly compete is not a real solution.  She should have been free to compete in the same competitive group she competed with last season.  

 

Edited March 18, 2022 by ChickenSandwich

[MonkeyDoughnut 9944]

1 minute ago, ChickenSandwich said:

I agreed with the point that she followed the rules to compete, the rules need to be changed.

She should never be denied the right to compete, but denying the rights of others to fairly compete is not a real solution.  She should have been free to compete in the same competitive group she competed with last season.  

 

That's the question to be answered, what's your solution for other transgenders to be able to fairly compete? Neither current grouping allows for that.

[po elvis 2070]

Just now, MonkeyDoughnut said:

That's the question to be answered, what's your solution for other transgenders to be able to fairly compete? Neither current grouping allows for that.

compete against other transgenders. it is pretty simple.

[Hook1997 5231]

If I came out as trans in high school and they allowed this I would have definitely been the district 100 meter champ!  Well maybe….  This is totally unfair to the other girls.  

[crash_davis 23038]

10 minutes ago, Hook1997 said:

If I came out as trans in high school and they allowed this I would have definitely been the district 100 meter champ!  Well maybe….  This is totally unfair to the other girls.  

overnight, you can go from being the ~500th best male swimmer to becoming the dominant female swimmer setting records. yay you!

[Scary Stranger 1708]

[crash_davis 23038]

13 minutes ago, crash_davis said:

overnight, you can go from being the ~500th best male swimmer to becoming the dominant female swimmer setting records. yay you!

every time i read or write that, i just laugh at the ridiculousness of it. she was an average at best, probably sub-average, male competitive collegiate swimmer. now she absolutely destroys the women field. these women have trained and practiced for thousands of hours from pre-teen years. and with the switch of a check on a Male / Female box, the best they can finish is second place. fucking laughable.

 

Edited March 18, 2022 by crash_davis

[UTGrad98 2183]

1 minute ago, crash_davis said:

every time i read or write that, i just laugh at the ridiculousness of it. she was an average at best, probably sub-average, male competitive collegiate swimmer. now she absolutely destroys the women field. these women have trained and practiced for thousands of hours from pre-teen years. and with the switch of a check on a Male / Female box, the best they can finish is second place. fucking laughable.

 

It is litterally this simple. Ncaa and other governing sports bodies need to act asap or it will be a clown show. You name the sport, if something doesn't change, this will be the result. 

[Scary Stranger 1708]

6 minutes ago, crash_davis said:

every time i read or write that, i just laugh at the ridiculousness of it. she was an average at best, probably sub-average, male competitive collegiate swimmer. now she absolutely destroys the women field. these women have trained and practiced for thousands of hours from pre-teen years. and with the switch of a check on a Male / Female box, the best they can finish is second place. fucking laughable.

 

Believe that I read that when she was a he, he was a below average male swimmer. 

[Pam Cummings 9409]

7 minutes ago, crash_davis said:

every time i read or write that, i just laugh at the ridiculousness of it. she was an average at best, probably sub-average, male competitive collegiate swimmer. now she absolutely destroys the women field. these women have trained and practiced for thousands of hours from pre-teen years. and with the switch of a check on a Male / Female box, the best they can finish is second place. fucking laughable.

 

If someone is willing to cut their dick off to win a race, i say let em.

[Don Johnson 4722]

1 minute ago, Pam Cummings said:

If someone is willing to cut their dick off to win a race, i say let em.

She didn't

[Scary Stranger 1708]

Just saw this one in another article.

 

[crash_davis 23038]

1 minute ago, Scary Stranger said:

Believe that I read that when she was a he, he was a below average male swimmer. 

i am being respectful. she probably identified as female when she competed with her male counterparts.

[crash_davis 23038]

Just now, Don Johnson said:

She didn't

it's the thought that counts

[crash_davis 23038]

1 minute ago, Scary Stranger said:

Just saw this one in another article.

 

i see no winners there. everyone is losing.

[Pam Cummings 9409]

4 minutes ago, Don Johnson said:

She didn't

Shoulda had this dude waiting for her before she could swim

 

[midtown 3334]

5 minutes ago, Scary Stranger said:

Just saw this one in another article.

 

I assume the Stanford swimmer was fourth and borrowed a third place trophy for the picture.  If so that says everything you need to know about how I assume most female athletes feels about this. 

[Rimbo 25212]

2 hours ago, StruggleBus said:

Gender is irrelevant. Compete by biological sex or do away with women's leagues altogether. Problem solved. 

It's not that simple.

A friend of mine was born male, played defensive line in high school, and was a state champion heavyweight wrestler. She transitioned to female, and has been regularly recruited by eg women's football teams. She refuses to participate, because to her, it's not fair; while she felt physically weaker almost immediately upon taking female hormones, as she said, there's no substitute for going through all your teenage years getting that natural testosterone.

Women taking testosterone and competing is illegal for a similar reason.

I'm not here to propose a solution. Only to show that the issue is complicated by the effects of hormones, both those you grew up with and those you're now taking. 

[ChickenSandwich 9749]

19 minutes ago, Pam Cummings said:

If someone is willing to cut their dick off to win a race, i say let em.

About that…

https://nypost.com/2022/01/27/teammates-are-uneasy-changing-in-locker-room-with-trans-upenn-swimmer-lia-thomas/

[crash_davis 23038]

11 minutes ago, Rimbo said:

It's not that simple.

A friend of mine was born male, played defensive line in high school, and was a state champion heavyweight wrestler. She transitioned to female, and has been regularly recruited by eg women's football teams. She refuses to participate, because to her, it's not fair; while she felt physically weaker almost immediately upon taking female hormones, as she said, there's no substitute for going through all your teenage years getting that natural testosterone.

Women taking testosterone and competing is illegal for a similar reason.

I'm not here to propose a solution. Only to show that the issue is complicated by the effects of hormones, both those you grew up with and those you're now taking. 

congrats to your friend. she's cursed with self-awareness. and i mean that with the highest of compliments.

[ChickenSandwich 9749]

20 minutes ago, Scary Stranger said:

Just saw this one in another article.

 

Is this a real photo, not a shop?

[crash_davis 23038]

6 minutes ago, ChickenSandwich said:

About that…

https://nypost.com/2022/01/27/teammates-are-uneasy-changing-in-locker-room-with-trans-upenn-swimmer-lia-thomas/

on one hand i'm thinking, the fuck is wrong with that school for allowing this shit. on the other hand i'm thinking of homosexual athletes dressing in their respective gender's locker rooms and thinking, ehh, what's the big deal?

not sure what the solution is. 

Edited March 18, 2022 by crash_davis

[midtown 3334]

Whats the big deal?

Edited March 18, 2022 by midtown

[BabaYaga 15116]

33 minutes ago, Rimbo said:

while she felt physically weaker almost immediately upon taking female hormones, as she said, there's no substitute for going through all your teenage years getting that natural testosterone.

It's not just strength.  It's everything.  Bone & muscle composition/mass.  Tendon and grip strength.  It's like taking steroids for decades, and then just stopping.  Those years of growth don't just go away, even with years of cycles.  

[Scary Stranger 1708]

Is this a real photo, not a shop?

No idea. It was on Outkick so flip a coin.