Jump to content

Realignment talk not going away


The Tower

Recommended Posts

8 hours ago, camel at sea said:

SMU donors are willing to pay for facilities upgrades as well as foot the bill for an AD that won't get media revenue for as long as seven years?  On top of that, they'll fund an NIL operation competitive enough to win games in a power conference?  I guess you do what you gotta do to get your foot in the door but that's an enormous buy-in.  

Assuming they do get in, though, the ACC will have three outliers in Big 12 territory (SMU, Stanford, Cal), and vice versa (WVU, Cincy, UCF.)  Maybe at some point the two conferences swap.   

image.png.a936e38eb8b22b51f6d278572efdc6b8.png

 

This appears to be the minimum per year they'd have to give, correct? 

So lets just round it up to 70 million per year for 7 and you're looking at 490 million dollars from donors and that doesn't include NIL to keep you competitive. So lets just say half a billion is being asked to donors. Throw in an estimated 18 million AAC buyout which is what Cincy and Houston paid. 

Even if it is half that, it is still a ton of money to ask of booster. 

Edited by BurntOrange&White
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, statsman said:

Before TCU joined the B12, their university endowments were roughly equal at $1B. Now, TCU’s is $2.4B 

Suggesting this is correlated to the Big XII is stupid. Any decently run university will see their endowment grow at a good clip. In the same timeframe, Baylor's grew from 870 million to a little over 2 billion. Hell the AVERAGE growth among R1 schools just in fiscal 2021 was over 30%. 

Edited by LTbear
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, BurntOrange&White said:

image.png.a936e38eb8b22b51f6d278572efdc6b8.png

 

This appears to be the minimum per year they'd have to give, correct? 

So lets just round it up to 70 million per year for 7 and you're looking at 490 million dollars from donors and that doesn't include NIL to keep you competitive. So lets just say half a billion is being asked to donors. 

For reference Big 12 got the 4 corner schools for 3/4 of a billion. 

That's a tall ask 
 

The rumor is SMU would be foregoing only broadcast/media revenue for the first seven years, not all conference distributions.

As in they would still receive any ACC distributions for post-season play (CFP, NY6 bowls, March Madness, etc.), which should offset a large chunk, if not all, of the ~$8MM/year in American distributions they would be leaving behind. Then they would stand to get the ~$40MM/year in media distros from the ACC starting year eight. 

Factor in incremental revenue from things like higher ticket prices and concession sales, increased donor support and boosts to some of the "soft" value items like academic and athletic prestige and general brand recognition along with the incident recruiting benefits for both athletes and ordinary students.

Overall a great deal for them to get a seat at the big boys' table, IMO. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, derpyhorndog said:

The rumor is SMU would be foregoing only broadcast/media revenue for the first seven years, not all conference distributions.

As in they would still receive any ACC distributions for post-season play (CFP, NY6 bowls, March Madness, etc.), which should offset a large chunk, if not all, of the ~$8MM/year in American distributions they would be leaving behind. Then they would stand to get the ~$40MM/year in media distros from the ACC starting year eight. 

Factor in incremental revenue from things like higher ticket prices and concession sales, increased donor support and boosts to some of the "soft" value items like academic and athletic prestige and general brand recognition along with the incident recruiting benefits for both athletes and ordinary students.

Overall a great deal for them to get a seat at the big boys' table, IMO. 

Gotcha, that's such a huge gamble because by year 6-7 you could be up shit creek without a paddle if more realignment happens.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, BurntOrange&White said:

Gotcha, that's such a huge gamble because by year 6-7 you could be up shit creek without a paddle if more realignment happens.

Yeah for sure, definitely a gamble. One they would presumably only take if they were confident that the ACC would stay intact until the GOR expires in 2036, helped largely by the estimated $55MM in concessions by SMU, Cal and Stanford and the ACC's new revenue distro model that should disproportionately benefit the FSU and Clemson malcontents.

If it plays out that way (to your point, that's a big "if"), think it would shake out to where SMU would have left behind ~$56MM in aggregate American distributions ($8MM * seven years) but received ~$200MM in ACC distributions ($40MM * five years) by GOR expiration. Even just two years of ACC media distros would put SMU in the green. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, derpyhorndog said:

Yeah for sure, definitely a gamble. One they would presumably only take if they were confident that the ACC would stay intact until the GOR expires in 2036, helped largely by the estimated $55MM in concessions by SMU, Cal and Stanford and the ACC's new revenue distro model that should disproportionately benefit the FSU and Clemson malcontents.

If it plays out that way (to your point, that's a big "if"), think it would shake out to where SMU would have left behind ~$56MM in aggregate American distributions ($8MM * seven years) but received ~$200MM in ACC distributions ($40MM * five years) by GOR expiration. Even just two years of ACC media distros would put SMU in the green. 

Cal is way more fucked than SMU or Stanford. The academic side assumed 54% of their athletic debt so instead of operating at 80% budget they can now operate at 90% but they have to balance a budget and there were terms agreed upon between the AD and UC academics. Taking no payment for so many years for them will only reduce that operating budget even more since they won't have the PAC revenue coming in that kept them afloat essentially.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, BurntOrange&White said:

Cal is way more fucked than SMU or Stanford. The academic side assumed 54% of their athletic debt so instead of operating at 80% budget they can now operate at 90% but they have to balance a budget and there were terms agreed upon between the AD and UC academics. Taking no payment for so many years for them will only reduce that operating budget even more since they won't have the PAC revenue coming in that kept them afloat essentially.

Queuing a bunch of academics patting themselves on the back for saying football was a bad move 

  • Hook 'Em 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

28 minutes ago, BurntOrange&White said:

Gotcha, that's such a huge gamble because by year 6-7 you could be up shit creek without a paddle if more realignment happens.

Not any worse than they already are.

If the ACC gets poached by the SEC and Big 10, SMU could have used this raised profile to jump some of the other ACC schools in terms of Big 12 interest.  I think it's unlikely, but it's not like they have anything to lose as it is.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Al_4_ISU said:

Not any worse than they already are.

If the ACC gets poached by the SEC and Big 10, SMU could have used this raised profile to jump some of the other ACC schools in terms of Big 12 interest.  I think it's unlikely, but it's not like they have anything to lose as it is.

I don't think going there and getting dicked down worse than they already do raises the profile. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

44 minutes ago, LTbear said:

Suggesting this is correlated to the Big XII is stupid. Any decently run university will see their endowment grow at a good clip. In the same timeframe, Baylor's grew from 870 million to a little over 2 billion. Hell the AVERAGE growth among R1 schools just in fiscal 2021 was over 30%. 

So, you’re arguing that Baylor’s endowment increase of 130% is evidence that TCU’s endowment increase of 125% over the same time period of B12 membership (while SMU’s endowment increased “only” 90%) has nothing to do with big time football participation. Three private universities, all within 100 miles of each other. Two increased dramatically more than the other. What could be driving donations?🤔

Edited by statsman
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, BurntOrange&White said:

I don't think going there and getting dicked down worse than they already do raises the profile. 

They have to try something.  If it fails, they're in the same spot they're in now.  They truly have nothing to lose.

I don't think this will be successful, but it makes complete sense to me that SMU would attempt this.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Al_4_ISU said:

They have to try something.  If it fails, they're in the same spot they're in now.  They truly have nothing to lose.

I don't think this will be successful, but it makes complete sense to me that SMU would attempt this.

Maybe try building your brand back up by winning in the current conference you're in. That method has worked for both TCU and Cincy....Organically do it....don't just try to buy some surface level BS that won't work.

Edited by BurntOrange&White
Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 minutes ago, statsman said:

So, you’re arguing that Baylor’s endowment increase of 130% is evidence that TCU’s endowment increase of 125% over the same time period of B12 membership (while SMU’s endowment increased “only” 90%) has nothing to do with big time football participation. Three private universities, all within 100 miles of each other. Two increased dramatically more than the other. What could be driving donations?🤔

You're forgetting the charming metropolis that is Waco, Texas.  

Fixer Upper Fist Bump GIF by HGTV Canada

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, statsman said:

 What could be driving donations?🤔

Are you literally asking what else could drive up endowments of major universities? Even though I already told you the endowment increase of those two universities is nothing out of the norm for well managed university endowments? Do you understand university financials and all that goes into them at all? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

52 minutes ago, mdmost said:

 

I love historical reminders like this. Here's a little timeline.

July 21,2021 UT & OU announce that they are joining the SEC. The SEC will now have 16 teams.

July 21st-Sept 10th. The remaining Eight B12 schools are in full blown panic. They are all worried that the PAC12 will add the four best remaining Eight and that their school might not make the cut.

August 24th, 2021. The ACC, B1G & ACC try to counter the SEC coup with a piece of paper that loosely defines the meaningless alliance. It appeared stupid and meaningless at the time and it still appears that way. The Alliance may have eased the PAC12's mind for expansion. The PAC12 was convinced that they were super stable and were locked in as one of the top four conferences and that the BIG12 was on the outside looking in.

September 10th, 2021. The Big12 Adds Cincy, BYU, UCF & UH. The BIG12 is stabilized and united. Meanwhile, behind the scenes the B1G wants to get to 16 teams just like the SEC.  They begin back channel negotiations with USC/UO&ULCA. The Alliance will go down in the football realignment history books as the PAC12'S Neville Chamberlain moment.

  • Hook 'Em 6
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, statsman said:

SMU knows what it’s doing. Before TCU joined the B12, their university endowments were roughly equal at $1B. Now, TCU’s is $2.4B and SMU’s is $1.9B. SMU wants some of that sweet donor money that comes in with major college football (and doesn’t with G5 football, evidently).

My personal endowment (401) has gone up 100% the past few years. I'm sure it's not related to the +$1trillion in money the government printed, but my eye for football.

  • Haha 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 minutes ago, CustersDoctor said:

I love historical reminders like this. Here's a little timeline.

Don't forget one of the primary reasons for the Alliance was to block playoff expansion.

They then reversed course after adding USCLA and signed everyone on to the exact same playoff plan a year later.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, CustersDoctor said:

August 24th, 2021. The ACC, B1G & ACC try to counter the SEC coup with a piece of paper that loosely defines the meaningless alliance. 

You're giving Klownkoff and Phillips too much credit.  There was no piece of paper.  

"There is no contract.  We shook hands as gentlemen and looked each other in the eye."🤣

 

 

  • Haha 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 minutes ago, USC Traveler said:
1 hour ago, CustersDoctor said:

August 24th, 2021. The ACC, B1G & ACC try to counter the SEC coup with a piece of paper that loosely defines the meaningless alliance. 

You're giving Klownkoff and Phillips too much credit.  There was no piece of paper.  

"There is no contract.  We shook hands as gentlemen and looked each other in the eye."🤣

“Even though I’m a lawyer, one of my favorite law professors at Notre Dame said, ‘If you have to go back and look at a contract you signed, you probably entered into a deal with the wrong parties,” Big Ten commissioner Kevin Warren said. 

  • Hook 'Em 1
  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Looks like Stanford and Cal have learned nothing in realignment.  They seem to think nothing will change.

They thought the PAC (and media money) would always be there because they never thought USC would leave.

Now they're going to go ACC with a 30% share than won't reach 100% until 2036.  

What's going to happen when FSU, Clemson, Miami, UNC, etc all leave ?  

FSU people like Bud Elliot think FSU is leaving next year.  If not next year, the closer it gets to 2036, the more likely the exodus becomes.

Once the BIG and SEC take the top ACC teams, ESPN will likely push the 2nd tier teams like UL, Pitt, etc to the B12 and let the conference dissolve completely.  At the very least,  ESPN will use the composition clause (standard in conference tv deals) to drastically reduce payments to the ACC.

Stanford and Cal are going to take $7-10m/yr to start, and there's a great chance the conference dissolves or gets hammered way down on revenue long before the Bay area schools start getting any real money.

They are setting themselves up for absolute disaster- Cal especially, given their finances and lack of ND connection/hope for BIG.

They would have been much better to get over their coastal elitism, academic snobbery and religious bigotry to try to be part of a BIG 18.

I guess being in a pod with BYU and playing teams in OK, KS, WV, etc was too much for them.

 

Edited by USC Traveler
  • Hook 'Em 4
  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, CustersDoctor said:

I love historical reminders like this. Here's a little timeline.

 

September 10th, 2021. The Big12 Adds Cincy, BYU, UCF & UH. The BIG12 is stabilized and united. Meanwhile, behind the scenes the B1G wants to get to 16 teams just like the SEC.  They begin back channel negotiations with USC/UO&ULCA. The Alliance will go down in the football realignment history books as the PAC12'S Neville Chamberlain moment.

Where did you get that day as the beginning of the UCLA treachery?  For it to be leaked so soon it was likely being plotted before there was a rebel alliance.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 minutes ago, USC Traveler said:

Looks like Stanford and Cal have learned nothing in realignment.  They seem to think nothing will change.

They thought the PAC (and media money) would always be there because they never thought USC would leave.

Now they're going to go ACC with a 30% share than won't reach 100% until 2036.  

What's going to happen when FSU, Clemson, Miami, UNC, etc all leave ?  

FSU people like Bud Elliot think FSU is leaving next year.  If not next year, the closer it gets to 2036, the more likely the exodus becomes.

Once the BIG and SEC take the top ACC teams, ESPN will likely push the 2nd tier teams like UL, Pitt, etc to the B12 and let the conference dissolve completely.  At the very least,  ESPN will use the composition clause (standard in conference tv deals) to drastically reduce payments to the ACC.

Stanford and Cal are going to take $7-10m/yr to start, and there's a great chance the conference dissolves or gets hammered way down on revenue long before the Bay area schools start getting any real money.

They are setting themselves up for absolute disaster- Cal especially, given their finances and lack of ND connection/hope for BIG.

They would have been much better to get over their coastal elitism, academic snobbery and religious bigotry to try to be part of a BIG 18.

I guess being in a pod with BYU and playing teams in OK, KS, WV, etc was too much for them.

 

That's $7-$10 million TV money which as good as they could do in Pac -8 + X.  And they will get a share of other distributions which will be better in the ACC.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, statsman said:

 Three private universities, all within 100 miles of each other. Two increased dramatically more than the other. What could be driving donations?🤔

Yeah, but that doesn't mean all things are equal between the schools. Undergrads are more likely to give to their schools than grad students so when you compare that number you see that Baylor has 15,000 undergrads, TCU has 10,500, and SMU with 6,800 aren't all that similar to each other. Per student, SMU blows BU and TCU out of the water with giving. You also have to focus on who is going to these schools too and while they do compete with each other for rich white Texans, SMU does not have the same football watching student base that you usually see at BU and TCU with so many of their students being from out of state.

 

As a CFB fan though I'd be excited to see SMU bankroll themselves into the ACC and hopefully form a great three rivalry with BU, TCU, and SMU in the future.

Edited by SimonBolivar
  • Hook 'Em 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/ncaafb/sports-world-reacts-to-stunning-acc-realignment/ar-AA1fGNYr

This article from this morning quoting a San Francisco reporter claims SMUCalFord to the A&P conference is a done deal.  Just doing the paperwork.  I don't consider this authoritative, but its the first one I've seen saying it is definitely happening.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

48 minutes ago, USC Traveler said:

Looks like Stanford and Cal have learned nothing in realignment.  They seem to think nothing will change.

They thought the PAC (and media money) would always be there because they never thought USC would leave.

Now they're going to go ACC with a 30% share than won't reach 100% until 2036.  

What's going to happen when FSU, Clemson, Miami, UNC, etc all leave ?  

FSU people like Bud Elliot think FSU is leaving next year.  If not next year, the closer it gets to 2036, the more likely the exodus becomes.

Maybe that's the plan - join now so they get a 100% share of that billion dollars that FSU/Clemson are going to pay to get out of the GOR.

Edited by Texas Wahoo
  • Hook 'Em 1
  • Haha 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

50 minutes ago, USC Traveler said:

Looks like Stanford and Cal have learned nothing in realignment.  They seem to think nothing will change.

They thought the PAC (and media money) would always be there because they never thought USC would leave.

Now they're going to go ACC with a 30% share than won't reach 100% until 2036.  

What's going to happen when FSU, Clemson, Miami, UNC, etc all leave ?  

FSU people like Bud Elliot think FSU is leaving next year.  If not next year, the closer it gets to 2036, the more likely the exodus becomes.

Once the BIG and SEC take the top ACC teams, ESPN will likely push the 2nd tier teams like UL, Pitt, etc to the B12 and let the conference dissolve completely.  At the very least,  ESPN will use the composition clause (standard in conference tv deals) to drastically reduce payments to the ACC.

Stanford and Cal are going to take $7-10m/yr to start, and there's a great chance the conference dissolves or gets hammered way down on revenue long before the Bay area schools start getting any real money.

They are setting themselves up for absolute disaster- Cal especially, given their finances and lack of ND connection/hope for BIG.

They would have been much better to get over their coastal elitism, academic snobbery and religious bigotry to try to be part of a BIG 18.

I guess being in a pod with BYU and playing teams in OK, KS, WV, etc was too much for them.

 

meh, I think everyone recognizes that 2036 is irrelevant at this point.  By 2030 all of this will be going on again and things will settle out.  Cal and Furd have zero shot at staying with the cool kids if they don't do this.  ACC gives them a 5-10% chance if they get their shit together and lean into their donor pool (a big ask and believe it when you see it).  Cal will get UCLA couch change money for at least a little while which will make up some of the gap but their leadership fucked them into this corner

  • Hook 'Em 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

58 minutes ago, bullet said:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/ncaafb/sports-world-reacts-to-stunning-acc-realignment/ar-AA1fGNYr

This article from this morning quoting a San Francisco reporter claims SMUCalFord to the A&P conference is a done deal.  Just doing the paperwork.  I don't consider this authoritative, but its the first one I've seen saying it is definitely happening.

That would put them at 17 and a half members. They could probably now get poached by the other three major conferences and survive it, especially when you see that they could also still add UConn, Tulane, USF, etc. to fill in some gaps.  In the interim, maybe this generates some extra cash to keep FSU and Clemson quiet for a few years.  If you're Wake, Cuse, BC, this is a big win.  You get to avoid being Washington State and Oregon State.   

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, CustersDoctor said:

I love historical reminders like this. Here's a little timeline.

July 21,2021 UT & OU announce that they are joining the SEC. The SEC will now have 16 teams.

July 21st-Sept 10th. The remaining Eight B12 schools are in full blown panic. They are all worried that the PAC12 will add the four best remaining Eight and that their school might not make the cut.

August 24th, 2021. The ACC, B1G & ACC try to counter the SEC coup with a piece of paper that loosely defines the meaningless alliance. It appeared stupid and meaningless at the time and it still appears that way. The Alliance may have eased the PAC12's mind for expansion. The PAC12 was convinced that they were super stable and were locked in as one of the top four conferences and that the BIG12 was on the outside looking in.

September 10th, 2021. The Big12 Adds Cincy, BYU, UCF & UH. The BIG12 is stabilized and united. Meanwhile, behind the scenes the B1G wants to get to 16 teams just like the SEC.  They begin back channel negotiations with USC/UO&ULCA. The Alliance will go down in the football realignment history books as the PAC12'S Neville Chamberlain moment.

Chamberlain, you could hold his head in the toilet, he'd still give you half of Europe.

  • Hook 'Em 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

24 minutes ago, TKthunder2 said:

ACC in 2031: Stanford, Cal, SMU, Wake, Duke, Syracuse, Boston College, Tufts, Brandeis, MIT, Boston U, and Emory

Don't wanna get ahead of myself but... maybe I could see Cal when a conference title in my lifetime. 

  • Hook 'Em 1
  • Haha 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, LTbear said:

Don't wanna get ahead of myself but... maybe I could see Cal when a conference title in my lifetime. 

C'mon man, you know that unless its Swimming, Water Polo, Rugby or Crew, Cal has no shot.  Even if they were in a League with UCSD, Panhandle State, Slippery Rock and Michigan Tech, they'd find a way to fuck it up

3 minutes ago, The Original Greaser Bob said:

200.gif

spacer.png

much more likely

  • Like 1
  • Haha 6
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Zhorn96 said:

C'mon man, you know that unless its Swimming, Water Polo, Rugby or Crew, Cal has no shot.  Even if they were in a League with UCSD, Panhandle State, Slippery Rock and Michigan Tech, they'd find a way to fuck it up

spacer.png

much more likely

Look I don't need this negativity in my life, muchacho.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, bullet said:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/ncaafb/sports-world-reacts-to-stunning-acc-realignment/ar-AA1fGNYr

This article from this morning quoting a San Francisco reporter claims SMUCalFord to the A&P conference is a done deal.  Just doing the paperwork.  I don't consider this authoritative, but its the first one I've seen saying it is definitely happening.

The 'rumors' are 100% focused on these exact three schools.  It would be odd if every leaky mouthpiece was getting it wrong.  

 

and also this week the Noles seem to have figured out the mute button. 

  • Hook 'Em 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, notre dame joe said:

and also this week the Noles seem to have figured out the mute button. 

They missed their 8/15 deadline without getting what they wanted, so it's back to working behind the scenes since they've got at least 22 months.

Their short term plan is probably to keep voting no on expansion until they extract the maximum amount of money from MethCalFord to at least let them redo the math.

  • Hook 'Em 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, LTbear said:

Don't wanna get ahead of myself but... maybe I could see Cal when a conference title in my lifetime. 

Their best shot was 2004 when A-aron was playing QB.

Problem is they had to play USC, who was in its best run ever (2002-2008).

If I recall A-aron got Cal to 1st and goal near the end of the game, but couldn't get it punched in.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, gatormarc said:

They missed their 8/15 deadline without getting what they wanted, so it's back to working behind the scenes since they've got at least 22 months.

Their short term plan is probably to keep voting no on expansion until they extract the maximum amount of money from MethCalFord to at least let them redo the math.

This is the most likely hypothesis I've heard yet.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.



×
×
  • Create New...