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Wulaw Horn

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1 minute ago, Mileslong said:


Oh, please report me, I bet you made a great hall monitor you little pussy.

Just answer my question, did you vote for trump?

Dude you're acting like such a fucking loser. I'm reporting you because I enjoy posting here and you're getting in the way of me and others here having a decent discussion in this thread. This is a thread about the landscape of professional golf going forward and you're stuck on asking people who they voted for in an election that happened over 18 months ago. No one gives a shit who you voted for or who any of us did. Go to bed. Hopefully a mod gives you a timeout for being a raging idiot. 

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Dude you're acting like such a fucking loser. I'm reporting you because I enjoy posting here and you're getting in the way of me and others here having a decent discussion in this thread. This is a thread about the landscape of professional golf going forward and you're stuck on asking people who they voted for in an election that happened over 18 months ago. No one gives a shit who you voted for or who any of us did. Go to bed. Hopefully a mod gives you a timeout for being a raging idiot. 

All I asked was one simple question, you’re the one blowing it out of proportion. By calling me names. I didn’t call you names. Just please answer my question, it will give some perspective on the topic and I’ll shut up about it
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3 minutes ago, Mileslong said:


All I asked was one simple question, you’re the one blowing it out of proportion. By calling me names. I didn’t call you names. Just please answer my question, it will give some perspective on the topic and I’ll shut up about it

I wrote in Obama. 

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7 minutes ago, Mileslong said:


Lol ok. So you believe LIV will grow the game?

I believe that you should quit posting for the night. You've dug yourself quite a hole. 

Oh - btw - my 2020 vote is on record here. You're welcome to do some research. 

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BDC said “it’s strictly a business decision.”  That’s about as close to “it’s all about the money” as you can get. 
Phil said the tour is unbelievably greedy and has talked about nothing but things like digital rights that are clearly “this is all about the money”

when they hit the first T-shot of the first tourney they held they had a pregame song and it was “money money money money, money”. 
I don’t think anyone is trying to hide that the reason they are doing this is for the money. 
mare there some secondary concerns?  Sure. Some of the older guys have talked about trying to get more family life balance while also making more money and I absolutely believe them to sh this is part of that. They still want to provide “money” but they also want to be more present and that’s a pretty typical feeling for a man to have as he approaches middle age, takes stock of his life, she’s his time with his kids is fleeting and ponders what he wants to do about all that. I have no reason to disbelieve them when they say that quality of life in earning the money is trumping legacy of playing on tour and winning championships, for many guys like Sergio who have “been there done that” and not likely to get into the winners circle again. 
 

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11 minutes ago, ztejas said:

I wrote in Obama. 

I write in Mickey Mouse every four years, what do we have to do to get your vote sir? The most important thing on Earth to cloak room transvestites is voting for a blue president it's so precious.

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I believe that you should quit posting for the night. You've dug yourself quite a hole. 
Oh - btw - my 2020 vote is on record here. You're welcome to do some research. 

I’ve dug a hole? Explain? I’m asking you a question, how will LIV grow the game? There are already tours in the countries that LIV plays.
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Leftoids big mad about the LIV for some strange reason. Isn't the PGA also wasist?
I think it's cool, all those tax dollars consolidating a puppet state in the ME being put to interesting use by MBS

This is exactly what I’m talking about. I’m an independent who quit voting. You guys just can’t hide your true colors
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I’d really rather this thread not turn into a political one bc that’s not at all what this schism is about (at least in the Golf world which is what I’m talking about). Are both sides maybe preaching to different political groups?  Sure. But neither care about that and are cynically trying to rile up the rubes one way or another in an effort to get public opinion on their side. 
this is really about whose going to own golf and it’s landscape going forward- not politics or oil or anything like that from the golf side of the equation. Is it going to be the pga tour or is it going to be Norman and his vision of a super elite global league that pays the stars the big money he thinks they deserve, probably at the expense of the grinders on tour, in a format he’s literally been trying to put together since about 1992. 

Edited by Wulaw Horn
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4 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

I’d really rather this thread not turn into a political one bc that’s not at all what this schism is about

There's just one dipshit in here doing that. Mods need to do something about it. I've already seen plenty of us discuss the issue congenitally despite differing political views. 

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7 minutes ago, Mileslong said:


This is exactly what I’m talking about. I’m an independent who quit voting. You guys just can’t hide your true colors

You aren't an independent if you have a hard on for finding out who people voted for. 

I mean mainly you're a fucking dickhead for trying to ruin a thread that had some nice traction. 

Edited by ztejas
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BDC said “it’s strictly a business decision.”  That’s about as close to “it’s all about the money” as you can get. 
Phil said the tour is unbelievably greedy and has talked about nothing but things like digital rights that are clearly “this is all about the money”
when they hit the first T-shot of the first tourney they held they had a pregame song and it was “money money money money, money”. 
I don’t think anyone is trying to hide that the reason they are doing this is for the money. 
mare there some secondary concerns?  Sure. Some of the older guys have talked about trying to get more family life balance while also making more money and I absolutely believe them to sh this is part of that. They still want to provide “money” but they also want to be more present and that’s a pretty typical feeling for a man to have as he approaches middle age, takes stock of his life, she’s his time with his kids is fleeting and ponders what he wants to do about all that. I have no reason to disbelieve them when they say that quality of life in earning the money is trumping legacy of playing on tour and winning championships, for many guys like Sergio who have “been there done that” and not likely to get into the winners circle again. 
 

Fair enough, but everyone of them had other reasons which are insincere at best. Regarding families, BDC said he was doing it for his family err future family. That’s a first. They’re already rich and went to be richer, ok, just don’t sugarcoat it with this growing the game, spend more time with the family bs.

Just say what it is, everyone has a price and they sold their legacy’s for that price. They also need to be honest about why the Saudis are doing it, it’s not to affect positive change, they aren’t changing Sharia Law. It’s to try to get the world to forget about their favorite pastime which is cutting peoples heads off.

The other thing they won’t be honest about is Greg Norman’s reason for doing this. He wants to take the PGA down, period .
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You aren't an independent if you have a hard on for finding out who people voted for. 
I mean mainly you're a fucking dickhead for trying to ruin a thread that had some nice traction. 

You seem to be missing my point. My point being that there is this strange phenomenon happening which is bringing more divisiveness into a sports issue for strictly political reasons.

If the PGA hasn’t move the PGA championships venue, this pro Saudi movement would be cut by about 75%. Its bringing in people who don’t even follow golf. They’re are suddenly interested in labor laws and the rights of independent contractors.
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4 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

I’d really rather this thread not turn into a political one bc that’s not at all what this schism is about (at least in the Golf world which is what I’m talking about). Are both sides maybe preaching to different political groups?  Sure. But neither care about that and are cynically trying to rile up the rubes one way or another in an effort to get public opinion on their side. 
this is really about whose going to own golf and it’s landscape going forward- not politics or oil or anything like that from the golf side of the equation. Is it going to be the pga tour or is it going to be Norman and his vision of a super elite global league that pays the stars the big money he thinks they deserve, probably at the expense of the grinders on tour, in a format he’s literally been trying to put together since about 1992. 

The top 48 who want to should play LIV and some combination of the Tour Championship, The Players Championship, St. Jude Championship, BMW Championship, U.S. Open, Genesis Invitational, Arnold Palmer Invitational, Memorial Tournament, Masters, PGA Championship, and the Open. The rest of the field that doesn't want to do LIV can play all the PGA tour events. The PGA can try to punish their players for playing in the different tour I guess but it may backfire for them.

I just don't see why players choosing what events they want to play in is a deal breaker for the PGA. 

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this letter was pretty funny, it's like a middle school writing project. Money, money, and more money is in there. Then the nod to Jack and Arnie, as well as Tiger and Phi.. no not Phil fuck him... Countless others...

 

 

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38 minutes ago, Mileslong said:

These LIV players from the US want to spend more time with their families, that’s why they are going to join the European tour lmao…

You are making it about one thing when it doesn’t have to only be one thing. 
you get a job offer for more money. Cool. I’m really interested in taking this job bc the money is great. What’s that- I also don’t have to be a road warrior anymore, I can WFH and go from 70% of my time on the road to 25% and be more present with my family. Cool. The money is probably the driver for most of them or what made them consider the move in the first place, but that doesn’t mean they can’t have more than one reason. 

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1 hour ago, Wulaw Horn said:

You are making it about one thing when it doesn’t have to only be one thing. 
you get a job offer for more money. Cool. I’m really interested in taking this job bc the money is great. What’s that- I also don’t have to be a road warrior anymore, I can WFH and go from 70% of my time on the road to 25% and be more present with my family. Cool. The money is probably the driver for most of them or what made them consider the move in the first place, but that doesn’t mean they can’t have more than one reason. 

Just stop engaging him. Please. 

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Good god,  the retardedness in here. Yeah,  the Saudis suck. But for fucks sake. 12 54 hole events a year and you get 100 to 200 million just to show up. 4 million if you win. 120k if you take dfl.  I dont blame anyone for turning that down. Augusta didn't allow black or female members until this century. Shinnecock said fuck it, we don't need a tourney if you are going to make us allow blacks. Preston trail kicked tiger.... fucking tiger...off the range when he was there practicing with Byron because he was "too young". 

The pga tour and those associated with it have plenty of skeletons. The LIV sucks right now but I support chaos and shaking up the system. I just wish Phil would articulate (if he has one)  his position better. More money for guys at the bottom. Guaranteed money every week. Stipend money for room and board for caddies.  Yeah,  pga players are playing for a ton of money but you are looking at around a million a year in costs to compete on a full tour schedule with travel, caddie, etc. No one bitches about a special teams guy in the NFL that plays 8 plays a game getting the minimum. Why shouldn't the pga tour do the same?   If LIV is what changes it,  then good. 

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51 minutes ago, pops said:

Good god,  the retardedness in here. Yeah,  the Saudis suck. But for fucks sake. 12 54 hole events a year and you get 100 to 200 million just to show up. 4 million if you win. 120k if you take dfl.  I dont blame anyone for turning that down. Augusta didn't allow black or female members until this century. Shinnecock said fuck it, we don't need a tourney if you are going to make us allow blacks. Preston trail kicked tiger.... fucking tiger...off the range when he was there practicing with Byron because he was "too young". 

The pga tour and those associated with it have plenty of skeletons. The LIV sucks right now but I support chaos and shaking up the system. I just wish Phil would articulate (if he has one)  his position better. More money for guys at the bottom. Guaranteed money every week. Stipend money for room and board for caddies.  Yeah,  pga players are playing for a ton of money but you are looking at around a million a year in costs to compete on a full tour schedule with travel, caddie, etc. No one bitches about a special teams guy in the NFL that plays 8 plays a game getting the minimum. Why shouldn't the pga tour do the same?   If LIV is what changes it,  then good. 

You probably voted for Trump though. 

And damn - you didn't even get into Trevino. 

Edited by ztejas
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13 LIV players from the last tournament plus Reed and Bryson qualified for the US Open:

DJ - T24

Richard Bland - T43

Reed - T49

Bryson - T56

Phil - MC

Sergio - MC

Oostie - MC 

Kevin Na - MC

James Piot - MC 

Taylor Gooch - MC

Brandon Grace - MC

Sam Horsfield - MC

Jinichiro Kozuma - MC

Jed Morgan - MC

Shaun Norris - MC
 

All except Bland will lose rank in the OWGR. 

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2 hours ago, heso said:

13 LIV players from the last tournament plus Reed and Bryson qualified for the US Open:

DJ - T24

Richard Bland - T43

Reed - T49

Bryson - T56

Phil - MC

Sergio - MC

Oostie - MC 

Kevin Na - MC

James Piot - MC 

Taylor Gooch - MC

Brandon Grace - MC

Sam Horsfield - MC

Jinichiro Kozuma - MC

Jed Morgan - MC

Shaun Norris - MC
 

All except Bland will lose rank in the OWGR. 

All still hungover from the huge pay days. 

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On 6/16/2022 at 9:30 AM, Wulaw Horn said:

Ok- well- that's the government- both parties- they are a bunch of unprincipled shit heads.  Cool.   Did you know Saudi Arabia is the 2nd biggest trading partner for the United States?  Behind- I believe- only Commie, human rights violating China?  Well that sounds bad.  That's all of us with the trading.

I don't think that's accurate. https://www.visualcapitalist.com/us-largest-trading-partners-2022/

But regardless, I agree its pointless to pursue the blood money angle when plenty of US companies (including PGA partners like Citi) are pulling tens of millions out SA. I have my own selfish reasons for wanting to see the LIV tour fail (time zones, 3 day/shotgun start format, team bullshit, Norman is a tool) but doing "business" with the Saudis ain't one of them. Exxon is so proud of it, they have a whole section of their website talking about how they "contribute to the Kingdom's economic and social goals." 

https://corporate.exxonmobil.com/Locations/Saudi-Arabia

I don't see Exxon catching a lot of shit for it. And its the O&G money that is paying for the LIV in the first place. I aint gonna shit on a guy like James Piot for cashing in on the Saudis when plenty of American companies are doing the same. 

Edited by Blotto
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3 minutes ago, Blotto said:

I don't think that's accurate. https://www.visualcapitalist.com/us-largest-trading-partners-2022/

But regardless, I agree its pointless to pursue the blood money angle when plenty of US companies (including PGA partners like Citi) are pulling tens of millions out SA. I have my own selfish reasons for wanting to see the LIV tour fail (time zones, 3 day/shotgun start format, team bullshit, Norman is a tool) but doing "business" with the Saudis ain't one of them. Exxon is so proud of it, they have a whole section of their website talking about they "contribute to the Kingdom's economic and social goals." 

https://corporate.exxonmobil.com/Locations/Saudi-Arabia

I don't see Exxon catching a lot of shit for it. And its the O&G money that is paying for the LIV in the first place. I aint gonna shit on a guy like James Piot for cashing in on the Saudis when plenty of American companies are doing the same. 

All of this. 
The bolded I read or heard but did not fact check. It seems plausible with the oil. If not apologies, it doesn’t change the overriding point. 
 

I’m not emotionally invested in this succeeding. It’s pretty fascinating to me to see it play out. If it fails and guys like Reed and DJ and BDC have to eat a shit burger that’s funny to me. If it succeeds and creates some cool tournaments or events I’m good with that too. 

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It’s just sort of time for the tour to deal with this. The modern tour is coming up on 50 or so years of status quo. Baseball had a big shake up around the turn of the century 50 or so years in before it became consolidated in its present form. The NFL had the USFL come for it in the 80’s and the nba with the ABA in the 70’s- all about the same point in their life cycle. It’s just time for some disruption. 

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7 hours ago, Jive Turkey said:

 

"Joining Sergio's team" -- don't they re-draft teams every tournament (which is unbelievably stupid, btw)

For now it's a Mickey Mouse tour. Jon Rahm's presser this week was as good a take as I've heard on it without getting into the ickiness of getting in the mud with MBS 

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14 hours ago, Wulaw Horn said:

I think I had him on the other thread as a guy I’d definitely target (ancer)

that wouldn’t be as big, obviously, as Xavier, Koepka, Hovland and Morikowa. 

I think Koepka is holding back till LIV ups their offer.  LIV schedule and money is a better match up for his lifestyle, and paying for that new wife is not cheap.

Koepka also needs to take the money and run before his body completely breaks down.  

 

Edited by LTtxfan
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2 hours ago, LTtxfan said:

I think Koepka is holding back till LIV ups their offer.  LIV schedule and money is a better match up for his lifestyle, and paying for that new wife is not cheap.

Koepka also needs to take the money and run before his body completely breaks down.  

 

Koepka doesn’t like golf in general, and really doesn’t like run off the mill tournaments in particular. There’s no doubt in my mind he’s working to get to that “tour” and the negotiation is just about money. 

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2 hours ago, LTtxfan said:

I think Koepka is holding back till LIV ups their offer.  LIV schedule and money is a better match up for his lifestyle, and paying for that new wife is not cheap.

Koepka also needs to take the money and run before his body completely breaks down.  

 

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I find this whole thing funny. Golf as an entire institution is all about the money. Country Clubs are about the money. Half the people I know that play golf don't actually enjoy it. They play it because they have reached a level of wealth where it is expected you join a club and golf to network with other rich dudes.

Some pros are cashing a big fat check and now all of a sudden other rich guys are upset. Golf is one big wealth show off hobby, and the Saudis take showing off wealth to the extreme.

It's totally consistent with everything golf is about.

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20 hours ago, Blotto said:

I don't think that's accurate. https://www.visualcapitalist.com/us-largest-trading-partners-2022/

But regardless, I agree its pointless to pursue the blood money angle when plenty of US companies (including PGA partners like Citi) are pulling tens of millions out SA. I have my own selfish reasons for wanting to see the LIV tour fail (time zones, 3 day/shotgun start format, team bullshit, Norman is a tool) but doing "business" with the Saudis ain't one of them. Exxon is so proud of it, they have a whole section of their website talking about how they "contribute to the Kingdom's economic and social goals." 

https://corporate.exxonmobil.com/Locations/Saudi-Arabia

I don't see Exxon catching a lot of shit for it. And its the O&G money that is paying for the LIV in the first place. I aint gonna shit on a guy like James Piot for cashing in on the Saudis when plenty of American companies are doing the same. 

First of all, let me say that I agree with all of this.

But let me add a couple points:

1) Even though I agree with the point, Phil is just so naked and gross about it that it makes me think that maybe I don't agree with it.  If you want to get in bed with such people, I understand.  It's very lucrative.  And I'm not going to second-guess anybody for going out and making money.  But don't run around talking about what "scary motherfuckers" the Saudis are while you're notoriously taking their money. 

At least Exxon has the fucking decency to try to clean that up a bit.

2) And all of that is why I don't think this tour will last.  The entire point from the Saudi perspective is PR.  It'll never make money; that's not the point.  It's entirely about making the Saudis seem normal and part of regular society.

It's no different from Roman Abromavich buying Chelsea or Qatar buying the World Cup.  But guess what--people aren't going to abandon their football team just because a dirty Russian oligarch owns it (especially if he is going to dump billions of dollars into it).  And nobody is going to forego watching the World Cup just because the venues were built with slave labor.

But there's a big damned difference between that and starting a new league.  Nobody has any loyalty to it.  Bryson Dechambeau is not fucking Chelsea.  For a Chelsea fan, you would probably just quit watching football if Chelsea evaporated.  Even the biggest Dechambeau fan doesn't feel that way about him.  

I don't see the benefit to the Saudis--nobody ever watched an MLB game because they loved Bud Selig.  It seems the best outcome for them is if nobody ever knew they owned it.  

But they do.  And their involvement has become the primary point of discussion of the tour (as this thread evidences).  And it's not favorable for the Saudis.  I actually think that starting this tour has hurt them in the American public perception.  And if that's the case--and I'm sure they have pollsters who will tell them whether that's the case--then they'll just pull up stakes and call it quits.

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Supposedly LIV players get 60% up front, but can be dropped if better players are added??

Example:  So a guy like Pat Perez might be offered $10mill to sign with LIV, but is dropped in Yr 1 and ends up with between $6-7mill and can't return to the PGA (Does not include agent fees, and income taxes taken out...)

Interesting video...

 

Edited by LTtxfan
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2 hours ago, Ghost of LL said:

First of all, let me say that I agree with all of this.

But let me add a couple points:

1) Even though I agree with the point, Phil is just so naked and gross about it that it makes me think that maybe I don't agree with it.  If you want to get in bed with such people, I understand.  It's very lucrative.  And I'm not going to second-guess anybody for going out and making money.  But don't run around talking about what "scary motherfuckers" the Saudis are while you're notoriously taking their money. 

At least Exxon has the fucking decency to try to clean that up a bit.

2) And all of that is why I don't think this tour will last.  The entire point from the Saudi perspective is PR.  It'll never make money; that's not the point.  It's entirely about making the Saudis seem normal and part of regular society.

It's no different from Roman Abromavich buying Chelsea or Qatar buying the World Cup.  But guess what--people aren't going to abandon their football team just because a dirty Russian oligarch owns it (especially if he is going to dump billions of dollars into it).  And nobody is going to forego watching the World Cup just because the venues were built with slave labor.

But there's a big damned difference between that and starting a new league.  Nobody has any loyalty to it.  Bryson Dechambeau is not fucking Chelsea.  For a Chelsea fan, you would probably just quit watching football if Chelsea evaporated.  Even the biggest Dechambeau fan doesn't feel that way about him.  

I don't see the benefit to the Saudis--nobody ever watched an MLB game because they loved Bud Selig.  It seems the best outcome for them is if nobody ever knew they owned it.  

But they do.  And their involvement has become the primary point of discussion of the tour (as this thread evidences).  And it's not favorable for the Saudis.  I actually think that starting this tour has hurt them in the American public perception.  And if that's the case--and I'm sure they have pollsters who will tell them whether that's the case--then they'll just pull up stakes and call it quits.

A few counterpoints:

Phil isn’t running around public nakedly talking about the Saudi’s it was a conversation that o don’t believe he thought was going to get aired out (though completely his fault for not saying “off the record”) beforehand. 
Those guys are so used to dealing with obsequious journos that need them that I don’t believe it really crossed his mind that he was going to be put in a bad light. Similar to Tiger with GQ when he was getting adulation from e wry one else- and was surprised he couldn’t essentially control what they printed about him after the fact. So yeah- Phil is saying the quiet part out loud but I don’t think he necessarily realized he was doing it- if that makes sense. 
2) people are making a big deal about the tour and saying it can’t be profitable but I don’t know if that’s true. Apparently they are looking to spend 2 billion or something like that. In a world where the Minnesota Timberwolves just sold for 1.5 and the Denver Broncos just sold for 4.5 it’s conceivable that a $2 billion spend for a golf Tour isn’t a bad deal- if they can make it work and actually drink the PGA tours milkshake. Especially if it goes world wide. 
team owners like Denver spend 4.5 billion in acquisition costs and eke out a paltry 100 million or 200 million yearly profit all the time. 
The PGA tour gave away (according to them) 203 million last year in charity. They also had net operating income I’m sure. If you consider the bribes to entice pros to come over to play as separate from operating costs (and I think it’s logical to conceptualize it that way) then they are probably only spending 250 or 300 million on prize money and operations. They aren’t making that back this year of course, but going forward in the future if they had 10 or 12 events worldwide with the majority of the players being top 50 types that could be a valuable property that could scratch out some operating income. 
my suspicion is the Saudis are in this for the long game and it’s also a flex for them, but that’s obviously just a guess. 
If You view this as a toy for MBS et al to play with like Ballmer and the Clippers then you shrug your shoulders and say- “sure, I guess that makes sense.”  
 

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42 minutes ago, 4th&Five said:

 

The LIV always made sense for Koepka. But, as the biggest dickhead in golf it could be a troll. 
tomorrows Tuesday. Todays a holiday.  Big news always drops on a Tuesday, right? 

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