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Wulaw Horn

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5 minutes ago, Jive Turkey said:

those may be the 2 announcements for today, but we will get several more before the Portland event.  hopefully these are the biggest.

Hovland and Xander would be huge gets for that tour but Morikowa would just be one they breaks the dam in my opinion. 
he finished 11th with no money in the PIP last year but that dude has so much game and is so young (and if not likeable at least not unlikeable) that it would have to be eye opening in a way no one else has truly been. They have some guys in their late prime (or maybe in their prime but hobbled like BDC) but they don’t have an ascendant star yet. Morikowa would be that, obviously.  

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Maybe Brooks is jumping, so he can keep the feud/rivalry with BDC alive. 
I get that Brooks doesn't really want to play a full PGA tour schedule, but that dude is going to miss the glitz & glamour of PGA events. He is lots of things, one of them being an attention whore; if/when he wins an LIV event he will realize how little attention it draws. 


Then again money talks and suckers walk .... only time will tell how this turns out. 
I'm old enough to remember when the USFL started up and signed a few stars to big $$$ contracts, I was too young to understand the ABA impact. 
Also, if the Saudi's don't get what they want from having this tour (and I'm not even sure what their objectives include), this will go away in a blink of an eye. So I hope players get their coins of silver up front. Because I doubt they can sue for damaged reputation if they have to come back to the tour, hat in hand, in a few years.

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53 minutes ago, StruggleBus said:

I mentioned before but I still see this as a major opportunity for the DP world tour, especially if the LIV tour events don't earn OWGR points. Let the LIV players qualify for majors through DP world tour events. God, the PGA tour might be fucked. 
 

Yep.  Tournament events around the Open, and around the LIV overseas events (couple weeks before and couple weeks after) should be seeing some much better fields with guys on the LIV that aren't auto into majors participating I would think.  The DP tour felt like it was dying- this reverses that I would think.  Less impact if the LIV gets world golf points or the Tour ends their embargo, obviously.

 

 

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1 hour ago, conVINCEd said:

Most good players don’t play in the fall.  Or play very sporadically.   The guys need an offseason to recharge their batteries and work on their game.  If I was a top 20 guy this would piss me off. 

Article was amended to provide that the events will be scattered through the year.

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1 hour ago, conVINCEd said:

Most good players don’t play in the fall.  Or play very sporadically.   The guys need an offseason to recharge their batteries and work on their game.  If I was a top 20 guy this would piss me off. 

looks like they won't all be in the fall.  they'll be sporadically throughout the year.

 

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2 hours ago, Wally Fairway said:

Maybe Brooks is jumping, so he can keep the feud/rivalry with BDC alive. 

This made me lol. Well played. 

This move isn't surprising at all from Koepka. I guess he wanted to put in one more listless performance at a major before having it be a distraction. 

Also - I'm not sure any of these guys believe for a second they will never be able to play on the PGA again. So let's consider that. 

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I can't fathom any way that the tour can punish guys who resigned the tour status before going out to the LIV tour, without changing their guidelines, and I don't see how they can change their guidelines retroactively to keep people out that resigned them and then joined.  The tour has never, to my knowledge, had any care or concern for what you did when you were not a tour member- and I can't imagine punishing a non-tour member who played on the LIV tour someday would make any legal sense or standing.  

IT will be interesting to see how the majors rule on if they want guys from the LIV there or not.  I don't see how it benefits the Masters to not have DJ, Koepka or BDC play there in 2025 for example (when their exemptions will be up) in keeping solidarity with the PGA Tour. You would think the R&A would side with the Euro's and allow all those guys to play the open. That means that they are voting to award OGWR points to the LIV, which means it katy bar the doors on the exit from the PGA Tour- which means those guys will probably do something. 

Also- maybe everyone who crucified Phil for saying the tour is incredibly greedy should consider that the second it was in their interest to do so they immediately found another $250,000,000 in prize money for the top guys, without breaking a sweat.  

To me- this says three things:

1) The tour had the money all the time and was hoarding it

2) The LIV could return a profit (ignoring the bribery they are giving players- which I consider acquisition costs not operating costs) over a long enough time period

3) This LIV thing doesn't make sense if the tour is going to shower free money on the top 50 guys.  Which they probably should have always been doing, because those guys have earned it.  Between the PIP points to the top 10 in engagement and now this money the guys up top are now getting taken care of.  Which is what Phil claimed to always be trying to do.  So yeah, it played out the way he thought it would only he got burned and torched in the process.  I don't expect he ever receives any thanks from guys like Rory or the like- and he was obviously doing it for his own benefit- but if all that happens then basically the tour is doing what Norman wanted it to do in the early 90's and Phil wanted it to do more recently, and I think golf fans benefit.  

 

As an aside- I'm glad to see them back to a calendar year schedule- always hated the wrap around.  I'm sure the big guys did too. That always seemed like a giveaway to the dew scrapers/rabbits on tour.  I don't need to get rid of those events per se- just play them all during the fall/winter and after the fed ex cup- and make it be silly season for the big guns if they want to play/work on something and a race to keep your card for the irrelevant types.  

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7 minutes ago, ztejas said:

Am I missing anyone? This is just as many as displayed on the first page. 

Screenshot_20220621-134712-567.thumb.png.c2b345ec51a0baf577bdf8b39d4c9e43.png

Getting to be... not insignificant. 

Niemann isn't official yet but by all accounts he's gone. 

Serious smoke around Hovland and Xander.  Was smoke around Morikowa who seriously came out against.

 

Kokrak is gone at 33 isn't he?  Or is that still just rumor that he's basically confirmed through all public statements as I'd be really interested, that's a lot of money, I'd love to play less. 

If all of those guys go that's 10 of the top 35.  That's not insignificant, but I think they need one young star that guys like to jump along with to really bust the logjam.  Morikowa could have been that guy- looks like they swung and missed. So, that leaves it as Jordan, Rory, JT as the guys who could single handedly probably end it and reconcile the two events. 

With what the Tour is coming out with putting big money in the top players pockets though, I don't see a ton of incentive to switch now.  The tour might have put a stop to this. Or maybe not.  I guess I just don't know how much the guys value money today vs money you can reasonably expect to play for tomorrow.  


This thing keeps getting more and more interesting to me. 

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7 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

Niemann isn't official yet but by all accounts he's gone. 

Serious smoke around Hovland and Xander.  Was smoke around Morikowa who seriously came out against.

 

Kokrak is gone at 33 isn't he?  Or is that still just rumor that he's basically confirmed through all public statements as I'd be really interested, that's a lot of money, I'd love to play less. 

If all of those guys go that's 10 of the top 35.  That's not insignificant, but I think they need one young star that guys like to jump along with to really bust the logjam.  Morikowa could have been that guy- looks like they swung and missed. So, that leaves it as Jordan, Rory, JT as the guys who could single handedly probably end it and reconcile the two events. 

With what the Tour is coming out with putting big money in the top players pockets though, I don't see a ton of incentive to switch now.  The tour might have put a stop to this. Or maybe not.  I guess I just don't know how much the guys value money today vs money you can reasonably expect to play for tomorrow.  


This thing keeps getting more and more interesting to me. 

Spieth is still a brand but I think Scottie moves the needle more at this point. He's the clear world #1 and has been tearing it up. 

Honestly - I think any one of Scottie, Rory, JT, Morikawa, Rahm or Spieth leaving would really force the Tour's hand. The PGA can't lose any of those guys. 

We can't act like Koepka isn't a big get. But he's just never been that electric week to week and no one seems to like him. I don't think people necessarily tune in to cheer against him the way Bryson polarizes fans, either. 

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15 minutes ago, ztejas said:

Spieth is still a brand but I think Scottie moves the needle more at this point. He's the clear world #1 and has been tearing it up. 

Honestly - I think any one of Scottie, Rory, JT, Morikawa, Rahm or Spieth leaving would really force the Tour's hand. The PGA can't lose any of those guys. 

We can't act like Koepka isn't a big get. But he's just never been that electric week to week and no one seems to like him. I don't think people necessarily tune in to cheer against him the way Bryson polarizes fans, either. 

If it is correct that any of Scottie, Rory, JT, Morikawa, Rahm or Spieth leaving would force the tour's hand (by the way- I don't think MOrikawa or Rahm do it themselves and I think Spieth and McIlroy or a tier ahead of JT and Scottie- who are a tier ahead of Rahm and Morikawa) then maybe they should just go ahead and offer Spieth tree fiddy and make it happen and get it over with now.  


My suspicion is that the second the PGA tour no longer has an embargo up against guys going over is the second the LIV stops paying big and upfront money for those guys to come over and play- and maybe turns it into appearance fees for individual tournaments instead.  If its going to happen then one of those top 5 is leaving a ton of money on the table needlessly.  It's a living/breathing prisoners dilemna game unfolding in real time and through the media.  

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22 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

If it is correct that any of Scottie, Rory, JT, Morikawa, Rahm or Spieth leaving would force the tour's hand (by the way- I don't think MOrikawa or Rahm do it themselves and I think Spieth and McIlroy or a tier ahead of JT and Scottie- who are a tier ahead of Rahm and Morikawa) then maybe they should just go ahead and offer Spieth tree fiddy and make it happen and get it over with now.  

The only tier I was attempting to put them in was "hit the emergency button" if they leave. You can rank them however you want. I'm not sure Spieth is a top 2 asset to the PGA at the moment but it's possible. He had two top 3s at Majors last year, he's had a meh year this year. 

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4 hours ago, Wally Fairway said:

if the Saudi's don't get what they want from having this tour (and I'm not even sure what their objectives include)

A plaything to spend money on.  You know, instead of investing in their country and people.

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39 minutes ago, ztejas said:

The only tier I was attempting to put them in was "hit the emergency button" if they leave. You can rank them however you want. I'm not sure Spieth is a top 2 asset to the PGA at the moment but it's possible. He had two top 3s at Majors last year, he's had a meh year this year. 

I got that.  I think the first 4 names are hit the emergency button if they leave for sure- I'm not sure the last two are (Morikowa and Rahm- though they might be) but you are just as likely to be right as I am. I think Morikowa along with Hovland would be panic button time, just b/c them, Anser (maybe Wolffe- but it's trending away) are pretty clearly up and comers.  Morikowa is obviously more bankable than the other two, and a better player, but yeah. 

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41 minutes ago, Catpfish said:

So, since some of these guys have resigned from the PGA Tour, will they have to go through Q-School (if the LIV folds) or Monday qualifiers to play in a non-LIV American event?

I think they have to sit out a year for resigning their membership and I think they have to go through Q-school. They also should be allowed sponsors exemptions but the tour said no dice to that. If they resign, and also aren't playing on the LIV I don't see how the tour could keep them from getting sponsors exemptions though.  Remember- you get 6 a year I believe. 

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IMO Spieth is the top asset on tour (not named Tiger of course) but I don't ever expect him to play on tour again, and if he does it's likely to be like 1 or 2 events a year where he's a sponsor of, in addition to whatever majors he chooses to play (and I could see him never playing another US Open outside of somewhere special for him like Pebble). 

Spieth is young, good looking, American, has a Q rating through the roof with the old guys, has skins on the wall, has endorsements, has done everything in the game other than finish out a career grand slam, comes across as aw shucks, and the roller coaster makes you want to watch as he's likely to put up 11 circles and squares in 1 round and only 7  pars as to play a boring 70 with 3 birdies and 1 bogey and hitting fairways and greens.  Add that all up and he's #1 on tour I think.  The fact that every golf fan has the 3 most important tournaments (in some order) as Master, US Open, the Open and he's won them all is a big deal. Nobody cares about the PGA as a hole on your resume the way they do with Rory not winning the Masters or Phil not winning the US Open. 

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6 hours ago, Wally Fairway said:

Maybe Brooks is jumping, so he can keep the feud/rivalry with BDC alive. 
I get that Brooks doesn't really want to play a full PGA tour schedule, but that dude is going to miss the glitz & glamour of PGA events. He is lots of things, one of them being an attention whore; if/when he wins an LIV event he will realize how little attention it draws. 


Then again money talks and suckers walk .... only time will tell how this turns out. 
I'm old enough to remember when the USFL started up and signed a few stars to big $$$ contracts, I was too young to understand the ABA impact. 
Also, if the Saudi's don't get what they want from having this tour (and I'm not even sure what their objectives include), this will go away in a blink of an eye. So I hope players get their coins of silver up front. Because I doubt they can sue for damaged reputation if they have to come back to the tour, hat in hand, in a few years.

Seems to be drawing attention now thoguh.

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2 hours ago, Wulaw Horn said:

Spieth is young, good looking, American, has a Q rating through the roof with the old guys, has skins on the wall, has endorsements, has done everything in the game other than finish out a career grand slam, comes across as aw shucks, and the roller coaster makes you want to watch as he's likely to put up 11 circles and squares in 1 round and only 7  pars as to play a boring 70 with 3 birdies and 1 bogey and hitting fairways and greens.  Add that all up and he's #1 on tour I think.  The fact that every golf fan has the 3 most important tournaments (in some order) as Master, US Open, the Open and he's won them all is a big deal.

I agree with most of this, and that's why I place him as one of the most important players on tour despite having just 2 wins in the past 5 years. Still, you can have all the intangibles and be a fan favorite but ultimately you're easier to advertise when you're winning and contending more consistently. Spieth going to the LIV would be one thing - I think the #1 player in the world who has 4 wins on tour and a Masters and T2nd at the US on the year going to the LIV would be a pretty different can of worms. 

2 hours ago, Wulaw Horn said:

Nobody cares about the PGA as a hole on your resume the way they do with Rory not winning the Masters or Phil not winning the US Open. 

This is silly. A career slam is a career slam and majors are majors despite there being a bit of a hierarchy. One Masters isn't worth 2 PGA wins. I promise you not having a PGA burns Spieth especially because Rory, Brooks and JT all have 2 of them (Phil and Vijay, too). Sure he has the most impressive combination of 3 wins but he has 3 wins. I think the only thing that might let you have an argument against someone with more majors is a career slam (but we haven't seen one in 20 years). And obviously you can debate between guys with the same # like Phil vs. Trevino... 

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6 minutes ago, ztejas said:

I agree with most of this, and that's why I place him as one of the most important players on tour despite having just 2 wins in the past 5 years. Still, you can have all the intangibles and be a fan favorite but ultimately you're easier to advertise when you're winning and contending more consistently. Spieth going to the LIV would be one thing - I think the #1 player in the world who has 4 wins on tour and a Masters and T2nd at the US on the year going to the LIV would be a pretty different can of worms. 

This is silly. A career slam is a career slam and majors are majors despite there being a bit of a hierarchy. One Masters isn't worth 2 PGA wins. I promise you not having a PGA burns Spieth especially because Rory, Brooks and JT all have 2 of them (Phil and Vijay, too). Sure he has the most impressive combination of 3 wins but he has 3 wins. I think the only thing that might let you have an argument against someone with more majors is a career slam (but we haven't seen one in 20 years). And obviously you can debate between guys with the same # like Phil vs. Trevino... 

there is a calculation but it’s a sliding scale. Although in a vacuum 1 masters isn’t worth 2 pgas, I’d rather have masters, US open and open and exactly three majors than have none of those and 5 or 6 PGA’s. 
because of him missing the PgA he might take one of those over 2 more masters, which is a weird situation, but I wouldn’t, I’d rather win a couple masters than the 1 pga. I think. 
of course it’s easier to sell him when he wins, but he’s won Enough and been close enough in the majors these last 4 or 5 years that he’s still top of mind in public consciousness. 
I don’t think anyone views Spieth currently as a better golfer than Scotty. But Spieth is still more popular and well known, and I say that as someone who loves both guys. 

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I mentioned before but I still see this as a major opportunity for the DP world tour, especially if the LIV tour events don't earn OWGR points. Let the LIV players qualify for majors through DP world tour events. God, the PGA tour might be fucked. 
 

This guys can’t go join the DP Tour because that would mean they can’t spend more time with their families. I mean that’s the reason they are jumping right?
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1 hour ago, Wulaw Horn said:

there is a calculation but it’s a sliding scale. Although in a vacuum 1 masters isn’t worth 2 pgas, I’d rather have masters, US open and open and exactly three majors than have none of those and 5 or 6 PGA’s. 
because of him missing the PgA he might take one of those over 2 more masters, which is a weird situation, but I wouldn’t, I’d rather win a couple masters than the 1 pga. I think. 

You're going in different directions here. Or maybe it's because your valuation of each major varies wildly. In one example you're taking less over more - in the other you aren't. 

Every major is so far ahead of a normal tour win (maybe besides the Player's which is sort of a grey area) that I really can't fathom how x would ever not be more impressive than x-1 or x-2 unless, like I said, the guy with one less had a career slam. At the same time - almost anyone that's good enough to play on tour is capable of winning any 4 of them. What's hard is winning multiple, and increasingly hard is 3, 4, 5 etc. Even harder is winning all 4 because they all have their own flavor. Obviously the Masters is at the same course every year, the US typically presents the hardest playing conditions, the British is usually a different style of golf, and the PGA presents the best field every year. 

I don't care how you arrange them - placing 3 wins over 5 or 6 is just ridiculous to me in the modern era. Someone winning 5 PGA Championships nowadays would be the most ridiculous thing we've seen since Tiger. If the PGA is so trivial then why are multiple guys missing it for a career slam?

And like basically everyone I'd rank the PGA 4th in terms of prestige. But it's still a major. The PGA is much closer to the Masters than it is to any non-major in my book. 

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13 minutes ago, ztejas said:

You're going in different directions here. Or maybe it's because your valuation of each major varies wildly. In one example you're taking less over more - in the other you aren't. 

Every major is so far ahead of a normal tour win (maybe besides the Player's which is sort of a grey area) that I really can't fathom how x would ever not be more impressive than x-1 or x-2 unless, like I said, the guy with one less had a career slam. At the same time - almost anyone that's good enough to play on tour is capable of winning any 4 of them. What's hard is winning multiple, and increasingly hard is 3, 4, 5 etc. Even harder is winning all 4 because they all have their own flavor. Obviously the Masters is at the same course every year, the US typically presents the hardest playing conditions, the British is usually a different style of golf, and the PGA presents the best field every year. 

I don't care how you arrange them - placing 3 wins over 5 or 6 is just ridiculous to me in the modern era. Someone winning 5 PGA Championships nowadays would be the most ridiculous thing we've seen since Tiger. If the PGA is so trivial then why are multiple guys missing it for a career slam?

And like basically everyone I'd rank the PGA 4th in terms of prestige. But it's still a major. The PGA is much closer to the Masters than it is to any non-major in my book. 

It’s just an opinion, nothing more. There so much cachet for winning a green jacket. There’s worldwide reverence for the Open. Very many have the US Open number 1. The PGA just doesn’t have that love and attention and mind space. It’s always the little brother. I’m not saying it’s worthless to win or anything like that, it’s just not those other three championships. You get to go to the masters for life and the champions dinner and you are in the club. The Open you are the champion golfer of the world. There’s nothing remotely close to that with the PGA. It’s my opinion. You don’t agree. Cool. We don’t need to argue about it. I’ve yet to meet the golfer that ever talked about “this putt is for the pga championship.”  Id personally prefer the other three experiences to winning 6 pga’s. Easily. I think most people I know would say the same, historical comps be damned- you just really want those other three experiences. 

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19 minutes ago, Revolution512 said:

As predicted, we find out quickly the PGA can pay more. The folks pointing out the PGA Tour has been slow to respond to LIV are 100% accurate. This has been coming for two years, the Tour gets what it deserves here.

Top 50 owe Phil and Norman a thank you. And I doubt the tour is done. Especially if they lose a big(ger) name. 

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4 minutes ago, pops said:

Top 50 owe Phil and Norman a thank you. And I doubt the tour is done. Especially if they lose a big(ger) name. 

I asked my buddy who played professionally and he said yeah- those guys should send Phil a muffin basket or something by way of thanks. And he’d take the three majors over 6 pga’s all day every day. Said he’d take as few as 2 opens over 5 or 6 pga’s. Has never had a single convo with any golfer about the pga or winning it. That doesn’t make him or me or anyone else who thinks that right- it’s just not a super minority opinion.  

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5 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

I asked my buddy who played professionally and he said yeah- those guys should send Phil a muffin basket or something by way of thanks. And he’d take the three majors over 6 pga’s all day every day. Said he’d take as few as 2 opens over 5 or 6 pga’s. Has never had a single convo with any golfer about the pga or winning it. That doesn’t make him or me or anyone else who thinks that right- it’s just not a super minority opinion.  

Holy shit you're friends with Jordan Spieth? 

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11 minutes ago, ztejas said:

Holy shit you're friends with Jordan Spieth? 

Haha nope. Friends with a guy whose won a pga tournament that you’ve never heard of and another guy who played professionally that was better than the tour pro and won a couple mini’s and some college tournaments but didn’t have enough money or desire to grind or health to make it to the big tour.  
He’s pretty plugged in with a couple long time tour vets and a couple caddy’s from his playing days. I get some insight and have been around some of the guys a little bit. 
not like I’m some sort of insider but occasionally I hear things about certain famous pros being cuckolds to every minor league baseball player in the Carolina’s, or certain former major champion being taken down in big money games by some random assholes at his home club. Shit like that which is kind of fun/funny.  

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