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I’ll wait for you to actually denounce and condemn something meaningful that Trump does. That will be my entertainment these four years.
You gotta find amusement where you can. Your disingenuous gymnastics are good for that.

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1 minute ago, HOOKEM4 said:

So you are mad, like the other pardons Biden was a part of, for the pardon? Doesn't sound like it. Do you need to be personally impacted by crimes to give a shit? Does it need to be made more cut and dry by fox news night after night before you care? What is it that will allow you to be more objective with your opinions?

I don't think that a full and unconditional pardon was warranted. I think that a commutation for the nearly 10 years in prison would be appropriate. I haven't seen the actual pardon language, but if it leaves him at risk for prosecution for a murder for hire plot, that would seem appropriate. I haven't seen the fox news take, but feel free to post it and we can discuss.  

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4 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

I don't think that a full and unconditional pardon was warranted. I think that a commutation for the nearly 10 years in prison would be appropriate. I haven't seen the actual pardon language, but if it leaves him at risk for prosecution for a murder for hire plot, that would seem appropriate. I haven't seen the fox news take, but feel free to post it and we can discuss.  

You admitted to not understand the specifics but a commutation is appropriate? Really? Start by fully understanding what he did then come back, and no, I am not doing your research for you.

You have a habit of forming opinions wrapped fully around a lack of knowledge, acting like you are smart, then asking others to do your research for you. On top of it all, you clearly worship the orange god. It is either you are wildly uninformed, brainwashed or intentionally obtuse. 

Just post less.

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Imagine being a grown-up with a job and a retirement account and identifying as a libertarian.  So embarrassing. 

6 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Imagine being a grown-up with a job and a retirement account and identifying as a libertarian.  So embarrassing. 

I remember when I was 20 and thought I was a libertarian. Fun times. 

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32 minutes ago, Francisco 2.0 said:

 

 

“The people can always be brought to the bidding of their leaders. All you have to do is tell them that they are in danger of being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger.”      -Hermann Goering

“The best political weapon is the weapon of terror. Cruelty commands respect. Men may hate us. But, we don’t ask for their love; only for their fear.”   -Heinrich Himmler

“If there had been a strong democratic sentiment in Germany, Hitler would never have come to power . [Germans] deserved what they got when they went round crying for a hero.”   -AJP Taylor (historian)

“Whoever can conquer the street will one day conquer the state, for every form of power politics and any dictatorship-run state, has its roots in the street.”  -Joseph Goebbels

“Since the inception of the Nazi Party, social scientists have attempted to define its nature in terms of its membership. Scholars have described the party variously as a class movement, a regional movement, an anti-urban revolt against modernity, a generational revolt, even as a collection of losers, cut-throats and criminals.”   -Paul Madden, historian

 

I strongly believe Nazism is here in America. 

58 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

He's not "pro crime."  He's just an ardent believer in "if Trump did it, I can always explain it away/excuse it."

And laissez-faire capitalism

Edited by Pato del Muerto

35 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Blah blah blah.  Trump does it -- Ana finds a way to be okay with it, no matter what it is.  Anyone who opposes Trump does something?  Ana will always find some way or reason to condemn it.

It's fascinating to watch.

You insist that you're not a Trumper, while supporting/excusing him with more consistency than even many of the MAGAts I know.  That you fail to see it - or just deny it - is another layer of fascinating.

There's nothing fascinating about it. All the posters pretending at being an honest broker become clowns. Some rather quickly (LonghornLaw/Laphraig/another handle I forget), some on a bit longer timeline (TahoeHorn). Ana has reached the late stages here, having fooled a bunch of us for a long time, but getting near universal pushback on his nonsense. It's time to let him talk to the void more often. He avoids the buzz words, but like the others of his kind, he's "just asking questions."

First they said we needed a license to drive a car and I said nothing, because I was making toast…

1 hour ago, Francisco 2.0 said:

 

 

Finally, some good news. lol

Remove us from the WHO and then control what our native health agencies can say. Totally normal. 

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“This just shows that both sides are corrupt”

-Anastasis (probably) who is very serious about corruption 

Edited by Bozo_Casanova

Just take your money and burn it for warmth. It will be more useful than buying that scam.

8 minutes ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

“This just shows that both sides are corrupt”

-Anastasis (probably) who is very serious about corruption 

All the posters pretending at being an honest broker become clowns.

Buy the coin of your god bro.

Mr Rogers Clown GIF

39 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Imagine being a grown-up with a job and a retirement account and identifying as a libertarian.  So embarrassing. 

I've seen this sentiment a lot on Surly.  Can someone explain what aspects of libertarianism are in opposition to having a job and a retirement account?

I'm talking about definitional libertarianism, not the brand exhibited by the rightwing nutjobs that claim to be libertarian but are really just pro-gun, Evangelical Christian, MAGAts.

Just curious, because when I see the following definition, from Wikipedia, it resonates with me.

Quote

Libertarians advocate for the expansion of individual autonomy and political self-determination, emphasizing the principles of equality before the law and the protection of civil rights, including the rights to freedom of association, freedom of speech, freedom of thought and freedom of choice. They generally support individual liberty and oppose authority, state power, warfare, militarism and nationalism.

Thanks in advance

Edited by DixonHur

2 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

I've seen this sentiment a lot on Surly.  Can someone explain what aspects of libertarianism are in opposition to having a job and a retirement account?

I'm talking about definitional libertarianism, not the brand exhibited by the rightwing nutjobs that claim to be libertarian but are really just pro-gun, Evangelical Christian, MAGAts.

Just curious, because when I see the following definition, from Wikipedia, it resonates with me.

Thanks in advance

Retirement accounts wouldn't exist without the state. 

I had never paid attention to the Silk Road stuff.   Just finished the 1st part of this long form.   This is some wild stuff, end of the first part goes into murder for hire, and now I’m curious how he wasn’t charged for that.   Onto part 2.

https://www.wired.com/2015/04/silk-road-1/

1 minute ago, David Dennison said:

Retirement accounts wouldn't exist without the state. 

In a sense, they do, if you consider having a bigger arsenal and an easier position to defend than all your neighbors an "account." 

Because it’s not terribly different than communism: pie-in-the-sky concepts that sound lovely…and don’t survive their first contact with basic human nature. “Libertarianism” becomes a toxic stew of anarcho-capitalism, consolidated oligarchical power, and the tragedy of the commons. Just like communism immediately descends into a lack of real production and innovation, with the only success story being a small cadre of elites.
Do you like clean and reliable drinking water, fire protection, a network of usable and accessible roads, a somewhat educated population, basic shit like that? Libertarianism in practice hates those things. Nothing has value unless it can yield profit, and only maximum profit is good. There is no public or common good.

5 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Retirement accounts wouldn't exist without the state. 

Neither would taxes, so, profit? Nevermind that the sewers would be backing up into the streets.

21 minutes ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

“This just shows that both sides are corrupt”

-Anastasis (probably) who is very serious about corruption 

 

FYI - Yashar Ali is also on Blue Sky, which also embeds on Surly. Carry on.

 

1 minute ago, Hank_Hill said:

Neither would taxes, so, profit? Nevermind that the sewers would be backing up into the streets.

What sewers?

4 minutes ago, Ted Lange said:

I had never paid attention to the Silk Road stuff.   Just finished the 1st part of this long form.   This is some wild stuff, end of the first part goes into murder for hire, and now I’m curious how he wasn’t charged for that.   Onto part 2.

https://www.wired.com/2015/04/silk-road-1/

This part made me chuckle, given the recent posts

image.thumb.png.c0dca880979e73f36cf10033033c623b.png

12 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Retirement accounts wouldn't exist without the state. 

How so?  All my retirement savings are in the stock market.  

Not trying to be argumentative, I just want to learn.

Just now, DixonHur said:

How so?  All my retirement savings are in the stock market.  

Not trying to be argumentative, I just want to learn.

Do you think the stock market would exist without the state?

15 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

I've seen this sentiment a lot on Surly.  Can someone explain what aspects of libertarianism are in opposition to having a job and a retirement account?

I'm talking about definitional libertarianism, not the brand exhibited by the rightwing nutjobs that claim to be libertarian but are really just pro-gun, Evangelical Christian, MAGAts.

Just curious, because when I see the following definition, from Wikipedia, it resonates with me.

Thanks in advance

Definitionally, you wander into a contradiction because the existence of equality before “the law” and civil rights requires some form of authority and power (whether state or otherwise) to secure those things and so being for one while opposing the other is incoherent.  There are three ways to reconcile this contradiction:

1. Become an inveterate contrarian asshole who accepts the need for some state power and authority but constantly whines that the state can’t get the fine-tuning PERFECTLY right and therefore the whole exercise is illegitimate. 
 

2. Become an insufferable undergrad or online pseudo intellectual and prattle about how “private enterprise” or “anarchy-libertarianism” gets you out of this contradiction. 
 

3. Become a sovereign citizen loon.  This is really the most honest and at least entertaining option. 

4 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Do you think the stock market would exist without the state?

Bro crypto does bro

9 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Because it’s not terribly different than communism: pie-in-the-sky concepts that sound lovely…and don’t survive their first contact with basic human nature. “Libertarianism” becomes a toxic stew of anarcho-capitalism, consolidated oligarchical power, and the tragedy of the commons. Just like communism immediately descends into a lack of real production and innovation, with the only success story being a small cadre of elites.
Do you like clean and reliable drinking water, fire protection, a network of usable and accessible roads, a somewhat educated population, basic shit like that? Libertarianism in practice hates those things. Nothing has value unless it can yield profit, and only maximum profit is good. There is no public or common good.

But isn't this true of any social arrangement?

The libertarian concept I took from the above definition doesn't preclude taxation ...

Anyway, I understand the argument of simplistic, but I think all systems of government and economics suffer from the same fate when introduced to human nature.  I'd just like a system where the government is designed to take care of the citizens basic needs but no laws governing morality that doesn't infringe on anyone else's rights.  IE murder, theft, etc.

4 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Do you think the stock market would exist without the state?

I guess this is the area I need education on, the founding principles of libertarianism aren't based on anarchy, or no state at all.  

I just feel like the caricature of libertarianism has superseded the actual philosophy.  Maybe a new term is needed for what I consider libertarian.

4 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

But isn't this true of any social arrangement?

The libertarian concept I took from the above definition doesn't preclude taxation ...

Anyway, I understand the argument of simplistic, but I think all systems of government and economics suffer from the same fate when introduced to human nature.  I'd just like a system where the government is designed to take care of the citizens basic needs but no laws governing morality that doesn't infringe on anyone else's rights.  IE murder, theft, etc.

The question then becomes, what rights?

2 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

I guess this is the area I need education on, the founding principles of libertarianism aren't based on anarchy, or no state at all.  

I just feel like the caricature of libertarianism has superseded the actual philosophy.  Maybe a new term is needed for what I consider libertarian.

What's a word for someone who dislikes government until they need it?

3 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

The question then becomes, what rights?

Feels like given the current climate, we are going to have to rehash the whole fundamental basis of western civilization. 

3 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

But isn't this true of any social arrangement?

The libertarian concept I took from the above definition doesn't preclude taxation ...

Anyway, I understand the argument of simplistic, but I think all systems of government and economics suffer from the same fate when introduced to human nature.  I'd just like a system where the government is designed to take care of the citizens basic needs but no laws governing morality that doesn't infringe on anyone else's rights.  IE murder, theft, etc.

All of the arguments we have boil down to what it means to infringe upon rights and whose rights are favored.  An example that isn’t politically loaded: 

1. Surely you would say that I have a right to enjoy German polka music. In fact, I have a right to enjoy German polka music at any time I prefer. And I should be able to listen at any volume I prefer. 
 

2. But maybe you live next door and want to have the right to not listen to blaring German polka at all hours of the night.  And you can’t do that during my Wednesday night German polka rave. 
 

Neither one of us are morally wrong. Both of us have legitimate claims to be exercising our rights.  We are going to have to introduce a referee with the power to enforce standards and compromises. 
 

We can do this the normal way, with a government. Or the stupid libertarian way which will end with us arming an HOA and claiming it’s not a government because we don’t call it that. 

2 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Or the stupid libertarian way which will end with us arming an HOA

If y'all would only focus on the real Nazis in American we could bring down the price of eggs. 

The actual real Nazi inclined nationalists that still circulate in Eastern Europe are another matter entirely. Maybe someone gets to addressing that eventually.  

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Rather deal with the ones here first personally 

2 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

If y'all would only focus on the real Nazis in American we could bring down the price of eggs. 

Cheapest eggs around here are $4.53 a dozen.

What the fuck, Donald?

29 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Because it’s not terribly different than communism: pie-in-the-sky concepts that sound lovely…and don’t survive their first contact with basic human nature. “Libertarianism” becomes a toxic stew of anarcho-capitalism, consolidated oligarchical power, and the tragedy of the commons. Just like communism immediately descends into a lack of real production and innovation, with the only success story being a small cadre of elites.
Do you like clean and reliable drinking water, fire protection, a network of usable and accessible roads, a somewhat educated population, basic shit like that? Libertarianism in practice hates those things. Nothing has value unless it can yield profit, and only maximum profit is good. There is no public or common good.

Ironically, a bunch of Christofascist, mostly Catholic, assholes has co-opted the term "common good" for a scheme that achieves just that -- provided you think common good is defined by a bunch of Christofascist assholes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_good_constitutionalism

I'm sure you're quite aware of this, but posted for those who aren't.  IconoMacklemore is a cheerleader for this.

Just now, Hank_Hill said:

Rather deal with the ones here first personally 

I agree. Could bring down my protein and egg budget with a goat or two and a chicken coup on my plot. 

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EL OH FUCKING EL at Anastasis expressing Big Concern that there are violent, expansionist, authoritarian nationalists afoot in Eastern Europe after his shameful stance on Ukraine.  Total fucking clown post from a total fucking clown.  Go back to being dumb about Fauci. 

9 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

All of the arguments we have boil down to what it means to infringe upon rights and whose rights are favored.  An example that isn’t politically loaded: 

1. Surely you would say that I have a right to enjoy German polka music. In fact, I have a right to enjoy German polka music at any time I prefer. And I should be able to listen at any volume I prefer. 
 

2. But maybe you live next door and want to have the right to not listen to blaring German polka at all hours of the night.  And you can’t do that during my Wednesday night German polka rave. 
 

Neither one of us are morally wrong. Both of us have legitimate claims to be exercising our rights.  We are going to have to introduce a referee with the power to enforce standards and compromises. 
 

We can do this the normal way, with a government. Or the stupid libertarian way which will end with us arming an HOA and claiming it’s not a government because we don’t call it that. 

image.gif.b14fb7865b2ab1afc79bfba11dffc5f0.gif

5 hours ago, The Original Greaser Bob said:

Most Episcopalian's are nice but their conservative break-away gay-haters measure up against anyone.

Fort Worth diocese out front should a told ya. 

2 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

I agree. Could bring down my protein and egg budget with a goat or two and a chicken coup on my plot. 

Chicken coup?

8 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

All of the arguments we have boil down to what it means to infringe upon rights and whose rights are favored.  An example that isn’t politically loaded: 

1. Surely you would say that I have a right to enjoy German polka music. In fact, I have a right to enjoy German polka music at any time I prefer. And I should be able to listen at any volume I prefer. 
 

2. But maybe you live next door and want to have the right to not listen to blaring German polka at all hours of the night.  And you can’t do that during my Wednesday night German polka rave. 
 

Neither one of us are morally wrong. Both of us have legitimate claims to be exercising our rights.  We are going to have to introduce a referee with the power to enforce standards and compromises. 
 

We can do this the normal way, with a government. Or the stupid libertarian way which will end with us arming an HOA and claiming it’s not a government because we don’t call it that. 

It's actually something of a testament to the level of freedom we have achieved when the figurative polka aficionados are clashing with the figurative late-night silence aficionados in the highest tribunes of the land.

6 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

The actual real Nazi inclined nationalists that still circulate in Eastern Europe are another matter entirely

Maybe the real Nazis were the friends we made along the way

Edited by Bozo_Casanova

4 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

What's a word for someone who dislikes government until they need it?

I don't know.  I don't dislike government.  In fact I think government has a vital role in setting the rules of the game.  That said, I think that governments tend to overstep that role.  

Perfect world: 

  • Government provides common defense ...not "national interests", but legit, if we face aggression at home, we defend ourselves.
  • Government provides infrastructure (inclusive of utilities)
  • Government provides healthcare
  • Government provides education
  • Government provides regulatory environment
  • Government protects the borders and issues visas
  • Government sets tax rates
  • Government sets basic laws that 99% of sane people can agree on (IE no killing other people, no stealing from people, No diddling kids, etc)

Then...

  • Government stays the fuck out of my life

 

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