Jump to content

Israel


SmokeyBear1861

Recommended Posts

1 minute ago, Brian Fantana said:

This is horseshit dude. If you can't find it, you're not looking hard enough. Once again, you're ascribing the worst case scenario intentions on all pro-Palestinian voices. Frankly, I'm sick of engaging with you on it because you do not approach this subject in good faith, and you're simply blind to that.

ALL pro-Palestinian voices?  No.  Not ALL.  I've read some posters on here who I think get it right, for example.  I'm just telling you that finding a material number of voices that call for Palestinian rights and also acknowledge Israel's right to exist and be free of constant fear of genocidal attacks is hard.

Tell me where to look.  I'm dead serious.  I frequent pretty typical news sites, the BBC, etc.  I can't find them.  Al Jazeera (which is a decent source for a lot of other things) is TERRIBLE on this front.  CNN?  Fox News?  The Economist?  Help me out.  Where are those voices?  Because I can find jewish voices critical of the Bibi regime and its treatment of the Palestinians with minimal effort.  The counterpart of those voices on the Palestinian side....seriously, tell me where to look, and I'll go there and read/listen.

I'm confessing my ignorance.  Educate me.  Provide me the data/sources, and I'll go there.

  • Hook 'Em 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, 'stache said:

If you asked any of them what that means they couldn’t answer. They probably don’t even know how to identify a Jewish person who isn’t Orthodox. 

This sort of perspective minimizes the harm that comes from such stupidity. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

As opposed to quality content like “it’s really hard to distinguish palestinians generally from terrorists.”

You know I really do try to engage with you in good faith but when you don’t reciprocate it gets really tiresome. 
 

You know that Hamas is more than just “terrorists”. They’re the governing body in Gaza. It’s complicated separating that function from their violent conduct and consequently it’s complicated trying to separate the populace’s support. Look, I know it’s convenient for you to pose things as black and white so you can insult and misquote me, but doing so only solidifies your reputation as a dishonest troll.  
 

 

  • Hook 'Em 1
  • Like 1
  • Drool 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, DDD Dad said:

You know that Hamas is more than just “terrorists”. They’re the governing body in Gaza. It’s complicated separating that function from their violent conduct and consequently it’s complicated trying to separate the populace’s support.

This is alt-universe bin Laden logic. Congrats. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

You can tell it's a genocidal forever war because the win condition is incapable of being evaluated.

"But chainsaw, don't you know that the win condition is DESTROY HUMMUS??"

Don't be fooled by that misdirection. You cannot tell, simply by looking at someone, whether they are in Hamas.

(On the other hand, I have a hard time believing little girls clutching dolls and little boys playing soccer are Hamas. But I guess those are just "human shields" right?)

So, how do we know when Hamas has been "destroyed" if we don't even know who is a member?

By the way, have we even "destroyed" ISIS? What about al Qaeda? The Taliban?

If so, when were the V-Days and how was that determined?

If the US couldn't even "destroy" al Qaeda, what hope does a much smaller military that's wholly dependent upon foreign aid have in "destroying" Hamas?

There is no win condition, unless the goal is to ethnically cleanse a tiny strip of land while a campaign of brutal settler violence is being all but officially sanctioned in the west bank.

  • Fuck You 1
  • Rage+1 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, 'stache said:

Certainly not saying everything is great for Jewish people, but the statement was that Jews can’t live safely anywhere and that just isn’t true. I’m Hispanic and look Middle Eastern and get some shit. My friends are gay and had their donut shop vandalized twice for hosting drag shows. I have way more fear for them tbh.

This is pretty much All Lives Matter— but from the Left, so it’s OK. You’re allowed to care about gay people without minimizing anti-semitism. 
 

Anti-semitism is like the philosopher’s stone of bigotry once you leave the Pacific Rim. No matter what asshole you’re bumping up against- Nazis, fundamentalist Christians, Islamic extremists, Opus Dei, Nation of Islam, right-wangers, Slavophiles, conspiracy nuts, tankies and pinkos, John Mearsheimer— you better buckle up because you’re gonna hear some weird shit about the Jews and Israel.  Every. Gotdamn. Time. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

You can tell it's a genocidal forever war because the win condition is incapable of being evaluated.

"But chainsaw, don't you know that the win condition is DESTROY HUMMUS??"

Don't be fooled by that misdirection. You cannot tell, simply by looking at someone, whether they are in Hamas.

(On the other hand, I have a hard time believing little girls clutching dolls and little boys playing soccer are Hamas. But I guess those are just "human shields" right?)

So, how do we know when Hamas has been "destroyed" if we don't even know who is a member?

By the way, have we even "destroyed" ISIS? What about al Qaeda? The Taliban?

If so, when were the V-Days and how was that determined?

If the US couldn't even "destroy" al Qaeda, what hope does a much smaller military that's wholly dependent upon foreign aid have in "destroying" Hamas?

There is no win condition, unless the goal is to ethnically cleanse a tiny strip of land while a campaign of brutal settler violence is being all but officially sanctioned in the west bank.

ISIS no longer controls any territory and after four years of combat is back in hiding and issuing propaganda. AQ is seriously degraded and Americans no longe think much about Islamic terror. There is a level of violence you can apply to these problems. There are still a few unrepentant Nazis around, too. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, 956 Worldwide said:

ISIS no longer controls any territory and after four years of combat is back in hiding and issuing propaganda. AQ is seriously degraded and Americans no longe think much about Islamic terror. There is a level of violence you can apply to these problems. There are still a few unrepentant Nazis around, too. 

Those are different win conditions. I'm asking how you'd know when Hamas has been "destroyed" since that's what Israel claims it is trying to accomplish.

  • Rage+1 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

Those are different win conditions. I'm asking how you'd know when Hamas has been "destroyed" since that's what Israel claims it is trying to accomplish.

https://www.npr.org/2023/11/05/1210734100/israel-says-its-goal-is-to-remove-hamas-from-power-what-comes-next-is-unclear

 

Quote

INSKEEP: It seems to me they have refined the objective slightly. Israel initially said - the Israeli authorities said they must destroy Hamas. And we've heard in our reporting around this region how hard that would be. It is defined by Israel as a terrorist group, but Hamas also has a political ideology with widespread Palestinian support. You can't just kill a few leaders or fighters and think it'll go away. I spoke with an Israeli military strategist who put the goal in a more nuanced way. He said the goal was to depose Hamas, get them out of government in Gaza - not necessarily kill the last fighter, but degrade them to the point where they're incapable of running anything.

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, DixonHur said:

It's a bit more nuanced.

I don't think it should have been created, but I recognize that it was and thus think it has the right to exist.

I believe this about all countries. Territorial boundaries are a figment of animal instinct. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, 'stache said:

You mean Charlottesville? They weren’t exactly mad about the Jews (except Soros or something). I’ve never been able to figure out how their hatred of Black people has anything to do with the Jews. They are literally morons who don’t know shit. If anything it proves that Black people and others are in far more danger in the US. Even when they throw in some stuff about the Jews. It’s more about love of authoritarians (aka Nazis) than hatred of Jews for being Jews.

For what it's worth, I was right there a week before for a Jewish wedding - well, one of the ceremonies associated with it.  My nephew (not Jewish, marrying a Jewish woman) was to read from the Torah as part of a "regular" Saturday service.  We attended and participated (?) in the full service.  At the end it was first announced that there would be a reception for the couple - as part of the normal lunch or whatever they usually had - and THEN they spent 15 minutes talking about precautions that would be taken for the next week.

All I am saying is that they knew what what was coming.  There were clearly outlined plans for services and their timing, security that would be in place, and even what would be done with their copy of the Torah (it was removed to another location).  At the time I thought it was a bit overblown.  

A week later I saw what happened, and all I could think of was how prepared they were.  It may not have been all about the Jews, but torches were carried right in front of that synagogue.  They were prepared for what they expected, and they weren't wrong.

 

All the above aside, I hate what's going on, and any peaceful solution >>> what's happening now.  I just don't know what that looks like.

 

Edited by grazinhorn
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 11/7/2023 at 12:08 PM, Don Johnson said:

Waters has been an anti semite for years.  This is not surprising.

https://apnews.com/article/us-germany-roger-waters-antisemitism-3aa8d1dadf8d633f2c3274a6a8f9ef6f

Nothing in that article supports that assertion. The Nazis killed Roger’s father. Any similarities to Nazi imagery in Roger’s art are representations of the villains in the story. They’re never about glorifying the Nazis and you’d have to be a clueless moron to think otherwise.

Being anti-Zionist is not the same thing as being antisemitic. Criticizing Israel is not the same thing as criticizing the Jews.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

Nothing in that article supports that assertion. The Nazis killed Roger’s father. Any similarities to Nazi imagery in Roger’s art are representations of the villains in the story. They’re never about glorifying the Nazis and you’d have to be a clueless moron to think otherwise.

Being anti-Zionist is not the same thing as being antisemitic. Criticizing Israel is not the same thing as criticizing the Jews.

Except when it is. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, DDD Dad said:

Except when it is. 

“Nothing I ever do is anti-Semitic. Not even my pig with a Star of David painted on it. My dad fought in World War II.” 
 

image.thumb.png.5260d7a98dbe4035228cb7c8cf5f9a0e.png
 

The constant apologetics and downplaying of obvious anti-semitism makes people non-credible when they whine about how being pro—Palestine tars them as as anti-semites. 
 

Ok, so maybe don’t downplay Charlottesville and make excuses for Roger Waters (who has also said that October 7 is fake). Maybe don’t get pissy when your news source is revealed as bullshit Kremlin juche? 

  • Rage+1 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, DixonHur said:

Ah the disingenuousness continues.  You know damn well you were asking a rhetorical question.

 jfc all I did was ask you questions for clarification, why does being asked point blank your opinion on this make you lash out with name calling?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Smax said:

 jfc all I did was ask you questions for clarification, why does being asked point blank your opinion on this make you lash out with name calling?

Ok.  I'll assume I misunderstood you.

What is the direct question?  I will give a direct answer.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, DDD Dad said:

I was listening to him today and his insights largely supported my points I was making about it being “complicated”. 

and its 100% correct, peace doesn't stand a chance as long as hamas is involved. Terrorist dont want peace, just as Arafat and the PLO had a 2 state solution presented to them and turned it down. They dont want peace they want to remove Israel from the map

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

Aaaaaaaaaaand we're full circle back to anti-Zionism and criticism of Israel is antisemitism. Around and around and around we go.

Stop. Making. Excuses. For. Roger. Waters. 
 

Easy as that. Can you do it? He’s a complete shit head who’s wrong about everything and paints Stars of David on pigs and says Ukraine provoked Russia into invading. He says that maybe October 7 didn’t happen. 
 

Try it on. “Roger Waters is a shithead anti-Semite even if he’s pro Palestine.” Walk back and forth in the aisles.  See how the word “even” is more appropriate than “but”? 

  • Hook 'Em 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Stop. Making. Excuses. For. Roger. Waters. 
 

Easy as that. Can you do it? He’s a complete shit head who’s wrong about everything and paints Stars of David on pigs and says Ukraine provoked Russia into invading. He says that maybe October 7 didn’t happen. 
 

Try it on. “Roger Waters is a shithead anti-Semite even if he’s pro Palestine.” Walk back and forth in the aisles.  See how the word “even” is more appropriate than “but”? 

I'm not making excuses for Roger Waters. I'm tired of dipshits like him being used as bludgeons against those of us who are pro-Palestinian liberation in this thread.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

I'm not making excuses for Roger Waters. I'm tired of dipshits like him being used as bludgeons against those of us who are pro-Palestinian liberation in this thread.

Guess what?  I’m pro Palestine liberation too. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

I'm not making excuses for Roger Waters. I'm tired of dipshits like him being used as bludgeons against those of us who are pro-Palestinian liberation in this thread.

Here’s something that’s good to figure out early: If there is a parade of 100 people, and 10 of them are Nazis in the parade with flags and shit, it’s not 10 Nazis and 90 very fine people. It’s just a Nazi parade. Very fine people don’t march with Nazis and they don’t make temporary peace to achieve mutual aims with Nazis. 
 

If there’s a rally and it’s 20 Communists calling for violent revolution out of 100– it’s just a Communist rally. It’s not 80 liberals and a few Commies. It’s just a fucking tankie rally. 
 

Sorry you gotta police your own. @DDD Dadwas very specific in calling out Waters’ as a good example of hiding behind “anti-Israel not anti-Jew” and then doing the most obvious anti-Israel shit imaginable.  

Edited by 956 Worldwide
  • Hook 'Em 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Here’s something that’s good to figure out early: If there is a parade of 100 people, and 10 of them are Nazis in the parade with flags and shit, it’s not 10 Nazis and 90 very fine people. It’s just a Nazi parade. Very fine people don’t march with Nazis and they don’t make temporary peace to achieve mutual aims with Nazis. 
 

If there’s a rally and it’s 20 Communists calling for violent revolution out of 100– it’s just a Communist rally. It’s not 80 liberals and a few Commies. It’s just a fucking tankie rally. 
 

Sorry you gotta police your own. @DDD Dadwas very specific in calling out Waters’ as a good example of hiding behind “anti-Israel not anti-Jew” and then doing the most obvious anti-Israel shit imaginable.  

How would you describe Israel's treatment of Muslims in the occupied territories?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

How would you describe Israel's treatment of Muslims in the occupied territories?

Israel should remove illegal settlements and should extend full civil rights to all Israeli regardless of religion and propose a legitimate path to statehood for Palestinians living in Gaza and the West Bank. A lot of what the Israeli government does is not justifiable. 

  • Hook 'Em 5
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Israel should remove illegal settlements and should extend full civil rights to all Israeli regardless of religion and propose a legitimate path to statehood for Palestinians living in Gaza and the West Bank. A lot of what the Israeli government does is not justifiable. 

This.

But when you get down to it, that won’t get it done. It won’t satisfy the most common pro-Palestinian refrain. It doesn’t get you “from the river to the sea.”

I mean, I am assured there are lots of pro-Palestinian voices who would accept an Israel continuing to exist, safe from further genocidal attack. I just don’t know where those voices actually are yet.
  • Hook 'Em 1
  • Fuck You 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Huckleberry said:

 

Theocratic ethnostates suck. All of them. 

“Bro, we’re going to protest theocratic or ethnically based states, they shouldn’t exist. They’re illegitimate and shouldn’t exist!” 

”Oh, shit, we’re going to protest the existence of Pakistan, explicitly founded as a state for Muslims and where you are not allowed to convert from Islam on pain of death?”

”No, that’s not cool but we aren’t protesting Pakistan.”

”Oh, so we are going to protest the existence of Arab states that expelled Jews and legally privilege Muslims?”

”No bro, we aren’t protesting them even though that’s not cool.”

”Ok, I am totally pissed at the existence of nations created as homes for Poles and Czechs and Slovaks! Fuck them! Bring back the Habsburgs, it’s bullshit to create ethnostates!”

”Hahaha, no. They sound problematic too but we aren’t protesting them.” 

“What religious and/or ethnic state are we protesting as illegitimate?” 
 

image.thumb.jpeg.4f0b6e78b1a71d1b8dfbb7b9a1630586.jpeg

  • Haha 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, DDD Dad said:

 

In contrast, I think it is much easier to distinguish the Israeli government (which, by the way, has members of the Knesset who are Palestinian Israeli citizens) from Jews and Israelis of all faiths and ethnicities.

This part is makes me go wow. I suggest you ponder why you hold this belief and whether it based on your biases and the information sources you consume. 
 

It was about 17 years ago that Hamas was elected. They were elected without a majority. The average age of Gazans is 17 years old. When was Bibi last elected? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Brisketexan said:


This.

But when you get down to it, that won’t get it done. It won’t satisfy the most common pro-Palestinian refrain. It doesn’t get you “from the river to the sea.”

I mean, I am assured there are lots of pro-Palestinian voices who would accept an Israel continuing to exist, safe from further genocidal attack. I just don’t know where those voices actually are yet.

You rattled off a list of popular Western media sources asking me why you aren't seeing this kind of sentiment, at a time when being seen as a pro-Palestinian voice in Western media carries a massive risk of losing your career or worse. We're in a media climate currently where Western media sources routinely flippantly dehumanize Palestinians and push racist, Islamophobic  messaging on a daily basis. We're in a media climate where Piers Motherfucking Pants-shitting Pigfucker Morgan is basically the only "Western media source" (and I say that with, oh, so much irony) that regularly has Palestinian/pro-Palestinian voices on, even if it's just so he can attempt to berate or belittle them while patting himself on the back for how many of them he has platformed. We're in a media climate where Republican lawmakers can shout on live TV that all Palestinians should be exterminated, but does our media apparatus give a shit? Nope.

There are plenty of pro-Palestinian liberation voices within Israel itself, but you're not going to hear from them because they're getting arrested for liking the wrong social media posts or saying the wrong thing in front of the wrong person. I could point to someone like Jon Stewart, who is Jewish, is supportive of Israel's existence, and routinely speaks out in support of Palestinians.....but let's be real here. You're not asking for that kind of pro-Palestinian voice. You come across as wanting Palestinians to parade themselves on Western media outlets and qualify every statement they make about their suffering with repeated condemnations of Hamas and acknowledgment of Israel's right to exist/defend itself/whatever. It's gross. The morality checkpoint system that we've collectively employed to gatekeep all conversation around this subject is gross.

Our collective brains are so full of decades of anti-Arab/Palestinian agitprop that sometimes you can't think of them as anything but animals that can ever do anything but bite the mythical hand that [has never actually] tried to feed them. You can't imagine pro-Palestinian voices (such as my own, mind you) that support the continued existence of Israel. You seem to be unable to wrap your brain around that at all, and it's not even your fault, it's just a thing that Western media has done since before we were born, because Western media ultimately exists to serve the imperialistic purposes of America and other major Western powers, and unconditional support of everything Israel does is fully integrated into that apparatus.

The reality is that Israel exists. There was a fair bit of wrong in how it was created, but it's here, and it's going to continue to exist. Any sort of peace process has to go forward with that as a baseline. Anyone that isn't some kind of radical, fundamentalist psycho understands that.

This is an interesting pro-Palestinian voice to listen to, in my opinion. If you're not familiar, Bassem Youssef is an Egyptian comedian who was a heart surgeon prior to the Arab Spring. His wife is Palestinian, and a large part of her family is currently in Gaza. It's very long, but worth a listen, even if it is on this smarmy shitheel's show.

 

  • Hook 'Em 1
  • Like 1
  • Rage+1 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

59 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

You rattled off a list of popular Western media sources asking me why you aren't seeing this kind of sentiment, at a time when being seen as a pro-Palestinian voice in Western media carries a massive risk of losing your career or worse. We're in a media climate currently where Western media sources routinely flippantly dehumanize Palestinians and push racist, Islamophobic  messaging on a daily basis. We're in a media climate where Piers Motherfucking Pants-shitting Pigfucker Morgan is basically the only "Western media source" (and I say that with, oh, so much irony) that regularly has Palestinian/pro-Palestinian voices on, even if it's just so he can attempt to berate or belittle them while patting himself on the back for how many of them he has platformed. We're in a media climate where Republican lawmakers can shout on live TV that all Palestinians should be exterminated, but does our media apparatus give a shit? Nope.

There are plenty of pro-Palestinian liberation voices within Israel itself, but you're not going to hear from them because they're getting arrested for liking the wrong social media posts or saying the wrong thing in front of the wrong person. I could point to someone like Jon Stewart, who is Jewish, is supportive of Israel's existence, and routinely speaks out in support of Palestinians.....but let's be real here. You're not asking for that kind of pro-Palestinian voice. You come across as wanting Palestinians to parade themselves on Western media outlets and qualify every statement they make about their suffering with repeated condemnations of Hamas and acknowledgment of Israel's right to exist/defend itself/whatever. It's gross. The morality checkpoint system that we've collectively employed to gatekeep all conversation around this subject is gross.

Our collective brains are so full of decades of anti-Arab/Palestinian agitprop that sometimes you can't think of them as anything but animals that can ever do anything but bite the mythical hand that [has never actually] tried to feed them. You can't imagine pro-Palestinian voices (such as my own, mind you) that support the continued existence of Israel. You seem to be unable to wrap your brain around that at all, and it's not even your fault, it's just a thing that Western media has done since before we were born, because Western media ultimately exists to serve the imperialistic purposes of America and other major Western powers, and unconditional support of everything Israel does is fully integrated into that apparatus.

The reality is that Israel exists. There was a fair bit of wrong in how it was created, but it's here, and it's going to continue to exist. Any sort of peace process has to go forward with that as a baseline. Anyone that isn't some kind of radical, fundamentalist psycho understands that.

 

This CSM article references Palestinian voices that, today, are supporting a two state solution along with acknowledgment that Israelis, too, deserve to live in peace. These folks see an opportunity to make progress working toward such a future precisely because of the harm Hamas instigated on 10/7 (justifiably provoked, or not.) They seek mediators from abroad, (and definitely not including the US,) and speak of a carrot of normalized relations between Israel and SA. The vehicle for these changes is the PA.

The problem, as stated in the article, is that it seems pretty unlikely that the Palestinian people will accept the PA as legitimate. 
 

Is this the type of agitprop you mention?

 

https://www.csmonitor.com/World/Middle-East/2023/1108/As-Gaza-war-rages-West-Bank-officials-see-a-path-toward-peace

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

“Nothing I ever do is anti-Semitic. Not even my pig with a Star of David painted on it. My dad fought in World War II.” 
 

image.thumb.png.5260d7a98dbe4035228cb7c8cf5f9a0e.png
 

The constant apologetics and downplaying of obvious anti-semitism makes people non-credible when they whine about how being pro—Palestine tars them as as anti-semites. 
 

Ok, so maybe don’t downplay Charlottesville and make excuses for Roger Waters (who has also said that October 7 is fake). Maybe don’t get pissy when your news source is revealed as bullshit Kremlin juche? 

Is Shell Oil a Jewish corporation? Don’t show us a pic taken out of context. Show us a video. What other symbols get projected on that pig? Are there also crosses and sickles and dollar signs? Those are all symbols, along with the Star of David, that were dropped from airplanes like bombs during Goodbye Blue Sky in Roger’s performance of The Wall. Do you think that collectively those are a message of antisemitism? If you do then you just don’t get it. Or you work for the ADL.

Our addiction to oil, religion (the Abrahamic religions in particular), the military industrial complex, greed and capitalism, they’re why there’s no peace in the Middle East. Jewish, Christian, and Islamic symbols are all fair game, as are dollar signs and corporate logos.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

BREAKING: Iran's president lands in Saudi Arabia for Gaza summit, first such visit in more than a decade
Iranian President Ebrahim Raisi has landed in the Saudi capital Riyadh for a major summit to discuss the conflict in Gaza.

The Iranian President was greeted by Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman, their first encounter since Saudi Arabia and Iran agreed to restore diplomatic relations earlier this year. It also marks the first visit by an Iranian president to the Kingdom in 11 years.
-CNN

Link to comment
Share on other sites



×
×
  • Create New...