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SmokeyBear1861

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22 minutes ago, statsman said:

What do you mean “against the law”? Which law? Whose law?

It's called the law of war.

That includes the fourth geneva convention which prohibits collective punishments.

These laws, including the principle of proportionality (a ratio of 100-1 clearly violates that principle), are binding worldwide.

It's weird that pulling babies out of incubators being a crime is something that needs to be explained. Are those babies Hamas?

14 minutes ago, henrygandorf said:

can you explain why you put savages in quotation marks? 

because I'm quoting someone else.

18 minutes ago, statsman said:

Well, I don’t see how any reasonable person could argue with broseph Stalin

I was posting the BBC clip mainly

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So 2 hot conflicts right now going on. 

ukraine is killing 1k/day and over 350k Russian casualties in ~18 months all dead on their dirt as invaders. Tons of Ukrainian casualties as well, but haven’t seen recent numbers. They are in all out war. 
 

israel is big mad (rightfully so) that 1400 people died in an attack that would be nearly impossible to replicate or pull off again by hamas(terrorists). In return they leveled parts of cities and have killed 10k+ of whoever the fuck because they are “all the same anyway.”

whether Russia is right or wrong they are fighting a real war with real objectives, real casualties, real economic penalties and real sanctions. Ukraine is fighting for their existence and doing an admirable job with our aid with all the same real things. 
 

israel is doing none of those things. They are just talking shit and using everyone’s perceived hatred of the Jewish state to retaliate with an incredible amount of collateral damage on an objective they can’t clarify on success criteria. Hamas are straight up terrorists and their solution is “eradicate them!!” Which is fucking bogus. A real war would have the objective of taking over the area, expelling rebels and making the people of that area feel like they are safe and have opportunities in their homes and community. 
 

the nebulous answer if “but hamas is everywhere!” Is just an excuse to not fight a real war, but cause enough pain and try to find the leaders so that the people lose hope and subjugate themselves to Israeli rule and live as subhumans in their little part of the country. It’s absolutely fucking absurd. 

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3 minutes ago, immamac said:

A real war would have the objective of taking over the area, expelling rebels and making the people of that area feel like they are safe and have opportunities in their homes and community.

Maybe they should have marched into Gaza in aggy band formation and asked the 30K Hamas tunnel rats to pretty please come out from your urban hiding spots?

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Israel has - as most reasonable folks expected - already overplayed its hand. Because this is a Bibi and Likud-led Israel, and this is what they do. In the end, Israel will justifiably lose a great deal of acts if and sympathy.
Will that pave the way for a new leadership regime to come in and make progress towards a lasting peace? Yes and no. I think there will eventually be a new regime that tries it…but they’ll fail. Because I genuinely doubt the Palestinian people and leadership will ever settle for a two-state solution. Oh, I know there are those who say they will. But here’s the thing: I don’t believe them. The chances of humanity ever finding the sweet spot in history where the majority consensus in BOTH Israel and Palestine, at the same time, is “peaceful two-state solution,” are about .000000000000000000001%.
And, even knowing that Bibi and crew were going to go full monstrous overkill….the truth remains that Israel had no winning move in front of it. Because while the loudest of the Palestinian apologists and advocates around here give lip service to the concept of “Israel can defend itself and respond to the Oct 7 attacks,” none of them will say exactly WHAT Israel could have done that they wouldn’t have condemned as Israeli brutality. Shit, if the only thing Israel did was close off its entry points to Gaza to people and vehicles going out of Gaza, they would have condemned that. Israel firing even a single bullet in the direction of Gaza would have been decried as a war crime. Which, approach, ironically, paces the way for war crimes.
Because if you are Israel, and you are going to be condemned and vilified to the same extent whether you kill 1 person in Gaza or 10,000….then WTF is your incentive to hold back?
Failure of advocates for either side to genuinely acknowledge the rights and interests of the other, even if the other side abuses those rights (the Palestinians have a right to desire self-determination and freedom….but they overstep when they slaughter 1,000 innocents to make a statement….and Israel has a right to exist and defend its people….but they overstep when they kill 10,000 and destroy whole city blocks in response)…well, that failure means that we are in an endless cycle of dehumanization, and the death that follows.

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2 hours ago, sheeeit said:

I do not see any chance of Israel stopping short of eradicating Hamas from Gaza.  My hope is that it is done as quickly as possible and with as few casualties as possible.  Then I hope the world pours a lot of money into Gaza to rebuild and establishes a temporary international police force in Gaza to keep a Hamas like group from reforming and allows the Palestinians to actually self govern and live in peace. 

I'm sure if Israel throws enough at it they can crush Hamas so I wont argue your first sentence. But the rest feels like a pipedream as I don't believe for a second they can keep another Hamas from forming. The fact that Israel has been at conflict with its neighbors since the exact moment it was established tells me this shit will go on long after I'm dead. The root cause isn't really one or two policies or actions that Israel implements. The root cause is that Israel exists. The Palestinians want their land back and Israel is going the opposite direction with additional settlements/expansion. 

And then you mix in the regional and global power brokers with their own self-serving motivations and ample arms supply, sprinkle in a healthy dose of sky-daddy fanaticism and you're left with a never-ending massive shitfuck. 

Fazliddin-gaibnazarov GIFs - Get the best GIF on GIPHY

 

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Thought exercise

If the German or Japanese citizens had Instagram and Twitter (or 247 news) do you think any Americans would have cared about the thousands of civilians that died during the bombing of Munich or Hiroshima? 

Follow Up

How many additional US soldiers would have died if we didn’t? Would that be acceptable? 

People look fondly back at the US eradicating the Nazis and Japanese Empire because they couldn’t see the human cost. And still don’t. Americans tend to whitewash shit. 

I am in no way advocating for the killing of civilians. I am trying to juxtapose the current situation to the past. If Israel is committing genocide, didn’t the US commit genocide? if not, what’s the difference?
 

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2 hours ago, sheeeit said:

Why has Egypt kept their border with Gaza closed during the same period?  Why are they not called out by you and others to help with the humanitarian crisis in Gaza due to the blockade?  Gaza is tiny.  More than enough aid could come through Egypt to care for the whole country.  Would you try to equivocate the response if Hamas had attacked Egypt on Oct 7?  Would you or anyone have condemned their response?  Maybe I have missed it but I do not recall any pro palestinian spokesperson or leader or Hamas or anyone that has condemned Egypt over the last decades due to the blockade. 

Just to add to this, why has Hezbollah with their thousands of missiles pointed at Israel said this is not their fight. Where's Egypt and even Iran on outwardly supporting Hamas after the attack. All of Hamas' former allies are MIA. It's really something to watch the far left in the US pick up the fight where Hamas' traditional allies have noped the fuck out.

48 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

but they overstep when they slaughter 1,000 innocents to make a statement….and Israel has a right to exist and defend its people….but they overstep when they kill 10,000 and destroy whole city

I just want to add that the disgusting method of violating women, murdering them, and beheading infants, targeting and murdering party-goers at a kibbutz plays into this, as well as the fact that in the weeks after the attack they fired thousands of missiles from Gaza toward Israel.

Moving on to the @chainsaw's of the world...Hamas' ploy to bring the Palestinian situation back to the front pages has certainly worked but not in the way they hoped. As long as Israel isn't purposely targeting civilians, there's not much they can do wrong in my book as they seek to terminate Hamas. If they want peace and to save the people of Gaza, the way for Hamas to do that is by full and unconditional surrender. You don't start a war and then expect your target to let it pass merely because you've done a great job of hiding yourself behind women and children. Those are the people they profess to care deeply about? If you believe that, I've got a goddamn bridge made of pure gold to sell you.

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1 hour ago, Neonmoon said:

Thought exercise

If the German or Japanese citizens had Instagram and Twitter (or 247 news) do you think any Americans would have cared about the thousands of civilians that died during the bombing of Munich or Hiroshima? 

Follow Up

How many additional US soldiers would have died if we didn’t? Would that be acceptable? 

People look fondly back at the US eradicating the Nazis and Japanese Empire because they couldn’t see the human cost. And still don’t. Americans tend to whitewash shit. 

I am in no way advocating for the killing of civilians. I am trying to juxtapose the current situation to the past. If Israel is committing genocide, didn’t the US commit genocide? if not, what’s the difference?
 

The US, much like Russia (also not clean, but not really "monsters" here outside of weird shit like bucha) had actual military objectives and a tangible end/measure of success/failure. 

What does success look like for Israel? What does it look like for Hamas? 

^^This is the problem, there is no such thing as success. There is no end to the operation, there is no meaningful change to come. 

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2 hours ago, immamac said:

So 2 hot conflicts right now going on. 

ukraine is killing 1k/day and over 350k Russian casualties in ~18 months all dead on their dirt as invaders. Tons of Ukrainian casualties as well, but haven’t seen recent numbers. They are in all out war. 
 

israel is big mad (rightfully so) that 1400 people died in an attack that would be nearly impossible to replicate or pull off again by hamas(terrorists). In return they leveled parts of cities and have killed 10k+ of whoever the fuck because they are “all the same anyway.”

whether Russia is right or wrong they are fighting a real war with real objectives, real casualties, real economic penalties and real sanctions. Ukraine is fighting for their existence and doing an admirable job with our aid with all the same real things. 
 

israel is doing none of those things. They are just talking shit and using everyone’s perceived hatred of the Jewish state to retaliate with an incredible amount of collateral damage on an objective they can’t clarify on success criteria. Hamas are straight up terrorists and their solution is “eradicate them!!” Which is fucking bogus. A real war would have the objective of taking over the area, expelling rebels and making the people of that area feel like they are safe and have opportunities in their homes and community. 
 

the nebulous answer if “but hamas is everywhere!” Is just an excuse to not fight a real war, but cause enough pain and try to find the leaders so that the people lose hope and subjugate themselves to Israeli rule and live as subhumans in their little part of the country. It’s absolutely fucking absurd. 

The issue here is that if we are drawing analogies, Hamas is more like the Taliban than they are Al-Qaeda. They are the government in Gaza. They control territory, resources, command security forces, receive funds from abroad, run social programs, and administer the local government. Like the Taliban, they offer safe haven to actual terrorist group, like IJP. But they are a government that has embraced terror as an offensive strategy and asymmetric insurgent tactics as a a defensive one. 
 

The differences between them and the Taliban are mainly:

1. They control an urban conglomeration and so instead of melting into hills and mountains they melt into hospitals and apartments to hide. 
 

2. Their adversary does not have the luxury of packing up their shit and flying across the ocean with a promise to come back with B-2s and drones if they get froggy. For Israel, they are the Taliban next door. 
 

Looking beyond patriotic statements for tv consumption, the IDF has articulated clear military and political goals: to degrade Hamas to the point that they are no longer capable of governing Gaza or organizing complex terrorist attacks across the border. Those are legitimate and defined aims even if (see point 1) you can’t accomplish them without a lot of destruction. 

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Agree, and both sides have a fucked end game. Keep in mind Qatar is fine with Hamas leadership living there, but unlike what Libya did for the PLO they are not going to let 5 thousand Hamas fighters come and live in Doha. This is a major reason Egypt will not open the borders. 

But for every building destroyed, family ripped apart, Israel is creating the next generation. 

Wars of liberation, or Guerrilla Wars, end when the guerrillas win. They have no incentive to stop fighting, just modify tactics. 

 

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5 hours ago, TexArcher said:

Oh, we agree on that.  What Israel has done to Gaza for almost 20 years is horrible.  And, it's made Hamas's recruiting job a lot easier.  I'm no fan of Israel's leadership.

But, what are they supposed to do when 1400 of their civilians are killed in the most heinous ways possible?

What level of response would people accept?

It's just a clusterfuck with two sets of bloodthirsty, hateful leaders giving each other reasons to keep killing each other.  Both sides have very legitimate claims to vendetta right now.  So, it's going to continue to escalate.  Yay, world.

Rocket_Attacks_fired_at_Israel_from_the_

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5 hours ago, TexArcher said:

Of course it would be a war crime.  I didn't say that they should have done it, but they definitely have the capability, and they didn't.  I'm also not suggesting that Israel be given a bunch of medals for not doing it.  The only point was that Israel *has shown restraint*.  They have.  Period.  If you want to argue that they should show more restraint, go ahead.  So should the Palestinians who threw the first horrible punch.

Again, I'm not taking sides here.  I'm just calling out the "Israel is the bad guy" talking points for the bullshit that they are.  There are two bad guys and zero good guys in this thing.  As if the peaceful Gazans were just hanging out minding their own business when Israel attacked them and started killing innocent civilians?  No, that is exactly the opposite of what happened here.

And, I didn't compare this to Nazi Germany.  That was someone else.

You have absolutely no clue what you are talking about. 

You're just parroting a party line of total nonsense. 

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1 hour ago, Neonmoon said:

Thought exercise

If the German or Japanese citizens had Instagram and Twitter (or 247 news) do you think any Americans would have cared about the thousands of civilians that died during the bombing of Munich or Hiroshima? 

Follow Up

How many additional US soldiers would have died if we didn’t? Would that be acceptable? 

People look fondly back at the US eradicating the Nazis and Japanese Empire because they couldn’t see the human cost. And still don’t. Americans tend to whitewash shit. 

I am in no way advocating for the killing of civilians. I am trying to juxtapose the current situation to the past. If Israel is committing genocide, didn’t the US commit genocide? if not, what’s the difference?
 

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/09/magazine/we-hated-what-we-were-doing-veterans-recall-firebombing-japan.html

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2013/12/but-wait-theres-more-yasukuni-arlington-doolittle-and-lemay/282723/

Quote

I don't fault Truman for dropping the nuclear bomb. The U.S.—Japanese War was one of the most brutal wars in all of human history ? kamikaze pilots, suicide, unbelievable. What one can criticize is that the human race prior to that time ? and today ? has not really grappled with what are, I'll call it, "the rules of war." Was there a rule then that said you shouldn't bomb, shouldn't kill, shouldn't burn to death 100,000 civilians in one night?

[General Curtis] LeMay said, "If we'd lost the war, we'd all have been prosecuted as war criminals." And I think he's right. He, and I'd say I, were behaving as war criminals. LeMay recognized that what he was doing would be thought immoral if his side had lost. But what makes it immoral if you lose and not immoral if you win?

Robert McNamara, as told to Errol Morris in The Fog of War.

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4 minutes ago, Bullneck said:

Rocket_Attacks_fired_at_Israel_from_the_

One of the things that never gets mentioned is that Hamas is still firing rockets at Tel Aviv, that Hamas has not asked for a ceasefire, and that Hamas has not proposed anything they’d be willing to do in exchange for one. One thing that’s remarkable is that they don’t want to exchange hostages for peace, they want to exchange hostages for prisoners. They care far more about fellow thugs than their own people. 
 

That’s why is so fucking disingenuous of Palestine supporters to call for a “ceasefire,” a ceasefire applies to both sides. And the Palestinian side doesn’t want one.  And even more infuriating when they get mad at U.S. calls for a humanitarian pause, because that’s exactly what it is when Israel takes a break— one side takes a pause for humanitarian purposes and the other side keeps shooting. 
 

You can’t have a ceasefire on one side.  But most Palestinian supporters are comically unable to say what they mean and they known “ceasefire” sounds nice while few Western publics would be on board with a “unilateral Israeli retreat.” 

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21 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

But for every building destroyed, family ripped apart, Israel is creating the next generation. 

All due respect cause I like you but this take is bullshit. Israel has been attacked by the palestinians for decades -- including at something as innocent as the goddamned Munich Olympics -- yet somehow nobody makes this type of justification for Israel.

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10 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

One of the things that never gets mentioned is that Hamas is still firing rockets at Tel Aviv, that Hamas has not asked for a ceasefire, and that Hamas has not proposed anything they’d be willing to do in exchange for one. One thing that’s remarkable is that they don’t want to exchange hostages for peace, they want to exchange hostages for prisoners. They care far more about fellow thugs than their own people. 
 

That’s why is so fucking disingenuous of Palestine supporters to call for a “ceasefire,” a ceasefire applies to both sides. And the Palestinian side doesn’t want one.  And even more infuriating when they get mad at U.S. calls for a humanitarian pause, because that’s exactly what it is when Israel takes a break— one side takes a pause for humanitarian purposes and the other side keeps shooting. 
 

You can’t have a ceasefire on one side.  But most Palestinian supporters are comically unable to say what they mean and they known “ceasefire” sounds nice while few Western publics would be on board with a “unilateral Israeli retreat.” 

 

Just to be clear, I'm not taking Hamas's side, but you're wrong in stating they haven't asked for a ceasefire.

https://www.axios.com/2023/11/15/israel-hamas-gaza-hostage-talks-focus-length-proposed-ceasefire

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4 minutes ago, Chopper said:

All due respect cause I like you but this take is bullshit. Israel has been attacked by the palestinians for decades -- including at something as innocent as the goddamned Munich Olympics -- yet somehow nobody makes this type of justification for Israel.

yes they have, and not only Palestinians. So go get the Hamas leadership in Qatar. A solid book is Rise and Kill first. It talks about how Israel would go after leaders, from the legal aspects to calling in fire. 

And no matter how long the conflict goes on, more foot soldiers, suicide bombers, tunnel diggers, show up for what they see as their duty. Israelis do not forget either. 

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Just to be clear, I'm not taking Hamas's side, but you're wrong in stating they haven't asked for a ceasefire.
https://www.axios.com/2023/11/15/israel-hamas-gaza-hostage-talks-focus-length-proposed-ceasefire

Bottom line: Hamas can save thousands of Gazan lives right now. All they have to do is release hostages. Hostages. Not combatants. Hostages.
Yet, they won’t.
And Israel is the only party blamed for their not being a ceasefire in place.
Again, not excusing Israel’s overkill, but for fuck’s sake, when will Palestinians and their supporters put ANY fucking responsibility on Hamas, which has the ability to put a stop to the fighting as we speak?
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3 minutes ago, bolverk said:

 

Just to be clear, I'm not taking Hamas's side, but you're wrong in stating they haven't asked for a ceasefire.

https://www.axios.com/2023/11/15/israel-hamas-gaza-hostage-talks-focus-length-proposed-ceasefire

Fair enough, I had not seen that report from Axios.  I think, though, that the idea proposed few-day ceasefire (max 5) proposed by Hamas is a far cry from what nearly every protester is calling for, which amounts to an open-ended commitment. And the Hamas proposals illuminate that they don’t want a window for real peace talks, they want a break to retrench. 

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11 minutes ago, bolverk said:

 

Just to be clear, I'm not taking Hamas's side, but you're wrong in stating they haven't asked for a ceasefire.

https://www.axios.com/2023/11/15/israel-hamas-gaza-hostage-talks-focus-length-proposed-ceasefire

NM.  I found it.

Quote

The negotiations between Israel and Hamas over a possible deal to release hostages held in Gaza are focused on how many days Israel would allow for a ceasefire in exchange for Hamas releasing some hostages, three sources with knowledge of the talks tell Axios.

Why it matters: The indirect negotiations — conducted through a mediation effort led by Qatar — represent the most significant diplomatic effort now taking place that could lead to a pause in the fighting that began when Hamas attacked Israel on Oct. 7.

  • Israel — which after weeks of bombing Gaza now has troops on the ground there looking for Hamas leaders and militants — has said it will agree to a temporary cease fire only if a significant number of the 240 hostages held by Hamas and other factions are freed.

Driving the news: During the talks that have taken place since Israel's ground operation in Gaza began two weeks ago, Qatari mediators have given the Israeli government two proposals from Hamas, according to two of the sources.

  • The first proposal called for the release of 18 hostages — including women and children — in return for a three-day ceasefire, the two sources said.
  • The sources added that Israel's war Cabinet rejected that proposal, saying it would agree to a pause in the fighting of no more than 24 hours in exchange for the release of so few of the hostages.

The second proposal discussed in recent days would include a gradual release of a larger number of hostages over several days, during which there would be a pause in the fighting. The sources said Hamas asked for five days; Israel doesn't want any more than three.

  • Under this plan, on the first day of the ceasefire Hamas would release 50 women and children it's holding in Gaza and can release immediately, without coordinating with other factions who are holding some of hostages.
  • After that, Hamas would release another 10 hostages every day for the remainder of the ceasefire. If the terror group didn't, the ceasefire would expire.

The sources said that as part of this proposal, Israel would release, in several groups, Palestinian women, teenagers and elderly people being held in Israeli prisons.

  • Israel also would allow large amounts of fuel into Gaza under UN supervision, for use by hospitals and bakeries, and would commit to allowing 200 aid trucks into Gaza each day. The sources said this would require cooperation from nearby Egypt.

Behind the scenes: The negotiations have been hindered by difficulties in communicating with Hamas leaders in Gaza, one of the sources said.

 
  • Another hurdle: Because Hamas doesn't have all the civilian hostages in Gaza under its control, it needs to reach understandings with the Palestinian Islamic Jihad and others when negotiating potential hostage releases.
  • Several dozen hostages are held by the Palestinian Islamic Jihad and a small number are held by a local gang in southern Gaza called "Al-Shabiha."

State of play: Israeli and U.S. officials say there are unresolved issues in the negotiations, and it's unclear whether a deal can be reached in the next few days.

  • A source briefed on the issue said the raid on Gaza's al-Shifa hospital by the Israeli Defense Forces angered Hamas and could complicate the talks in the short term.
  • Israeli Minister of Defense Yoav Gallant said Wednesday the ground operation in Gaza — where the Hamas-controlled health ministry has reported more than 11,000 deaths from Israel's counterattack — is increasing pressure on Hamas to negotiate over the hostages.
  • "Hamas only understands force," Gallant said. "They are now willing to pay for even a short pause."

What to watch: President Biden's top Middle East adviser, Brett McGurk, and the State Department's senior Middle East diplomat, Barbara Leaf, are expected to visit Doha on Sunday to meet with Qatari's prime minister and discuss the hostage issue.

 

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4 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Fair enough, I had not seen that report from Axios.  I think, though, that the idea proposed few-day ceasefire (max 5) proposed by Hamas is a far cry from what nearly every protester is calling for, which amounts to an open-ended commitment. And the Hamas proposals illuminate that they don’t want a window for real peace talks, they want a break to retrench. 

Sounds more like a window for what Hamas wants to call "prisioner exchange" anyway. At least one of the people Hamas demands be released is a violent murderer.

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2 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

Ceasefires are not peace deal. They are pauses. Sometimes short (like these) sometimes long, like with North Korea. 

And usually they are asked for when both sides are at their end, one needs it to regroup, or there wait for external involvement. 

The time asked for matters. Calling for a few days means that you want to regroup. Longer windows means you want a window for potential diplomacy. 

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Just now, 956 Worldwide said:

The time asked for matters. Calling for a few days means that you want to regroup. Longer windows means you want a window for potential diplomacy. 

And I don't either sides wants international eyes on what they are doing. Also, who would enforce such pause? 

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1 minute ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Fair enough, I had not seen that report from Axios.  I think, though, that the idea proposed few-day ceasefire (max 5) proposed by Hamas is a far cry from what nearly every protester is calling for, which amounts to an open-ended commitment. And the Hamas proposals illuminate that they don’t want a window for real peace talks, they want a break to retrench. 

Oh, I'm absolutely sure Hamas would use that window to shore up their defenses. There's no question about that at all. Still, that second proposal would at least get 90-100 hostages out in five days if Hamas followed through. Those are innocent Israeli lives saved, and more innocent Palestinians could use those five days to get out of harm's way too.

But, yeah, I understand why Israel wouldn't trust them, and I'm under no illusion that fighting would start right back up. But the fighting is going to continue regardless. This war that Hamas started isn't going to end until Israel is satisfied they've met their goal.

 

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Just now, bolverk said:

more innocent Palestinians could use those five days to get out of harm's way too.

 

 

I would love to see it, but where would these Palestinians go? Borders with Egypt are still closed. Why would Hamas fighters not just move south with the IDP's and reset? 

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15 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

A solid book is Rise and Kill first. It talks about how Israel would go after leaders, from the legal aspects to calling in fire.

This happened in my lifetime https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mossad_assassinations_following_the_Munich_massacre and it didn't go nearly as well as hoped. It took the US what seemed like forever to find OBL and we dedicated billions more in resources than Israel ever would be able to. Revenge is both difficult and fleeting.

 

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1 minute ago, Chopper said:

This happened in my lifetime https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mossad_assassinations_following_the_Munich_massacre and it didn't go nearly as well as hoped. It took the US what seemed like forever to find OBL and we dedicated billions more in resources than Israel ever would be able to. Revenge is both difficult and fleeting.

 

Yeah, that is why it is a good book. It goes back to the beginning and follows through. And I know the Sword of Gideon operation. 

OBL was in hiding, and probably being protected some powerful people. And we went in. What would it be like if Mossad killed Hamas leaders around the Gulf States? 

4 minutes ago, bolverk said:

I don't have any good answers.

Nah man, this is a good answer. It is honest, not emotional, and hopefully you thought about it over a nice scotch. 

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23 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

Ceasefires are not peace deal. They are pauses. Sometimes short (like these) sometimes long, like with North Korea. 

And usually they are asked for when both sides are at their end, one needs it to regroup, or there wait for external involvement. 

Hamas could surrender and there would be a permanent cease fire.

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8 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

What would it be like if Mossad killed Hamas leaders around the Gulf States? 

What many people have already forgotten is there was a peace treaty on the table with active negotiations between SA and Israel as recently as early October. It's one reason Hamas decided to stir the hornet's nest when they did.

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3 minutes ago, Chopper said:

What many people have already forgotten is there was a peace treaty on the table with active negotiations between SA and Israel as recently as early October. It's one reason Hamas Iran using their proxy Hamas decided to stir the hornet's nest when they did.

FIFY. 

And yeah, it was making traction. One of the deals that also got pulled was a desalinization project in Israel to provide water for Jordan. 

And it is interesting the only external group to much are the Houtis. They cannot really do much, Hezbollah could and has stayed quiet for the most part. 

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5 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

Bro if you want Israel to slaughter every Palestinian, more power to you. I'm just not gonna engage with the argument.

The enemy has largely been softened and it's now largely door to door so you can chill. Not sure why you or anyone thinks it's Israel's fault for the way Hamas hides beneath and behind the women and children they claim to be representing.

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Just now, Chopper said:

The enemy has largely been softened and it's now largely door to door so you can chill. Not sure why you or anyone thinks it's Israel's fault for the way Hamas hides beneath and behind the women and children they claim to be representing.

Says who? And who said Hamas' tactics are Israel's fault besides the voices in your head?

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1 hour ago, 956 Worldwide said:

The issue here is that if we are drawing analogies, Hamas is more like the Taliban than they are Al-Qaeda. They are the government in Gaza. They control territory, resources, command security forces, receive funds from abroad, run social programs, and administer the local government. Like the Taliban, they offer safe haven to actual terrorist group, like IJP. But they are a government that has embraced terror as an offensive strategy and asymmetric insurgent tactics as a a defensive one. 
 

The differences between them and the Taliban are mainly:

1. They control an urban conglomeration and so instead of melting into hills and mountains they melt into hospitals and apartments to hide. 
 

2. Their adversary does not have the luxury of packing up their shit and flying across the ocean with a promise to come back with B-2s and drones if they get froggy. For Israel, they are the Taliban next door. 
 

Looking beyond patriotic statements for tv consumption, the IDF has articulated clear military and political goals: to degrade Hamas to the point that they are no longer capable of governing Gaza or organizing complex terrorist attacks across the border. Those are legitimate and defined aims even if (see point 1) you can’t accomplish them without a lot of destruction. 

You can say all the things you want. I’ve seen enough to know Israel will never treat the people that live in Palestine as equals or true citizens of the country. It’s patently fucking absurd to claim otherwise at this point. 
 

show me an Israel that wants to fight for equal representation and rights and quality of life for its citizens in Gaza and Palestine and I’ll be open to a conversation.

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Gaza faces widespread hunger as food systems collapse, warns WFP

GAZA — With only ten percent of necessary food supplies entering Gaza since the beginning of the conflict, the Strip now faces a massive food gap and widespread hunger as nearly the entire population is in desperate need of food assistance, the UN World Food Programme (WFP) warned today.

“Supplies of food and water are practically non-existent in Gaza and only a fraction of what is needed is arriving through the borders. With winter fast approaching, unsafe and overcrowded shelters, and the lack of clean water, civilians are facing the immediate possibility of starvation," said WFP Executive Director Cindy McCain. "There is no way to meet current hunger needs with one operational border crossing. The only hope is opening another, safe passage for humanitarian access to bring life-saving food into Gaza."

https://www.wfp.org/news/gaza-faces-widespread-hunger-food-systems-collapse-warns-wfp

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4 minutes ago, immamac said:

You can say all the things you want. I’ve seen enough to know Israel will never treat the people that live in Palestine as equals or true citizens of the country. It’s patently fucking absurd to claim otherwise at this point. 
 

show me an Israel that wants to fight for equal representation and rights and quality of life for its citizens in Gaza and Palestine and I’ll be open to a conversation.

There is an active movement for just that. And concerning Arabs in Israel, there are quite a few. 

According to Israel's Central Bureau of Statistics, the Arab-Israeli population in 2023 was 2.1 million representing 21 percent of the country's population

Not saying it is a fair and equal society, but it is not South Africa during apartheid. What's going on in the West Bank is different for sure. And fuck the illegal settlements. 

 

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11 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

Who says Hamas' tactics are Israel's fault

Say what now?

Just curious since you took such offense to my previous post where you opted to voice your opinion in such a passive agressive manner. If you could choose would you prefer to die ten thousand deaths by bullets/missiles, or be raped to death by a gang bang (just once)?

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7 minutes ago, immamac said:

You can say all the things you want. I’ve seen enough to know Israel will never treat the people that live in Palestine as equals or true citizens of the country. It’s patently fucking absurd to claim otherwise at this point. 
 

show me an Israel that wants to fight for equal representation and rights and quality of life for its citizens in Gaza and Palestine and I’ll be open to a conversation.

None of them want to be in one country with the other nation, although you could probably muster the will for two with a delicate dance.  This is not at all surprising. 

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31 minutes ago, Chopper said:

Say what now?

Just curious since you took such offense to my previous post where you opted to voice your opinion in such a passive agressive manner. If you could choose would you prefer to die ten thousand deaths by bullets/missiles, or be raped to death by a gang bang (just once)?

What in the literal fuck are you even talking about?

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2 hours ago, immamac said:

You can say all the things you want. I’ve seen enough to know Israel will never treat the people that live in Palestine as equals or true citizens of the country. It’s patently fucking absurd to claim otherwise at this point. 
 

show me an Israel that wants to fight for equal representation and rights and quality of life for its citizens in Gaza and Palestine and I’ll be open to a conversation.

Are Palestinians in Gaza and the WB citizens of Israel? I thought Israel did not recognize them as citizens, nor did the Gazans and WB residents consider themselves Israelis?

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4 hours ago, Bullneck said:

source briefed on the issue said the raid on Gaza's al-Shifa hospital by the Israeli Defense Forces angered Hamas and could complicate the talks in the short term.

Wasn’t that the place that just a week ago was hosting a rally with an oct 7 greatest hits projected on the side of the building?  Was that proven to be fake? I could have sworn that was on several newscasts and now I can’t find it. 

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