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1 hour ago, Brisketexan said:

A clear and simple statement to the effect of "Israel has a right to defend itself from these horrific attacks and the continuing threat from Hamas as an armed threat.  Israel should exercise that right with necessary force, tempered with the restraint necessary to protect all civilians in Gaza.  Its response should be targeted and methodical, waged against Hamas operatives only, while minimizing the risk/harm to civilians.  That may take time and patience, but the requirement that civilians not be unduly harmed requires that patience.  We will support Israel in such effort.  We will not support Israel waging war against civilian populations"

I appreciate the thought and tone of your response. However, I think your sense that a great opportunity was missed because the six line "simple statement" was not uttered at the start is errant in the extreme.

First, every value stated is obvious to any modern nation. Russia is even aware of it, but they chose to go against the assumptions in their brutal attack of Ukraine that has similar aims as those possessed by Israel. Does a nation like Israel, populated by educated and clearly civilized people, really need to be reminded that they should "minimize risk and actual harm to civilians?" Of course, they have the right to defend themselves. Every nation does.

Second, the part about not supporting Israel should they cross the boundaries laid out in the warning, the second they crossed that boundary with the air campaign, voices, including mine, objected to the US attachment to the developing outrage. Those voices were raised because of the violation of the rules set down in the simple statement. Everyone knows those rules.

Lastly, that's all moot at this time. The US is on the wrong side of this wholesale destruction of another de facto country. Israel is guilty of war crimes, crimes against humanity, and empire building. We're sending them the tools to finish off a people.

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Posted (edited)
20 hours ago, Captainant said:

Evangelical fundamentalism is a hell of a drug. Much of what's motivating the support for Israel is that its existence is a condition for Jesus to return

Certainly a factor. If only the influence was limited to evangelical fundamentalists. Their particular notions, that Jesus needs a well-lit landing strip in Jerusalem, that the modern nation-state of Israel is the biblical nation of Israel, and that war and conflict in the Middle East is God-ordained are toxic. But beyond that, you also see the bleed over into non-religious and the residuals in the formerly religious as well. Some of the core assumptions and aspects of their end times worldview lingers long after Sunday School is passed. End result is that the country of Israel is afforded a unique and special dispensation. Enough so that even when certain people see with their own eyes a US-funded ethnic cleansing exercise, it is hard for some of them to find a clear voice.   

Edited by Anastasis
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27 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Certainly a factor. If only the influence was limited to evangelical fundamentalists. Their particular notions, that Jesus needs a well-lit landing strip in Jerusalem, that the modern nation-state of Israel is the biblical nation of Israel, and that war and conflict in the Middle East is God-ordained are toxic. But beyond that, you also see the bleed over into non-religious and the residuals in the formerly religious as well. Some of the core assumptions and aspects of their end times worldview lingers long after Sunday School is passed. End result is that the country of Israel is afforded a unique and special dispensation. Enough so that even when certain people see with their own eyes a US-funded ethnic cleansing exercise, it is hard for some of them to find a clear voice.   

Also, the Holocaust.

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Important report from a UN team specially investigating sexual violence claims.

https://news.un.org/en/sites/news.un.org.en/files/atoms/files/Mission_report_of_SRSG_SVC_to_Israel-oWB_29Jan_14_feb_2024.pdf

image.thumb.jpeg.35657e11ac78e19c20849b8380bd3c08.jpeg

Toplines: Ressonable evidence of mass rapes and gang rapes across three sites although it is impossible to prove what happened to many of the women who were bound, undressed, and then killed before being burned. Hostages were, and most likely continue to be, subject to rape and torture. Many corpses were booby trapped making investigation impossible. The team believes that undressed and bound corpses is strong circumstantial evidence of sexual violence. 
 

On the Israel side, there is reason to believe prisoners are being subject to invasive searches, including strip searches, beatings, unwanted touches during searches, having their hijabs removed, and threats of sexual assault in the West Bank. The team received no allegations of rape by IDF or Israeli authorities during their investigation although the team intimates that Palestinians do not fully report for cultural reasons. 

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Posted (edited)
23 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

I know that you take the fact that I am not 100% on board with your "Free Palestine, they are the good guys!" take means that I am inherently "Western media swallowed" (nevermind that I cited multiple times to Al Jazeera coverage, which I have watched and read for years, as just one example)....I've been pretty clear that Israel's hands "are and remain super unclean."  I mean, I literally said that exact thing mere days after the attacks.  Here's just a few of my snipped replies by date -- please point out for me the theme of how I am materially weighted towards Israel?  I mean, other than the fact that in the present context...Hamas was the aggressor, and Israel was the attacked entity.  I mean, re: October 7....yeah....I tilt Israel's way in terms of that event, and there being a justification for response (not the one that followed, but a response nonetheless).

I still see two sides in the conflict that are presently operating under the umbrella of their most bellicose elements. On Oct. 7th, Hamas's actions had the greatest unclean hands.  Since then, Israel's actions have had the greatest unclean hands.

I still see no way out.  I see two fires burning with incredible intensity.  There is no putting them out.  And yes, fighting about who is more justified in wanting to continue to exist, weighed against who has committed how many awful acts against the other, will never ever yield a positive solution.

Either the two sides fight to final extinction, or they accept a pragmatic solution that has an eye towards future peaceful existence instead of an eye backwards towards past wrong/grievance.  Those are the choices.  And the choice has been made.  Death and extinction it is.  Everyone loses.

There are three parties directly involved: (1) Israel, a country with a government recognized by nearly every UN country across the planet, and with the support of pretty much every western power; (2) Hamas, a terrorist organization, whose claim to governmental legitimacy is not recognized by nearly every UN country and every western power; (3) Civilian residents of Gaza who are being exterminated as part of retaliation against Hamas, which is defined as the war crime of collective punishment.

Everyone here has said that Oct. 7 was a heinous attack and Hamas should be punished and destroyed to the extent possible. Those pushing back are saying that the third parties, the civilians of Gaza, who have zero power to do anything other than try to dodge bombs and not starve to death, don't deserve what is happening to them, and that the west should do more to address their plight. Many here and everywhere else are saying it is justified because Hamas is using them as human shields, but doesn't that just underscore that they are not a legitimate government and are just as much the enemy of Gaza civilians?

You keep talking about both sides wanting to "exterminate" the other. My first response to this is that, while they are wrong to think this way, the civilians of Gaza are likely to respond to a poll that Israel should leave the region because their lived experience is that Israel has oppressed them, but at the end of the day, they have zero power, so there is no real possibility of Israel being exterminated by Palestinians. Conversely, Gaza is in peril of being exterminated, they are already half way there having destroyed so much civilian infrastructure.

Because of the disparity in power, Israel has to be the ones to agree to a two-state or whatever other solution that might be proposed with the help of the UN. Hamas doesn't need to agree, because, as I keep saying like a broken record, they are terrorists, not a government. You pushed back on that earlier, but the UN doesn't recognize Hamas as a government, so they are not a government for this purpose. 

Finally, I don't think it's unreasonable for Israel to just accept that terrorism is a thing, and the focus should be on stopping it to the extent possible through intelligence, etc. Here in the US we face terrorism every other week, most prominently mass shootings, and yet we just seem to accept that as part of life in the US. We also face the threat of middle east and other terrorists and it's not reasonable to think we can stop it entirely (hence why most today feel the "war on terror" was a dumb concept). 

There's so much more in my head, but I will never agree with you that Palestinians pose any real threat of "exterminating" Israel, but the reverse is true, and 2 million civilians in Gaza don't deserve what is happening to them, which is about as close to genocide as the modern world has seen in some time.

Edited by 'stache
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1 minute ago, 'stache said:

There are three parties directly involved: (1) Israel, a country with a government recognized by nearly every UN country across the planet, and with the support of pretty much every western power; (2) Hamas, a terrorist organization, whose claim to governmental legitimacy is not recognized by nearly every UN country and every western power; (3) Civilian residents of Gaza who are being exterminated as part of retaliation against Hamas, which is defined as the war crime of collective punishment.

Everyone here has said that Oct. 7 was a heinous attack and Hamas should be punished and destroyed to the extent possible. Those pushing back are saying that the third parties, the civilians of Gaza, who have zero power to do anything other than try to dodge bombs and not starve to death, don't deserve what is happening to them, and that the west should do more to address their plight. Many here and everywhere else are saying it is justified because Hamas is using them as human shields, but doesn't that just underscore that they are not a legitimate government and are just as much the enemy of Gaza civilians?

You keep talking about both sides wanting to "exterminate" the other. My first response to this is that, while they are wrong to think this way, the civilians of Gaza are likely to respond to a poll that Israel should leave the region because their lived experience is that Israel has oppressed them, but at the end of the day, they have zero power, so there is no real possibility of Israel being exterminated by Palestinians. Conversely, Gaza is in peril of being exterminated, they are already half way there having destroyed so much civilian infrastructure.

Because of the disparity in power, Israel has to be the ones to agree to a two-state or whatever other solution that might be proposed with the help of the UN. Hamas doesn't need to agree, because, as I keep saying like a broken record, they are terrorists, not a government. You pushed back on that earlier, but the UN doesn't recognize Hamas as a government, so they are not a government for this purpose. 

Finally, I don't think it's unreasonable for Israel to just accept that terrorism is a thing, and the focus should be on stopping it to the extent possible through intelligence, etc. Here in the US we face terrorism every other week, most prominently mass shootings, and yet we just seem to accept that as part of life in the US. We also face the threat of middle east and other terrorists and it's not reasonable to think we can stop it entirely (hence why most today feel the "war on terror" was a dumb concept). 

There's so much more in my head, but I will never agree with you that Palestinians pose any real threat of "exterminating" Israel, but the reverse is true, and 2 million civilians in Gaza don't deserve what is happening to them, which is about as close to genocide as the modern world has seen in some time.

Appreciate the post, and agree with most/much of it, including the fact that it's almost entirely in Israel's hands as to agreeing to a two-state or other solution, due to the power imbalance (and certainly agreeing that the civilian population of Gaza does not deserve the hell being visited upon them, and that the west should do more to address their plight).  But as to any "solution," there is a fork in the road that comes after such action that matters.  What comes after? -- if it is a full Palestinian state, then it has a much higher likelihood of being able to wage war against Israel (in such scenario, likely with partner states -- which we've seen before).  If it is less than a full state, then it's only a partial solution to the plight of the Palestinian people, and will necessarily include a level of dissatisfaction that will lead to violence. 

The most just outcome would be 1) a Palestinian state, with sovereignty and self-determination, 2) that is not at war with Israel.  My pragmatic eye sees zero chance for that.  First, because the current Israeli regime (and perhaps all possible Israeli regimes) will never allow it.  And second, because even if allowed, it's near-certain that the new state will be at war with Israel in short order.

The challenge/problem that comes with accepting an outcome that allows for political violence with, yes, genocidal intent, is that today's justification of "the power imbalance is so great that side X is no real threat to execute on that plan" is that power balances can and do change.  Sometimes, surprisingly quickly. 

TLDR; I think there are multiple "right things to do" in the levant.  I just have zero faith in any player doing a single one of them.  And thus, here we are and here we shall remain.

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30 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Important report from a UN team specially investigating sexual violence claims.

https://news.un.org/en/sites/news.un.org.en/files/atoms/files/Mission_report_of_SRSG_SVC_to_Israel-oWB_29Jan_14_feb_2024.pdf

image.thumb.jpeg.35657e11ac78e19c20849b8380bd3c08.jpeg

Toplines: Ressonable evidence of mass rapes and gang rapes across three sites although it is impossible to prove what happened to many of the women who were bound, undressed, and then killed before being burned. Hostages were, and most likely continue to be, subject to rape and torture. Many corpses were booby trapped making investigation impossible. The team believes that undressed and bound corpses is strong circumstantial evidence of sexual violence. 
 

On the Israel side, there is reason to believe prisoners are being subject to invasive searches, including strip searches, beatings, unwanted touches during searches, having their hijabs removed, and threats of sexual assault in the West Bank. The team received no allegations of rape by IDF or Israeli authorities during their investigation although the team intimates that Palestinians do not fully report for cultural reasons. 

There was an earlier account of what at least one female Israeli soldier was put through in October. Horrific. Maybe even moreso than what other women suffered. Torture isn't an adequate word for such psychopathic outrages.

The Israelis have been cruel captors, but there is no way to both sides this one. Not close.

I would like some insight into how Hamas creates such an army. We all can name generalities, but if anyone has a resource that really looks into the brainwashing that must be going on. This is beyond anger. This is beyond what is needed for terrorism. These men were not all born psychopaths.

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17 minutes ago, 'stache said:

There are three parties directly involved: (1) Israel, a country with a government recognized by nearly every UN country across the planet, and with the support of pretty much every western power; (2) Hamas, a terrorist organization, whose claim to governmental legitimacy is not recognized by nearly every UN country and every western power; (3) Civilian residents of Gaza who are being exterminated as part of retaliation against Hamas, which is defined as the war crime of collective punishment.

Everyone here has said that Oct. 7 was a heinous attack and Hamas should be punished and destroyed to the extent possible. Those pushing back are saying that the third parties, the civilians of Gaza, who have zero power to do anything other than try to dodge bombs and not starve to death, don't deserve what is happening to them, and that the west should do more to address their plight. Many here and everywhere else are saying it is justified because Hamas is using them as human shields, but doesn't that just underscore that they are not a legitimate government and are just as much the enemy of Gaza civilians?

You keep talking about both sides wanting to "exterminate" the other. My first response to this is that, while they are wrong to think this way, the civilians of Gaza are likely to respond to a poll that Israel should leave the region because their lived experience is that Israel has oppressed them, but at the end of the day, they have zero power, so there is no real possibility of Israel being exterminated by Palestinians. Conversely, Gaza is in peril of being exterminated, they are already half way there having destroyed so much civilian infrastructure.

Because of the disparity in power, Israel has to be the ones to agree to a two-state or whatever other solution that might be proposed with the help of the UN. Hamas doesn't need to agree, because, as I keep saying like a broken record, they are terrorists, not a government. You pushed back on that earlier, but the UN doesn't recognize Hamas as a government, so they are not a government for this purpose. 

Finally, I don't think it's unreasonable for Israel to just accept that terrorism is a thing, and the focus should be on stopping it to the extent possible through intelligence, etc. Here in the US we face terrorism every other week, most prominently mass shootings, and yet we just seem to accept that as part of life in the US. We also face the threat of middle east and other terrorists and it's not reasonable to think we can stop it entirely (hence why most today feel the "war on terror" was a dumb concept). 

There's so much more in my head, but I will never agree with you that Palestinians pose any real threat of "exterminating" Israel, but the reverse is true, and 2 million civilians in Gaza don't deserve what is happening to them, which is about as close to genocide as the modern world has seen in some time.

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So very well put, 'Stache. You cover my opinions and add others. 

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1 hour ago, 'stache said:

 

Finally, I don't think it's unreasonable for Israel to just accept that terrorism is a thing, and the focus should be on stopping it to the extent possible through intelligence, etc. Here in the US we face terrorism every other week, most prominently mass shootings, and yet we just seem to accept that as part of life in the US. We also face the threat of middle east and other terrorists and it's not reasonable to think we can stop it entirely (hence why most today feel the "war on terror" was a dumb concept). 

 

There’s a lot in that post to dive into but I just don’t see how the extract squares with reality. 
 

1,200 Israeli men, women, and children were murdered on October 7, in a spectacular and gruesome fashion blasted all over social media. Per capita, this would be like a foreign paramilitary group going house to house in Huntsville, killing and raping until every person was dead while the rest of America watched on Insta reels. 

The “unreasonable” take here is to suggest that any government in the world, especially democracies, would respond with “these things happen, our bad for not catching it, we will stop them next time.” That just simply isn’t how this works and the people who planned that attack knew about it and wanted it.

This is the type of thing that you can say only as an American where for most purposes we won the war on terror in the sense that there have been no mass (100 plus victims) foreign terror  attacks on American soil for 23 years.  There is no government in the world that would take the approach you’re advocating and no population that would accept it as a response. If 45,000 Americans died tomorrow because of a Zetas attack, there’d be divisions in Mexico. If 20,000 Italians were killed by Tunisian pirates on TikTok, a carrier strike group would be shaping operations for an amphibious NATO assault.  We can get into tactics and proportionality but an attack of this scale against a modern state always ends in a military response. 

If you’d like a baseline and status quo, you can point at the Israeli posture toward dribs and drabs of rocket and small suicide attacks pre-10/7 and say that they had basically accepted this status quo. 10/7 upset the status quo in a way no government of any stripe could ignore. 

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22 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

The “unreasonable” take here is to suggest that any government in the world, especially democracies, would respond with “these things happen, our bad for not catching it, we will stop them next time.” That just simply isn’t how this works and the people who planned that attack knew about it and wanted it.

Nothing in the post suggested that pre-emptive actions were off limits. No one is suggesting kid gloves. After 911, I've advocated a war on the terrorists who mean us harm mainly using intelligence and special forces. I capped it off with saying I'd rather err on the side of thoroughness.

Bombing the Gaza strip into uninhabitable rubble while pressuring a neighboring country to take in the refugees is displacement on a massive scale. The ensuing starvation, disease, lack of shelter, lack of feminine napkins (no joke), and even water has little to do with the October attacks at this point. I don't care to get into an argument about the definition of genocide because it's a trivial distinction to me. Mass slaughter of noncombatant civilians meets a high enough standard.

Calling this a war is a lie.

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Posted (edited)

Yes, Hamas are terrorists, and not a real government. That’s true. (Not that this keeps Iran, the UN and Qatar from treating them like a legit government). 
 
What is also true is that they used their power in Gaza to usurp UNRWA operations. 
 
What is also true is that Iran funds Hamas and helped operationally plan and schedule October 7. 
 
I’d like to see:

Israel adopt a scalpel approach, and to eradicate Hamas

Qatar be pressured into handing over Hamas leadership

The UN be scourged of its antisemitic branches

Iran be treated by the U.S. as the rogue nation it is

The Palestinian people to take steps towards forming a liberal democracy

Oh, and for the hostages to be freed 

Edited by statsman
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1 hour ago, RomaVicta said:

Nothing in the post suggested that pre-emptive actions were off limits. No one is suggesting kid gloves. After 911, I've advocated a war on the terrorists who mean us harm mainly using intelligence and special forces. I capped it off with saying I'd rather err on the side of thoroughness.

Bombing the Gaza strip into uninhabitable rubble while pressuring a neighboring country to take in the refugees is displacement on a massive scale. The ensuing starvation, disease, lack of shelter, lack of feminine napkins (no joke), and even water has little to do with the October attacks at this point. I don't care to get into an argument about the definition of genocide because it's a trivial distinction to me. Mass slaughter of noncombatant civilians meets a high enough standard.

Calling this a war is a lie.

I sincerely do not understand why some feel the need to keep hammering the "Israel had to respond" line over and over despite the fact that literally no one is arguing against that. Like no fucking shit they had to respond. Thanks for the deep and thoughtful insight. I guess if your perspective boils down to that the Israeli lives taken are what ultimately matter, and any Palestinian life taken is just an "unfortunate circumstance", this is what you get.

Western media certainly doesn't help. Israelis are killed. Palestinians just magically drop dead.

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3 hours ago, RomaVicta said:

Nothing in the post suggested that pre-emptive actions were off limits. No one is suggesting kid gloves. After 911, I've advocated a war on the terrorists who mean us harm mainly using intelligence and special forces. I capped it off with saying I'd rather err on the side of thoroughness.

Bombing the Gaza strip into uninhabitable rubble while pressuring a neighboring country to take in the refugees is displacement on a massive scale. The ensuing starvation, disease, lack of shelter, lack of feminine napkins (no joke), and even water has little to do with the October attacks at this point. I don't care to get into an argument about the definition of genocide because it's a trivial distinction to me. Mass slaughter of noncombatant civilians meets a high enough standard.

Calling this a war is a lie.

My entire point is simply that an SF/Intelligence response was never an option, never was going to happen. It was always going to be a large conventional military response. Any modern state with a functioning military was going to respond to an attack at that scale with a big conventional response. I just don’t think we are appreciating the scale of what happened. 

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3 hours ago, statsman said:

Yes, Hamas are terrorists, and not a real government. That’s true. (Not that this keeps Iran, the UN and Qatar from treating them like a legit government). 
 
What is also true is that they used their power in Gaza to usurp UNRWA operations. 
 
What is also true is that Iran funds Hamas and helped operationally plan and schedule October 7. 
 
I’d like to see:

Israel adopt a scalpel approach, and to eradicate Hamas

Qatar be pressured into handing over Hamas leadership

The UN be scourged of its antisemitic branches

Iran be treated by the U.S. as the rogue nation it is

The Palestinian people to take steps towards forming a liberal democracy

Oh, and for the hostages to be freed 

Will Israel ever allow this to happen?

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Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Will Israel ever allow this to happen?

Probably not....

11 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

Netanyahu will die first.

...and even then....probably not.  But Bibi's death would be a helpful event.  From your lips to god's ears.

 

There might have been some hope for getting Israel to agree with that path (something that looks like a two-state solution with Palestinian sovereignty and self-determination).  That hope is lost.  The mood in Israel, even among the non-hardliners, is shit.  October 7th succeeded in one of its goals: ensuring that there is never, ever a peaceful resolution to the dispute.

It also succeeded in making sure the climate also guarantees that the Palestinians don't ever want a peaceful co-existence with Israel.  They will want Israeli blood, forever and ever.  In many respects, Israel has only itself to blame for that (due to it's brutal and heavy-handed response), but then that's actually what the current Israeli regime wants (an environment in which it can truthfully say "see?  There is no hope for peace, so war is the only way!).  As I've said repeatedly, the bloodthirsty hardliners on both sides have completely gotten their way, and all other voices are functionally irrelevant.

Edited by Brisketexan
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36 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Probably not....

...and even then....probably not.  But Bibi's death would be a helpful event.  From your lips to god's ears.

Yeah I mean I'm engaging in a bit of hyperbole there, but I have no doubt that he's had that exact thought. Ultimately, I suspect he takes the coward's way out before he ultimately ends up in prison.

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36 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

My entire point is simply that an SF/Intelligence response was never an option, never was going to happen. It was always going to be a large conventional military response. Any modern state with a functioning military was going to respond to an attack at that scale with a big conventional response. I just don’t think we are appreciating the scale of what happened. 

I couldn't disagree more. The US, bloody as we can be, didn't cut a swath through every town in Afghanistan after 9/11. What you say is an inevitability is clearly not. Even it the slaughter in Gaza was an inevitability because of Israel's disposition, the attack would not be justified.

I'll say it a last time; the attack in October is no longer what is leading Israeli policy. They want to erase the Palestinians from Gaza. And we're complicit.

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9 minutes ago, RomaVicta said:

I couldn't disagree more. The US, bloody as we can be, didn't cut a swath through every town in Afghanistan after 9/11. What you say is an inevitability is clearly not. Even it the slaughter in Gaza was an inevitability because of Israel's disposition, the attack would not be justified.

I'll say it a last time; the attack in October is no longer what is leading Israeli policy. They want to erase the Palestinians from Gaza. And we're complicit.

It’s not the same terrain or enemy and not the same war.  The Taliban bolted to the mountains and Pakistan.  Hamas didn’t, and cannot.  
 

We fucking leveled Raqqa and Mosul and displaced a million people and that was fighting ISIS.

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1 hour ago, 956 Worldwide said:

It’s not the same terrain or enemy and not the same war.  The Taliban bolted to the mountains and Pakistan.  Hamas didn’t, and cannot.  
 

We fucking leveled Raqqa and Mosul and displaced a million people and that was fighting ISIS.

Tell me you never worked in Helmand. I lost quite a few teams in country.

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

It’s not the same terrain or enemy and not the same war.  The Taliban bolted to the mountains and Pakistan.  Hamas didn’t, and cannot.  
 

We fucking leveled Raqqa and Mosul and displaced a million people and that was fighting ISIS.

You're smart, but this position of yours is getting desperate. We're bloody, violent, and stupid in our application of force. We're far more restrained than Israel. Destroying Kabul with airstrikes followed by an armored invasion would be comparable.

The ISIS conflict was horrible. The Iraq invasion needlessly killed tens of thousands of civilians not counting the post battle trauma. We were wrong to invade and the results have been disastrous. Baghdad is not a pile of rubble. Iraquis stilll live in Iraq. We've no doubt killed way too many people but, other than the indigenous population of North America, we haven't made a policy of erasing a people.

Israel is conducting a campaign akin to what the Serbs were trying to do in Kosovo.  Or akin to our shameful history with the native civilization of North America. The Nazis in Warsaw also make for a good example of a trained modern army crushing determined but feeble resistance and erasing the inhabitants.

I don't see those as precedents justifying Israel's slaughter and starve campaign.  

I don't think you finding details that differ means much. You need to argue how Israel is justified. You can't rely on calling it inevitable. You can't rely on hypotheticals that history does not support.

I'll repeat that I respect you and your way of arguing. I've learned a lot from you.

Edited by RomaVicta
Clarified which indigenous peope I'm referring to. Second edit to edit the original message in this box.
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10 hours ago, RomaVicta said:

The Iraq invasion needlessly killed tens of thousands of civilians not counting the post battle trauma. We were wrong to invade and the results have been disastrous.

You are responding to a poster that if teleported back in time would have been happily posting links of articles and tweets about the Nigerian yellow cake scam in 2001 to justify the run up to the invasion. 

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34 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

You are responding to a poster that if teleported back in time would have been happily posting links of articles and tweets about the Nigerian yellow cake scam in 2001 to justify the run up to the invasion. 

There's probably a non-zero percentage of posters on this site that still believe that lie.

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37 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

There's probably a non-zero percentage of posters on this site that still believe that lie.

There is a nonzero number of Americans that refuse to learn from their own lived experience. They just want to fall for the same tried propaganda artistry over and over again. 

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10 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

There is a nonzero number of Americans that refuse to learn from their own lived experience. They just want to fall for the same tried propaganda artistry over and over again. 

 

Yes we call them republicans

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Political realignment is a generous term.  They didn't shuffle from one conference to another of equal/better prominence.  They went from the equivalent of the College Football Playoff champions of the FBS to a helmet-less pickup league of GED holders.  

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14 hours ago, RomaVicta said:

You're smart, but this position of yours is getting desperate. We're bloody, violent, and stupid in our application of force. We're far more restrained than Israel. Destroying Kabul with airstrikes followed by an armored invasion would be comparable.

The ISIS conflict was horrible. The Iraq invasion needlessly killed tens of thousands of civilians not counting the post battle trauma. We were wrong to invade and the results have been disastrous. Baghdad is not a pile of rubble. Iraquis stilll live in Iraq. We've no doubt killed way too many people but, other than the indigenous population of North America, we haven't made a policy of erasing a people.

Israel is conducting a campaign akin to what the Serbs were trying to do in Kosovo.  Or akin to our shameful history with the native civilization of North America. The Nazis in Warsaw also make for a good example of a trained modern army crushing determined but feeble resistance and erasing the inhabitants.

I don't see those as precedents justifying Israel's slaughter and starve campaign.  

I don't think you finding details that differ means much. You need to argue how Israel is justified. You can't rely on calling it inevitable. You can't rely on hypotheticals that history does not support.

I'll repeat that I respect you and your way of arguing. I've learned a lot from you.

I think that everyone is so far removed from all of this they can’t even begin to comprehend how great a trump presidency is compared to living in any part of Israel or even more detached anywhere in Palestine is. 

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21 hours ago, RomaVicta said:

You're smart, but this position of yours is getting desperate. We're bloody, violent, and stupid in our application of force. We're far more restrained than Israel. Destroying Kabul with airstrikes followed by an armored invasion would be comparable.

The ISIS conflict was horrible. The Iraq invasion needlessly killed tens of thousands of civilians not counting the post battle trauma. We were wrong to invade and the results have been disastrous. Baghdad is not a pile of rubble. Iraquis stilll live in Iraq. We've no doubt killed way too many people but, other than the indigenous population of North America, we haven't made a policy of erasing a people.

Israel is conducting a campaign akin to what the Serbs were trying to do in Kosovo.  Or akin to our shameful history with the native civilization of North America. The Nazis in Warsaw also make for a good example of a trained modern army crushing determined but feeble resistance and erasing the inhabitants.

I don't see those as precedents justifying Israel's slaughter and starve campaign.  

I don't think you finding details that differ means much. You need to argue how Israel is justified. You can't rely on calling it inevitable. You can't rely on hypotheticals that history does not support.

I'll repeat that I respect you and your way of arguing. I've learned a lot from you.

I have not argued that this campaign was inevitable. I have said that a conventional military response was inevitable. It was. 

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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, Anastasis said:

You are responding to a poster that if teleported back in time would have been happily posting links of articles and tweets about the Nigerian yellow cake scam in 2001 to justify the run up to the invasion. 

And you are a poster who spews lies and propaganda today. A main difference being that you are doing it as a service to your country’s enemies. Fuck off Putin shill. Don’t thing it’s not obvious that you shifted to caring about this just because you were getting no traction on Ukraine .

Edited by 956 Worldwide
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7 hours ago, Smax said:

So how many civilian hostages does hamas have?

Not hearing a lot about them ...

It's estimated that Hamas is holding about 134 hostages, while Israel is holding thousands of Palestinians from within Israel alongside those they've taken Gaza. We can suspect some Palestinians may have been combatants or are Hamas adjacent, but we know that they're also holding many, many innocents, including women and juveniles.

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1 hour ago, 956 Worldwide said:

I have not argued that this campaign was inevitable. I have said that a conventional military response was inevitable. It was. 

What I quoted from one of your posts:

Quote

My entire point is simply that an SF/Intelligence response was never an option, never was going to happen. It was always going to be a large conventional military response. Any modern state with a functioning military was going to respond to an attack at that scale with a big conventional response. I just don’t think we are appreciating the scale of what happened. 

Perhaps you can explain where I go wrong in my interpretation of "large conventional military response" while referring to this campaign.

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, Smax said:

So how many civilian hostages does hamas have?

Not hearing a lot about them ...

 

This was reported in an obscure publication called the New York Times.

 

image.png.45bed93e5f6f36919dad046e31a54e65.pngimage.png.8ecb913f66dbc621377ee5a81af72203.png

...

image.png.3ea94e81668b0b89a00060b652d3973d.png

 

Below, is a dated discussion of it between myself and @956 Worldwide.

 

Edited by RomaVicta
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17 minutes ago, RomaVicta said:

What I quoted from one of your posts:

Perhaps you can explain where I go wrong in my interpretation of "large conventional military response" while referring to this campaign.

It was not an option— given the scale of the attack and Hamas’ infrastructure and forces— to just do some targeted special forces raids and so-called “pinpoint” strikes.

 There was not really a choice from the Israeli government to send in regular troops for an on-the-ground presence and real fighting.  The enemy and the attack demanded it. 

That doesn’t mean it had to be this— bouncing the rubble, refusing to let in aid, and the near complete destruction it turned into. 

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2 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

And you are a poster who spews lies and propaganda today. A main difference being that you are doing it as a service to your country’s enemies. Fuck off Putin shill. Don’t thing it’s not obvious that you shifted to caring about this just because you were getting no traction on Ukraine .

pOuTInE tAlkInG pOiNts!!21!. 

 

Happy that you are able to get greater use of that one, but it is not in any way a reflection of a shift in my caring. Jesus Christ, we've be discussing Israel, settlements, and American policy wrt Israel on the political boards for ever. This thread is young and it is nearly 6 years old. I do realize that you just tuned in to the discussion though.  

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

It was not an option— given the scale of the attack and Hamas’ infrastructure and forces— to just do some targeted special forces raids and so-called “pinpoint” strikes.

 There was not really a choice from the Israeli government to send in regular troops for an on-the-ground presence and real fighting.  The enemy and the attack demanded it. 

That doesn’t mean it had to be this— bouncing the rubble, refusing to let in aid, and the near complete destruction it turned into. 

If it wasn't clear, I wasn't advocating for only special forces targeted intelligence immediately after Oct. 7, and some scaled offensive was arguably justifiable on a reasonable scale. So I don't think we're that far off, though we'd probably disagree on what "reasonable scale" is while agreeing that what they've done is way beyond the line. But I also view this situation well before Oct. 7 and intelligence should have been better employed and probably could have prevented or reduced the scale of the Oct. 7 attack. I firmly believe that Bibi and friends knew that an attack was imminent and let it happen in accordance with their longstanding policy of letting terrorism occur to justify subjugation of 2M residents of Gaza. I don't think they expected it to be as bad as what happened, but they did little or nothing to prevent it from happening. Under that analysis, I think more targeted intelligence should have been employed the entire time and that they are not doing so for strategic reasons. Since it was worse than they anticipated, they switched gears to leveling Gaza entirely and removing all of its residents. I'm firmly convinced of that and I don't see any evidence that might dissuade me from that opinion.

Edited by 'stache
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https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2024/03/06/us-weapons-israel-gaza/

The United States has quietly approved and delivered more than 100 separate foreign military sales to Israel since the Gaza war began Oct. 7, amounting to thousands of precision-guided munitions, small-diameter bombs, bunker busters, small arms and other lethal aid, U.S. officials told members of Congress in a recent classified briefing.

The triple-digit figure, which has not been previously reported, is the latest indication of Washington’s extensive involvement in the polarizing five-month conflict even as top U.S. officials and lawmakers increasingly express deep reservations about Israel’s military tactics in a campaign that has killed more than 30,000 people, according to Gaza’s health authorities.

What is clear is Washington’s deep involvement in the conflict, even if it isn’t the entity dropping the munitions or pulling the trigger, said Konyndyk, the former administration official.

“The U.S. cannot maintain that, on the one hand, Israel is a sovereign state that’s making its own decisions and we’re not going to second-guess them, and, on the other hand, transfer this level of armament in such a short time and somehow act as if we are not directly involved,” he said.

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Posted (edited)

CR question, I guess. I get confused when people talk about “occupation”. 

Who believes the Palestinian peoples in Gaza and the West Bank are governed by the state of Israel?

Who believes they are not?

 
I am holding the belief that although there are some Palestinians with official Israeli citizenship, that those without official Israeli citizenship are not governed by Israel, but by the PA (West Bank) or by Hamas (Gaza). 
 
Does anyone believe otherwise, and if so, can you explain? Is it tied into a belief that the state of Israel is not a legitimate state (I believe Israel is a legitimate state)?

I’m asking, because it feels like there is a debate/conversation going on where one side is assuming something is obvious and known, and I’m not sure it is. 
 
For example, does “occupation” mean occupying Gaza and WB, or occupying the whole Levant?

Edited by statsman
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14 minutes ago, statsman said:

CR question, I guess. I get confused when people talk about “occupation”. 

Who believes the Palestinian peoples in Gaza and the West Bank are governed by the state of Israel?

Who believes they are not?

 
I am holding the belief that although there are some Palestinians with official Israeli citizenship, that those without official Israeli citizenship are not governed by Israel, but by the PA (West Bank) or by Hamas (Gaza). 
 
Does anyone believe otherwise, and if so, can you explain? Is it tied into a belief that the state of Israel is not a legitimate state (I believe Israel is a legitimate state)?

I’m asking, because it feels like there is a debate/conversation going on where one side is assuming something is obvious and known, and I’m not sure it is. 
 
For example, does “occupation” mean occupying Gaza and WB, or occupying the whole Levant?

It has nothing to do with Israel's legitimacy. Not to get into a game of semantics over the definition of "occupation," but even the Supreme Court OF ISRAEL considers the West Bank occupied territories.

The general point of departure of all parties – which is also our point of departure – is that Israel holds the area in belligerent occupation (occupatio bellica)......The authority of the military commander flows from the provisions of public international law regarding belligerent occupation. These rules are established principally in the Regulations Concerning the Laws and Customs of War on Land, The Hague, 18 October 1907 [hereinafter – the Hague Regulations]. These regulations reflect customary international law. The military commander's authority is also anchored in IV Geneva Convention Relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War 1949.

 

The International Court of Justice does too:

The territories situated between the Green Line and the former eastern boundary of Palestine under the Mandate were occupied by Israel in 1967 during the armed conflict between Israel and Jordan. Under customary international law, the Court observes, these were therefore occupied territories in which Israel had the status of occupying Power. Subsequent events in these territories have done nothing to alter this situation. The Court concludes that all these territories (including East Jerusalem) remain occupied territories and that Israel has continued to have the status of occupying Power.

 

As does the US government.

Israel exercises varying degrees of legal, military, and economic control in the Occupied Territories. Israel has no constitution; however, the Basic Law on Human Dignity and Liberty provides for freedom of worship. The Israeli Government generally respects this right in practice in the Occupied Territories. However, Israel's strict closure policies frequently restricted the ability of Palestinians to reach places of worship and to practice their religions.

 

Every other international organization under the sun also considers them Occupied Territories.

Remember, the Palestinian Authority only "controls" 18% of the West Bank, but even so, those scattered enclaves (Area A) are subject to Israeli incursion. An additional 22% of land is jointly administered by the PA and Israel. The remainder, 60%, is completely controlled by Israel. 

And certainly, I don't see how anyone could argue that the Gaza Strip isn't currently occupied.

How is this even a fucking question?

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Posted (edited)

No, that helps a lot. Thanks. 
 
My confusion was over Gaza. I thought the whole point of Israel abandoning it in 2005 was to wash their hands of it, to drop responsibility, so that they couldn’t be accused of occupying it. 
 
I guess you’re right in that they are occupying it now, since they’ve declared war on Hamas. 

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3 minutes ago, statsman said:

No, that helps a lot. Thanks. 
 
My confusion was over Gaza. I thought the whole point of Israel abandoning it in 2005 was to wash their hands of it, to drop responsibility, so that they couldn’t be accused of occupying it. 
 
I guess you’re right in that they are occupying it now, since they’ve declared war on Hamas. 

Before what's going on right now, it could be a legitimate discussion about control in Gaza. I think Israel oversaw nearly all the basic utilities (telecommunications, electricity, water, etc.). They also controlled every border crossing and Gaza's territorial waters. Of course, they didn't physically occupy it in a traditional military sense, but they did exert a great deal of authority over Gaza. So I guess "blockade" would've been the closest description of that state of affairs.

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