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Texas basketball 2020-21: Not even Shaka can fuck this up...right?


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3 hours ago, shadow_operative said:

what is the point of this discussion here? seriously? if the point is comparing Barnes and Smart as coaches then just stop. there's zero question as to where each coach stands. 

Yep. 

One is empirically one of the worst NCAA tournament coaches of all time according to 538

And the other is not

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/jim-boeheim-is-the-new-king-of-march-madness/

"And at the other end of the spectrum, some active coaches have added this month to their less-than-stellar tourney marks. Tennessee’s Rick Barnes ranks as the second-worst NCAA tournament coach since 1985 by this metric, and his Volunteers flamed out as a No. 3 seed against No. 11 Loyola-Chicago. (Barnes beats only current Temple coach Fran Dunphy.)"

Edited by MotownHorn
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4 hours ago, Js1 said:

The Big 12 is def tougher now - both from a coaching standpoint and format.  Shaka's entire tenure has been the double round robin and having to play KU and WV twice, whereas Barnes had the majority of his Texas tenure with the North/South split.  Baylor, OU and Tech are better now than they were when Barnes was here.  ISU, OSU and KSU are worse.  CU/TCU is a push.  WV is better than A&M.   Kansas is Kansas. 

OU was pretty good during the early part of Barnes career under Kelvin Sampson. And they were again pretty good during Blake's Griffin's 2 years. They were a 1 seed alongside of us the year we went to the Final 4. Baylor is clearly better and Tech is as well although they were a decent program during Bobby Knight's tenure. 

Edited by Catdaddyhorn
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1 hour ago, MotownHorn said:

Yep. 

One is empirically one of the worst NCAA tournament coaches of all time according to 538

And the other is not

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/jim-boeheim-is-the-new-king-of-march-madness/

"And at the other end of the spectrum, some active coaches have added this month to their less-than-stellar tourney marks. Tennessee’s Rick Barnes ranks as the second-worst NCAA tournament coach since 1985 by this metric, and his Volunteers flamed out as a No. 3 seed against No. 11 Loyola-Chicago. (Barnes beats only current Temple coach Fran Dunphy.)"

On this specific metric, two names that completely matched my gut reaction (fair or not) before looking at it were Calipari (very high) and Self (very low).  

I have to add that seeing Izzo at #2 is something I actually should have guessed.

Edited by UTDD
Izzo
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1 hour ago, Knoxtnhorn said:

Uh oh.  Now you've done it.

we've dissected that piece no less than five times between here and shaggy, and i have zero interest in having that same discussion all over again, particularly not with this obsessive weirdo who keeps coming after me with ad hominem disses about Rick Barnes every single day. 

FTR- Barnes is a totally average tourney coach with at most two "bad" tournament losses. 90% of his losses as a favored seed are in 4/5 and 8/9 games. He pretty much always plays to his seed.

Edited by shadow_operative
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6 hours ago, Js1 said:

The Big 12 is def tougher now - both from a coaching standpoint and format.  Shaka's entire tenure has been the double round robin and having to play KU and WV twice, whereas Barnes had the majority of his Texas tenure with the North/South split.  Baylor, OU and Tech are better now than they were when Barnes was here.  ISU, OSU and KSU are worse.  CU/TCU is a push.  WV is better than A&M.   Kansas is Kansas. 

Hmm.  Aughts (2000-2009) v. Tens (2010-2019).  Going by results and not by seeding. 

12 points for winning it all.

10 points for finalist.

8 points for final four.

6 points for Elite Eight.

4 points for Sweet 16. 

2 points for 32.

1 point for making tourney. 

1/2 point for winning NIT.

 

Aughts (2000-2009):  

KU: Roy/Self = 54 pts 

OU: Sampson/Capel = 28 pts

UT: Barnes = 37 pts

ISU: Eustachy/Morgan/McDermott = 9 pts

OSU: Sutton/Sutton/Ford = 25 pts

BU: Bliss/Drew = 1 pt

TT: Dickey/Knight/Knight = 8 pts

KSU: Asbury/Wooldridge/Huggins/Martin = 2 pts

Mizzou: Snyder/Watkins/Anderson = 17 pts

A&M: Watkins/Gillispie/Turgeon = 10 pts

CU: Patton/Bzdelik = 1 pt

NU: Nee/Coller/Sadler = 0 pts

 

(Tens) (2010-2019)

KU: Self = 46 pts

OU: Capel/Kruger = 21 pts

UT: Barnes/Smart = 8.5 pts

ISU: Hoiberg/Prohm = 15 pts

OSU: Ford/Underwood/Boynton = 5 pts

BU: Drew = 23.5 pts

TT: Knight/Gillispie/Walker/Smith/Beard = 17 pts

KSU: Martin/Weber = 20 pts

Mizzou: Haith (2010-2012) = 5 pts

WV: Huggins (2013-2019) = 13 pts

A&M: Turgeon/Kennedy (2010-2012) = 4 pts

CU: Bzdelik/Boyle (2010-2011) = 0 pts

NU: Sadler (2010-2011) = 0 pts

TCU: Johnson/Dixon (2013-2019) = 1.5 pts

 

Aughts 192 - Tens 179.5. 

Big takeaways:

Can't say Texas and Baylor switched, but the differentials are really close:  UT 37-8.5=28.5.  BU 23.5-1=22.5.  

TT's point were from last two years due to being a finalist and EE.

Mizzou and WV roughly the same.  A&M ain't the right comp.

OSU way better under Sutton.

OU slightly better under Sampson.

KSU way better under Martin/Weber. Basically it was two EE runs, but more consistent tournament appearances.

I thought ISU was better in both decades, but outside of some really good teams, not so much.

3 B12 teams won the NIT in the Tens.  All Texas teams.  Let's add some cattle to that hat.

 

Used this website to make calculations. https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/conferences/big-12/ncaa.html

 

 

 

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So... I don't watch CBB as much as I used to... Somebody tell me, has Shaka had NBA talent like Rick had at the end of his tenure.

I used to complain that Rick underperformed the talent and couldn't get them to rebound or make a FT to save a game... But I don't know if he could have changed that much.

I haven't seen or heard of anywhere near the level of players in the last six years. I know it took Rick a while to get that level of player consistently.

I'm not trying to compare recruiting ability, just curious as to where the board sees the talent level. Basketball is the sport where talent generally wins, and I don't recall Texas having to talent. I think this season is probably the best talent we've had under Shaka, yes?

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46 minutes ago, Snacks said:

So... I don't watch CBB as much as I used to... Somebody tell me, has Shaka had NBA talent like Rick had at the end of his tenure.

I used to complain that Rick underperformed the talent and couldn't get them to rebound or make a FT to save a game... But I don't know if he could have changed that much.

I haven't seen or heard of anywhere near the level of players in the last six years. I know it took Rick a while to get that level of player consistently.

I'm not trying to compare recruiting ability, just curious as to where the board sees the talent level. Basketball is the sport where talent generally wins, and I don't recall Texas having to talent. I think this season is probably the best talent we've had under Shaka, yes?

We have two surefire NBA draft picks on this team.

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44 minutes ago, Snacks said:

So... I don't watch CBB as much as I used to... Somebody tell me, has Shaka had NBA talent like Rick had at the end of his tenure.

I used to complain that Rick underperformed the talent and couldn't get them to rebound or make a FT to save a game... But I don't know if he could have changed that much.

I haven't seen or heard of anywhere near the level of players in the last six years. I know it took Rick a while to get that level of player consistently.

I'm not trying to compare recruiting ability, just curious as to where the board sees the talent level. Basketball is the sport where talent generally wins, and I don't recall Texas having to talent. I think this season is probably the best talent we've had under Shaka, yes?

We’ve had 3 guys drafted in the first round in his five seasons, 2 of them in the top 10. We will likely have 2 from this current roster drafted in the first round as well. Talent isn’t the problem.

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9 hours ago, hobbes2702 said:

We’ve had 3 guys drafted in the first round in his five seasons, 2 of them in the top 10. We will likely have 2 from this current roster drafted in the first round as well. Talent isn’t the problem.

Just because they are drafted by the NBA in the first round does not mean they are great college players. Many NBA draft picks are decided on "potential" only.

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5 hours ago, Steamboat1874 said:

Just because they are drafted by the NBA in the first round does not mean they are great college players. Many NBA draft picks are decided on "potential" only.

The question was about talent. If you’re drafted in the first round you have talent. Some coaches get that talent to perform. Others don’t. 

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during his time at Texas Shaka Smart has consistently brought in talent commensurate with what Rick Barnes brought to Texas, if not slightly better talent, at least coming out of HS. but as Hobbes said, some coaches know how to utilize that talent, and others don't.

Barnes gets DJ Augustin and Damion James and says, "ok, we're going to run the Phoenix Suns' offense now. DJ you'll be Nash, Damion you'll be Stoudamire." We went 31-7 (13-3), won the league, made a trip to the Elite 8, and finished 7th in the final AP poll. DJ Augustin was a first team All American and won the Bob Cousy Award, both over Derrick Rose.

Meanwhile, Shaka gets a bunch of career 30% three point shooters and athletic-but-unrefined one-and-dones and says, "alright we'll run nothing but ISO's, and/or attempt 35 threes every game." No league titles, or deep tourney runs, or polished All American players. nope. just the same old shit sandwich, year after year. 

Edited by shadow_operative
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that's hilarious. the guy who finds a way to derisively insert Rick Barnes into every single thread on this board says he'll take a year like this one every year. really? you enjoy having a Final Four caliber roster that peaked in early january and has been an underperforming mess ever since? 4-5 in our last 9 including three consecutive home losses and a game where our two best players had to be separated from one another on national TV? that's what you want every year. lmao, of course you do. god what a moron. 

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Well, in fairness he took Jaxson Hayes from the #112 ranked HS recruit and got him drafted #8. And Kai Jones was the #59 recruit and he is looking like a potential lottery pick.

It isn’t like he is JUST renting 5-star players for a year. There have been some dudes over perform their recruiting rank and he should get as much credit for them as he does blame for the 5-stars who don’t pan out.

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16 minutes ago, HookEm said:

Well, in fairness he took Jaxson Hayes from the #112 ranked HS recruit and got him drafted #8. And Kai Jones was the #59 recruit and he is looking like a potential lottery pick.

It isn’t like he is JUST renting 5-star players for a year. There have been some dudes over perform their recruiting rank and he should get as much credit for them as he does blame for the 5-stars who don’t pan out.

Shaka did not develop those dudes, those dudes were late bloomers/under recruited athletic freaks who are getting drafted based on their own insane athletic gifts and future potential, not because Shaka's amazing coaching suddenly made them awesome. as a matter of fact, Shaka's dumb ass had Kai riding the pine last year until we suffered multiple injuries leading to playing time for Kai and a five game win streak that saved Shaka's job. Besides which, neither of those guys have won anything of import during their time on campus, despite their high level talent. and yet you want to give Shaka kudos for bringing them here and then winning nothing?  no, no i don't think i will praise him for that. 

Edited by shadow_operative
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12 hours ago, hobbes2702 said:

Well we haven’t been those seeds at all under Shaka so not sure your point

My point is you’re bitching about previous years while completely ignoring this years potentially great team 

it’s really fucking stupid but y’all enjoy rooting for the Texas longhorns to lose so you look “smart” on the Internet 

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1 hour ago, MotownHorn said:

My point is you’re bitching about previous years while completely ignoring this years potentially great team 

it’s really fucking stupid but y’all enjoy rooting for the Texas longhorns to lose so you look “smart” on the Internet 

Your point doesn’t make sense because there’s no evidence this team is any different. No one is rooting for us to lose. That you think this is a potentially great team shows you haven’t been paying attention to this or previous seasons under Shaka. It’s really fucking stupid for you to think that pointing out the problems means rooting to lose.

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On 2/26/2021 at 8:29 AM, Steamboat1874 said:

Just because they are drafted by the NBA in the first round does not mean they are great college players. Many NBA draft picks are decided on "potential" only.

Well .. the NBA gets a clean slate to work with because Shaka has done little to enhance that potential.

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4 hours ago, Catdaddyhorn said:

After the Goergetown game last year I remember Kai getting pretty steady minutes throughout the entire season which was well before that late season stretch you're referencing. 

either way it's pretty ridiculous to assert that Shaka's amazing developmental practices are what made Hayes and Jones lottery picks. 

 

edit: and just for the record:

Kai Jones minutes played by month last season:

November- 37

December- 70

January- 105

February- 189

March- 49 (in two games)

 

so like I said- Shaka didn't even see what he had in Kai Jones, and didn't give him any consistent run until he was forced to do so. but yeah he's totally responsible for Kai being a high draft pick. 🙄 hell, Kai wasn't even on any draft boards coming into this season he was anonymous last year. HookEm claims he's no Shaka Smart apologist, but he's either that or a straight up contrarian. 

Edited by shadow_operative
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On 2/23/2021 at 3:47 PM, ztejas said:

You claimed that he's had a "whole lot of" sub 25% FG and 5 turnover "type" games when he hasn't had one game even somewhat resembling that this season. Yes, he has had poor shooting outings. No one is debating that. In the 8 games you are now listing (and I wouldn't consider 4/11 from the field and 4/4 from the line with 0 turns "dogshit") he averaged just under 1.4 turnovers a game. So no, your assessment wasn't really accurate at all. You're just throwing out stupid, easily fact-checked misinformation. 

He was 1 for 10 today but only one turnover so you’re right Ramey’s fucking great bro! He definitely should have screamed at Jones for one bad play!

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7 minutes ago, MotownHorn said:

He was 1 for 10 today but only one turnover so you’re right Ramey’s fucking great bro! He definitely should have screamed at Jones for one bad play!

You're adorable. Maybe one day he'll actually have 5 turnovers and you won't be such a raging fucking idiot. Former is probably more likely, though, and not indicative of the latter, anyway. If only Shaka didn't have Courtney Ramey on the team. He'd be a regular Jerry Tarkanian.

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On 2/27/2021 at 3:28 PM, ztejas said:

You're adorable. Maybe one day he'll actually have 5 turnovers and you won't be such a raging fucking idiot. Former is probably more likely, though, and not indicative of the latter, anyway. If only Shaka didn't have Courtney Ramey on the team. He'd be a regular Jerry Tarkanian.

no one said anything about Shaka. I said I wasn't a fan of Ramey and thought he was WAY out of line going after Jones for one mistake. Then you rode in to white knight for Ramey.

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25 minutes ago, MotownHorn said:

no one said anything about Shaka. I said I wasn't a fan of Ramey and thought he was WAY out of line going after Jones for one mistake. Then you rode in to white knight for Ramey.

Turns out Ramey might have been right since Jones keeps losing three point shooters.

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Posted (edited)

ISU's last three games have been 10, 5, and 4 point losses to OU/Baylor/TCU. And those first two games were on the road.

Kinda shocked to see us as a 12.5 pt favorite on the road. ISU +12.5 is my stone cold lock of the day.

Edited by CurlyDumps
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Remember back when Texas hoops used to be fun?

I blame the arrival of J’Covan Brown; loved him as a player but his time coincided with the beginning of the funk we haven’t pulled out of. He’s the Jackson Jeffcoat of UT hoops....

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4 hours ago, Ignatius said:

Remember back when Texas hoops used to be fun?

I blame the arrival of J’Covan Brown; loved him as a player but his time coincided with the beginning of the funk we haven’t pulled out of. He’s the Jackson Jeffcoat of UT hoops....

Not sure why but I laugh at this

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8 hours ago, Js1 said:

http://bball.notnothing.net/big12.php?sport=mbb

Playing around, I can't get Texas any higher than the 4-seed.  Most likely spot is the 4 or 5 seed.

Because we lost the second Baylor game to COVID and Kansas played a full schedule, Texas can't pass Kansas for the 3 seed if we win out because of winning % (KU .667 (12-6) and Texas .647 (11-6)) 

There’s one way to get Texas to a 3 seed if we win our next 2 and WV loses to OK state. KU is the 2 based on winning % but Texas beats WV for the 3 seed because of our 2-0 record versus KU

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6 minutes ago, Machinator said:

Locked in a top 6 finish today in the conference, which means we get a bye next Wednesday. Win at TCU Sunday and we can feel pretty damn good about a top-4 seed in the NCAA tourney.

Likely 4-seed in the Big 12 tourney. 3 seed if we win and OSU beats the ‘Eers. 

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I still feel like this team can beat anybody - and I mean literally anybody - if they are playing well, especially on defense.

We won’t face a team as good as OU until the Sweet 16 and even then it won’t be a road game on senior night.

The Big 12 is such a beating. Every dang night it is another top 20 team with a ton of talent and a great coach.

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2 minutes ago, HookEm said:

We won’t face a team as good as OU until the Sweet 16

 

I beg to differ. We're a likely 4 seed, and OU is hanging around 5/6 territory, while a Texas Tech team that swept us is a strong 5 seed.

The only game we should feel even somewhat confident about is the first-round matchup, and again, that's if we hang onto a 4 seed.

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1 minute ago, Machinator said:

I beg to differ. We're a likely 4 seed, and OU is hanging around 5/6 territory, while a Texas Tech team that swept us is a strong 5 seed.   The only game we should feel even somewhat confident about is the first-round matchup, and again, that's if we hang onto a 4 seed.

With Shaka coaching, I just can't feel confident about any game in the NCAA Tournament...

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If the 4-seed we’d likely face OSU and then Baylor. 

If the 3-seed, it’s Tech then Kansas. 

Ugh both seem extremely difficult. OSU is hot, but we are 1-1 with a 2OT loss. We are 0-2 versus Tech. Losing to Baylor probably doesn’t hurt us, seeding wise at all. 

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